"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kanassa » Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:30 pm

Kaiza_Toshiyuki wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:59 pm
Kanassa wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:19 pm

Moro has done nothing to make himself unique.
Setting Aside his unique design and his inclusion as an ancient character, Is the fact that his magic counters Goku and Vegeta on a fundamental level not enough to make him unique?
His magic is nothing. He drains energy? Yeah, the other Dragon Ball villains did it better.

His magic is the worst part of his character, you have magic which can be used to pull off a lot of cool and twisted concepts and Toyo does basically nothing with it outside of energy drain and improved afterimage, not one hint of creativity with magic. The fake leaks that had Moro pulling off a load of tricks like making Vegeta think he was melting are far more creative and unique than anything Moro has done. Zamasu did more when he started summoning bricks.
He isn't 'just another villain', he's 'just another villain's semi-notable henchmen'.
Based on his act of killing his underling and seeing the rest of the universe as his food?
...What part of that makes him less bland and forgettable?

Fuck, what villain doesn't kill their underling these days? It's like 'Vilainy 101: Prove you're a super bastard'
They didn't 'had to have Meerus', all he's done is make little sense and very awkwardly not fit it.
Perhaps, but it does a good job of expanding the Galactic Patrol beyond the only member we know.
Eh, the expansion of the Galactic patrol could be interesting, but for the most part, it's just bringing a lot of past events into question. Their incompetence is what explained their lacking involvement and place in the universe, implying that they've been far more competent and been around for so long, it brings up a lot of glaring issues. Doesn't help how they seem to be very selectively knowledgable about past sagas. They seem to know all the details about the majin buu saga, yet don't know about Vegeta and Goku's involvment. They know all this shit about the Kais and how the universe work, yet Beerus is still thought of as a myth.
Jaco wouldn't be acting out of character, he's shown that he can be competent before, though he'd actually perform these acts in much more entertaining ways. Having Jaco trip up and desperately scramble to keep the situation together as he's mid panic under his breath is far more engaging than Meerus trying to hard to be cool.
While he has been competent before, not on the same level of Merus. Had he come in and done to Moro what Merus did, it would have had a lot more fan backlash. Remember when Roshi came in with his false ultra instinct?

Introducing a new character who is the best of the best in the galactic patrol makes a lot more sense as to why he is so skilled, if not a bit annoying with how hard toyotaro is trying to make him seem so cool. It works in some places and less in others.
Backlash against Roshi was for a culmination of reasons, not just a weaker character standing up to a character he shouldn't be able to. There'd be nothing odd about Jaco being able to distract Moro with gadgets and his unorthodox behavior than Meerus (Though, in both situations, this plan only works because Moro is an idiot who doesn't swat the fly that can't hurt him. Even then, how does this plan help? Are they just trusting that Moro doesn't fly away back into space?).

Plus, in my experience Fans are much more forgiving of an existing character doing this than a new character.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:


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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by AnimeNation101 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:39 pm

I personally think Merus is great. It makes sense that the number 1 Galactic Patroller would be involved in recapturing the Galactic Patrol’s number 1 prisoner. And him using his gadgets can make for some cool and creative scenes compared to the conventional fast exchanges of punches.

He’s definitely somehow I would want to see stick around and see in other arcs.
I called it that Gogeta, Bardock, and something Broly related would be in the movie before it was even announced that it was a Broly movie. 8)

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by dbzfan7 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:12 pm

I enjoy Moro to a degree. I wouldn't call him special, but honestly he feels refreshing after the charismatic black hole that is Jiren. Maybe Moro is bad, but because Jiren lowered the bar so ridiculously low I am more forgiving of practically anything that doesn't suck that bad.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiza_Toshiyuki » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:35 pm

Kanassa wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:30 pm
His magic is nothing. He drains energy? Yeah, the other Dragon Ball villains did it better.
Unless I'm missing something, Moro is the only one who drains energy. Cell was just absorbing your entire body, same with Buu. Moro makes it very difficult to overpower him in a fight traditionally by stealing your energy to make himself stronger and his opponent weaker.

As much as Goku and Vegeta are smart fighters, they generally let their power talk when it comes to fighting. Moro being someone who can drop them from full power to not even able to go super saiyan in mere minutes is something no other villain has done and is a major weakness of Goku and Vegeta.

His magic is the worst part of his character, you have magic which can be used to pull off a lot of cool and twisted concepts and Toyo does basically nothing with it outside of energy drain and improved afterimage, not one hint of creativity with magic. The fake leaks that had Moro pulling off a load of tricks like making Vegeta think he was melting are far more creative and unique than anything Moro has done. Zamasu did more when he started summoning bricks.
While I do think his magic could have been expanded on in a more interesting manner, the way this comes across as an angry fan boy who didn't have his fan theories proven right gets under my skin. This is a minor nitpick at best and has little to no effect on the story of the arc overall.

Also, stop trying to pretend like this is all Toyotaro's fault. In case you haven't noticed, Toriyama is helping with the story more closely than before with him actually helping write the story and not just giving general guidelines like before. At the very least acknowledge that.
...What part of that makes him less bland and forgettable?

Fuck, what villain doesn't kill their underling these days? It's like 'Villainy 101: Prove you're a super bastard'
I don't know what your definition of bland and forgettable is, but its definitely not mine. Moro has already done more to get himself remembered as one of DBS memorable Villains. Better than the likes of the easily forgettable Copy Vegeta and who ever Gohan fought right before the TOP.
Eh, the expansion of the Galactic patrol could be interesting, but for the most part, it's just bringing a lot of past events into question. Their incompetence is what explained their lacking involvement and place in the universe, implying that they've been far more competent and been around for so long, it brings up a lot of glaring issues. Doesn't help how they seem to be very selectively knowledgable about past sagas. They seem to know all the details about the majin buu saga, yet don't know about Vegeta and Goku's involvment. They know all this shit about the Kais and how the universe work, yet Beerus is still thought of as a myth.
I do agree that it does create a lot of inconsistencies. But, most of them can be chalked up with "They hadn't thought of it at the time". Not saying thats the best way of doing it, but its the most Toriyama answer i can give you on that.

Backlash against Roshi was for a culmination of reasons, not just a weaker character standing up to a character he shouldn't be able to. There'd be nothing odd about Jaco being able to distract Moro with gadgets and his unorthodox behavior than Meerus (Though, in both situations, this plan only works because Moro is an idiot who doesn't swat the fly that can't hurt him. Even then, how does this plan help? Are they just trusting that Moro doesn't fly away back into space?).

Plus, in my experience Fans are much more forgiving of an existing character doing this than a new character.
Gonna get to the bolded part last, but first, it would be a lot more odd with Jaco being able to distract Moro with stuff like that. If Jaco could do all this stuff to Moro now, him freaking out a bit over some frieza soldiers would make no sense.

Now for the comment in bold. Saying that Moro should just swat away Merus like a fly is missing the point of the scene altogether. Its been established in this arc that less powerful characters can still be effective with Tech and strategy. Having Moro swat him away would be making the point clear that "Only the strong matter in Dragon Ball".

Also, saying that Moro could just fly back into space is like saying frieza could just throw another death ball to destroy namek. Its not a stupidity of the writer, its the villain being over confident. Just like how frieza was confident that Goku would die once namek exploded, Moro was convinced that he had no need to run, whether that be because of his Third wish or him having his full power restored. They are both being over confident and in the case of frieza that over confidence led to his defeat. Its not poor writing, its establishing a character flaw (Albeit the most overused character flaw of all time.)

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by AnimeNation101 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:44 pm

dbzfan7 wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:12 pm
I enjoy Moro to a degree. I wouldn't call him special, but honestly he feels refreshing after the charismatic black hole that is Jiren. Maybe Moro is bad, but because Jiren lowered the bar so ridiculously low I am more forgiving of practically anything that doesn't suck that bad.
Tbh, the lack of many DBS villains in general has made the “villain quality bar” low. So I’d already take what i can get when it comes to actual villains. And for Moro as an antagonist overall, as you said before, Jiren lowered that bar too.

So Moro’s a good enough villain and antagonist to please me.
I called it that Gogeta, Bardock, and something Broly related would be in the movie before it was even announced that it was a Broly movie. 8)

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Block88 » Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:09 am

Jesus been awhile since I post here anyways failed to see how jiren lowered the bar as far as antagonist goes considering as far as being a threat to our heroes he actually lived up to it and exceeded expectations
Personality wise you may have a point there but Moro so far isn’t all that unique considering the whole energy drain stuff is something we dealt with dr gero and android 19

Design wise he’s unique other than that nah he doesn’t have much going for him

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kanassa » Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:17 am

Kaiza_Toshiyuki wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:35 pm
Kanassa wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:30 pm
His magic is nothing. He drains energy? Yeah, the other Dragon Ball villains did it better.
Unless I'm missing something, Moro is the only one who drains energy. Cell was just absorbing your entire body, same with Buu. Moro makes it very difficult to overpower him in a fight traditionally by stealing your energy to make himself stronger and his opponent weaker.

As much as Goku and Vegeta are smart fighters, they generally let their power talk when it comes to fighting. Moro being someone who can drop them from full power to not even able to go super saiyan in mere minutes is something no other villain has done and is a major weakness of Goku and Vegeta.
Yakon, Lord Slug, Android 19 and 20, with Cell doing it with far more brutal concequences. Hell, for a brief moment, Picolo was able to do it back at the world tournament.
His magic is the worst part of his character, you have magic which can be used to pull off a lot of cool and twisted concepts and Toyo does basically nothing with it outside of energy drain and improved afterimage, not one hint of creativity with magic. The fake leaks that had Moro pulling off a load of tricks like making Vegeta think he was melting are far more creative and unique than anything Moro has done. Zamasu did more when he started summoning bricks.
While I do think his magic could have been expanded on in a more interesting manner, the way this comes across as an angry fan boy who didn't have his fan theories proven right gets under my skin. This is a minor nitpick at best and has little to no effect on the story of the arc overall.
How? Him being a wizard is the selling point of the character, it's the shit everyone keeps talking about when it comes to him. How is saying "They had potential to do something and did nothing, leaving him with nothing" a nitpick and have anything to do with fan theories, especially in a series that has shown far better magic users? This comes off as you just lazily dismissing a point you have nothing to actually say about.
Also, stop trying to pretend like this is all Toyotaro's fault. In case you haven't noticed, Toriyama is helping with the story more closely than before with him actually helping write the story and not just giving general guidelines like before. At the very least acknowledge that.
Has this been specifically stated somewhere? To my knowledge, this has been billed as Toyo's story with Toriyama approving, nothing about Toriyama having 'more input' (Even though in past interviews, Toriyama has expressed how he prefers Toyo to do his own thing and only really edits the jokes.).

Even then, I'm confident in an example of a character problem that matches Toyo's usual character problem is likely mostly Toyo's doing.
...What part of that makes him less bland and forgettable?

Fuck, what villain doesn't kill their underling these days? It's like 'Villainy 101: Prove you're a super bastard'
I don't know what your definition of bland and forgettable is, but its definitely not mine. Moro has already done more to get himself remembered as one of DBS memorable Villains. Better than the likes of the easily forgettable Copy Vegeta and who ever Gohan fought right before the TOP.
Dull, unexciting, generic and does nothing to stand out compared to it's peers. He has little in the way of character or motivation, his way of fighting does nothing to set himself apart, he's a Frankenstein of Dragon Ball villains and most of his actions just come down to "The script says so".

Killing your own minion just because doesn't give Moro more character. He walks, talks and act like every other dragon ball villain, but doesn't have any extra slab of substance to set him apart.

Saying he's more memorable then one episode filler villains isn't an achievement. Fuck, Barry Kahn managed to have more character as well as having some entertaining interactions with his 'foes', with the alien parasite just adding an extra layer of wackness.
Gonna get to the bolded part last, but first, it would be a lot more odd with Jaco being able to distract Moro with stuff like that. If Jaco could do all this stuff to Moro now, him freaking out a bit over some frieza soldiers would make no sense.
Him freaking out over Frieza Soldiers way already weird since he still kicked their asses. Even then, this would just be a "Surprised what you can do when you've got no choice."
Now for the comment in bold. Saying that Moro should just swat away Merus like a fly is missing the point of the scene altogether. Its been established in this arc that less powerful characters can still be effective with Tech and strategy. Having Moro swat him away would be making the point clear that "Only the strong matter in Dragon Ball".
So, instead of there being an in-universe reason for this to work, it's just 'The Script Says this works'? If the narrative needed to get across that spinach makes you OP, it wouldn't change that it would be bullshit for Moro to just stand there and let Popeye the Spaceman take the mystical green spinach he's been hunting the entire arc.
Also, saying that Moro could just fly back into space is like saying frieza could just throw another death ball to destroy namek. Its not a stupidity of the writer, its the villain being over confident. Just like how frieza was confident that Goku would die once namek exploded, Moro was convinced that he had no need to run, whether that be because of his Third wish or him having his full power restored. They are both being over confident and in the case of frieza that over confidence led to his defeat. Its not poor writing, its establishing a character flaw (Albeit the most overused character flaw of all time.)
Which goes against Moro's actions up until this point, he disappeared up to space in the first place so he didn't have to deal with Goku and Vegeta.

It is poor writing to establish a character flaw at the last minute because you can't be bothered to write a better reason for why the villain doesn't win.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:


Obligitory Fan Fic Plug: Dragon Ball - Another Road
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Block88 » Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:29 am

Kanassa wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:17 am
Kaiza_Toshiyuki wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:35 pm
Kanassa wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:30 pm
His magic is nothing. He drains energy? Yeah, the other Dragon Ball villains did it better.
Unless I'm missing something, Moro is the only one who drains energy. Cell was just absorbing your entire body, same with Buu. Moro makes it very difficult to overpower him in a fight traditionally by stealing your energy to make himself stronger and his opponent weaker.

As much as Goku and Vegeta are smart fighters, they generally let their power talk when it comes to fighting. Moro being someone who can drop them from full power to not even able to go super saiyan in mere minutes is something no other villain has done and is a major weakness of Goku and Vegeta.
Yakon, Lord Slug, Android 19 and 20, with Cell doing it with far more brutal concequences. Hell, for a brief moment, Picolo was able to do it back at the world tournament.
His magic is the worst part of his character, you have magic which can be used to pull off a lot of cool and twisted concepts and Toyo does basically nothing with it outside of energy drain and improved afterimage, not one hint of creativity with magic. The fake leaks that had Moro pulling off a load of tricks like making Vegeta think he was melting are far more creative and unique than anything Moro has done. Zamasu did more when he started summoning bricks.
While I do think his magic could have been expanded on in a more interesting manner, the way this comes across as an angry fan boy who didn't have his fan theories proven right gets under my skin. This is a minor nitpick at best and has little to no effect on the story of the arc overall.
How? Him being a wizard is the selling point of the character, it's the shit everyone keeps talking about when it comes to him. How is saying "They had potential to do something and did nothing, leaving him with nothing" a nitpick and have anything to do with fan theories, especially in a series that has shown far better magic users? This comes off as you just lazily dismissing a point you have nothing to actually say about.
Also, stop trying to pretend like this is all Toyotaro's fault. In case you haven't noticed, Toriyama is helping with the story more closely than before with him actually helping write the story and not just giving general guidelines like before. At the very least acknowledge that.
Has this been specifically stated somewhere? To my knowledge, this has been billed as Toyo's story with Toriyama approving, nothing about Toriyama having 'more input' (Even though in past interviews, Toriyama has expressed how he prefers Toyo to do his own thing and only really edits the jokes.).

Even then, I'm confident in an example of a character problem that matches Toyo's usual character problem is likely mostly Toyo's doing.
...What part of that makes him less bland and forgettable?

Fuck, what villain doesn't kill their underling these days? It's like 'Villainy 101: Prove you're a super bastard'
I don't know what your definition of bland and forgettable is, but its definitely not mine. Moro has already done more to get himself remembered as one of DBS memorable Villains. Better than the likes of the easily forgettable Copy Vegeta and who ever Gohan fought right before the TOP.
Dull, unexciting, generic and does nothing to stand out compared to it's peers. He has little in the way of character or motivation, his way of fighting does nothing to set himself apart, he's a Frankenstein of Dragon Ball villains and most of his actions just come down to "The script says so".

Killing your own minion just because doesn't give Moro more character. He walks, talks and act like every other dragon ball villain, but doesn't have any extra slab of substance to set him apart.

Saying he's more memorable then one episode filler villains isn't an achievement. Fuck, Barry Kahn managed to have more character as well as having some entertaining interactions with his 'foes', with the alien parasite just adding an extra layer of wackness.
Gonna get to the bolded part last, but first, it would be a lot more odd with Jaco being able to distract Moro with stuff like that. If Jaco could do all this stuff to Moro now, him freaking out a bit over some frieza soldiers would make no sense.
Him freaking out over Frieza Soldiers way already weird since he still kicked their asses. Even then, this would just be a "Surprised what you can do when you've got no choice."
Now for the comment in bold. Saying that Moro should just swat away Merus like a fly is missing the point of the scene altogether. Its been established in this arc that less powerful characters can still be effective with Tech and strategy. Having Moro swat him away would be making the point clear that "Only the strong matter in Dragon Ball".
So, instead of there being an in-universe reason for this to work, it's just 'The Script Says this works'? If the narrative needed to get across that spinach makes you OP, it wouldn't change that it would be bullshit for Moro to just stand there and let Popeye the Spaceman take the mystical green spinach he's been hunting the entire arc.
Also, saying that Moro could just fly back into space is like saying frieza could just throw another death ball to destroy namek. Its not a stupidity of the writer, its the villain being over confident. Just like how frieza was confident that Goku would die once namek exploded, Moro was convinced that he had no need to run, whether that be because of his Third wish or him having his full power restored. They are both being over confident and in the case of frieza that over confidence led to his defeat. Its not poor writing, its establishing a character flaw (Albeit the most overused character flaw of all time.)
Which goes against Moro's actions up until this point, he disappeared up to space in the first place so he didn't have to deal with Goku and Vegeta.

It is poor writing to establish a character flaw at the last minute because you can't be bothered to write a better reason for why the villain doesn't win.
I agree with most of your points Moro hasn’t done anything so far that makes him stand out personality wise of action wise.
Hell even going with the whole he’s better than x,y or z really isn’t something to brag about considering he himself didn’t do something that makes him feel different than average db villain number #274738494
Magic is his bread and butter so far it’s severely lacking.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiza_Toshiyuki » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:13 am

I feel I should interject here by saying that I am not trying to say that this arc has no flaws, because that is a big lie. And If I have conveyed that Idea, I apologize. I have plenty of issues with this arc, from the pacing to Moro constantly not killing Goku and Vegeta when he has no reason not to other than plot.

For some people these wont be issues, but they are for me. And the issues you have will be issues to you. What you said isnt technically wrong. Its just something you found wrong with it, which is fine. But I would also like to mention that few things you say are just wrong, which is why I am replying to correct you.

Kanassa wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:17 am
Yakon, Lord Slug, Android 19 and 20, with Cell doing it with far more brutal concequences. Hell, for a brief moment, Picolo was able to do it back at the world tournament.
This doesn't address my point at all. The point I have been making this entire time is that his magic is unique in he is the only one to utilize this in such a manner as to make him a direct counter to Goku and Vegeta. You bringing up characters who can also arbitrarily absorb energy doesn't change the fact that no one else had used it to such an effect, except for 19 and 20 who are forgettable side villains with about as much character as a can of beans (I think Moro's Character could be better in a lot of ways but he is not worse than these two). The Equivalent would be me saying that Goku's Kamehameha is really powerful, and someone else pointing to all the other characters who can also perform the same move. Its not wrong that these other characters can do it, but it doesn't change the fact that Goku's Kamehameha is still really powerful.

How? Him being a wizard is the selling point of the character, it's the shit everyone keeps talking about when it comes to him. How is saying "They had potential to do something and did nothing, leaving him with nothing" a nitpick and have anything to do with fan theories, especially in a series that has shown far better magic users? This comes off as you just lazily dismissing a point you have nothing to actually say about.
They didn't do nothing they did less than you desired. Thats a personal issue with it, which is fine. Formed from an opinion, which again is fine
Has this been specifically stated somewhere? To my knowledge, this has been billed as Toyo's story with Toriyama approving, nothing about Toriyama having 'more input' (Even though in past interviews, Toriyama has expressed how he prefers Toyo to do his own thing and only really edits the jokes.).

Even then, I'm confident in an example of a character problem that matches Toyo's usual character problem is likely mostly Toyo's doing.
I Remember seeing a video about the topic, but I could be wrong. I will attempt to find it and if I do I will post the link for it. And I can't argue that a problem similar to problems that Toyotaro is prone to do, but I will say that its not impossible that in the event that Toriyama is working on it with him that it could have been his mistake. Its a possibility. A likely one? No, but still possible.

Dull, unexciting, generic and does nothing to stand out compared to it's peers. He has little in the way of character or motivation, his way of fighting does nothing to set himself apart, he's a Frankenstein of Dragon Ball villains and most of his actions just come down to "The script says so".

Killing your own minion just because doesn't give Moro more character. He walks, talks and act like every other dragon ball villain, but doesn't have any extra slab of substance to set him apart.

Saying he's more memorable then one episode filler villains isn't an achievement. Fuck, Barry Kahn managed to have more character as well as having some entertaining interactions with his 'foes', with the alien parasite just adding an extra layer of wackness.
Not that Dragon Ball is known for complexities with their villains, but your assessment is correct. But, the arc seems to be leading into the next act with his third wish so we will have to wait and see.

Him freaking out over Frieza Soldiers way already weird since he still kicked their asses. Even then, this would just be a "Surprised what you can do when you've got no choice."

So, instead of there being an in-universe reason for this to work, it's just 'The Script Says this works'? If the narrative needed to get across that spinach makes you OP, it wouldn't change that it would be bullshit for Moro to just stand there and let Popeye the Spaceman take the mystical green spinach he's been hunting the entire arc.

Is that not better than a character having an explanation for why they are so good? To be fair, Merus is the number 1 in the Galactic Patrol. That might not have meant much at the time of us hearing that, but he has more than shown us what it means to be number 1 in the Patrol. Dismissing that as "For the Plot" is kinda lazy arguing. He has a reason to be as skilled as he is, even if he has as much character as a potato.

Which goes against Moro's actions up until this point, he disappeared up to space in the first place so he didn't have to deal with Goku and Vegeta.

It is poor writing to establish a character flaw at the last minute because you can't be bothered to write a better reason for why the villain doesn't win.
Well, shit you got me there.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:39 am

HeroR wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:15 pm
Sora Saiyan wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:24 pm
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:13 pm
Goku never actually sensed Kaioshin during the Boo saga.

The only reason he found the Kaioshin realm was because he felt Gohan. Goku was surprised to see Kaioshin and Kibito there.
Yeah that's how I've always known it. It's why God ki being undetectable sort of works. Just gotta say that Goku sensed Bubbles whenever he went to Kaios and there's no issue.

Typical Toriyama, coming up with something and it accidentally fitting. I'd say he reread the manga and realised it could work like that, but I highly doubt it
Except Goku was shocked when he learned that he can't feel Beerus and King Kai had to tell him that God Ki isn't sensible by mortals. An odd statement if Goku knew for years being around King Kai that he can't sense god ki.
It was, but Kaio could sense Beerus fine. Maybe it just shocked Goku because of how Kaio was reacting, but honestly I have no idea.
Maybe Kaio doesn't have God ki, but it seems strange that he wouldn't have. He was born divine after all. Or maybe Goku just expected a god based on fighting to have detectable ki, but even that seems like a stretch. I dunno.

Anywho, I'm hoping this arc is just something to bridge us to EoZ with Uub. He seems like he's gotten quite important now, and I can't wait to get out of the pre EoZ period.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kanassa » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:54 am

Kaiza_Toshiyuki wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:13 am
I feel I should interject here by saying that I am not trying to say that this arc has no flaws, because that is a big lie. And If I have conveyed that Idea, I apologize. I have plenty of issues with this arc, from the pacing to Moro constantly not killing Goku and Vegeta when he has no reason not to other than plot.

For some people these wont be issues, but they are for me. And the issues you have will be issues to you. What you said isnt technically wrong. Its just something you found wrong with it, which is fine. But I would also like to mention that few things you say are just wrong, which is why I am replying to correct you.
How do you think I see your argument? I know this is the internet, but I assume posters on either side of a discussion fully believe that what they're saying is correct and not just replying to me for the sake of replying.
Kanassa wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:17 am
Yakon, Lord Slug, Android 19 and 20, with Cell doing it with far more brutal concequences. Hell, for a brief moment, Picolo was able to do it back at the world tournament.
This doesn't address my point at all. The point I have been making this entire time is that his magic is unique in he is the only one to utilize this in such a manner as to make him a direct counter to Goku and Vegeta. You bringing up characters who can also arbitrarily absorb energy doesn't change the fact that no one else had used it to such an effect, except for 19 and 20 who are forgettable side villains with about as much character as a can of beans (I think Moro's Character could be better in a lot of ways but he is not worse than these two). The Equivalent would be me saying that Goku's Kamehameha is really powerful, and someone else pointing to all the other characters who can also perform the same move. Its not wrong that these other characters can do it, but it doesn't change the fact that Goku's Kamehameha is still really powerful.
It doesn't make him a direct counter as the narrative itself points out that the only reason it worked the first time is because Goku and Vegeta didn't realize it was happening (Which officially proves that Yamcha is a better fighter! :D), which is what happened in the Android Saga as well. In this very chapter, Vegeta reiterates it.

I don't think your example is equivalent. Saying Goku's version of the Kamehameha is more powerful than everyone else's, it's the same as praising it for being unique to other kamehamehas. Yes, technically being more powerful is a difference, but it's not exactly what people mean when they praise something for being unique.

How? Him being a wizard is the selling point of the character, it's the shit everyone keeps talking about when it comes to him. How is saying "They had potential to do something and did nothing, leaving him with nothing" a nitpick and have anything to do with fan theories, especially in a series that has shown far better magic users? This comes off as you just lazily dismissing a point you have nothing to actually say about.
They didn't do nothing they did less than you desired. Thats a personal issue with it, which is fine. Formed from an opinion, which again is fine
When you bill a character as a dark magic man and then all he does with his magic is just simple fighting techniques other non-magical people already do, it's not a stretch to describe it as nothing being done with the concept presented. The arc hypes up Moro's magic as different and weird somehow, but it's just the same big ki blasts and brute force as ever.

Dull, unexciting, generic and does nothing to stand out compared to it's peers. He has little in the way of character or motivation, his way of fighting does nothing to set himself apart, he's a Frankenstein of Dragon Ball villains and most of his actions just come down to "The script says so".

Killing your own minion just because doesn't give Moro more character. He walks, talks and act like every other dragon ball villain, but doesn't have any extra slab of substance to set him apart.

Saying he's more memorable then one episode filler villains isn't an achievement. Fuck, Barry Kahn managed to have more character as well as having some entertaining interactions with his 'foes', with the alien parasite just adding an extra layer of wackness.
Not that Dragon Ball is known for complexities with their villains, but your assessment is correct. But, the arc seems to be leading into the next act with his third wish so we will have to wait and see.
I'm not talking about complexities, just substance in general, the other villains at their core had a lot of annoying traits shared across them, but they still had extra qualities and character on top of it to set them apart. Vegeta's monolouges about pride, strength and Goku's place in the pecking order. Frieza's psychic abilities, sophisticated presentation and grace. Cell's horrific aesthetic, the amalgamation of the Z Fighter's genes as well as his obsession with pushing everyone to the brink to prove his perfection. Majin Buu's complete and utter childish goofyness contrasting to the horrific threat he posed along with the uniquely magical properties of his body. Black and Zamasu's ego-driven dynamic, grace, politeness and full devotion to what they believed was a righteous quest coupled with Black's brutal twist on Goku's existing moveset and Zamasu using his immortal body to be the ultimate meat shield.

They had more to them, they had different aspects to give the same fights of different colored ki blasts a few twists and variation, along with solid interactions with the characters themselves (Moro's interactions with the cast have been pretty empty, he doesn't really build up any sort of connection or dynamic with them.)

If more had been done with the magic aspect, Moro would actually stand out.

Him freaking out over Frieza Soldiers way already weird since he still kicked their asses. Even then, this would just be a "Surprised what you can do when you've got no choice."

So, instead of there being an in-universe reason for this to work, it's just 'The Script Says this works'? If the narrative needed to get across that spinach makes you OP, it wouldn't change that it would be bullshit for Moro to just stand there and let Popeye the Spaceman take the mystical green spinach he's been hunting the entire arc.

Is that not better than a character having an explanation for why they are so good? To be fair, Merus is the number 1 in the Galactic Patrol. That might not have meant much at the time of us hearing that, but he has more than shown us what it means to be number 1 in the Patrol. Dismissing that as "For the Plot" is kinda lazy arguing. He has a reason to be as skilled as he is, even if he has as much character as a potato.
I can accept that Meerus is skilled enough to distract Moro, though I don't think the story conveys it in a way that makes it look believable, Moro has no reason not to shut down Meerus right there, especially since he's shown some disdain for Meerus. But your response to my original point was that it didn't matter if the situation didn't make sense, because the logical outcome would go against the message.

The Future Trunks arc in the anime wanted to show the normal humans getting involved in the fights to hammer in the idea of everyone working together and how they're all strong together, so they made situations where the human's inclusion worked like exploiting weaknesses that we don't think about in Dragon Ball often like chemical and biological weapons.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:


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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiza_Toshiyuki » Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:25 am

Kanassa wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:54 am
How do you think I see your argument? I know this is the internet, but I assume posters on either side of a discussion fully believe that what they're saying is correct and not just replying to me for the sake of replying.
Explain Please.
It doesn't make him a direct counter as the narrative itself points out that the only reason it worked the first time is because Goku and Vegeta didn't realize it was happening (Which officially proves that Yamcha is a better fighter! :D), which is what happened in the Android Saga as well. In this very chapter, Vegeta reiterates it.
I actually hope that this is the case, so we can see more of that Magic he claims to have.
When you bill a character as a dark magic man and then all he does with his magic is just simple fighting techniques other non-magical people already do, it's not a stretch to describe it as nothing being done with the concept presented. The arc hypes up Moro's magic as different and weird somehow, but it's just the same big ki blasts and brute force as ever.
Same as before, I hope they use the fact that Goku and Vegeta are ready for his Energy Absorption that he now can use another array of powers.

I'm not talking about complexities, just substance in general, the other villains at their core had a lot of annoying traits shared across them, but they still had extra qualities and character on top of it to set them apart. Vegeta's monologues about pride, strength and Goku's place in the pecking order. Frieza's psychic abilities, sophisticated presentation and grace. Cell's horrific aesthetic, the amalgamation of the Z Fighter's genes as well as his obsession with pushing everyone to the brink to prove his perfection. Majin Buu's complete and utter childish goofyness contrasting to the horrific threat he posed along with the uniquely magical properties of his body. Black and Zamasu's ego-driven dynamic, grace, politeness and full devotion to what they believed was a righteous quest coupled with Black's brutal twist on Goku's existing moveset and Zamasu using his immortal body to be the ultimate meat shield.

They had more to them, they had different aspects to give the same fights of different colored ki blasts a few twists and variation, along with solid interactions with the characters themselves (Moro's interactions with the cast have been pretty empty, he doesn't really build up any sort of connection or dynamic with them.)

If more had been done with the magic aspect, Moro would actually stand out.
The closest we got to this was Moro treating everyone like his meal, but thats more just "Villain doesn't like people" cliche.

I would be curious for your recommendations as to how they could save this arc before it is too far gone

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by sangofe » Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:26 am

So do we know if this moro arc is a Toyotaro exclusive story?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by sintzu » Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:24 am

sangofe wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:26 am
So do we know if this moro arc is a Toyotaro exclusive story?
He's working on it with Toriyama. If you're asking whether or not it'll be in the anime, it most likely will as it has major developments for Buu and Uub. I think it's safe to say we may end up going past EOZ afterall as this isn't the first time Uub's been brought up.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:33 am

sangofe wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:26 am
So do we know if this moro arc is a Toyotaro exclusive story?
Considering how un-Dragon Ball it feels like, how it’s still essentially fillerish as it doesn’t add much to the lore and how Goku is completely irrilevant to the plot as of right now, aside from being able to teleport, I would say that this is definitely a Toyotaro exclusive with Toriyama just approving this stuff because it’s tolerable and doesn’t hurt the series in any way.
Toriyama is probably focusing on his next project. And the slow pace of this arc I think is being done on purpose to buy time for the anime to return/Toriyama to finish his next story/whatever motivation.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:43 am

What in the heck is this unknown wish?

Moro seems to laugh at the idea of being defeated because of this wish. On top of that, when he was about to make it, he questioned if Porunga was even capable of granting him such a wish. I don't believe it's immortality, so I have no idea what this can be.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Block88 » Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:58 am

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:43 am
What in the heck is this unknown wish?

Moro seems to laugh at the idea of being defeated because of this wish. On top of that, when he was about to make it, he questioned if Porunga was even capable of granting him such a wish. I don't believe it's immortality, so I have no idea what this can be.
Idk it has to be something given we had to wait to chapters for it.
Knowing now grand supreme kai doesn’t have the power to seal him and already dealt with immortal being like with Zamasu

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kanassa » Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:11 am

Kaiza_Toshiyuki wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:25 am
Kanassa wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:54 am
How do you think I see your argument? I know this is the internet, but I assume posters on either side of a discussion fully believe that what they're saying is correct and not just replying to me for the sake of replying.
Explain Please.
What part of that is confusing?
I would be curious for your recommendations as to how they could save this arc before it is too far gone
You can't save a story in it's climax.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:


Obligitory Fan Fic Plug: Dragon Ball - Another Road
Kanassa wrote:
FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back. :D
- FoolsGil, Out of Context, 2017

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:58 am

Yeah, I think Babidi's magic was presentationally more original than Moro's is. It dealt with the psychological and emotional aspects of the fighters through the wizard's poking & prodding into the recesses of their heart and mind to exploit any negative thought they may have. Babidi also had that spell he used to kill Spopovich. It was grotesque but from what the Daizenshuu says of it, it sounds like it would have posed as a very dangerous technique if used to its full potential. When you think about it, even the anime gave Babidi an extra unique spell of sorts with the magical slime ability he used against Piccolo. It had no effect yet it was still more original in its operational power than Moro's abilities have been, in my opinion.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Liquir » Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:57 am

Special Project: Toyotarō Drew It!!” Image #19
Translation:
"It’s the Carrotizer Bunny!
He was taken to the Moon by Goku as punishment for his behavior, and that Moon, with him on it, has been destroyed — twice.
I don’t know whether he’s alive or dead, but I’d like to see him use not just his technique of turning those he touches into carrots, but his skill of being able to survive(?) out in space to help Goku & co."
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/2019/06/21/t ... -image-19/

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