Unpopular DB opinions

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Melee_Sovereign
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Sat May 25, 2019 6:38 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 2:57 pm

All of this is to prove your point that the MCU's success by targeting mainstream audiences is not a negative nor easy. It's well earned. There's nothing cynical about it, despite your claim to the contrary.
My claim is based on my natural impression of the films when I watch them. I'm always under the natural impression that these films mostly exist to draw in revenue (and I've given you reasons why I think this). That is what rubbed you the wrong way, and quite frankly, that is your problem that someone else holds a viewpoint that you don't like. It certainly doesn't rub me the wrong way that you do feel more personally connected to the films. Honestly, more power to you.

Pointing out that DB does it is irrelevant to me, because I get enough of a natural impression from it that it's genuine. Admittingly, I get less of this impression from DBS than I do from Z or classic Dragon Ball, but I get more of an impression from DBS than I do the MCU (that probably hit you hard). I do think MCU is genuine to a degree, but like I said, this is a comparison. I think it's comparatively less genuine. Again, my natural impression when I watch these films. I much less don't care what actually goes on behind the scenes.

Your negative viewpoints of Frieza turning into a recurring villain, or the new Broly, don't rub me the wrong way at all. I really do not even care in the slightest what you think, and I mean that in the least condescending way. What you think is what you think, regardless if you have a reason that you can put into words or not, and regardless of whether you frame it as an opinion or as a fact. You can spew how you factually think DBS, Broly and Frieza is terrible without explaining objectively why, and I couldn't give a rat's behind. And it's actually because I respect your viewpoint and see it as valid. I don't need you to explain to me why you think what you think.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sat May 25, 2019 6:44 pm

Close but no cigar. It's not whether the MCU specifically is designed to bring in revenue (all films are), it's the idea that designing any movie or TV series to bring in money is somehow wrong. I'm happy you respect my viewpoint, but please show me the courtesy of listening and understanding me. I did the same for you. I got that you think that the MCU is pretentious for putting messages in their movies. This has never actually been about the MCU specifically. It doesn't matter to me how you view the movies. What this has been about is the principle of whether art should attempt to capture a wide audience. It's a variation of the "commercial art is lowbrow" argument, which is what I find pretentious.
whether you frame it as an opinion or as a fact. You can spew how you factually think DBS, Broly and Frieza is terrible without explaining objectively why, and I couldn't give a rat's behind
You are attempting to use my arguments against me and still manage to get them wrong. This really has proven fruitless.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Sat May 25, 2019 7:00 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 6:44 pm
Close but no cigar. It's not whether the MCU specifically is designed to bring in revenue (all films are), it's the idea that designing any movie or TV series to bring in money is somehow wrong.
At the end of the day, this is about what I get out of the films when I watch them. When I watch DB, I feel a genuine connection. When I watch MCU I feel like they're just trying to sell a fun to watch movie (still also feel some connection, just much less than DB).

Why is it wrong? I think I said this before, but it's potentially wrong if it can result in audience members getting the aforementioned impression out of it. I'm at least one audience member, and I got that impression out of it. Yes, I know I'm only one person, but I never tried to speak for other people. Though I do know other people who have shared my viewpoint.

As for the argument that all films do this. Eh.. that's not so simple. Yes, professional film makers do what they do as a living. That's a given. But there is a certain line that can be crossed. There's doing things for money, and then there's compromising quality for money, or doing something generic or contrived for money.

I know a perfect example of the former. I don't know if you've seen this show, but it's called Master of None. It's a Netflix original, and I believe it's the highest rated or second highest rated Netflix original (100% approval on Rotten Tomato). The show only has two seasons, and the producers and publishers are open to a third season, but the writer said he doesn't want to write a third season simply because he doesn't have the right idea for it. He could easily make a third season for the sake of money (and probably still make the show decent), but he cares too much about the quality. Obviously when he made the first two seasons, he expected to be paid, so yeah, he made the show for money, but that wasn't the primary reason (btw, if you've seen this show, don't spoil it, because I'm only on ep.6. But I read about the production behind it).

Toriyama initially stopped DB for a similar reason, even though he could have made more money off it. It shows that he still very much personally cares for the series.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Nightbane » Mon May 27, 2019 4:57 pm

I like Super FAR more than Z, like it's not even close to me. Super brought back the humor and gags that were solely missing from Z (seriously, no idea why Toriyama thought it would b a good idea to remove most of the gags and make it super dark and serious) and made everything much more grand. I honestly don't see how anyone prefers Z over Super except for Nostalgia, since it's just Z but with humor and actual color to it.

I been in the fandom for about 20 years so it's not like I'm a new age fan who just prefers the newest thing, I seriously do think Super is MUCH better than Z.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon May 27, 2019 5:16 pm

Nightbane wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 4:57 pm
Super brought back the humor and gags that were solely missing from Z (seriously, no idea why Toriyama thought it would b a good idea to remove most of the gags and make it super dark and serious)
Super Sentai parody Ginyu Force?

Mr.Satan existing?

The Great Saiyaman?

Fat Buu

Buu turning people into candy?

The whole execution of the fusion dance?

Gotenks attacks names (i.e Galactic donut, buu buu volleyball)


I’m at a loss for why you think Z was super dark and serious. It was no more dark and serious than the Tenshinhan arc in Dragon Ball onwards.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by WittyUsername » Mon May 27, 2019 7:36 pm

Here’s an opinion that I know for a fact would’ve been unpopular four years ago, and one that I assume is still fairly unpopular today: I’m tired of Beerus and Whis. When they were first introduced in BoG, I, like most fans, thought they were fun and quirky characters who added something new to the franchise. At this point, though, they’re just played out. I’m tired of the same old gag about how much they love food, or how cranky Beerus is.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MyVisionity » Mon May 27, 2019 8:16 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 5:16 pm
Nightbane wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 4:57 pm
Super brought back the humor and gags that were solely missing from Z (seriously, no idea why Toriyama thought it would b a good idea to remove most of the gags and make it super dark and serious)
Super Sentai parody Ginyu Force?

Mr.Satan existing?

The Great Saiyaman?

Fat Buu

Buu turning people into candy?

The whole execution of the fusion dance?

Gotenks attacks names (i.e Galactic donut, buu buu volleyball)


I’m at a loss for why you think Z was super dark and serious. It was no more dark and serious than the Tenshinhan arc in Dragon Ball onwards.
Most of what you mentioned comes from the Majin Boo saga, which was deliberately sillier and lighter than the preceding arcs. And even the Boo arc managed to maintain the dark and serious tone of the Z-era.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon May 27, 2019 8:30 pm

MyVisionity wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 8:16 pm
MasenkoHA wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 5:16 pm
Nightbane wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 4:57 pm
Super brought back the humor and gags that were solely missing from Z (seriously, no idea why Toriyama thought it would b a good idea to remove most of the gags and make it super dark and serious)
Super Sentai parody Ginyu Force?

Mr.Satan existing?

The Great Saiyaman?

Fat Buu

Buu turning people into candy?

The whole execution of the fusion dance?

Gotenks attacks names (i.e Galactic donut, buu buu volleyball)


I’m at a loss for why you think Z was super dark and serious. It was no more dark and serious than the Tenshinhan arc in Dragon Ball onwards.
Most of what you mentioned comes from the Majin Boo saga, which was deliberately sillier and lighter than the preceding arcs. And even the Boo arc managed to maintain the dark and serious tone of the Z-era.

Lmao dark and serious. Right.

The whole concept of Goku training with a fat grandfatherly blue god that likes dad jokes is dark and serious.

Goku finding out he’s a carrot and his brother is a radish and they come from planet vegetable is dark and serious

The elite fighters of space hitler are a parody of Super Sentai is dark and serious

The evil scurry cyborgs that Toriyama originally intended to be the pair that killed the Z warriors were a fat china doll and an old geezer. Dark and serious.


The “perfect” fighter decides the fate of the world depends on a broadcasted vanity tournament is dark and serious.

Mr.Satan is dark and serious.


Pre-Buu Z is not dark and serious. Certainly, no more dark and serious than anything after the 21st strongest under the heavens tournament arc in classic Dragon Ball

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Jackalope89 » Mon May 27, 2019 8:44 pm

Dragon Ball Super 2 (or whatever its called) needs "The Further Adventures of the Great Saiya-Family!" as the helmeted do-gooder battles the nefarious Dancing Para-Para Bros.!

Even if its just a one off episode, I would LOVE something like that, as the Great Saiyaman mini-arc was probably my overall favorite simply for the ridiculousness of it all.

And yes, it was cheesy as HFIL, but I loved it.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Dbzfan94 » Mon May 27, 2019 9:46 pm

Jackalope89 wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 8:44 pm
Dragon Ball Super 2 (or whatever its called) needs "The Further Adventures of the Great Saiya-Family!" as the helmeted do-gooder battles the nefarious Dancing Para-Para Bros.!

Even if its just a one off episode, I would LOVE something like that, as the Great Saiyaman mini-arc was probably my overall favorite simply for the ridiculousness of it all.

And yes, it was cheesy as HFIL, but I loved it.
Absolutely. I would love to see an older Pan being Great Saiyaman 3 with her parents

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Tue May 28, 2019 1:22 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 8:30 pm

Lmao dark and serious. Right.
I would agree that Z is comparatively more dark and serious than Super. But I like dark and serious, so it's a plus for me. That said, Super does have things over Z, but I'm not sure it's enough to say it's overall better.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue May 28, 2019 1:41 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 1:22 pm
MasenkoHA wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 8:30 pm

Lmao dark and serious. Right.
I would agree that Z is comparatively more dark and serious than Super. But I like dark and serious, so it's a plus for me. That said, Super does have things over Z, but I'm not sure it's enough to say it's overall better.
Digimon is comparatively more dark and serious than Pokemon. It doesn’t make Digimon dark and serious.

Is the Saiyajin-Cell arc comparatively more dark and serious than the Pilaf and Kame Senenin arcs? Sure. It is dark and serious? No.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Tue May 28, 2019 3:00 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 8:30 pm
Digimon is comparatively more dark and serious than Pokemon. It doesn’t make Digimon dark and serious.

Is the Saiyajin-Cell arc comparatively more dark and serious than the Pilaf and Kame Senenin arcs? Sure. It is dark and serious? No.
The series didn't become an inherently dark series, but it's what Empire was to Star Wars. DB did go through a more serious and earnest period that still feels consistent with what came before.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Tue May 28, 2019 5:24 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 1:41 pm
Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 1:22 pm
MasenkoHA wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 8:30 pm

Lmao dark and serious. Right.
I would agree that Z is comparatively more dark and serious than Super. But I like dark and serious, so it's a plus for me. That said, Super does have things over Z, but I'm not sure it's enough to say it's overall better.
Digimon is comparatively more dark and serious than Pokemon. It doesn’t make Digimon dark and serious.

Is the Saiyajin-Cell arc comparatively more dark and serious than the Pilaf and Kame Senenin arcs? Sure. It is dark and serious? No.
I dunno, I feel like certain parts of DBZ are pretty damn dark. There's obviously darker shows out there, but I'd still say DBZ has its moments. Mainly the later parts of the Frieza arc, and a good portion of the Cell arc (mainly when he was absorbing people, especially the imagery that was used). Super has its moments too, like the Zamasu arc, and parts of the ToP. I actually would go as far as to say as the Zamasu arc is arguably darker than anything in DBZ. Emphasis on "arguably" as DBZ's dark moments still edge out the Zamasu arc when it comes to imagery, despite how cataclysmic Zamasu was.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue May 28, 2019 6:09 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 5:24 pm
MasenkoHA wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 1:41 pm
Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 1:22 pm


I would agree that Z is comparatively more dark and serious than Super. But I like dark and serious, so it's a plus for me. That said, Super does have things over Z, but I'm not sure it's enough to say it's overall better.
Digimon is comparatively more dark and serious than Pokemon. It doesn’t make Digimon dark and serious.

Is the Saiyajin-Cell arc comparatively more dark and serious than the Pilaf and Kame Senenin arcs? Sure. It is dark and serious? No.
I dunno, I feel like certain parts of DBZ are pretty damn dark. There's obviously darker shows out there, but I'd still say DBZ has its moments. Mainly the later parts of the Frieza arc, and a good portion of the Cell arc (mainly when he was absorbing people, especially the imagery that was used). Super has its moments too, like the Zamasu arc, and parts of the ToP. I actually would go as far as to say as the Zamasu arc is arguably darker than anything in DBZ. Emphasis on "arguably" as DBZ's dark moments still edge out the Zamasu arc when it comes to imagery, despite how cataclysmic Zamasu was.
It’s not that DBZ doesn’t have its dark moments, it’s that trying to pass DBZ off as a dark and serious show on the whole is just plain wrong.

There’s plenty of dark moments in Dragon Ball Classic too (namely the Piccolo Daimou arc) but we’re, hopefully, not about to call it dark and serious.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Tue May 28, 2019 6:12 pm

It's more than moments. Overall the show isn't dark, but there are dark periods.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Tue May 28, 2019 9:52 pm

I dunno, I think I'd still say that the Dragon Ball franchise as a whole, can pass for at least fairly dark and serious. The goofy comedy aspect of it actually adds more contrast.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Tue May 28, 2019 9:54 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 9:52 pm
I dunno, I think I'd still say that the Dragon Ball franchise as a whole, can pass for at least fairly dark and serious. The goofy comedy aspect of it actually adds more contrast.
Poop on a stick. SMILING poop on a stick.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Happiness is climate, not weather.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Tue May 28, 2019 9:57 pm

What does that mean?

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Tue May 28, 2019 9:58 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 9:57 pm
What does that mean?
How dark can the series be if it has smiling poop on a stick? There are darker arcs, but overall, it's still a light and upbeat story.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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