"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Tai Lung]

after watching again ..

genuinely ... I enjoyed the comedy of jako and the king galactic and too ... toyotaro has kept the character's appearance in the original manga only fails in coherence ..
the drawing is good in general of planets or races BUT ...

anyway the problems of moro arc are obvious
-moro is a villain boring. and it does not seem that that is going to change just try to be the king piccolo but he failing terribly unfortunately, his powers are still is just sucking energy for a magician is very limited ..
-Merus ... is too perfect ... and seriously upset me where he was when frieza was alive? and as much as he have the UI it would remain absurd as much as it was roshi time ago
-The prisoners are not interesting ... they are just a bunch of weak and ambitious guys that "that" is part of the Moro's plan to beat goku SSB and vegeta SSB ... "it hurts" seriously "hurts" a lot .. .
Why use prisoners in the first place? .... because not only he invoke creatures based on elements such as dragons or gargolas
whatever ... IT IS A MAGICIAN .. you can do whatever you want with that ... the limit is the imagination you have
-goku still seems out of place here ... I have no idea how UI will help him not lose energy ... I think that's the only interesting thing
- Toyo stayed in 1999? Yeah .., the planet Yadrat was a mystery in its time, however considering that Goku never returned to that planet to learn something new ... in retrospect that decision makes no sense, they were weak subjects and Goku never considered them at all after not even for the tournament of power .. sincerely toyo should think more about the current fan and not the one from years ago ... besides that vegeta never wanted to learn the techniques of goku.
-the events to extend the plot are not good .. it all is sums up that goku and vegeta are not able to hit hard to Moro before he take their energy again,again and Again
- And to all this that Moro is not supposed to be affecting the level of mortality?

the moro arc would feel better if ..
-it would have been located before the BOG arc
-a story of the galactic patrol without goku and vegeta
-it would have been located in another universe

how long till people realize this Saga is actually not all that good? compared to the Tournament of Power it's great but to The Future Trunks Saga it's like whatever I feel like the pacing in the FT Saga was better

I personally see this as the best arc in super (broly excluded) simply because it’s interesting and draws me back in each chapter and gives me something to look forward too. The Goku black arc was really good throughout but that ending is almost so bad it ruins the whole arc for me. The tournament of power arc is just bad. Nothing more said.

It depends ... on what you are talking about if it is Top manga so yes ... and just because Toyo ruined it ...

[ahill1]

Reading Vegeta's dialogue again in which he speaks about his plans, I don't think he even has a planned technique to use. He said they employ many techniques, so it appears to be a gamble on his part, in hoping there's an ability that could prove to be useful.

[batistabus]

Chances are Toyotaro knows how big of a question he just raised and already has an answer for it.

This is exactly right, and this has been the case since the manga first started coming out. People have their problems with Toyotaro, and that's fine, but month after month, this same thing happens. Something weird happens in a chapter, people freak out and call Toyotaro incompetent, it's explained next month, nobody acknowledges that they overreacted, and the cycle continues. Even if you give Toyotaro no benefit of the doubt and he really did screw something up, the nature of Dragon Ball allows the author to course-correct on the fly (just as Toriyama has always done).

Aside from twists and turns, there are things that are plainly stated or shown in the manga that plenty of people seem to miss. There's a lot of reasons for this, but I think it's partially due to popular Youtubers who try to produce some sort of reaction video as soon as physically possible without taking the time to carefully read and digest what they've read (also...half of these guys seem to make their "reviews" based on leaks without translations and then touch them up once the full chapter comes out, but that's besides the point...). This is particularly unfortunate since Dragon Ball is, in general, a very straight-forward work.

What ahill1 mentioned is a perfect example of this. I also believe that is the intended interpretation.

snip

Same to you! Haha, that is pretty funny.

I think Saganbo is fine on his own, but I think Dragon Ball villains work best when paired with interesting or quirky side-kicks. Cell is my least favorite adversary, and that probably contributes to why I feel that way. Piccolo had his offspring and the Pilaf Gang, Freeza had/has a reputation that everyone was wary of and reacted to accordingly, Beerus had Whis, the extra-universal fighters had the rest of their squad, Zamasu had...Zamasu, and Broly was being pulled in multiple directions. The villain that worked best without a sidekick was Majin Boo post-Bibiddi, but he's so chaotic and wacky that it makes up for it. Moro isn't quirky, Saganbo is quirky, and nobody seems to be afraid of anyone. It's an oddly professional and functional relationship for this series. I actually quite like the uniqueness and potential of that dynamic, but in terms of keeping things interesting page-to-page, we'll have to see how it holds up. I agree, I'm also looking forward to finding out more about his end goal...

[Lionel]

With the battle between Moro and the Galactic Patrol likely heading to Earth, and with the interaction between Goku and Merus suggesting that technique is more important than power, I think they're setting up the Z fighters to be recruited by the Galactic Patrol and become relevant again. I'd love to see a Galactic Patrol spin off series.

We could only be so lucky. Despite the comparatively dazzling focus on magic this chapter, we're not exactly seeing died-in-the-wool magic or technical types step up to the plate sans Dai Kaioshin. No, instead you've got Mr "self-made, let my fists do the talking" Saiyan Prince Vegeta heading off to Planet Yardrat to try his best at grasping something that's clearly outside his element. From a layperson's point of view, that sounds like trying to teach a fish to walk on land. Still, Toyotaro/Toriyama is going through with it anyway.

[Tai Lung]

another thing ... it seems that they try to make goku and vegeta look like 2 guys that only know transforms ... what happened to the techniques? What happened to the skill? I hope that the moro arc is not adapted to the anime because it would be very contradictory with all the characters with different techniques and skills that both faced before.

[HeroR]

Yes, most of Moro's abilities are used for battle (because that's how DB works).

But he is not overcoming Goku and Vegeta by strength. Vegeta himself said that Moro is weaker than an SSB, however his ability to absorb energy and the allies he released from prison make him able to turn the tables on them.

The power gap between Tenshinhan - Cell was infinitely larger than the Tenshinhan - Nappa gap, but he still managed to hold Cell second form (and even hurt him) long enough for Android 16 and 18 to escape the island.

So even when the gap is too large, it is still possible for someone weaker to excel by using techniques. In Saiyan arc, a 2x difference was enough to one shot the enemy. But that changed a lot after Freeza arc, so this example of Tenshinhan and Nappa is not so valid now

Again, reference Babidi about how you can do a magician type that isn’t fighting.

And you said it, stated out weaker than Blue and got stronger. That’s really no different from Black and Broly outside of Moro eating for his power. And his allies are fodder, so them turning the tables was forced.

And Tien damn near killed himself too.

It really didn’t changed after Freeza since techniques did shit to Cell and Goku only did so well because Cell held back.

But Moro is a fighter type too, the difference being that he uses magic but uses it in combat.

I am not saying that he is a wizard who uses only techniques to overcome physical strength. He is strong, but not as strong as Goku and Vegeta. Normally, the two together would destroy him. But Moro has techniques that allow him to overcome his enemies without necessarily being stronger. And the strategy he used with the Dragon Balls also helped

And indeed, his allies would normally be fodder. But Moro's techniques are precisely what make him and his allies capable of facing both Saiyans (Vegeta said that without Moro's help, even Kid Trunks could deal with Saganbo).

And I'm saying that since Freeza arc, a big difference in strength doesn't mean much, because special techniques like Kikoho and Makankosappo are capable of affecting much stronger beings. That's why Tenshinhan and Nappa's example is not so valid now

Except his supposed magic so far is just eating energy like Androids 19 and 20. He even stopped using his somewhat interesting planet energy manipulation after one fight. Which is weird since he had nothing but brute force for Buu, another example of a magical being with fighting ability making Moro even more lackluster in comparison.

That's really questionable when old feeble Moro was able to holdback Super Saiyan God Vegeta. So saying 'they would have destroyed him in a physical only fight' is based only on Vegeta's statements. And Moro only has one technique that allows him to win, and that draining energy. When that was negated, his got his ass beat by Buu.

Again, one technique, not techniques.

Those techniques is about overclocking yourself to pushed your power pass its limits. So it still comes down to 'meh, power level'. The only technique that is a real except is the Evil Containment Wave.

[HeroR]

At this point, I feel like Dragon Ball just hates Namek, it keeps genociding it's people and blowing it up.

Why do Moro's crew care about gathering resources? They're gonna be eaten and leading up to that what are they gonna need that shit for?

Every chapter always feels incomplete, as if the end of a chapter was cut to be the opening of the next.

That's an interesting point. Moro is like, you can have the money while I eat planets. So this open the question, do they realize if Moro eats the entire universe, there will be no place to spend their riches? Like being a billionaire after the world ends.

[HeroR]

another thing ... it seems that they try to make goku and vegeta look like 2 guys that only know transforms ... what happened to the techniques? What happened to the skill? I hope that the moro arc is not adapted to the anime because it would be very contradictory with all the characters with different techniques and skills that both faced before.

As a martial artist, Goku got regressed to where he's worst than he was in the original Dragon Ball. That and Whis is apparently a terrible teacher since he just taught his students to just transformed or something.

Even odder, I still don't get why Goku didn't think of the Evil Containment Wave since he thought of it to beat Zamasu in the manga. He just needs to teleport back to Earth and asked Roshi to make the tag for him.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Again, reference Babidi about how you can do a magician type that isn’t fighting.

And you said it, stated out weaker than Blue and got stronger. That’s really no different from Black and Broly outside of Moro eating for his power. And his allies are fodder, so them turning the tables was forced.

And Tien damn near killed himself too.

It really didn’t changed after Freeza since techniques did shit to Cell and Goku only did so well because Cell held back.

But Moro is a fighter type too, the difference being that he uses magic but uses it in combat.

I am not saying that he is a wizard who uses only techniques to overcome physical strength. He is strong, but not as strong as Goku and Vegeta. Normally, the two together would destroy him. But Moro has techniques that allow him to overcome his enemies without necessarily being stronger. And the strategy he used with the Dragon Balls also helped

And indeed, his allies would normally be fodder. But Moro's techniques are precisely what make him and his allies capable of facing both Saiyans (Vegeta said that without Moro's help, even Kid Trunks could deal with Saganbo).

And I'm saying that since Freeza arc, a big difference in strength doesn't mean much, because special techniques like Kikoho and Makankosappo are capable of affecting much stronger beings. That's why Tenshinhan and Nappa's example is not so valid now

Except his supposed magic so far is just eating energy like Androids 19 and 20. He even stopped using his somewhat interesting planet energy manipulation after one fight. Which is weird since he had nothing but brute force for Buu, another example of a magical being with fighting ability making Moro even more lackluster in comparison.

That's really questionable when old feeble Moro was able to holdback Super Saiyan God Vegeta. So saying 'they would have destroyed him in a physical only fight' is based only on Vegeta's statements. And Moro only has one technique that allows him to win, and that draining energy. When that was negated, his got his ass beat by Buu.

Again, one technique, not techniques.

Those techniques is about overclocking yourself to pushed your power pass its limits. So it still comes down to 'meh, power level'. The only technique that is a real except is the Evil Containment Wave.

You are just describing what you think of Moro's abilities, something that is not relevant to this discussion.

Vegeta / Goku were said to be able to defeat Moro in a direct fight. But Moro used a technique that made him able to beat them without being physically stronger, that's the point (which is why as you said, without this technique he was destroyed by Boo), no matter if most of his techniques they are used in battle or based on power (something I'm not denying).

He just needs to have a level of power comparable to his enemies to have a great advantage due to this technique. And Moro's energy absorption is infinitely better than Androids 19 and 20 (and that was barely exploited by them)

[HeroR]

But Moro is a fighter type too, the difference being that he uses magic but uses it in combat.

I am not saying that he is a wizard who uses only techniques to overcome physical strength. He is strong, but not as strong as Goku and Vegeta. Normally, the two together would destroy him. But Moro has techniques that allow him to overcome his enemies without necessarily being stronger. And the strategy he used with the Dragon Balls also helped

And indeed, his allies would normally be fodder. But Moro's techniques are precisely what make him and his allies capable of facing both Saiyans (Vegeta said that without Moro's help, even Kid Trunks could deal with Saganbo).

And I'm saying that since Freeza arc, a big difference in strength doesn't mean much, because special techniques like Kikoho and Makankosappo are capable of affecting much stronger beings. That's why Tenshinhan and Nappa's example is not so valid now

Except his supposed magic so far is just eating energy like Androids 19 and 20. He even stopped using his somewhat interesting planet energy manipulation after one fight. Which is weird since he had nothing but brute force for Buu, another example of a magical being with fighting ability making Moro even more lackluster in comparison.

That's really questionable when old feeble Moro was able to holdback Super Saiyan God Vegeta. So saying 'they would have destroyed him in a physical only fight' is based only on Vegeta's statements. And Moro only has one technique that allows him to win, and that draining energy. When that was negated, his got his ass beat by Buu.

Again, one technique, not techniques.

Those techniques is about overclocking yourself to pushed your power pass its limits. So it still comes down to 'meh, power level'. The only technique that is a real except is the Evil Containment Wave.

You are just describing what you think of Moro's abilities, something that is not relevant to this discussion.

Vegeta / Goku were said to be able to defeat Moro in a direct fight. But Moro used a technique that made him able to beat them without being physically stronger, that's the point (which is why as you said, without this technique he was destroyed by Boo), no matter if most of his techniques they are used in battle or based on power (something I'm not denying).

He just needs to have a level of power comparable to his enemies to have a great advantage due to this technique. And Moro's energy absorption is infinitely better than Androids 19 and 20 (and that was barely exploited by them)

He literally showed two magical abilities and one he doesn't even used anymore.

The problem here is that Moro is one-note and once his gimmick was worked around, he folded like a bunch of cards.

Honestly, it's only better because Androids 19 and 20 were dumber than even Moro.

[Gyt Kaliba]

So, I noticed something reading the latest chapter. When they go to Planet Zoon, we see a bunch of aliens there (Zoonians or whatever we'd call them, I guess). One of them looks more or less like Pui Pui of course, but the others all look like Babidi's basic foot soldiers. You know, these guys.



I...literally never realized those were supposed to be the same species as Pui Pui. Is that new information, or something we've known forever and I just somehow never caught on to?

[Tai Lung]

So, I noticed something reading the latest chapter. When they go to Planet Zoon, we see a bunch of aliens there (Zoonians or whatever we'd call them, I guess). One of them looks more or less like Pui Pui of course, but the others all look like Babidi's basic foot soldiers. You know, these guys.



I...literally never realized those were supposed to be the same species as Pui Pui. Is that new information, or something we've known forever and I just somehow never caught on to?

this was never said in the series ... but I think most of us assumed they were of the same race because of the similarity

[anubisj]

To be honest, I never assumed they were the same race; thought they had the same uniform because they were part of Babidi´s crew

[Miracles]

To people who have issue with Toyotaro and what he is doing with merus, I don't think you have much to worry about conserning an explanation. I remember that in the chapter where Moro got his wishes, people were asking why the dragon didn't disapear when cranberri killed moori. Then at the start of the next chapter, it was the first thing explained. Similar things have happened too.

Chances are Toyotaro knows how big of a question he just raised and already has an answer for it.

How about the overreaction about the character they are wondering about now in Merus?
Remember people were whining about how he was able to get the drop on Goku and Vegeta?
Well, his secret strength is being dived into even more from Vegeta's suspicions about him from the start.
Yet I don't remember anybody giving Toyotaro his props for that or apologize for hasty outrage.

[Miracles]

At this point, I feel like Dragon Ball just hates Namek, it keeps genociding it's people and blowing it up.

Why do Moro's crew care about gathering resources? They're gonna be eaten and leading up to that what are they gonna need that shit for?

Every chapter always feels incomplete, as if the end of a chapter was cut to be the opening of the next.

That's an interesting point. Moro is like, you can have the money while I eat planets. So this open the question, do they realize if Moro eats the entire universe, there will be no place to spend their riches? Like being a billionaire after the world ends.

Maybe that's what Moro is saying in a subtle way. They will need "valuable resources" once his ideals are realized.
In other words weapons to fight him with cause he is going to dispose of them in the end?

[Noah]

Vegeta taking his own initiative to deal with Moro? That's... good. Vegeta wanting to achieve victory over Goku? That's...ugh. That's the sort of regressive shit I saw in the early stages of the Tournament of Power and it's a shame that kind of character writing is rearing its ugly head again. One step forward, one step back.

Yep. And that sums up how his character has being treated ever since Super began. Don't know why you're still surprised. I accepted that Vegeta's motivation is always going to be like a dog chasing a car he'll never get close to.

The real question is why Meerus has joined the Galactic Patrol? So several possiblities:
Meerus is an angel of an destroyed universe? An fallen angel?

These are interesting bits... Hope they expand more about his origins.

That's anime canon, and doesn't even make sense in that context. This is a thread about the manga.

Except that the anime canon is the main canon of Super and the manga remains as side story fluff for entertainment/promotion.

Why do people want SS3 to be unusable? The stamina isn't an issue as an SS3 anymore for Goku, especially since SSB was outright stated to have a ridiculous stamina toll in the manga, and he managed to overcome that too.

Because is a freaking obsolete form? I get it that SSJ3 is somewhat cool, but it doesn't make sense to use nowadays, the same thing to SSJ2. Toyotaro should just kept with Toriyama thoughts about Goku only using SSJ, God and Blue which is more logical to the present days.

[Grimlock]

(...) it doesn't make sense to use nowadays, the same thing to SSJ2. Toyotaro should just kept with Toriyama thoughts about Goku only using SSJ, God and Blue which is more logical to the present days.

Why using a weaker form when you have a stronger one with no drawbacks?

[Noah]

(...) it doesn't make sense to use nowadays, the same thing to SSJ2. Toyotaro should just kept with Toriyama thoughts about Goku only using SSJ, God and Blue which is more logical to the present days.

Why using a weaker form when you have a stronger one with no drawbacks?

Because it was said from the man himself:

Goku endlessly keeps getting stronger, with Super Saiyan 3 in the manga and Super Saiyan 4 in the anime; does Super Saiyan keep getting limitlessly stronger too? Might we eventually see things such as a Super Saiyan 5…?!

Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.

This is from Saikyō Jump's June 2014 Issue translated here http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... mysteries/. Toriyama said after fighting Beerus that Goku realized that he's better off mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan rather than transforming into Super Saiyan 2 or 3. Which it could be mean those forms were obsolete and their power could be achievable in the normal Super Saiyan state.

Sure this is 5 years old, but I would prefer if they kept this way, even though I cannot complain about the love SSJ2 received throughout Super.

[batistabus]

That's anime canon, and doesn't even make sense in that context. This is a thread about the manga.

Except that the anime canon is the main canon of Super and the manga remains as side story fluff for entertainment/promotion.

Come on, now. At this point, this is just low-quality, antagonistic bait.

Not that this has anything to do with TKA's post, but if we're keeping track...

-The DBS manga has been called the "official sequel" to the original manga at least twice now. The anime has never been called that.

-Toyotaro and Toriyama are co-writing this arc with strong implications that Toyotaro is leading the charge. If the anime adapts this arc, they will - at the very least - be adapting the Toyo/Tori outline. At the moment, the manga is the only medium covering events post-Broly.

-It has been stated at least twice that Toyo is Tori's chosen successor. Dragon Ball is first and foremost a manga series, not an anime. The DBS anime started off as an adaptation of two films.

-Toriyama contributes actual drawings and dialogue to the manga. At best, he gives suggestions to the anime.

-Toriyama has never made a positive comment about the DBS anime series. Animation-wise, Toriyama has only complimented the DBS movies (including BoG), which Toyotaro has skipped 2/3 of. Toriyama has endorsed the DBS manga. I personally consider the movies and manga the true canon in part because Toriyama seems to view it that way.

-While the DBS manga started as a promo manga years ago, you'd be lying if you were to deny that it has turned into something much more substantial.

Etc.

Somewhat related, they are apparently coming out with some figures based on DBS manga panels:

Spoiler:

[Noah]

-The DBS manga has been called the "official sequel" to the original manga at least twice now. The anime has never been called that.

Yes it was: "Dragon Ball Super is a complete continuation of the Majin Boo story arc." - Akira Toriyama

Even though this statement was to just promote the new animated series, not related to a canon (as I disregard both), but in terms of sequel the anime is the main Super told story not the manga.

- Toyotaro and Toriyama are co-writing this arc with strong implications that Toyotaro is leading the charge. If the anime adapts this arc, they will - at the very least - be adapting the Toyo/Tori outline. At the moment, the manga is the only medium covering events post-Broly.

Which doesn't mean anything as the anime was always an independent production, the manga only has the lead now because Super (anime) is on hiatus.

- It has been stated at least twice that Toyo is Tori's chosen successor. Dragon Ball is first and foremost a manga series, not an anime. The DBS anime started off as an adaptation of two films.

Yes, but Dragon Ball was a weekly manga finished 24 years ago that had no continuation. The anime on the other hand had two, but Super is often considered to be the true sequel due Toriyama involvement and I won't deny that. Super manga it's published on V-Jump primarily known for video games and promotional products and we were told it was a "comicalization" from the start, from Toyotaro on the first chapter:

Getting to see a new DB anime series every week makes me too happy! With this comicalization, I want to make my own small contribution to the excitement, so everyone please check out the manga, too!

There are enough evidences that the anime unlike the manga is the main product.

- Toriyama contributes actual drawings and dialogue to the manga. At best, he gives suggestions to the anime.

Nope. He gives the same treatment to both as they were always adapted from his vague outlines. Explaining the difference between each.

- Toriyama has never made a positive comment about the DBS anime series. Animation-wise, Toriyama has only complimented the DBS movies (including BoG), which Toyotaro has skipped 2/3 of. Toriyama has endorsed the DBS manga. I personally consider the movies and manga the true canon in part because Toriyama seems to view it that way.

That again don't disgard the fact the Super initial project began in anime format, promoted by the man himself, admiting he would be part of it.

- While the DBS manga started as a promo manga years ago, you'd be lying if you were to deny that it has turned into something much more substantial.

I really don't see the substantial thing you're meaning, after the U6 arc, we had Toyotaro putting more effort on his storytelling, but still failing to grasp the charm the original had. It still feels like secondary stuff to read while the anime is not airing.