The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

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Nokra
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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Nokra » Thu May 09, 2019 5:10 pm

If Beerus says base Goku is nothing to freeza then he is right. Simple.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by ahill1 » Thu May 09, 2019 5:22 pm

Nokra wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 5:10 pm
If Beerus says base Goku is nothing to freeza then he is right. Simple.
Refer to my arguments on page 1.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Shintoki » Thu May 09, 2019 7:50 pm

Sūpāsaiya wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 12:43 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 7:55 am
ruler9871 wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 4:33 am
That's not a rebuttal. You didn't address the arguments in it.
You can’t seriously expect anyone here to watch that video. There is nothing there you can’t type yourself. Make a properly written post. And I’m afraid that person watched a low quality version of Dragon Ball Super, since Beerus never said that. After you’ve watched the movie or the respective episode in Super, come here to tell what you’ve seen.
Beerus does state this: "But if this is all you've got, defeating Freeza would probably be the best you're capable of." (He states this just before Goku turns SSj2, so after he saw what SSj Goku was could do).

The fact that he uses words like "probably" when comparing Goku to Frieza says something, he isn't quite aware of how powerful Frieza actually is. And that should also make a lot of sense, it's been a damn long time since he has seen Frieza. Earlier, SSj Goku stated he was gonna go all-out against Beerus, yet he's still only compared to that of Frieza? All-out BOG SSj Goku would destroy Frieza, but Beerus still thinks that defeating Frieza would be Goku's best, which is pretty stupid for obivous reasons. I mean, SSj Goku was superior to the SSj Trunks that one-shotted a stronger Frieza than the one on Namek, who was actually confident he could take on Namek SSj Goku. A SSj Goku in B.O.G is far stronger than Frieza, Beerus just big dumb.

that seems to be the direction, toriyama or at least, shueisha is going with. according to a V jump publication back in 2004 iirc.

1 kiri equals 50 000 battle power, goku was measured at 3000 kiri. which translate to 150M battle power, same as in namek.

this is yet implied again in Goku and the friends return OVA/manga, where Goku base-form's battle power was measured and could not overcome the scouter powerlimit (scouters going poof) till he transformed to an SS

when you add beerus comment to this, twice. in DBS and BoG. it's clear that's the direction they are going with.

Mecha freeza is a weak argument IMO, . a better argument would be how the afterlife trainings did not amp Goku base at all. since he was seen training in base. it's essentially inconsistent and begs the question of whether goku has to train in base like he did in ROF after namek.

anywho, goku base clearly amped up drastically in ROF. so does it matter?

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Shintoki » Thu May 09, 2019 8:07 pm

Desassina wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 12:34 pm
Shintoki wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 9:41 am
to contribute to this topic. If gotenks reverted back to base form inside bootenks, either boo or the others would be noticed a considerable degrade in power. we are talking about 400x degrade in power, such thing would be noticable. so the most logical conclusion is that Gotenks as an SS3 defused right there. and that piccolo is simply stronger than Goten and trunks.

bit textwally for my first post.
The problem being that defusing straight from SSJ3 Fusion into two powerless kids would have been more noticeable than into their fused base. Welcome to this board!
thanks.

looking at it from your perspective, that makes more sense. considering that if Boocolo were just goten+trunks+piccolo+super boo. then he would be barely any different from super boo, as such, an SS3 goku or Ultimate gohan would/should have noticed that more so if it were true, as boocolo would be practically just super boo with accessories. good observation!

indeed, a power degrade from defuse is far degrading than reverting to base, but either are below Piccolo!. interesting.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Koitsukai » Thu May 09, 2019 10:11 pm

Speedster wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 1:44 pm
Desassina wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 6:16 pm
They could be anywhere: Piccolo's coming out stronger than base Gotenks in Evil Boo's absorption and Babidi or Dabura's statement about their energy was without the characters using it for power.
That’s not true. Piccolo came out stronger than base Goten and base Trunks unfused, NOT stronger than base Gotenks. The whole point of Buutenks reverting to Buucolo was because the fusion time limit was reached and Gotenks split to base Goten and Base Trunks.

p-hyvo wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 3:13 am
Definitely : yakon >=base Goku >base vegeta >base gohan >= pocus>shin>piccolo >ssj goten and trunks>18>>freezer
Yakon was not stronger or even on par with Goku. Base Goku was able to kick Yakon’s ass around even with the handicap of being in the dark and not seeing Yakon. If Yakon was 800 in the Kiri scale, base Goku was definitely above that, probably at 1000. Goku only went SSJ to show off that he could generate light if he wanted to.


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Anyway, on topic. I will never buy that the base Saiyans were below Namek arc Freeza by the Buu arc.
1. Piccolo is well above Namek Freeza and Dabra considered him a weakling only worthy of spitting on him and converting him into a stone statue. Meanwhile he wanted to pick the 3 strongest fighters and he chose the Saiyans who were in their base forms and he didn't know they were capable of transformation. He was actually surprised when Goku transformed into SSJ and even more so that he was outputting 3000 kiris so it is reaching to say that he counted "that hidden power" during his selection process.
2. Base (yep, base, not SSJ in the manga) Vegeta’s blast on Cell during the Kamehameha struggle of Cell with Gohan ultimately achieved something apparently better than what Piccolo could hope of achieving if he tried.
3. Vegeta was confident he could win the tournament in base, a tournament that included Piccolo and #18.
4. Base Goku and Base Gohan were able to carry around and handle the Z sword that Kibito, a kaioshin's attendant/bodyguard (a Kaioshin who is stated to be able to defeat 100% Namek Freeza with one blast) couldn't even lift off the ground.
5. Base Vegeta took hits from kid Buu and survived.

And here is something more interesting. Let’s take a look at the Kiri meters:
(i)In chapter 444 we are shown Yamu’s meter, which has 18 calibration dots, measuring SSJ2 Gohan at 13 dots (actually a bit more like 13.2). For the record in the anime the scene is a bit different. The anime shows the needle keep rotating around but also the colour of the dots is changing from black to red with each rotation. The meter has 21 dots total and 12 dots were shown converted into red.
(ii) In chapter 451 we are shown Babidi’s highest measuring energy device measuring SSJ1 Goku’s power as 10 dots out of 12 dots which was the maximum. In the anime we are not shown the scale this time.

The interesting bit here is that if we were to assume that one dot on Babidi’s meter equates to at least one red dot (i.e. a full rotation) on Yamu’s meter then since SSJ1 Goku’s 10 dots equate to 3000 kiri it follows that one Babidi’s dot=one Yamu’s “red dot”=300kiris. Therefore since rusty SSJ2 Gohan (in the manga) was at 13-13.2 “red dots” he had an energy level of around 4000 kiri. Rusty SSJ2 Gohan (or even not SSJ2 but SSJ1.5 so likely 3500kiri Gohan) Vs Dabra was more of a draw and Dabra was said to be on par or stronger than Perfect Cell. Which goes on to show how strong Goku had become as in suppressed SSJ1 he was at least 75% of Perfect Cell’s energy level and in base he was at around 1/3 of that i.e. at 25% Perfect Cell.

In the android arc, Piccolo was stronger than Imperfect Cell before he absorbed thousands of humans and considerably weaker after that. Piccolo was as strong as 17 and Cell added 17 and 18 (who were about equal to each other) to his power. So even ignoring the power up of the “perfection”, Perfect Cell was at the very absolute minimum over 3x Piccolo. Of course you can easily factor the “perfection powerup” multiplier and make him be at least 5x Piccolo. So base Saiyans being ¼ of Perfect Cell places them at 1.25x of Android-saga Kamiccolo who is definitely above Namek Freeza by likely 3x. So mathematically base Saiyans are at least 4x Freeza.

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But hey what do all these mean, right? Super said something and according to some people on here it is the word of God. Super by the way, also had Piccolo being on par with a Zarbon level opponent and had the entire team of Piccolo, base Gohan, Roshi and Kurirn getting trashed by someone who was compared favourably against the Ginyu force. So yeah, Super is such a reliable source of power scaling that should take precedence of anything in the original manga...
I came here convinced that base saiyans were below Freeza but you clearly changed my mind.

Regarding that comment from Beerus, I don't even think Beerus knew just how strong Freeza was back then.
Freeza had no need to transform before Namek, he ruled the universe in his first form. So to Beerus, Freeza is that lazy little prick from early Namek that doesn't even care to walk, last time he was awake the highest PL was Freeza's 500k, the runner-up was less than 6 digits, aside of King Cold nobody came close, not even 40 years later.

I'll throw in my own headcanon to fill in the blanks: Freeza claimed his dad told him not to mess with Beerus or Buu, so he would never try to impress him, show off or even raise his voice around him, let alone ask for a spar like Goku did, and because Beerus never dreamt of a Super God Freeza, would have no interest to do so. I don't think Beerus ever met transformed Freeza at all, knowing about his forms wouldn't mean much, he still can't tell how strong Freeza could get.

To Beerus, every Z character from Raditz to Super Vegito are the same tier, so him precisely nitpicking who beats who is really unlikely and also unrealiable.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Shintoki » Fri May 10, 2019 6:24 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 10:11 pm
Speedster wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 1:44 pm
Desassina wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 6:16 pm
They could be anywhere: Piccolo's coming out stronger than base Gotenks in Evil Boo's absorption and Babidi or Dabura's statement about their energy was without the characters using it for power.
That’s not true. Piccolo came out stronger than base Goten and base Trunks unfused, NOT stronger than base Gotenks. The whole point of Buutenks reverting to Buucolo was because the fusion time limit was reached and Gotenks split to base Goten and Base Trunks.

p-hyvo wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 3:13 am
Definitely : yakon >=base Goku >base vegeta >base gohan >= pocus>shin>piccolo >ssj goten and trunks>18>>freezer
Yakon was not stronger or even on par with Goku. Base Goku was able to kick Yakon’s ass around even with the handicap of being in the dark and not seeing Yakon. If Yakon was 800 in the Kiri scale, base Goku was definitely above that, probably at 1000. Goku only went SSJ to show off that he could generate light if he wanted to.


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Anyway, on topic. I will never buy that the base Saiyans were below Namek arc Freeza by the Buu arc.
1. Piccolo is well above Namek Freeza and Dabra considered him a weakling only worthy of spitting on him and converting him into a stone statue. Meanwhile he wanted to pick the 3 strongest fighters and he chose the Saiyans who were in their base forms and he didn't know they were capable of transformation. He was actually surprised when Goku transformed into SSJ and even more so that he was outputting 3000 kiris so it is reaching to say that he counted "that hidden power" during his selection process.
2. Base (yep, base, not SSJ in the manga) Vegeta’s blast on Cell during the Kamehameha struggle of Cell with Gohan ultimately achieved something apparently better than what Piccolo could hope of achieving if he tried.
3. Vegeta was confident he could win the tournament in base, a tournament that included Piccolo and #18.
4. Base Goku and Base Gohan were able to carry around and handle the Z sword that Kibito, a kaioshin's attendant/bodyguard (a Kaioshin who is stated to be able to defeat 100% Namek Freeza with one blast) couldn't even lift off the ground.
5. Base Vegeta took hits from kid Buu and survived.

And here is something more interesting. Let’s take a look at the Kiri meters:
(i)In chapter 444 we are shown Yamu’s meter, which has 18 calibration dots, measuring SSJ2 Gohan at 13 dots (actually a bit more like 13.2). For the record in the anime the scene is a bit different. The anime shows the needle keep rotating around but also the colour of the dots is changing from black to red with each rotation. The meter has 21 dots total and 12 dots were shown converted into red.
(ii) In chapter 451 we are shown Babidi’s highest measuring energy device measuring SSJ1 Goku’s power as 10 dots out of 12 dots which was the maximum. In the anime we are not shown the scale this time.

The interesting bit here is that if we were to assume that one dot on Babidi’s meter equates to at least one red dot (i.e. a full rotation) on Yamu’s meter then since SSJ1 Goku’s 10 dots equate to 3000 kiri it follows that one Babidi’s dot=one Yamu’s “red dot”=300kiris. Therefore since rusty SSJ2 Gohan (in the manga) was at 13-13.2 “red dots” he had an energy level of around 4000 kiri. Rusty SSJ2 Gohan (or even not SSJ2 but SSJ1.5 so likely 3500kiri Gohan) Vs Dabra was more of a draw and Dabra was said to be on par or stronger than Perfect Cell. Which goes on to show how strong Goku had become as in suppressed SSJ1 he was at least 75% of Perfect Cell’s energy level and in base he was at around 1/3 of that i.e. at 25% Perfect Cell.

In the android arc, Piccolo was stronger than Imperfect Cell before he absorbed thousands of humans and considerably weaker after that. Piccolo was as strong as 17 and Cell added 17 and 18 (who were about equal to each other) to his power. So even ignoring the power up of the “perfection”, Perfect Cell was at the very absolute minimum over 3x Piccolo. Of course you can easily factor the “perfection powerup” multiplier and make him be at least 5x Piccolo. So base Saiyans being ¼ of Perfect Cell places them at 1.25x of Android-saga Kamiccolo who is definitely above Namek Freeza by likely 3x. So mathematically base Saiyans are at least 4x Freeza.

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But hey what do all these mean, right? Super said something and according to some people on here it is the word of God. Super by the way, also had Piccolo being on par with a Zarbon level opponent and had the entire team of Piccolo, base Gohan, Roshi and Kurirn getting trashed by someone who was compared favourably against the Ginyu force. So yeah, Super is such a reliable source of power scaling that should take precedence of anything in the original manga...
I came here convinced that base saiyans were below Freeza but you clearly changed my mind.

Regarding that comment from Beerus, I don't even think Beerus knew just how strong Freeza was back then.
Freeza had no need to transform before Namek, he ruled the universe in his first form. So to Beerus, Freeza is that lazy little prick from early Namek that doesn't even care to walk, last time he was awake the highest PL was Freeza's 500k, the runner-up was less than 6 digits, aside of King Cold nobody came close, not even 40 years later.

I'll throw in my own headcanon to fill in the blanks: Freeza claimed his dad told him not to mess with Beerus or Buu, so he would never try to impress him, show off or even raise his voice around him, let alone ask for a spar like Goku did, and because Beerus never dreamt of a Super God Freeza, would have no interest to do so. I don't think Beerus ever met transformed Freeza at all, knowing about his forms wouldn't mean much, he still can't tell how strong Freeza could get.

To Beerus, every Z character from Raditz to Super Vegito are the same tier, so him precisely nitpicking who beats who is really unlikely and also unrealiable.
You do realize Freeza base form is his final one, right?. just because he kept that a secret as/by regressive forms to most of his minions, including saiyains. doesn't mean he hided that from a being who is almost as old as the universe who would have been aware of freeza before freeza even met the saiyans.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Sūpāsaiya » Fri May 10, 2019 9:59 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 3:54 pm
ruler9871 wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 12:25 pm
You're still dodging the arguments........
Which arguments?
Sūpāsaiya wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 12:43 pm
A SSj Goku in B.O.G is far stronger than Frieza, Beerus just big dumb.
Freeza is the strongest mortal Beerus knew of besides himself and Whis. I’m not sure how exactly you got the impression Beerus meant SS Goku is a hair ahead of Freeza. Beerus just said that defeating Freeza was the best that level of power could do, since it still couldn’t give a proper fight to a God of Destruction. Anything below god level would fit that remark. Anyway, even before SS Goku attacked, Beerus already could tell Goku defeated Freeza.
Beerus still used words like "probably", implying that he is unsure of how strong Frieza actually is. He was impressed that Goku had defeated Frieza, but when he actually came to earth, he was dissapointed. He thought Frieza was a lot stronger, because of his tittle of: Emperor of the Universe and stuff.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Sūpāsaiya » Fri May 10, 2019 10:18 am

Shintoki wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 7:50 pm
Sūpāsaiya wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 12:43 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 7:55 am

You can’t seriously expect anyone here to watch that video. There is nothing there you can’t type yourself. Make a properly written post. And I’m afraid that person watched a low quality version of Dragon Ball Super, since Beerus never said that. After you’ve watched the movie or the respective episode in Super, come here to tell what you’ve seen.
Beerus does state this: "But if this is all you've got, defeating Freeza would probably be the best you're capable of." (He states this just before Goku turns SSj2, so after he saw what SSj Goku was could do).

The fact that he uses words like "probably" when comparing Goku to Frieza says something, he isn't quite aware of how powerful Frieza actually is. And that should also make a lot of sense, it's been a damn long time since he has seen Frieza. Earlier, SSj Goku stated he was gonna go all-out against Beerus, yet he's still only compared to that of Frieza? All-out BOG SSj Goku would destroy Frieza, but Beerus still thinks that defeating Frieza would be Goku's best, which is pretty stupid for obivous reasons. I mean, SSj Goku was superior to the SSj Trunks that one-shotted a stronger Frieza than the one on Namek, who was actually confident he could take on Namek SSj Goku. A SSj Goku in B.O.G is far stronger than Frieza, Beerus just big dumb.

that seems to be the direction, toriyama or at least, shueisha is going with. according to a V jump publication back in 2004 iirc.

1 kiri equals 50 000 battle power, goku was measured at 3000 kiri. which translate to 150M battle power, same as in namek.

this is yet implied again in Goku and the friends return OVA/manga, where Goku base-form's battle power was measured and could not overcome the scouter powerlimit (scouters going poof) till he transformed to an SS

when you add beerus comment to this, twice. in DBS and BoG. it's clear that's the direction they are going with.

Mecha freeza is a weak argument IMO, . a better argument would be how the afterlife trainings did not amp Goku base at all. since he was seen training in base. it's essentially inconsistent and begs the question of whether goku has to train in base like he did in ROF after namek.

anywho, goku base clearly amped up drastically in ROF. so does it matter?
Eh, I don't know about the Kiri thing. If Goku NEVER got stronger in Base after SSj, how'd he surpass SSj2 Gohan as a SSj2? (I don't really get your argument tbh, correct me if I got it wrong, lol).

In "Yo! Son Goku And Friends Return", Tarble mentions that Base Goku's power wouldn't be enough to defeat Abo and Cado, yet Trunks and Goten in Base casually slap the both of them. For obivous reasons, Trunks and Goten are not stronger than Goku. Goku was just supressing himself in Base, and then powered up to his max, THEN went SSj.

To debunk the statment of Goku's Base being weaker than Frieza, I'd just go back to my previous point. Goku was suppressed. It sounds like I'm making an excuse by always saying: "Uh-Uh, Goku was suppressed" but, that's how dragonball has always worked. Vegeta suppresses his power to be at Cui's level, then powers-up and one-shots him, Goku suppresses his power level against the Ginyu force, etc.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by ruler9871 » Fri May 10, 2019 12:18 pm

Shintoki wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 7:50 pm
snip
1. The "Yo! Son Goku And Friends Return" argument is pretty weak. Abo & Cado were both said to have surpassed Freeza, yet Goten & Kid Trunks (both of whom are weaker than Goku, Vegeta & Gohan) were able to stomp Abo & Cado in just their Base forms. This means that all of the Saiyans surpassed Z-Freeza in base.

2. If Goku and the other's base forms never changed before BoG, then there's no way Goku & Vegeta could have surpassed Cell Games Gohan (who had the strongest base of all Saiyans at the time) with just SSJ2 in the Buu Saga.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri May 10, 2019 12:53 pm

Sūpāsaiya wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 9:59 am
Beerus still used words like "probably", implying that he is unsure of how strong Frieza actually is. He was impressed that Goku had defeated Frieza, but when he actually came to earth, he was dissapointed. He thought Frieza was a lot stronger, because of his tittle of: Emperor of the Universe and stuff.
Beerus knew very well how strong Freeza was, given that he said Super Saiyan was at a greater level. The thing is, when he heard that a Saiyan defeated Freeza, he thought the Super Saiyan God of his dreams could have appeared. The only disappointment is that Goku wasn’t still the Super Saiyan God he was willing to fight.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Lionel » Fri May 10, 2019 1:22 pm

The anime and manga's rendering of the BoG recap scene of Goku's power at the beginning differs a bit. I think in the anime, Whis showed Beerus a visual replay of transformed Goku's initial fight with Freeza. If it's only a visual and the power being emitted can't be sensed, the speeds at which Goku is attacking Freeza should still be able to give Beerus an idea of how strong the form was at that time. In the midst of the replay, Whis explains that the form increases the Saiyan's power "manifold".

Goku didn't go to any lengths to contradict Beerus's assessment of his power on King Kai's. It probably doesn't mean a whole lot but you would think that if he felt confident in handling Freeza without transforming now that he would clarify to Beerus that he's improved substantially since his fight with the tyrant on Namek. It's not like their rematch on Earth in RoF where Goku was confidently boasting that he didn't feel transforming would be necessary to fight Freeza now.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Sūpāsaiya » Fri May 10, 2019 2:29 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 12:53 pm
Sūpāsaiya wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 9:59 am
Beerus still used words like "probably", implying that he is unsure of how strong Frieza actually is. He was impressed that Goku had defeated Frieza, but when he actually came to earth, he was dissapointed. He thought Frieza was a lot stronger, because of his tittle of: Emperor of the Universe and stuff.
Beerus knew very well how strong Freeza was, given that he said Super Saiyan was at a greater level. The thing is, when he heard that a Saiyan defeated Freeza, he thought the Super Saiyan God of his dreams could have appeared. The only disappointment is that Goku wasn’t still the Super Saiyan God he was willing to fight.
You've proven me wrong about my "Beerus doesn't know how strong Frieza is" argument. But I still doubt Beerus' statement, and I have some reasons to beileve so... Even Base Goten and Trunks gave A18 trouble in the world tournament. A18 was shown putting in effort against the two, even when they were handicapped in a suit. They even damaged her.
Image
Image
Image

She's even forced to use ki blasts, which they weren't even allowed to. All this just to win against Base Goten and Trunks even prior to the HTC. At least according to Kai (which is "canon" to Super), Base Goten and Trunks are actually comparable to A18.

And also, the Base Saiyans like, Goku and Vegeta are shown to be more powerful than Shin, who is obivously a lot stronger than Namek Frieza. Proof of this is when Shin wants help against Yakon/Pui Pui, yet Vegeta and Goku casually slap them.

A bunch of proof > A single statement.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Lionel » Fri May 10, 2019 3:16 pm

This was mentioned previously but the Majin fighters outside of Babidi, Buu and Vegeta didn't seem to emit a ki signature of any kind or at least one wasn't noted by any of the group, I think. If so, the Saiyans would have only had whatever anecdotal reputation given to them from word of mouth and their actual performance in combat to go off of. You had Gohan also at one point recommending that they work together to defeat Yakon without transforming.

Personally, I think Shin's cautiousness was being inspired more by the dubiety of Babidi's fighters, the concern of unnecessarily sending energy to Buu, and just the simple fact that his gruesome history with Babidi's group has made him a bit paranoid when it comes to anything with an "M" insignia on the front. With regards to actual feats, I daresay he could potentially take out the Super Saiyans using his magical and psychic abilities. Toriyama just doesn't have the best track record when it comes to writing magic oriented characters.

If the kids were comparable to #18 in base then they shouldn't have to continuously charge a ki projectile in the hopes of incapacitating her after transforming. Super Saiyan is an immense power-up from base. Why not just do a simple blindside and chop to the neck à la Beerus in his first fight with Goku? It should be simple enough to accomplish. Although I have to say that it might be taking certain allowances like #18 herself not being suppressed to some degree or her not having improved in strength at all since the Cell arc.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Koitsukai » Fri May 10, 2019 3:35 pm

Shintoki wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 6:24 am

You do realize Freeza base form is his final one, right?. just because he kept that a secret as/by regressive forms to most of his minions, including saiyains. doesn't mean he hided that from a being who is almost as old as the universe who would have been aware of freeza before freeza even met the saiyans.
I find no real reason for Freeza to display his 100% full power to Beerus, or to Beerus to ask for that or to even give a damn about it, he just orders you around, treats you like shit and leaves, I base this on Freeza's statement about how to deal with Beerus and Buu, and Beerus's personality and also Freeza's.
He sure knew hovering Freeza was just a hint of his true power(how could you absolutely rule with just 500k?), but gauge just exactly how strong he could be? and knowing who could or couldn't defeat him? just by feeling Goku's biceps while being supressed(as usual while in base since the saiyan arc)? Sorry, I'm not buying that. It appears that he high-balled Freeza's true power because he ruled the universe and no one even came close to him, and when facing the one that killed him he sees a dumb hick with a jumpsuit, which does not surprise him at all. You would expect more too from the guy that killed the Emperor.

Even so, Goku KK x20 in Namek wasn't that far from Freeza(before going full power), he managed to somewhat hurt him, so a decade later someone claiming Goku is still no match for Freeza sounds not too reliable. Beerus understand SS was what killed Freeza but BoG SS could trash Freeza with his hands tied while kicking Cell in the balls. Natural reaction would've been "oh my, that is a power that Freeza could never match" if he was actually taking into account real power levels and not sort of trolling.

There is no mention in the movie
In the anime he just felt Goku and didn't believe base Goku could beat Freeza
In the manga Beerus admits Goku could've beaten Freeza only when turning SS2.
So in all mediums, Beerus's knowledge of Freeza's power is ambiguous at best

My mind can be changed if i'm shown Beerus or Freeza discussing the time he showed him his true power, if not, I'll keep on thinking Beerus met 1st form Freeza like everybody else before Namek.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri May 10, 2019 3:45 pm

Sūpāsaiya wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 2:29 pm
Even Base Goten and Trunks gave A18 trouble in the world tournament.
The anime went a little overboard. In the manga, Trunks thought they were still at a disadvantage as Super Saiyans, because of the handicap. Then, he said there was no choice but to settle it with a long-range blast. The anime even showed that No.18 could more or less keep up with them without the suit. So, I fail to see how this is proof that the kids are stronger than Freeza without Super Saiyan.
And also, the Base Saiyans like, Goku and Vegeta are shown to be more powerful than Shin, who is obivously a lot stronger than Namek Frieza. Proof of this is when Shin wants help against Yakon/Pui Pui, yet Vegeta and Goku casually slap them.
Goku and Vegeta dropping any help against Babidi henchmen says more about their personality than about Shin’s battle power, I’m afraid. If things get dangerous they would just use Super Saiyan. I fail to see how that makes their regular state greater than Shin’s battle power.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by ahill1 » Fri May 10, 2019 5:42 pm

While Goku didn't correct Beerus in regard to this latter's assessment of his base being incapable to battle Freeza, Goku was still knowledgeable that contradicting Beerus would be a bad idea, so it could be inferred that he considered it best not to. On top of that, it's not as if Goku's the kind of person to get so pedantic on small things like that, especially when it's not as though he'd be fighting Beerus in base.

The #18 vs the kids fight in the manga is enough for me, personally. I don't think #18 was suppressed because:

- Character-wise, she has no reason to when she's in it to win.
- If assuming she was holding back due to thinking Mighty Mask was a normal human, she's immediately proven wrong and the idea her full power is far above his league would bring up the obvious question of why did she not simply put forth enough power to KO them?
- Trunks makes it apparent how restrictive the costume is so no matter how you cut it, he was unable to fight to the best of his ability.

Not to mention other tibits of evidence, like Kaioshin being afraid of Yakon (something backed up by the Daizenshuu), the same Yakon which Goku could put up a resistance while in base. And unlikely Pui Pui, Kaioshin knew Yakon and recognised him at first glance.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Lionel » Fri May 10, 2019 7:37 pm

Goku has never been too keen on proper etiquette -- the fact he challenged Beerus to a match in the first place was already defying perceived standards which King Kai was having to constantly correct him on. Something like a basic admittance of his power having grown enough to where he could handle Freeza in base wouldn't be inappropriate or unwarranted since Beerus brought the subject up in the first place.

#18 isn't above intentionally underperforming when she wants to. Her fight with Vegeta in the Android arc demonstrated a willingness to indulge her enemies and make inquiries about them if they've caught her attention. She was interested in winning the prize money but the strangeness of her opponent and their unnatural strength seemed to pique her curiosity. What's more, she can't sense energy like the Z-fighters or #16 are able to. What's also worth noting is that the kids neglected to emit an aura which is indicative of being more "serious" in combat until after they transformed. Restrictive costume or not, if they still had power in reserve then they could have tapped into it. Transforming would have been unnecessary, much less using a projectile as the multiplier alone would create a gulf in strength where #18 should be standing still from the perspectives of the kids.

Was Shin afraid of Yakon's power or his reputation? In the manga, he characterises Yakon as being a magical beast. Magic has been known to represent an unknown element that can take even the stronger by surprise. His ability to consume the light from energy posed a dilemma that prompted Goku to surpass normal Super Saiyan and overload Yakon. To be able to render a Saiyan without his transformation isn't exactly something to scoff at.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by ZombieVito » Sat May 11, 2019 12:59 am

It baffles me this is still being discussed. We have a clear cut statement with no rebuttal on the scene itself.

No base Saiyan on the Boo arc is defeating Freeza outside of Vegetto.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by theherodjl » Sat May 11, 2019 1:21 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 12:59 am
It baffles me this is still being discussed. We have a clear cut statement with no rebuttal on the scene itself.

No base Saiyan on the Boo arc is defeating Freeza outside of Vegetto.
Don't forget about Gotenks.
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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Sūpāsaiya » Sat May 11, 2019 1:58 am

ahill1 wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 5:42 pm
While Goku didn't correct Beerus in regard to this latter's assessment of his base being incapable to battle Freeza, Goku was still knowledgeable that contradicting Beerus would be a bad idea, so it could be inferred that he considered it best not to. On top of that, it's not as if Goku's the kind of person to get so pedantic on small things like that, especially when it's not as though he'd be fighting Beerus in base.

The #18 vs the kids fight in the manga is enough for me, personally. I don't think #18 was suppressed because:

- Character-wise, she has no reason to when she's in it to win.
- If assuming she was holding back due to thinking Mighty Mask was a normal human, she's immediately proven wrong and the idea her full power is far above his league would bring up the obvious question of why did she not simply put forth enough power to KO them?
- Trunks makes it apparent how restrictive the costume is so no matter how you cut it, he was unable to fight to the best of his ability.

Not to mention other tibits of evidence, like Kaioshin being afraid of Yakon (something backed up by the Daizenshuu), the same Yakon which Goku could put up a resistance while in base. And unlikely Pui Pui, Kaioshin knew Yakon and recognised him at first glance.
Goten (Start of Boo Saga) = Gohan (Start of Boo Saga) too, if you use the Daizenshuu (Not saying it's a fact, but still)...

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