Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 2567
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:04 pm

Helios518 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:25 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:10 pm
Helios518 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:57 pm


1) If that's the case, I can say that Geran doesn't contradict the statement because he's also a future goal-post much like Beerus.

2) Even I'll admit that Goku most likely has gotten stronger than his previous arc counterpart in the same form, but it clearly wasn't a significant gain as is wasn't mentioned. So, while Broli did beat a stronger SSB than Geran did, I doubt current SSB surpasses or is anywhere near ToP SSBKKx20/SSBE therefore Geran defeated a much stronger Goku. In essence, ToP SSB < Broli Movie SSB <<<<< ToP SSBKKx20.
1) You're still not getting it. It doesn't matter if Broly fought a SSBKKX20 Goku/SSBE Vegeta. Those forms in the Broly arc would be STRONGER than the SSBKKX20 and SSBE used in the TOP ANYWAY. REGARDLESS of how much of a strength increase Goku and Vegeta got. Why? Cause Toriyama's PLOT of Goku and Vegeta ever increasing in strength and the next opponent always being stronger. Broly is stronger than Goku and Vegeta, no matter which formed is used from any medium, they get dominated in any version of their blue forms.

2) BTW, Jiren was never stated to be a future goal post for Goku like Beerus. It's not even the same when Goku already beat Jiren head up. Fighting him later as a sparing partner is not the same.
1) I did get it. I literally said "Even I'll admit that Goku most likely has gotten stronger than his previous arc counterpart in the same form, but it clearly wasn't a significant gain as is wasn't mentioned." Though, I have been gone for awhile, has Toriyama released his drafts to definitively say that "Broly is stronger than Goku and Vegeta, no matter which formed is used from any medium, they get dominated in any version of their blue forms." now?

2) It doesn't need to be stated, it's outright shown in the series. Goku can only beat Geran with UI (a form he can't even control); effectively making it that as long as Goku does not have control of UI (which we are seeing him strive for), then he still is not anywhere near Geran. His whole win against Geran was a fluke.
I'm sorry, you don't go making up your own narration. It has to be stated that Jiren is a future opponent for Goku. Which is impossible since Goku already BEAT Jiren, which was stated.

Secondly, doesn't matter if it was a significant gain or not. Broly arc Goku/Vegeta are still stronger than their TOP versions. Even if it's by a hair. Toriyama's Broly plot script has Goku and Vegeta lose in Blue and win in fusion. That means TOEI's SSBE/BlueKKX20 as well as Toyotaor's MSSB/SSBE will have to forfeit in order to fit Gogeta in. It's all about Toriyama's plot dictating the power structure.
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

User avatar
Helios518
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 879
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:42 pm
Location: Not where you think

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:13 pm

Miracles wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:04 pm
Helios518 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:25 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:10 pm


1) You're still not getting it. It doesn't matter if Broly fought a SSBKKX20 Goku/SSBE Vegeta. Those forms in the Broly arc would be STRONGER than the SSBKKX20 and SSBE used in the TOP ANYWAY. REGARDLESS of how much of a strength increase Goku and Vegeta got. Why? Cause Toriyama's PLOT of Goku and Vegeta ever increasing in strength and the next opponent always being stronger. Broly is stronger than Goku and Vegeta, no matter which formed is used from any medium, they get dominated in any version of their blue forms.

2) BTW, Jiren was never stated to be a future goal post for Goku like Beerus. It's not even the same when Goku already beat Jiren head up. Fighting him later as a sparing partner is not the same.
1) I did get it. I literally said "Even I'll admit that Goku most likely has gotten stronger than his previous arc counterpart in the same form, but it clearly wasn't a significant gain as is wasn't mentioned." Though, I have been gone for awhile, has Toriyama released his drafts to definitively say that "Broly is stronger than Goku and Vegeta, no matter which formed is used from any medium, they get dominated in any version of their blue forms." now?

2) It doesn't need to be stated, it's outright shown in the series. Goku can only beat Geran with UI (a form he can't even control); effectively making it that as long as Goku does not have control of UI (which we are seeing him strive for), then he still is not anywhere near Geran. His whole win against Geran was a fluke.
I'm sorry, you don't go making up your own narration. It has to be stated that Jiren is a future opponent for Goku. Which is impossible since Goku already BEAT Jiren, which was stated.

Secondly, doesn't matter if it was a significant gain or not. Broly arc Goku/Vegeta are still stronger than their TOP versions. Even if it's by a hair. Toriyama's Broly plot script has Goku and Vegeta lose in Blue and win in fusion. That means TOEI's SSBE/BlueKKX20 as well as Toyotaor's MSSB/SSBE will have to forfeit in order to fit Gogeta in. It's all about Toriyama's plot dictating the power structure.
1) I'm not making my own narrative, I looking at what the show is simply displaying. Goku "beat" Geran is the same as how Goku "mastered" UI. Both were flukes in ToP. No one with a fair mindset (especially Goku) would be satisfied winning through a fluke.

2) It's interesting that you say I am making up the narrative when you somehow have "Toriyama's Broly plot script" that definitively dictates Broli (at least SS) is stronger SSBKKx20/SSBE. Realistically, it wouldn't be hard to change that Goku was going SSBKKx20 in burst against SS Broli just like in his first fight with Geran.
Why I use "Geran" instead of "Jiren"

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 2567
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:30 pm

Helios518 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:13 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:04 pm
Helios518 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:25 pm


1) I did get it. I literally said "Even I'll admit that Goku most likely has gotten stronger than his previous arc counterpart in the same form, but it clearly wasn't a significant gain as is wasn't mentioned." Though, I have been gone for awhile, has Toriyama released his drafts to definitively say that "Broly is stronger than Goku and Vegeta, no matter which formed is used from any medium, they get dominated in any version of their blue forms." now?

2) It doesn't need to be stated, it's outright shown in the series. Goku can only beat Geran with UI (a form he can't even control); effectively making it that as long as Goku does not have control of UI (which we are seeing him strive for), then he still is not anywhere near Geran. His whole win against Geran was a fluke.
I'm sorry, you don't go making up your own narration. It has to be stated that Jiren is a future opponent for Goku. Which is impossible since Goku already BEAT Jiren, which was stated.

Secondly, doesn't matter if it was a significant gain or not. Broly arc Goku/Vegeta are still stronger than their TOP versions. Even if it's by a hair. Toriyama's Broly plot script has Goku and Vegeta lose in Blue and win in fusion. That means TOEI's SSBE/BlueKKX20 as well as Toyotaor's MSSB/SSBE will have to forfeit in order to fit Gogeta in. It's all about Toriyama's plot dictating the power structure.
1) I'm not making my own narrative, I looking at what the show is simply displaying. Goku "beat" Geran is the same as how Goku "mastered" UI. Both were flukes in ToP. No one with a fair mindset (especially Goku) would be satisfied winning through a fluke.

2) It's interesting that you say I am making up the narrative when you somehow have "Toriyama's Broly plot script" that definitively dictates Broli (at least SS) is stronger SSBKKx20/SSBE. Realistically, it wouldn't be hard to change that Goku was going SSBKKx20 in burst against SS Broli just like in his first fight with Geran.
No I'm stating facts. The plot has Goku and Vegeta lose to Broly and beat him with Gogeta. So no matter which version of Blue they use from any medium it has to adhere to Toriyama's plot of Broly being too much for Goku and Vegeta to the extreme point they have to fuse. Jiren isn't a future opponent when he already was in the TOP and BEATEN by Goku. Unlike Beerus whom Goku lost to. You are contradicting the story.
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

User avatar
Helios518
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 879
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:42 pm
Location: Not where you think

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:44 pm

Miracles wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:30 pm
Helios518 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:13 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:04 pm

I'm sorry, you don't go making up your own narration. It has to be stated that Jiren is a future opponent for Goku. Which is impossible since Goku already BEAT Jiren, which was stated.

Secondly, doesn't matter if it was a significant gain or not. Broly arc Goku/Vegeta are still stronger than their TOP versions. Even if it's by a hair. Toriyama's Broly plot script has Goku and Vegeta lose in Blue and win in fusion. That means TOEI's SSBE/BlueKKX20 as well as Toyotaor's MSSB/SSBE will have to forfeit in order to fit Gogeta in. It's all about Toriyama's plot dictating the power structure.
1) I'm not making my own narrative, I looking at what the show is simply displaying. Goku "beat" Geran is the same as how Goku "mastered" UI. Both were flukes in ToP. No one with a fair mindset (especially Goku) would be satisfied winning through a fluke.

2) It's interesting that you say I am making up the narrative when you somehow have "Toriyama's Broly plot script" that definitively dictates Broli (at least SS) is stronger SSBKKx20/SSBE. Realistically, it wouldn't be hard to change that Goku was going SSBKKx20 in burst against SS Broli just like in his first fight with Geran.
No I'm stating facts. The plot has Goku and Vegeta lose to Broly and beat him with Gogeta. So no matter which version of Blue they use from any medium it has to adhere to Toriyama's plot of Broly being too much for Goku and Vegeta to the extreme point they have to fuse. Jiren isn't a future opponent when he already was in the TOP and BEATEN by Goku. Unlike Beerus whom Goku lost to. You are contradicting the story.
1. A Goku and Vegeta that only used 5% of their power lost to Broli. Never in the movie did they go full-power.

2. I am not contradicting the story when I'm saying "Goku "beat" Geran is the same as how Goku "mastered" UI. Both were flukes in ToP."
Why I use "Geran" instead of "Jiren"

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 2567
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:49 pm

Helios518 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:44 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:30 pm
Helios518 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:13 pm


1) I'm not making my own narrative, I looking at what the show is simply displaying. Goku "beat" Geran is the same as how Goku "mastered" UI. Both were flukes in ToP. No one with a fair mindset (especially Goku) would be satisfied winning through a fluke.

2) It's interesting that you say I am making up the narrative when you somehow have "Toriyama's Broly plot script" that definitively dictates Broli (at least SS) is stronger SSBKKx20/SSBE. Realistically, it wouldn't be hard to change that Goku was going SSBKKx20 in burst against SS Broli just like in his first fight with Geran.
No I'm stating facts. The plot has Goku and Vegeta lose to Broly and beat him with Gogeta. So no matter which version of Blue they use from any medium it has to adhere to Toriyama's plot of Broly being too much for Goku and Vegeta to the extreme point they have to fuse. Jiren isn't a future opponent when he already was in the TOP and BEATEN by Goku. Unlike Beerus whom Goku lost to. You are contradicting the story.
1. A Goku and Vegeta that only used 5% of their power lost to Broli. Never in the movie did they go full-power.

2. I am not contradicting the story when I'm saying "Goku "beat" Geran is the same as how Goku "mastered" UI. Both were flukes in ToP."
What you think is a "fluke" doesn't change the fact that Jiren was an opponent that Goku already beat.
Where did you get this Goku and vegeta only used "5%" of their power and never went full power?
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

User avatar
Helios518
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 879
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:42 pm
Location: Not where you think

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:53 pm

Miracles wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:49 pm
Helios518 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:44 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:30 pm

No I'm stating facts. The plot has Goku and Vegeta lose to Broly and beat him with Gogeta. So no matter which version of Blue they use from any medium it has to adhere to Toriyama's plot of Broly being too much for Goku and Vegeta to the extreme point they have to fuse. Jiren isn't a future opponent when he already was in the TOP and BEATEN by Goku. Unlike Beerus whom Goku lost to. You are contradicting the story.
1. A Goku and Vegeta that only used 5% of their power lost to Broli. Never in the movie did they go full-power.

2. I am not contradicting the story when I'm saying "Goku "beat" Geran is the same as how Goku "mastered" UI. Both were flukes in ToP."
What you think is a "fluke" doesn't change the fact that Jiren was an opponent that Goku already beat.
Where did you get this Goku and vegeta only used "5%" of their power and never went full power?
1. In that case, Goku shouldn't be striving for UI because he already "mastered" it.

2. SSBKKx20 is Goku's full-power. 100/20 = 5%, which would be SSB Goku.
Why I use "Geran" instead of "Jiren"

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 2567
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:11 pm

Helios518 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:53 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:49 pm
Helios518 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:44 pm


1. A Goku and Vegeta that only used 5% of their power lost to Broli. Never in the movie did they go full-power.

2. I am not contradicting the story when I'm saying "Goku "beat" Geran is the same as how Goku "mastered" UI. Both were flukes in ToP."
What you think is a "fluke" doesn't change the fact that Jiren was an opponent that Goku already beat.
Where did you get this Goku and vegeta only used "5%" of their power and never went full power?
1. In that case, Goku shouldn't be striving for UI because he already "mastered" it.

2. SSBKKx20 is Goku's full-power. 100/20 = 5%, which would be SSB Goku.
Again your forgetting, In Toriyama's movies there is no BlueKK. So where does it say in the PLOT they aren't going full power against Broly?
Also, Jiren is not in the same class as Beerus being the GOALPOST for Goku. Goku already overcame Jiren. He did not surpass Beerus yet.
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

User avatar
Helios518
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 879
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:42 pm
Location: Not where you think

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:56 pm

Miracles wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:11 pm
Helios518 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:53 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:49 pm

What you think is a "fluke" doesn't change the fact that Jiren was an opponent that Goku already beat.
Where did you get this Goku and vegeta only used "5%" of their power and never went full power?
1. In that case, Goku shouldn't be striving for UI because he already "mastered" it.

2. SSBKKx20 is Goku's full-power. 100/20 = 5%, which would be SSB Goku.
Again your forgetting, In Toriyama's movies there is no BlueKK. So where does it say in the PLOT they aren't going full power against Broly?
Also, Jiren is not in the same class as Beerus being the GOALPOST for Goku. Goku already overcame Jiren. He did not surpass Beerus yet.
1. If the movie is in the either continuity (anime or manga), then Goku and Vegeta have forms above SSB. If the movie isn't in either continuity, then it's not canon.

2. Beating someone once through a fluke is hardly surpassing them permanently. It's like playing someone in a sport, they beat you 10 times consecutively, and you only win once, you're not going to say you're better than them.
Why I use "Geran" instead of "Jiren"

User avatar
Koitsukai
Regular
Posts: 550
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:07 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:14 pm
How much stronger do you guys suppose Ultra Instinct and HP Jiren are than SSB Fusion?

I've seen a lot of things thrown around. Exactly the same level, weaker, slightly stronger, dozens of times stronger, and even hundreds of times stronger.

Personally, I think the truth is somewhere between slightly and dozens.

Warning, Headcanon ahead:

If we were to follow SSB fusion's growth, then FT arc Vegito(along with MZ) was already done for by E109 according to Shin, or 1st Omen if we are lenient, so how much stronger did the boys in blue get from one arc to the other? not that much, SSB Goku stalemated with Golden Freeza, so he didn't become that much stronger from RoF to ToP, pretty much all of DBS, it took him 70 episodes to close the gap with Golden Freeza and maybe not even because he lost the blue while Freeza didn't lose the Golden(who just trained his mind). ToP Vegito shouldn't be much stronger than FT Vegito.
But taking into account the huge gains during the tournament, late ToP SSB fusion could be rivalling Omen/Jiren, making SSB fusion definitely Hakaishin level. Huge growth going from E110-ish to E129 due to saiyans pushing their limits on and on.

MUI effortlessly treated 100% Jiren like a house pet (like Jiren vs KKx20 Goku?) Their final forms have to be at least 10-20 times stronger than E129, I can't see MUI being less than that after that casual stomping, and Jiren matched that and surpassed it until Goku ruled.

Post ToP Goku and Vegeta should be stronger, though low-growth seems to be the norm in DBS, therefore no way they are 10-20 times stronger, that didn't happen in 70 episodes, it did at the ToP because of extraordinary circumstances, if that would become the norm then Beerus would be looking for a job within the first four episodes of DBS 2.
If Gogeta were to be a ToP bronze medalist, by the movie he should be stronger but not with such a huge growth like during the ToP.

I started this reply thinking Gogeta was slightly stronger than Jiren, but after following his growth I believe he is somewhat behind Jiren (what does the HP stands for?) I guess now I agree with you, somewhere between 5-10x stronger than the fusion I'd say.
It depends on how much stronger the saiyans got after the ToP, I just don't believe they got strong enough for their fusion to get the boost MUI gave Omen.

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 2567
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:20 am

Helios518 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:56 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:11 pm
Helios518 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:53 pm


1. In that case, Goku shouldn't be striving for UI because he already "mastered" it.

2. SSBKKx20 is Goku's full-power. 100/20 = 5%, which would be SSB Goku.
Again your forgetting, In Toriyama's movies there is no BlueKK. So where does it say in the PLOT they aren't going full power against Broly?
Also, Jiren is not in the same class as Beerus being the GOALPOST for Goku. Goku already overcame Jiren. He did not surpass Beerus yet.
1. If the movie is in the either continuity (anime or manga), then Goku and Vegeta have forms above SSB. If the movie isn't in either continuity, then it's not canon.

2. Beating someone once through a fluke is hardly surpassing them permanently. It's like playing someone in a sport, they beat you 10 times consecutively, and you only win once, you're not going to say you're better than them.
Goku beating Jiren by a fluke is your headcanon. The fact is he beat Jiren, was stated through Beerus.
The Broly movie is only in movie form. The anime and manga has nothing to do with Broly right now. Please show me where it stated that they were not using full power?
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2021
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:20 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:07 am
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:14 pm
How much stronger do you guys suppose Ultra Instinct and HP Jiren are than SSB Fusion?

I've seen a lot of things thrown around. Exactly the same level, weaker, slightly stronger, dozens of times stronger, and even hundreds of times stronger.

Personally, I think the truth is somewhere between slightly and dozens.

Warning, Headcanon ahead:

If we were to follow SSB fusion's growth, then FT arc Vegito(along with MZ) was already done for by E109 according to Shin, or 1st Omen if we are lenient, so how much stronger did the boys in blue get from one arc to the other? not that much, SSB Goku stalemated with Golden Freeza, so he didn't become that much stronger from RoF to ToP, pretty much all of DBS, it took him 70 episodes to close the gap with Golden Freeza and maybe not even because he lost the blue while Freeza didn't lose the Golden(who just trained his mind). ToP Vegito shouldn't be much stronger than FT Vegito.
But taking into account the huge gains during the tournament, late ToP SSB fusion could be rivalling Omen/Jiren, making SSB fusion definitely Hakaishin level. Huge growth going from E110-ish to E129 due to saiyans pushing their limits on and on.

MUI effortlessly treated 100% Jiren like a house pet (like Jiren vs KKx20 Goku?) Their final forms have to be at least 10-20 times stronger than E129, I can't see MUI being less than that after that casual stomping, and Jiren matched that and surpassed it until Goku ruled.

Post ToP Goku and Vegeta should be stronger, though low-growth seems to be the norm in DBS, therefore no way they are 10-20 times stronger, that didn't happen in 70 episodes, it did at the ToP because of extraordinary circumstances, if that would become the norm then Beerus would be looking for a job within the first four episodes of DBS 2.
If Gogeta were to be a ToP bronze medalist, by the movie he should be stronger but not with such a huge growth like during the ToP.

I started this reply thinking Gogeta was slightly stronger than Jiren, but after following his growth I believe he is somewhat behind Jiren (what does the HP stands for?) I guess now I agree with you, somewhere between 5-10x stronger than the fusion I'd say.
It depends on how much stronger the saiyans got after the ToP, I just don't believe they got strong enough for their fusion to get the boost MUI gave Omen.
I use HP to refer to "Hidden Power" a.k.a. the power Jiren displayed that surpassed even if potentially GoD-surpassing full power.

Anyways, pretty interesting thoughts. It's a good difference. Not too high, not too low.

User avatar
wolflonnie
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 286
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:57 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by wolflonnie » Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:53 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:07 am
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:14 pm
How much stronger do you guys suppose Ultra Instinct and HP Jiren are than SSB Fusion?

I've seen a lot of things thrown around. Exactly the same level, weaker, slightly stronger, dozens of times stronger, and even hundreds of times stronger.

Personally, I think the truth is somewhere between slightly and dozens.

Warning, Headcanon ahead:

-snip-
There is one flaw with your reasoning: Golden Frieza got A LOT stronger via mind training, which not only eliminated the stamina issue the form had, but also increased the Ki (so the power) of the form. Notice the fact that Goku is surprised, almost scared, when Frieza transforms into Golden during the Baba palace invasion.
Remember Goku and Vegeta had to deal with Black, who was stronger, at first, than them, but then Vegeta became stronger than him, and Goku closed the gap after the arc. Not to mention, in the U6 arc Goku had to use KKx10 to beat Hit, while he was confortable doing so in his SSB form in their rematch.
So the SSB saiyans HAVE got stronger, by quite a bit, and Golden Frieza as well. From somehow stronger than a fresh SSB, to definitely stronger than SSR Black.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 3102
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:56 am

Helios518 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:32 pm
Again, this is a matter of evidence from the series. If I’m going by your logic, then I could spout some unbacked non-sense like Goku is an infinite-dimensional multiverse buster, then I’ll say *you* have to prove me wrong. See that doesn’t make sense because the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. In this case, you’re making the claim that Omega could destroy the universe with a few punches, and it’s on you to provide evidence from the series that is true.

Those similarities aren’t 1-to-1 either. We know that SSG jumps Goku from Solar System level to Universe level, which is an astronomical jump. SS4 jumps Goku from Solar System level to some where under a guy who tries to destroy a Universe but can’t accomplish that in a reasonable time.
I’m not making absolutes, I’m criticizing folks that can’t see how ridiculous these demands for evidence are in these discussions. I’m just saying that if SSGod can do universal threatening stuff, why it would be out if the realm of SS4 to do that. There is precedence for stronger forms to have “lackluster” feats in comparison to what SSGod did, which is totally optional for the writer. And this is purely my opinion. I think it is much more reasonable to compare characters with characters than with feats. As one can compare Broli’s savage form with SS4, since both use the power of Great Ape.

User avatar
Helios518
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 879
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:42 pm
Location: Not where you think

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:01 am

Miracles wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:20 am
Helios518 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:56 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:11 pm

Again your forgetting, In Toriyama's movies there is no BlueKK. So where does it say in the PLOT they aren't going full power against Broly?
Also, Jiren is not in the same class as Beerus being the GOALPOST for Goku. Goku already overcame Jiren. He did not surpass Beerus yet.
1. If the movie is in the either continuity (anime or manga), then Goku and Vegeta have forms above SSB. If the movie isn't in either continuity, then it's not canon.

2. Beating someone once through a fluke is hardly surpassing them permanently. It's like playing someone in a sport, they beat you 10 times consecutively, and you only win once, you're not going to say you're better than them.
Goku beating Jiren by a fluke is your headcanon. The fact is he beat Jiren, was stated through Beerus.
The Broly movie is only in movie form. The anime and manga has nothing to do with Broly right now. Please show me where it stated that they were not using full power?
1) If it wasn't a fluke, can current Goku go up to Geran, and beat him consistently?

2) Simple, Goku and Vegeta wasn't using SSBKKx20 and SSBE, respectively. Toriyama may more influence in it, but Toei was still in charge for the overall production for the film, and it's clear that it's supposed to be a continuation of their ToP arc as well.
Why I use "Geran" instead of "Jiren"

User avatar
Helios518
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 879
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:42 pm
Location: Not where you think

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:17 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:56 am
Helios518 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:32 pm
Again, this is a matter of evidence from the series. If I’m going by your logic, then I could spout some unbacked non-sense like Goku is an infinite-dimensional multiverse buster, then I’ll say *you* have to prove me wrong. See that doesn’t make sense because the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. In this case, you’re making the claim that Omega could destroy the universe with a few punches, and it’s on you to provide evidence from the series that is true.

Those similarities aren’t 1-to-1 either. We know that SSG jumps Goku from Solar System level to Universe level, which is an astronomical jump. SS4 jumps Goku from Solar System level to some where under a guy who tries to destroy a Universe but can’t accomplish that in a reasonable time.
I’m not making absolutes, I’m criticizing folks that can’t see how ridiculous these demands for evidence are in these discussions. I’m just saying that if SSGod can do universal threatening stuff, why it would be out if the realm of SS4 to do that. There is precedence for stronger forms to have “lackluster” feats in comparison to what SSGod did, which is totally optional for the writer. And this is purely my opinion. I think it is much more reasonable to compare characters with characters than with feats. As one can compare Broli’s savage form with SS4, since both use the power of Great Ape.
I guess it's possible for Toei to confirmed that SS4 can do it and Omega was taking his sweet time and would never resort to it. But comparing feats isn't ridiculous for comparing characters. If a person told you they could run 50mph, would you believe them? Doubt it, you would ask them to show they can do that or in other words, display the feat to prove it to you. Of course, if for some reason you can't see the feat for yourself, then the next big thing is to confirm it is with credible sources. You see what I'm saying?

Also, sure you can compare the Wrathful form to SS4 for that reason, but they're forms from exclusively different continuities, it would be like comparing new Broli's SSFP with old Broli's LSS. Wrathful is also below SS while SS4 is above 3.
Last edited by Helios518 on Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
Why I use "Geran" instead of "Jiren"

User avatar
Grand Marshal 1
Regular
Posts: 564
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:33 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:32 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:56 am
Helios518 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:32 pm
Again, this is a matter of evidence from the series. If I’m going by your logic, then I could spout some unbacked non-sense like Goku is an infinite-dimensional multiverse buster, then I’ll say *you* have to prove me wrong. See that doesn’t make sense because the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. In this case, you’re making the claim that Omega could destroy the universe with a few punches, and it’s on you to provide evidence from the series that is true.

Those similarities aren’t 1-to-1 either. We know that SSG jumps Goku from Solar System level to Universe level, which is an astronomical jump. SS4 jumps Goku from Solar System level to some where under a guy who tries to destroy a Universe but can’t accomplish that in a reasonable time.
I’m not making absolutes, I’m criticizing folks that can’t see how ridiculous these demands for evidence are in these discussions. I’m just saying that if SSGod can do universal threatening stuff, why it would be out if the realm of SS4 to do that. There is precedence for stronger forms to have “lackluster” feats in comparison to what SSGod did, which is totally optional for the writer. And this is purely my opinion. I think it is much more reasonable to compare characters with characters than with feats. As one can compare Broli’s savage form with SS4, since both use the power of Great Ape.
It isn't out of the realm of possibility. But as I have repeatedly stated some times, GT lacks feats. Even if we use feats and statements made in GT, they are absolutely nothing to Super. Not saying that we exclude the probability of Omega or SSJ4s reaching such levels of power, but even if we nerf SSJG's power in comparison to it's feats (which aren't an ordinary display of power but something greater), then the same applies to SSJ4 and it's feats.

As of now, SSJG seems to have raised the bar substantially higher than SSJ4. This is what we get from comparing the 2,which is false as both are entirely different, but for the sake of power scaling we must.

Now if I use MY HEADCANNON then GT Goku would only be equivalent to SSJ Buu saga Goku. His SSJ3, 8 times stronger than his max against Kid Buu. Apply this logic, with Baby being 8 times stronger and using the ×4,000 multiplier for SSJ4 (after research I changed my multiplier to this) and even if we use Ultra Full Power SSJ4, he gets twice as strong for an 8,000 times increase in Base.

Say that BoG Goku is just twice as strong as Buu saga Goku. This means he is 25 times weaker than GT Base Goku. With my SSJG multiplier of 12,500 he would be 3 times stronger than a SSJ4, but Baby saga Goku would be 25 times stronger in base. Subsequently, despite his Base being multiplied by 4,000 times, he would be exactly 8 times stronger than Super Saiyan God BoG Goku. The same God that nearly destroyed the universe. So yeah, as I said it can happen, I am not disregarding the fact.

However, if we take into account same Base form levels, then God is a superior form. I hardly think that there were any Zenkais in GT. Perhaps none. Nothing indicated growth in power. And it was Goku that we used as a measuring stick. Again MY HEADCANNON, but let's give the benefit of the doubt to the series and say that Shadow Dragons Base Goku was twice as strong as Baby Base Goku, who was SSJ Buu saga Goku level. Or, now, SSJ2 Buu saga Goku level. Or 50 times stronger than a Base BoG Goku (as Base BoG is 2× end of Buu saga Base Goku)

So, Syn Shenron being equal to SSJ4 Goku of that time, would be roughly 4,000 times stronger than SD Goku. God Goku is only 12,500 times stronger than his Base, or 25,000 times than his Buu saga Base. But SD Base Goku is 400,000 times stronger than Buu saga Base Goku, or 200,000 times stronger than BoG Base Goku. This SSJ4 is 16 times stronger than God BoG Goku. And UFP SSJ4 is twice as strong. And Omega Shenron is 10 times stronger than SSJ4. So he would be around 160 times stronger than God Goku from BoG.

A very big difference indeed. But since I have my head cannon mixed, let's keep going. By Resurrection F, Goku and Vegeta grew in Base by 20 times. Why? Simple. Trained Freeza at his Final Form probably closed the gap in power of those years and even created a "Namek difference" in power. His 50% Final Form being 20 times stronger than the hypothetical non-trained Bases of Goku and Vegeta. But the 2 trained with Whis and not only learned how to maintain Ki control and their energy from leaking, but they also experienced God powers which have them a boost in strength. And Base Goku actaully had the upper hand against Freeza. So, he should be at a level of 20+ times stronger than his Base in BoG, which would probably remain the same by Resurrection F.

A Resurrection F God Goku would be 20 times stronger than BoG God Goku. Closing the gap with Omega Shenron to only the Dragon being 8 times stronger. Base Resurrection F Goku is only 2.5 times weaker than SD Base Goku. So, SD SSJ4 Goku is in the realm of 10,000× Base RF Goku. Very near to his 12,500 SSJG multiplier. With UFP always being a double. So, here is where we get a stalemate with Super Goku and GT Goku in the two respective forms. Blue Goku, with a 5×God for me, is a good match for SD SSJ4 Goku and he would even push him to UFP. A close battle, but in the favor of Super Goku. Pretty much like what Heroes established I AM NOT SAYING THAT XENO GOKU IS GT GOKU.

Anyway, passing the Tournament of the Destroyers and perhaps the Copy Vegeta arc, I only give Goku and Vegeta a ×2 boost in Base, with the rest 5 times boost of their Base happening in the FT arc (considering that Goku went from using Blue KK×10 on Hit, standard Blue. I am lowballing as it was also a stronger Hit, but for the sake of simplicity I put him at the same level as before).

Now, Goku in Base is as powerful as GT Shadow Dragons saga Base Goku. Subsequently, God Goku is 3 times stronger than a SSJ4 Goku of the same power, due to the multipliers. Omega is roughly 2.5 times stronger than this God Goku. Blue Goku takes him with ease. Half-way through the Black arc, Goku in God is pretty much stronger than Omega. This is when, Omega is around 70% of God's power. Not very relevant to the fights.

Anyway, my point remains the same. As forms, God is stronger than 4. Omega is a bit tricky to calculate and I was being generous when I said that SD Base Goku is 100 times stronger than Buu Saga Base Goku. He might have even stayed in the same level for the entire GT, only growing stronger while in SSJ4 by unlocking his potential and when dropping in Base, losing that power.

If I use this data, then Omega is surpassed by the beginning of the FT arc by God Goku. SD Base Goku is by extension, equal to Super Goku in Base as of Resurrection F.

This is how I place GT's final arc in Super. As stated initially, 4 has great capabilities. Could defeat BoG God. But, as a form, God is superior. GT was being outclassed by the early-mid Super. Point is, that the feats of Super suggest amazing growth in power. I personally don't use the universal destroying feat, because as I said feats aren't normal displays of power. But I think I made evident what I consider of the entire situation.

Super became that impressive boost phase. GT was kinda more grounded.
My posts will speak for myself! :)

User avatar
Koitsukai
Regular
Posts: 550
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:48 pm

wolflonnie wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:53 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:07 am
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:14 pm
How much stronger do you guys suppose Ultra Instinct and HP Jiren are than SSB Fusion?

I've seen a lot of things thrown around. Exactly the same level, weaker, slightly stronger, dozens of times stronger, and even hundreds of times stronger.

Personally, I think the truth is somewhere between slightly and dozens.

Warning, Headcanon ahead:

-snip-
There is one flaw with your reasoning: Golden Frieza got A LOT stronger via mind training, which not only eliminated the stamina issue the form had, but also increased the Ki (so the power) of the form. Notice the fact that Goku is surprised, almost scared, when Frieza transforms into Golden during the Baba palace invasion.
Remember Goku and Vegeta had to deal with Black, who was stronger, at first, than them, but then Vegeta became stronger than him, and Goku closed the gap after the arc. Not to mention, in the U6 arc Goku had to use KKx10 to beat Hit, while he was confortable doing so in his SSB form in their rematch.
So the SSB saiyans HAVE got stronger, by quite a bit, and Golden Frieza as well. From somehow stronger than a fresh SSB, to definitely stronger than SSR Black.
I considered that. But I felt Goku was surprised because that overwhelming power was now under Freeza's belt, he thought he was wasting energy by using the golden form. Also I don't think you can get stronger in hell, it would be a huge plothole, besides Freeza only boasted about his improved stamina, so how I see it Freeza now can use that power at full capacity which would be higher than first shown. But let's say he got stronger in hell, still don't see it being by a huge margin. Golden Freeza was already way stronger than SSBlue in RoF, he could've killed him but wanted to taste his revenge, time passed and now are equals, still within blue tier, SSBKK would tame him. The name, Shin Golden Freeza also makes me think he is just RoF at his best, truest self.

I'm not saying they didn't get stronger, just not like they did during the ToP or from Cell to Buu arc. They did in a way that it took them several trips to the future and were defeated every time except for the last one and still wasn't that much stronger than SSR, Black pulled out the Scythe and balanced the fight. Before that arc, they trained 3 years in the Space Time Chamber, Vegeta went another time to defeat Black, I believe they acclimated to the form and fully controlled it, in order to also safely use KK by the end of DBS. They trained a lot but the gains aren't so clear, Goku spent 3 years in the ST chamber, should be much stronger than dead Golden Freeza IMO, but they were evenly matched with Freeza still transformed by the end.

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 2567
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:18 pm

Helios518 wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:01 am
Miracles wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:20 am
Helios518 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:56 pm


1. If the movie is in the either continuity (anime or manga), then Goku and Vegeta have forms above SSB. If the movie isn't in either continuity, then it's not canon.

2. Beating someone once through a fluke is hardly surpassing them permanently. It's like playing someone in a sport, they beat you 10 times consecutively, and you only win once, you're not going to say you're better than them.
Goku beating Jiren by a fluke is your headcanon. The fact is he beat Jiren, was stated through Beerus.
The Broly movie is only in movie form. The anime and manga has nothing to do with Broly right now. Please show me where it stated that they were not using full power?
1) If it wasn't a fluke, can current Goku go up to Geran, and beat him consistently?

2) Simple, Goku and Vegeta wasn't using SSBKKx20 and SSBE, respectively. Toriyama may more influence in it, but Toei was still in charge for the overall production for the film, and it's clear that it's supposed to be a continuation of their ToP arc as well.
My friend, SSBE and BlueKKX20 were stated to be TOEI original ONLY forms. Toriyama's true canon only has Goku and Vegeta go up to Blue. The Broly movie did not exclusively continue from the anime but generally continued from the TOP story wise. Hence why there is no BlueKK.

Goku beat Jiren with his own power. That isn't a fluke but a fact. Regardless if Goku can't access such power now it's proven that the power Goku has IS greater than Jiren. Goku didn't beat Jiren cause he slipped on a banana peel but outright mastered a form for a moment with intention and went upside Jiren's head. This was all done on purpose not by accident.
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

HeroR
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7737
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:28 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:22 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:17 pm
HeroR wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:57 pm
ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:07 pm

My theory is that Freeza in order to eliminate the strain of his Golden form he reduced the multiplier.

Think of it like in RoF he used SSG2 and in the ToP he used SS.

That's the only way I can explained this.
In Dragon Ball when a form is mastered it usually gets stronger, not weaker. That and dropped has to sizable to say Gold and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan are even multipliers now, when Gold took Freeza from noticeably inferior to dominate, especially in the retelling.
Just because he hasn't happend doesn't mean it can't.

Fact is Golden Freeza did decrease his multiplier and assuming he overclocked his transformation in RoF but not in the ToP explains things nicely.
How would mastering a form decrease the multiplier? Also, Golden Freeza was overclocked, it just has bad stamina like Super Saiyan 3. As Goku said, Freeza didn't master the form.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

HeroR
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7737
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:28 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:23 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:06 am
Until I see real feats from FP SS Broly, I'm not buying he is stronger than Jiren. We can argue all year long, the fact remains the same: Jiren almost defeats MUI Goku, the guy that had all the GoDs standing up in awe and Beerus clenching his teeth out of envy. Actually MUI wasn't enough to ring him out or knock him out cold. It took three guys together to take him out after that beating!

While Broly, well, he is still wondering how could he ever lay hands on a non-UI dude. If they really wanted to portray FPSS Broly as the new boss, then they could've let him land at least 1 (one) blow, right? but FPSS Broly landed 0(zero) blows against SSB Gogeta. Zero. Not even one. That was the most uneven fight I've seen in a long time, I wanted Broly to hit Gogeta at least once, I felt sorry for him, really.
If FPSS Broly put up a fight instead of being an angry punching ball, then yes, I would probably say Jiren has no chance. Or if they had Goku say something much clearer than MAYBE stronger than Beerus.

On the other hand, Jiren is clearly stronger than his GoD who was said to be stronger than Beerus. And who knows Beerus better? Whis or us? I'm not that arrogant to question a teacher talking about his student just so I can be right, Beerus is stated to be inferior to Belmond in physical strenght, at best they are the same tier, and Jiren is out of Belmond's league by the time the ToP ended. One can feel free to argue Whis's statement, I won't be taking part of that. So, statements alone put Jiren above Broly.
That seems more because Goku didn't want to since Goku went to talk to Jiren. He could have easily blown Jiren out of the ring with that last Kamehameha, but he purposely didn't.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

Post Reply