Can we consider Piccolo Daimao and Piccolo Jr the same person?

[MasenkoHA]

or he is thinking of the FUNi DB dub where Chris Sabat voiced both of them even though the performances aren't exactly the same.

Yep. For King Piccolo Sabat uses his hobo smokers rasp he used for the Namek and Android saga but slightly more “evil” . For Piccolo Jr he used the voice he started using around the Buu saga.

[Michsi]

My answer will always be the same : I consider them as separate individuals and I think the story leans towards that as well.

[ABED]

My answer will always be the same : I consider them as separate individuals and I think the story leans towards that as well.

It's both and the story leans on both. He's father AND son. It's a trinity deal.

[Gokitalo]

Hmm, I'm curious... when Goku says that Piccolo Daimao's essence was transferred into Piccolo Jr., can we take that to mean Daimao's soul? "Essence" is somewhat vague, so I'm curious if the term used in the original Japanese dialogue can also be interpreted as "soul," or if it's similarly open to interpretation.

[MyVisionity]

Hmm, I'm curious... when Goku says that Piccolo Daimao's essence was transferred into Piccolo Jr., can we take that to mean Daimao's soul? "Essence" is somewhat vague, so I'm curious if the term used in the original Japanese dialogue can also be interpreted as "soul," or if it's similarly open to interpretation.

Unless I'm mistaken, the whole "essence" thing was only used in the English dub. The original Japanese refers to Daimao having created a bunshin, a term which can mean anything from simply a person's offspring to a person's double or clone.

I believe Goku explains it at the tournament as Daimao having poured almost all of himself into this bunshin, and that Ma-Junior was basically Daimao reincarnated.

[Grimlock]

As I said before and you ignored because you have no arguments to refute it,

Oh, my dear, don't jump into conclusion and come off as condescending. You took a while to respond me and when I posted mine I hadn't seen yours as I was responding you and someone else. Anyway, you are halfway wrong at any rate. Because all you have are statements. But guess what? There are statements in my favor too:

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As you can see, there are multiple occasions where it's clear Piccolo Daimaoh and Piccolo aren't the same individuals. Now, if Piccolo Daimaoh was Piccolo, why is Piccolo referring him as "father"? Why Kami himself makes a distinguish? I'm also using your precious "statements" as my arguments. Cool, huh?

[KBABZ]

Spoiler:

The above conversation suggests that Piccolo was already beginning to veer away from Daimou's sociopathic megalomania before he allied with Goku during the Saiyan arc. As far back as the 23rd tournament is what it sounds like to me when Piccolo started to change.

Truthfully, I'm not sure how he was different as we didn't see much of Piccolo Jr at the time outside of the tournament setting. Was it his willingness to acknowledge and use the institutions that humanity had set in place with the tournament that gave Goku this impression? When Piccolo Daimou was in the midst of vying for global domination he just seized the throne after regaining his youth. Piccolo Jr went through the motions of signing up for a human proctored tournament and he even did what he could to abide by its rules and regulations up until Goku forced him into a corner. You could argue that it demonstrates more discretion on his part with an ability to respect man-made procedures, even when he's not at the helm of them like his father was during his brief reign as king.

I personally think Goku noted both Jr.'s botheration with the Tournament rigamarole in addition to leaving him alone for seven whole years. Daimao would have regained his strength and re strategized, but as we know Jr. did nothing of the sort and only developed one new move that, let's be honest, can only really work as either a stealth move or if Goku is unable to move, at least as far as Jr. had taken the ability by the time Raditz arrived.

Funny how you're deflecting all the point because you have no arguments to refute it

I could say the same for you bud, you've provided no counter-argument for my examples of Jr. self-identifying or being described as the son of Daimao.

Hmm, I'm curious... when Goku says that Piccolo Daimao's essence was transferred into Piccolo Jr., can we take that to mean Daimao's soul? "Essence" is somewhat vague, so I'm curious if the term used in the original Japanese dialogue can also be interpreted as "soul," or if it's similarly open to interpretation.

Honestly the whole thing is very vague, which is on-par for the mysticism involved with the Demon clan specifically. I'm honestly waiting for Kunzait to show up and put us all in our place on this one.

That's not at all how I interpreted this scene. For me, that meant that "oh hey that evil you thought you took care of? IT'S BACK THROUGH THIS GUY". It's kinda helped by the fact that both characters have identical VO in both English and Japanese. At the end of the day, for me that shot represented legacy, not Round 2.

Not to be pedantic, but the bold is not true. In the Japanese version, Piccolo Daimao is voiced by Takeshi Aono while Piccolo Jr. is voiced by Toshio Furukawa.

Not sure if he's confused over that specific part as pictured there where Jr's voice fades into King Piccolo's own briefly in a kind of symbolic meaning of "You may have killed me, but my offspring shall finish what i started", or he is thinking of the FUNi DB dub where Chris Sabat voiced both of them even though the performances aren't exactly the same.

PemiumSalt is correct, I assumed that in Japan he doesn't share the same voice actor. Interesting they have different ones!

Personally, I think Sabat's King Piccolo voice works well for that character, but re-using it for Jr. when dubbing Dragon Ball for me doesn't work quite so well because (as might be obvious by this point) I don't consider them the same character. As well, the use of the "Buu voice" only really applies for the Kai redub, which works really well for that character.

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Just for clarity's sake I looked up the ViZ translation, and Jr. also uses "my father" there too, despite slightly different wording.

[MyVisionity]

I've always thought this line from the 23rd Budoukai sums it up fairly well: "Piccolo Daimao will avenge Piccolo Daimao".

He's both the father and son at the same time, whether literally or figuratively.

[KBABZ]

I've always thought this line from the 23rd Budoukai sums it up fairly well: "Piccolo Daimao will avenge Piccolo Daimao".

When was that said again?

[jjgp1112]

I've always thought this line from the 23rd Budoukai sums it up fairly well: "Piccolo Daimao will avenge Piccolo Daimao".

When was that said again?

Piccolo said it himself I believe, somehwere in the downswing of the battle. I think right before he was about to fire the killshot on Goku when he broke his legs.

[MyVisionity]

I've always thought this line from the 23rd Budoukai sums it up fairly well: "Piccolo Daimao will avenge Piccolo Daimao".

When was that said again?

After Piccolo blasts Goku through the shoulder, and just before he stomps on the wound.

[KBABZ]

I've always thought this line from the 23rd Budoukai sums it up fairly well: "Piccolo Daimao will avenge Piccolo Daimao".

When was that said again?

Piccolo said it himself I believe, somehwere in the downswing of the battle. I think right before he was about to fire the killshot on Goku when he broke his legs.

Correct! Looked it up, it's after Goku gets shot in the shoulder. Jr. says

"The death of the great Demond King Piccolo... by the great Demon King Piccolo is avenged!!!!"

Which doesn't make a lick of sense to be perfectly honest, the way he says it.

[PremiumSalt]

When was that said again?

Piccolo said it himself I believe, somehwere in the downswing of the battle. I think right before he was about to fire the killshot on Goku when he broke his legs.

Correct! Looked it up, it's after Goku gets shot in the shoulder. Jr. says

"The death of the great Demond King Piccolo... by the great Demon King Piccolo is avenged!!!!"

Which doesn't make a lick of sense to be perfectly honest, the way he says it.

Out of curiosity, where did you pull that line from? Because that is one bizzare translation of a relatively straightforward line

[Michsi]

My answer will always be the same : I consider them as separate individuals and I think the story leans towards that as well.

It's both and the story leans on both. He's father AND son. It's a trinity deal.

We've had this discussion before and I stand by what I said back then. The whole trinity thing doesn't convince me.

And about that panel where Piccolo says "the Demon King's death is avenged by the Demon King" doesn't work IMO as Demon King is more like a title and Piccolo Jr. IS the Demon King.

[MyVisionity]

And about that panel where Piccolo says "the Demon King's death is avenged by the Demon King" doesn't work IMO as Demon King is more like a title and Piccolo Jr. IS the Demon King.

He doesn't just say "Demon King". He says "Demon King Piccolo". He's referring to himself as Piccolo both times.

It should also be noted that "Ma Junior" is only an alias that Piccolo used to enter the tournament. He refers to himself as Piccolo-daimao. "Piccolo Junior" is a name that FUNimation created as a title for that saga.

[KBABZ]

Piccolo said it himself I believe, somehwere in the downswing of the battle. I think right before he was about to fire the killshot on Goku when he broke his legs.

Correct! Looked it up, it's after Goku gets shot in the shoulder. Jr. says

"The death of the great Demon King Piccolo... by the great Demon King Piccolo is avenged!!!!"

Which doesn't make a lick of sense to be perfectly honest, the way he says it.

Out of curiosity, where did you pull that line from? Because that is one bizzare translation of a relatively straightforward line

The ViZ translation, specifically the one available from Amazon.

[ABED]

My answer will always be the same : I consider them as separate individuals and I think the story leans towards that as well.

It's both and the story leans on both. He's father AND son. It's a trinity deal.

We've had this discussion before and I stand by what I said back then. The whole trinity thing doesn't convince me.

And about that panel where Piccolo says "the Demon King's death is avenged by the Demon King" doesn't work IMO as Demon King is more like a title and Piccolo Jr. IS the Demon King.

Then you're just denying the evidence. He is talked about both as the same person and separate beings.

[Michsi]

It's both and the story leans on both. He's father AND son. It's a trinity deal.

We've had this discussion before and I stand by what I said back then. The whole trinity thing doesn't convince me.

And about that panel where Piccolo says "the Demon King's death is avenged by the Demon King" doesn't work IMO as Demon King is more like a title and Piccolo Jr. IS the Demon King.

Then you're just denying the evidence. He is talked about both as the same person and separate beings.

Denying what? I said clearly that I believe the story leans towards one version, not that it evidently is one way or the other. I am very aware that there are scenes which favor the other interpretation, but over all I think one is more prevalent than the other and it's the interpretation I prefer.

And about that panel where Piccolo says "the Demon King's death is avenged by the Demon King" doesn't work IMO as Demon King is more like a title and Piccolo Jr. IS the Demon King.

He doesn't just say "Demon King". He says "Demon King Piccolo". He's referring to himself as Piccolo both times.

It should also be noted that "Ma Junior" is only an alias that Piccolo used to enter the tournament. He refers to himself as Piccolo-daimao. "Piccolo Junior" is a name that FUNimation created as a title for that saga.

Same thing, though. Piccolo IS his name as well, after all. He's inherited both his father's title and his name. I'm well aware of the symbolism, but that quote in and of itself isn't the most concrete evidence that he and his father are the same individual.


Again, King Piccolo maintains his life and consciousness a few seconds before he blows up and the last thing he says are "avenge your father's death my son. " That is the initial manner in which the story handles the relation between them and that is what stuck with me the most. The last time the original demon king is brought up is right before Piccolo Jr. and Kami fuse and Kami makes a clear the distinction between them as separate individuals. These are things that , for me, weigh more than the others.

[Piccolo_Daima]

As I said before and you ignored because you have no arguments to refute it,

Oh, my dear, don't jump into conclusion and come off as condescending. You took a while to respond me and when I posted mine I hadn't seen yours as I was responding you and someone else. Anyway, you are halfway wrong at any rate. Because all you have are statements. But guess what? There are statements in my favor too:


As you can see, there are multiple occasions where it's clear Piccolo Daimaoh and Piccolo aren't the same individuals. Now, if Piccolo Daimaoh was Piccolo, why is Piccolo referring him as "father"? Why Kami himself makes a distinguish? I'm also using your precious "statements" as my arguments. Cool, huh?

As you can see here, Piccolo says" This time I will kill you, I'm not a the same level I was three years ago"


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So it's clear, they're the same being, Piccolo Jr refers to Daimao as himself

[Michsi]

As I said before and you ignored because you have no arguments to refute it,

Oh, my dear, don't jump into conclusion and come off as condescending. You took a while to respond me and when I posted mine I hadn't seen yours as I was responding you and someone else. Anyway, you are halfway wrong at any rate. Because all you have are statements. But guess what? There are statements in my favor too:


As you can see, there are multiple occasions where it's clear Piccolo Daimaoh and Piccolo aren't the same individuals. Now, if Piccolo Daimaoh was Piccolo, why is Piccolo referring him as "father"? Why Kami himself makes a distinguish? I'm also using your precious "statements" as my arguments. Cool, huh?

As you can see here, Piccolo says" This time I will kill you, I'm not a the same level I was three years ago"


*snip*

So it's clear, they're the same being, Piccolo Jr refers to Daimao as himself

The Viz translation I have of that same scene is "The Demon King you are about to fight cannot be compared to the one you defeated three years ago" . There is no "I" in this one, but I curious how this was handled in the original.