The FUNimation Dub's "Story" Changes

[Raki]

Dragonball Z was bound to be a hit, so why change such important elements? They didn't do it for any of their other dubs.

You're speaking from a completely biased stand-point. You can't say it'd be a hit if left untouched. Especially back in the day it was brought over. Anime was 100% niche market back then, the cloestest thing to main stream it had gotten was Pokemon. FUNi was a new company, they needed to make sure it would sell, not cross their fingers and hope that something that was big else where would be so here with the finicky American public.

These days original sells. But ten years ago? Ten years ago releasing the original was like playing Russian Roulette with your finances. Better to release a modified product cattered more toward the average crowd than risk something that the average crowd might not like.

How is it biased to say that? DBZ did well in almost every market on the globe with very little to no alterations. The show did not need to be changed, and it had the raw action appeal to be a hit. Hell, I dare say DBZ made Cartoon Network what it is today.

[Super Sonic]

Dragonball Z was bound to be a hit, so why change such important elements? They didn't do it for any of their other dubs.

You're speaking from a completely biased stand-point. You can't say it'd be a hit if left untouched. Especially back in the day it was brought over. Anime was 100% niche market back then, the cloestest thing to main stream it had gotten was Pokemon. FUNi was a new company, they needed to make sure it would sell, not cross their fingers and hope that something that was big else where would be so here with the finicky American public.

These days original sells. But ten years ago? Ten years ago releasing the original was like playing Russian Roulette with your finances. Better to release a modified product cattered more toward the average crowd than risk something that the average crowd might not like.

How is it biased to say that? DBZ did well in almost every market on the globe with very little to no alterations. The show did not need to be changed, and it had the raw action appeal to be a hit. Hell, I dare say DBZ made Cartoon Network what it is today.

Things work differently other places, hence why they change American cartoons in said other places.

But what Xyexs said is true. See, from the time of Astro Boy until late-90s/early 200s, the thought was, "More Japanese, less American kids will like it." People judge by nowadays' standards too often.

[jjgp1112]

All I know is that when I watch the dub, I don't give a fuck about how accurate the dialogue is or if they keep the mythological elements intact. I just enjoy the shit for what it its without being overanalytical. I'm only over-analytical when watching Wrestling, a staged sport, but not DBZ, a regular TV show. And besides, wasn't DBZ's dub considered good compared to other dubs during the time? Other dubs would completely change the names instead of making minor alterations like Funi did and make the storylines almost completely different.

[Adamant]

Things work differently other places, hence why they change American cartoons in said other places.

Other than name changes to make the names easier to understand/remember for the kids and some minor rewrites of jokes that only work in English, that's really not the case. The US is infamous for changing foreign movies and TV shows to make them more "appropriate".

[Ultimate DBZ]

This false info is all from the Ocean Dub Group. FUNimation had none of the following inconsistenseis. (Pardon my spelling.) Especially the part w/ Docter Gero being the mastermind of Red Ribbon. FUNimation (Unlike Ocean Group) realesed the entire Dragonball series from episode 14 UNCUT in english and it was compleatly accurate. They even included a japanese version for all fans like you. And, FUNimation also payed for the Ocean Group screw-ups by realesing "DBZ - The Ultimate Uncut Special Edition." This was basicly the part of DBZ done by the Ocean Group in the states, with FUNimation's voice actors given a new GREAT music, stunning 5.1, and was actually like the manga. Don'y complain about FUNimation's version, besdies the Freeza saga. But yet, everyone complains again & again about how bad FUNimation is. You think Ocean Group is better? You honestly thing you'd enjoy Dragonball more w/ the Ocean Group or VIZ media in charge? I konw I wouldn't. If anyone disagrees w/ me, then speak now.

[SonEric84]

UltimateDBZ, you realize that Funimation also screwed up and said that about Dr. Gero....?

[jjgp1112]

You're wrong. It was Funi's fault for The Gero goof. They were seperate from the Saban at that point, so they didn't have any one influencing their scripts and didn't have to do the script change at all. When Funi did the UUC's they essentially kept the original scripts from the edited version except they added swearing and only got rid of the really ridiculous shit, like the stuff about parachutes, Tien groing his arm back, Goku's father being a scientist, the next dimension, and others. Hell, Dragon Ball stopped being accurate after the Tournament saga. While they were basically forced to correct the error about Dr. Gero being the leader instead of Commander Red, Tao was still a General rather than a hired assassin. Even though I like the dub, I know it's shortcomings and know that you're a misinformd idiot.

[Xyex]

This false info is all from the Ocean Dub Group. FUNimation had none of the following inconsistenseis. (Pardon my spelling.) Especially the part w/ Docter Gero being the mastermind of Red Ribbon. FUNimation (Unlike Ocean Group) realesed the entire Dragonball series from episode 14 UNCUT in english and it was compleatly accurate. They even included a japanese version for all fans like you. And, FUNimation also payed for the Ocean Group screw-ups by realesing "DBZ - The Ultimate Uncut Special Edition." This was basicly the part of DBZ done by the Ocean Group in the states, with FUNimation's voice actors given a new GREAT music, stunning 5.1, and was actually like the manga. Don'y complain about FUNimation's version, besdies the Freeza saga. But yet, everyone complains again & again about how bad FUNimation is. You think Ocean Group is better? You honestly thing you'd enjoy Dragonball more w/ the Ocean Group or VIZ media in charge? I konw I wouldn't. If anyone disagrees w/ me, then speak now.

....

FUNimation was in charge from the start. Those "Ocean Group" episodes were done by FUNimation when the outsourced their voice talent. They didn't have any in house voices yet at the time. They also outsourced to Pioneer for distribution and Saban handled syndication. The early content edits were Saban's doing, dialogue changes were FUNi's on decisions.

Hell, even the Ocean dub of everything season 3 and beyond is still technically FUNi as the Ocean group used FUNimation's scripts still.

[Captain Awesome]

As Xyex said, the Ocean group were never "in charge" they're just a dubbing studio.

And I would love to see Dragonball handled by a different company, because I'm pretty sure VIZ wouldn't crop and blur the fuck out of the show and call it "re-mastering"

Funimation has, and always will be a perpetual fuck up machine when it comes to DBZ.

[Sebastian (SB)]

Make no mistake, it's Toriyama's talent, and Toriyama's talent alone that sells DBZ to such mind bendingly diverse audiences in nearly every corner of the globe.

Amen, brother. Amen. It's like I don't need to put effort in writing anymore. Not that I do so more frequently.

[Super Sonic]

As Xyex said, the Ocean group were never "in charge" they're just a dubbing studio.

And I would love to see Dragonball handled by a different company, because I'm pretty sure VIZ wouldn't crop and blur the fuck out of the show and call it "re-mastering"

Funimation has, and always will be a perpetual fuck up machine when it comes to DBZ.

That depends on what view you take. From an economical point of view, I'd say it's anything but.

[Ultimate DBZ]

So, what your telling me is, you'd rather have Ocean group for DBZ w/ no original japnese audio, everything edeted, so many sppofs. And which episode stated he was in charge of RR. Which episdoe #?

[Super Sonic]

So, what your telling me is, you'd rather have Ocean group for DBZ w/ no original japnese audio, everything edeted, so many sppofs. And which episode stated he was in charge of RR. Which episdoe #?

It was in a flashback of the ep when Goku's fighting #19. It was fixed during DB. Don't know if they changed it back or anything in the new season set, but wasn't expecting it, nor cared.

[Captain Awesome]

So, what your telling me is, you'd rather have Ocean group for DBZ w/ no original japnese audio, everything edeted, so many sppofs.

For fucks sake dude.

The Ocean group were a voice studio, they had nothing to do with the editing or the dvd releases, Funimation was adhering to the ridiculous guidelines given to them by Saban.

So to make this abundantly clear.

Ocean did what they were told to do by FUNimation.

FUNimation did what they were told to do by Saban.

That is why seasons 1 and 2 are edited, it's got nothing to do with the Ocean group, they were just a voice studio being hired by FUNimation.

So stop this "Ocean fucked up DBZ" bullshit.

[Casual Matt]

Yeah, Captain Awesome is right on this one. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Ocean Group basically just a group of voice actors? I know there are probably directors and the like in the company as well, but it's really a voice thing. Heck, anything with the Ocean Cast was produced by someone else.

For example, DBZ had FUNi, Beast Wars had Mainframe, InuYasha had Viz, Transformers Armada had VoiceBox or someone.

Not to mention that Ocean is one of my alltime favorite groups of voice actors. Probably because I grew up hearing them everywhere. But seriously, they have an untold number of talented actors.

David Kaye, Gary Chaulk, Scott McNeil, Brian Drummond, Ian Corlett, Brad Swaile, the list goes on.

[Onikage725]

Why? Maybe the "USA-style superhero cartoon" is what FUNi was aiming for. Those key concepts and plot points obviously weren't necessary to create a successful product among the resulting demographic.

I'm aware of what FUNi was aiming for. My statement was pretty much meant to explain what they were aiming for. My point was that if you have to mangle a product to fit it into your demographic, then you're getting off on the wrong foot already. I understand the market back in the Saban days, but the Toonami era was just as screwy from a script standpoint (though they ridiculous visual edits stopped being a problem).

Do you really expect me to swallow that FUNi would have run the risk of losing their audience if they had Piccolo explain that they can hide and raise their "power levels" (even if they didn't want to use the term "ki")? Heck, even in the Saban days they covered that to a degree back in the "Saiyan Saga," so there's really no reason for the changes and its really just inconsistent.

Would they also have been risking their fanbase if they hadn't implied that Dr. Gero was the power behind Commander Red (or WAS him, I'm really not sure where that flashback was going with that one) or that Tao Pai Pai was a general in the RR? Come on people, this show's dub is no stranger to random dialogue changes. Can we just accept them as such without being force-fed the party line about how they were in some way necessary?

You're speaking from a completely biased stand-point. You can't say it'd be a hit if left untouched. Especially back in the day it was brought over. Anime was 100% niche market back then, the cloestest thing to main stream it had gotten was Pokemon. FUNi was a new company, they needed to make sure it would sell, not cross their fingers and hope that something that was big else where would be so here with the finicky American public.

I understand general content edits back in those days, but there were some things that were just not necessary. Granted, we were dealing with the seeds planted by Haim "Power Rangers" Saban, and that guy's company made Harmony Gold look like ADV.

And besides, wasn't DBZ's dub considered good compared to other dubs during the time? Other dubs would completely change the names instead of making minor alterations like Funi did and make the storylines almost completely different.

DBZ was basically a midpoint between...say... Sailor Moon and Ronin Warriors. SM was heavily altered in pretty much every area, and is in general the show I think 4Kids takes its inspiration from in all of their efforts. RW not so much for its time (outside of names, a general "hip" approach to the script, and some minor content edits at certain points). The story was mostly left intact, most episodes weren't edited in any major way, and they kept the original music, credits not withstanding.

And @ Ultimate DBZ...

Dude are you serious? The Ocean Group is group of voice actors. THAT'S IT. FUNimation had the reigns, with Saban looming over their shoulder. And if you mean anything about the international english dub, FUNi still owns that. They pretty much use the same scripts. Even the UUCs use like 90% of the scripts from the old days, except for parts that had previously been cut out, or to add swear words or remove some of the more ridiculous edits (like dialogue that had been meant to soften the impact of violence). And the UUC's had awesome music? Where exactly? Apparently my ears fail me. "Far less obtrusive than the Faulconer score" is really about all I'd give it.

[Vekurotto]

Dragonball Z was bound to be a hit, so why change such important elements? They didn't do it for any of their other dubs.

You're speaking from a completely biased stand-point. You can't say it'd be a hit if left untouched. Especially back in the day it was brought over. Anime was 100% niche market back then, the cloestest thing to main stream it had gotten was Pokemon. FUNi was a new company, they needed to make sure it would sell, not cross their fingers and hope that something that was big else where would be so here with the finicky American public.

That may have been the case back when the Saiyan and Namek arcs where airing but in 1999 when Funi decided to do the episodes completely on their own, anime was recognized as being of foreign origin and fan communities were more adamant about demanding the original versions of all anime and that editing was like committing an unforgivable crime. Thing about Funi that people didn't like was that despite knowing that DBZ was anime and that people demanded to see DBZ closest to the original as possible in dub form, they still changed things that made it not resemble the original like the music and scripts when they didn't have to.

It's seen in Dragonball when they used the original BGM. Did people get turned off? Did people think the show was too Japanese? Scripts are another thing, but them using the original BGM in Dragonball should've showed Funi that people were still going to watch whatever was in front of them.

[Kunzait_83]

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[Onikage725]

Wasn't Gundam Wing around somewhere near or just after the "Toonami Rising Sun" block that the Garlic Jr. Saga aired in?

Honestly, even if we were to cut "season 3" slack based on it being their fledgling attempt by themselves, we still have to note that the climate towards anime was changing. It was running parallel to Ronin Warriors. Around the time of "season 4" we were getting the well done Gundam Wing, Tenchi, and G-Force (a MUCH better adaptation of Gatchaman than most of what had previously come out). Wasn't Blue Submarine around then too?

And shortly after we were getting stuff like Outlaw Star, MS Gundam and 08th MS Team, Big O, establishing Adult Swim and airing content like Cowboy Bebop and FUNi's own well-adapted Yu Yu Hakusho.

So the fact that it took us until the Buu Saga to get a halfway decent attempt (and really, it depends on which eps you refer to) for DBZ just shows how stubborn or afraid they were to make any changes to their "baby."

And to backup Kunzait's point about the show's popularity, and my own about demographics- the show was initially shoehorned into a timeslot for youngsters, and edited as such. It failed. Pilaf aired, DB was abandoned, DBZ kicks off and makes it two seasons before cancellation. As far as anime sensations go, it was less Sailor Moon and more Teknoman. Hell, I think in my area it actually was Teknoman's lead in. Teknoman, btw, is another show that was heavily edited to make it "marketable," failed and was abandoned, received a slightly more faithful (and also more succesful) international english dub, and now enjoys new success on the DVD market dub-free in its "Tekkaman Blade" incarnation.

But back on topic- the series drummed up new interest doing its Raditz-Recoome loop over and over and over and over and over on Toonami, an afternoon block geared towards an older audience than DBZ's old weekend morning target. It was here that it became popular, despite a lower viewer pool (WB and UPN were basic cable, Cartoon Network at the time was not). It was here in this slot aiming at an older audience (the same time slot that allowed Ronin Warriors to be as relatively well off as it was even back on Fox) that the show became a hit. So why, deep into the Cell Saga, did we still have inane dialogue changes in keeping with the early days? We can't blame the market, since this was the era that launched Adult Swim while airing multiple Gundam series' on Toonami.

[Herms]

I beginning to think that Kunzait_83 may in fact be an alternate version of me from a parallel dimension, who simply possesses the patience and clarity of mind to type out in full the things I'd like to say. Or maybe we just have the same opinions. But I kind of like the whole alternate dimension explanation better...