Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:59 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:22 pm
TheBigBoy wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:57 pm
I love being recognized for my hard work!!
I’m no Mod, but can we not make this a habit, you see what it turned into (which you might have been hoping for). Granted this is far from what it could turn into but still, no bueno man.

Side note: I was always against the notion of “ Tah Ha Da Piccolow iz blakk my G”.

To this day I don’t see how he corellates to me or my culture.

Cool character but he’s not the “black guy” of group.. None of the characters are.
Except maybe Uub...
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by goku the krump dancer » Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:21 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:59 pm
goku the krump dancer wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:22 pm
TheBigBoy wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:57 pm
I love being recognized for my hard work!!
I’m no Mod, but can we not make this a habit, you see what it turned into (which you might have been hoping for). Granted this is far from what it could turn into but still, no bueno man.

Side note: I was always against the notion of “ Tah Ha Da Piccolow iz blakk my G”.

To this day I don’t see how he corellates to me or my culture.

Cool character but he’s not the “black guy” of group.. None of the characters are.
Except maybe Uub...
Nah, he's indian/middle eastern, same with Nam and King Chappa.

There's literally only two black characters in Agent Black and Killa. Popo isnt black or even human he just looks like and talks like what Black folks were made to look and l sound like as slander between the 20's up until maybe early sixties in american culture aka Black Face.

However there are some positive albiet extremely old positive meanings of "Black Face" that was practiced by people who looked up to old Moorish societies, but thats a discussion not to be had on a Dragon Ball fansite.

That said though, Piccolo being Asexual like others have said SHOULD be common DB Knowledge, Humans didnt event Asexuality as there're various creatures around the globe that reproduce the same way as Namekians, Leeches come to mind if i'm not mistaken.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Michsi » Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:15 am

Sin wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:05 pm
Michsi wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:17 pm
Sin wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:10 pm
One thing I can't understand with all of this is that a portion of the black community have already been projecting their identity onto Piccolo for decades now and nobody has ever had an issue with that, what is wrong with LGBT+ doing the same?

As a straight white male (cishet is the term I believe), I am struggling to understand how some users are so aggressively against this, is this a class based mindset? Or geographical maybe? It's so sad seeing users I have respected for years showing themselves up with outdated principles and a lack of empathy for their fellow fans. There is room to agree and debate that Piccolo shouldn't suddenly play up to his sexuality as it wouldn't really seem very Dragonball, but there is no way whatsoever people should be told whether or not they can project their identity onto a character or situation.
I don't think anyone here outright stated fans should not project at all, the thread is about whether or not it should be promoted in an official capacity and cement it as part of DB.
One of the front-page posts is literally:
I have a simpler solution: how about we stop projecting our identity politics onto some dumb kung-Fu cartoon?
With a few posters backing that up later on.

I said I had no problem with the real discussion OP intended to have.
My apologies, I somehow managed to forget this.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by supersaiyanZero » Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:44 pm

Kendamu wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:56 pm
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:43 am
Kendamu wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:15 pm
Hi. There's not a ton of positive queer representation in mainstream media. If there is representation it's often subtext only. Because of this we tend to interpret a lot of characters in our own completely valid way.

If you're not into the idea of Piccolo being NB or Ace in the same context that an NB person or Ace person might see Piccolo, it's not your job to tell others not to interpret Piccolo that way. Also, it costs nothing to just be nice to people and not throw around homophobic dogwhistles such as "identity politics."

We're only "politics" because conservative politicians keep trying to legislate us out of existence. So, yeah, the reply that VegettoEX deemed inappropriate is in fact inappropriate and everyone defending that reply is also being inappropriate by rationalizing their homophobia.

We make up some of the most important roles in both official localization of DB and in fandom. You've enjoyed our content. You've had fun discussions with us. You've bought our products.

Stop being mean to us.
You are free to interpret Piccolo however you like. If him being a plant alien in a strange world resonates with someone being nonbinary, then all the power to you. You seem to throw out a lot of strawman arguments - acknowledging something that is blatantly related to identity politics as such is in no way homophobia. We are talking about retconning an established character for the sake of pandering. Why is that so hard to understand? Should we go back and edit some of the characters to be black since they were so poorly represented 30 years ago?
You calling me and others like me "identity politics" to begin with is pretty terrible and works to diminish the legitimacy of my existence in the eyes of the world at large. It's not a "strawman" to call you out for saying it. You're just being a terrible person because you're uncomfortable with folks like us in your fandom.

We're not a political stance or ideology. We're actual people just trying to live our lives.

Also, theres no retconning going on. Piccolo is asexual and his physiology and reproductive methods don't align to his masculine presentation. It's in the damn manga.

Be a better person!!
Nobody is calling you identity politics. Nobody is diminishing you as a human being. And it might be somewhat of a shock, but most people don't care if you're trans, non-binary, queer, double-binary, or any other letter of the alphabet. I certainly don't.

What I do care about, is injecting identity politics (or any political agenda, for that matter) in a kung fu cartoon. I care because A) It's something I've grown up with and have an emotional attachment to the 30+ years of source material and more importantly because B) on principle I cannot in any way shape or form ever think that retconning previous works simply to pander to a political ideology is ever OK.

I've never diminished your personal existence. There is not one iota of evidence to support that. This is a bullshit, manipulative way to play a victim of some sort of injustice and therefore invalidate anything I have or will say.

You may, in your infinite ignorance, have branded the term identity politics as an assault on your existence. You might want to educate yourself in that regard. Me and many others are tired of certain groups forming their own off-brand political brand based on whatever identity they choose to be that day, and (speaking broadly here) claiming that because the status quo is oppressing them they have a right to reshape the world in their image no questions asked. And anybody who doesn't agree is a homophobic alt right nazi slave owner bigot. This is not a dismissal of socioeconimic problems that are specifically affecting minorities., which is a very real and systematic issue and the coalition of groups dedicated to this needs to be strengthened.

Yes, there are people that are trying to "legislate you out of existence" for lack of a better term. Yes, this is a problem - there is a lot of ignorance on both sides. I wish we could deal with said problem much more directly that we do as a society, but unfortunately religion still has a stranglehold on the minds of people in the 21st century and religious zealots still run rampant in this country. You need to understand though, that I view these narrow minded divisive religious zealots the same way as I view a few narrow minded divisive LBGTQ zealots. They are two sides of the same coin as far as I'm concerned. For you to claim that I assaulted your existence is so damn shameless, so fucking low I can't even think to imagine what kind of person you are.
Kunzait_83 wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:56 pm
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:43 am
You seem to throw out a lot of strawman arguments - acknowledging something that is blatantly related to identity politics as such is in no way homophobia. We are talking about retconning an established character for the sake of pandering. Why is that so hard to understand?
At this point, someone needs to actually take a moment to pause and firmly establish, in solidly ironclad terms, what precisely the fuck it is that LGBTQ+ people are expected to say or do - be it in day to day life, in pop cultural representation in media, or in online discussions like this one - in order for them to NOT have the "identity politics" label thrown at them.

Because nearly every single fucking time this same idiotic, purposefully nebulous talking point gets raised, the subtext apparently always seems to be "they need to either not exist, or at least they need to stop reminding me that they exist: out of sight, out of mind".

As has already been alluded to, "identity politics" in these kinds of discussions has long shown itself to basically be dogwhistle for "anything relating to real world minority groups that makes me feel the least bit uncomfortable, up to and including any remote acknowledgement of the realities of their problems or even the fact that they exist anywhere within my close proximity".

Which yes, makes the whole "identity politics" term, within these kinds of specific contexts at least, pretty solidly homophobic (and/or racist) in nature. Because usually, 9 times out of 10, it basically just amounts to "stop reminding me that minorities and/or topics related to minorities are things that exist in and throughout ANY piece of media that I ever consume, I simply DON'T want to ever have to think about or acknowledge them in any serious fashion". Its basically a desperate cry for a - wait for it - for a safe space from anything that isn't firmly CIS/White/Hetero/Masculine or whatever.

Also, even though Kendamu had already laid this out pretty succinctly, I'll reiterate the point home further: Piccolo has always been asexual. Its RIGHT THERE in Toriyama's own original manga (and in the original anime as well). He's a sexless alien beings that reproduces via vomiting up eggs. He identifies as masculine (while also simultaneously having matriarchal traits inherent to his race, further blurring the gender/sexual lines with him), but is otherwise 100% asexual IN THE ORIGINAL FUCKING CANON FROM 30 YEARS AGO. There's ZERO fucking retconning at play here in discussing the character as asexual (and non-binary) in nature.

There's been a recurring theme throughout the past several years where reactionaries online seem to genuinely not realize that these kinds of non-binary gender/sex concepts have ALWAYS existed throughout both real life (including throughout human history) and within pop culture/media since decades and decades and decades ago, are not anything the least bit new, and thus they have a tendency to react to them and regard them as if they're concepts that have only literally JUST NOW within the past few years been invented from wholecloth by the dreaded "SJWs" in order to enact... some totally ill-defined and vague "agenda" (the specifics of which no one can EVER seem to be bothered to actually go into and define what exactly it is and why exactly its so terrible in the first place).

This has always been comically ridiculous, moronic, and asinine: and within the context of Dragon Ball fandom, asserting that Piccolo being deemed asexual is "retconning to pander to identity politics" within a present-day context, when its always been right there in the fucking original manga/anime for ALL these many years now... that's certainly no exception and takes on a whole new level of staggering dimness and complete failure of basic-most critical thinking.
It's only a dogwhistle for homophobia because you disagree with anything that doesn't align your world view. When someone shouts from the top of the building "I don't feel represented, change this character to align with my projections" for some reason they sound much louder than those that are shouting "There is a staggering increase in black families without fathers". One deals with someones selfish desire to feel important, while the other deals with a very complicated, extremely systematic problem that requires a lot of attention and unpacking. But people like you take away from that.

I'll lay it for you what I believe in so you can call me whatever you want: I believe there are two genders (with the rare genetic aberration every now and then) Male and Female. Biologically speaking, anywho.

I also believe there are social constructs of genders, based on the strengths and weaknesses specific to men and women over thousands of years. I believe some of these constructs are valid, while others aren't. I believe that men have inherent strengths and weaknesses, and women have inherent strengths and weaknesses. I believe society started to cater to these strengths and weaknesses but has largely ran off the rails in terms of equality.

Enter the trans. I don't know. Like, I really don't. I don't begin to think that I can understand what it feels like to be born in a female body but really feel like you are male. And you know what? That's fine. To me, that person is still biologically a female. Do they identify as a dude? Sure. Who cares. It's really a bigger deal to you than it is to me. But I don't for a second question the validity of their existence or experience.

I don't think that these people have somehow transcended human biology and are some 9th level dimensional consciousness though. I think they are undertaking the most basic and arguably greatest quest any human has the privilege of undertaking: discovering who they are and creating that reality for themselves. If you want to call yourself Xir, that's fine - but to get offended when someone does not is fucking ludicrous for such a number of reasons.

I think it's an interesting development of the human condition that raises more questions than answers. I think it's also because this is probably the most tolerant time in human history. I like to romanticize that these people are able to look at human individuals and fall in love with them beyond their biological state. It is revolutionary, at least in my eyes.

Is there more room for tolerance and understanding of the LBGT community? Of course there is. Absolutely there is. I think this is a really important time in humanity and unfortunately it's something that people are going to have to take time accepting. LBGTneeds a platform for this and many other reasons. However, this militarized extremist "If you don't agree with everything I say than you're a bigot" is completely stupid and counterproductive, not to mention reminiscent of so many Machiavellian ideologies and methods that were used for oppression. Why isn't the LBGT community up in arms over the censoring that Rotten Tomatoes did when it came to Batwoman and Chappelle's Sticks and Stones? I'm pissed when straight white people do it and call them out on it whether I align with their world view or not. The golden rule, above all else, is hold yourself accountable. If you feel represented by a certain organized effort and they start misrepresenting facts, creating further division, or clearly pursuing an agenda that is masquerading as a just cause to your movement, hold them accountable.

Piccolo was written and created by a Japanese guy 30 years ago. He's a fucking alien. He's probably genderless and asexual because he's a fucking walking, talking, karate chopping plant. He sounds masculine and portrays masculine behaviors because he was written by a dude. He doesn't "identify" as shit except maybe Namekian. Is there room for opportunity to use this piece of lore to perhaps, maybe expand his character's isolation that might resonate with the LBGT community? You know what, absolutely. If it's handled well I'm all for it. If it's simply slapping him with a label because people want some sort of label to appease whoever, then I'm absolutely against that. It's really not that hard to understand.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:27 pm

supersaiyanZero wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:44 pm
Nobody is calling you identity politics. Nobody is diminishing you as a human being. And it might be somewhat of a shock, but most people don't care if you're trans, non-binary, queer, double-binary, or any other letter of the alphabet. I certainly don't.
We're not talking about most people, we're talking about people who voraciously fight against minority inclusion and representation in media. The fact that you'd rely on dogwhistles like 'any other letter of the alphabet' already tells the tale of just how little respect you have for gender and sex minorities.
What I do care about, is injecting identity politics (or any political agenda, for that matter) in a kung fu cartoon. I care because A) It's something I've grown up with and have an emotional attachment to the 30+ years of source material and more importantly because B) on principle I cannot in any way shape or form ever think that retconning previous works simply to pander to a political ideology is ever OK.

I've never diminished your personal existence. There is not one iota of evidence to support that. This is a bullshit, manipulative way to play a victim of some sort of injustice and therefore invalidate anything I have or will say.
'Identity politics' exists because bigots don't like minorities. They want free reign to be bigoted and discriminatory without having their shit fought back against or their stature in society challenged. Having Piccolo call himself ace and aro wouldn't even be a 'retcon', it'd be using a real word to describe what he literally is within the franchise. Having another character's sexuality expanded upon wouldn't even be a retcon, either. Sexuality changes through age. You'll see plenty of articles about people who were heterosexual in their youth but developed into bisexual or homosexual folks in older age. Kuririn admitting "I've always wanted to make out with Gokuu, to be honest" wouldn't be a crime, either.
You may, in your infinite ignorance, have branded the term identity politics as an assault on your existence. You might want to educate yourself in that regard. Me and many others are tired of certain groups forming their own off-brand political brand based on whatever identity they choose to be that day, and (speaking broadly here) claiming that because the status quo is oppressing them they have a right to reshape the world in their image no questions asked. And anybody who doesn't agree is a homophobic alt right nazi slave owner bigot. This is not a dismissal of socioeconimic problems that are specifically affecting minorities., which is a very real and systematic issue and the coalition of groups dedicated to this needs to be strengthened.
Replace 'identity politics' with 'bigotry toward minorities'. That's what the term really is. Gender, sex and racial minorities are always expected to argue under the framing of 'neutrality' when this is very much not a 'neutral' discussion. There is no neutrality when your argument is ultimately telling us to not fight for our representation in media. Remember the controversy when Kirk and Uhura provided the first interracial kiss on US TV? Bigots went crazy over the idea that a white man and a minority could kiss or even have some attraction between them. Who wants to bet somebody was out there crying about Kirk being retconned to liking black cis women?

Like, goodness hon. Just own it. You don't like minorities fighting for their inclusion in the very media they help make so profitable.
Yes, there are people that are trying to "legislate you out of existence" for lack of a better term. Yes, this is a problem - there is a lot of ignorance on both sides. I wish we could deal with said problem much more directly that we do as a society, but unfortunately religion still has a stranglehold on the minds of people in the 21st century and religious zealots still run rampant in this country. You need to understand though, that I view these narrow minded divisive religious zealots the same way as I view a few narrow minded divisive LBGTQ zealots. They are two sides of the same coin as far as I'm concerned. For you to claim that I assaulted your existence is so damn shameless, so fucking low I can't even think to imagine what kind of person you are.
There is no comparison between LGBTQIA+ folks wanting representation--and pushing for that representation--and conservatives trying to legislate us out of existence. What are we doing that is even remotely a crime against humanity?

It's only a dogwhistle for homophobia because you disagree with anything that doesn't align your world view. When someone shouts from the top of the building "I don't feel represented, change this character to align with my projections" for some reason they sound much louder than those that are shouting "There is a staggering increase in black families without fathers". One deals with someones selfish desire to feel important, while the other deals with a very complicated, extremely systematic problem that requires a lot of attention and unpacking. But people like you take away from that.
Minorities who self-advocate are louder than racists, whom are cowards the second a light is shined on them.
I'll lay it for you what I believe in so you can call me whatever you want: I believe there are two genders (with the rare genetic aberration every now and then) Male and Female. Biologically speaking, anywho.
Your belief is incorrect because gender is not about what's in one's pants. Gender is a spectrum and the status quo of cisgender normality exists only because our conservative-run society re-enforces the idea that your gender is a rigid construct tied to what's in your pants or on your chest. It's not. Gender is about what is in your heart. I am a woman. I do not 'identify' as a woman, I simply am.
Enter the trans. I don't know. Like, I really don't. I don't begin to think that I can understand what it feels like to be born in a female body but really feel like you are male. And you know what? That's fine. To me, that person is still biologically a female. Do they identify as a dude? Sure. Who cares. It's really a bigger deal to you than it is to me. But I don't for a second question the validity of their existence or experience.

I don't think that these people have somehow transcended human biology and are some 9th level dimensional consciousness though. I think they are undertaking the most basic and arguably greatest quest any human has the privilege of undertaking: discovering who they are and creating that reality for themselves. If you want to call yourself Xir, that's fine - but to get offended when someone does not is fucking ludicrous for such a number of reasons.
This is how transphobes disregard transgender people. Qualifiers like 'identity', to frame transgender people as "not actually existing, it's all in their head". Bullshit like "Look at me, being so progressive and nice by respecting your choices" is the most disingenuous and disgusting thing someone can do. Learn about transgender people before you want to discuss us.

It took me a long time to break out of my conservative brainwashing and to accept that I was a cishet man. I had to challenge the authority I had been raised under to truly ask myself who I was. Why I longed to be that man's closest confidant, why I hated the roles society expected me to fulfill, why I hated my body, why I felt like I was given only the choice to be somebody but myself. Being transgender is not an 'identity', it is a reality. I am a woman who likes people romantically and sexually regardless of their gender. You can't boil that down to some hot word like 'identity politics', as if my existence is in contradiction to reality. My existence is reality. So is Kendamu's.
I think it's an interesting development of the human condition that raises more questions than answers. I think it's also because this is probably the most tolerant time in human history. I like to romanticize that these people are able to look at human individuals and fall in love with them beyond their biological state. It is revolutionary, at least in my eyes.
Trans and non-binary people have existed since the beginning of time. Two Spirit folks are a big part of Native American culture. We're not new, we're old as fuck but getting smarter and stronger the more we unite thanks to the advances of technology.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by supersaiyanZero » Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:51 pm

Julie, any conversation with you is void and null. Telling me to "own" the fact that I don't want minority representation in media is classless, manipulative, and borderline shitposting. It's almost as if you've retreated from any sort of critical thinking.

I find that not only disturbing but sad, since I am most certainly not against any sort of representation of minorities in media. We are on the same page there. I'll put it another way - if white conservatives wanted Piccolo to come out and develop an attraction to females I'd be just as vehemently against that as I am this.

You also don't seem to understand identity politics. It's not as black and white as you make it out. I'm well aware that there have been bigots who have used identity to subjugate a minority politically, but that does not exclude the LBGT community from ramming it down everybody's throats playing the Oppression Olympics. Nobody is telling you to not fight for representation. But there is a difference between cultivating that representation with artists and stories that can relate to your human experience, and fighting for an arbitrary change in a character that will do nothing but moonlight how "progressive" the network or show is. Likewise, nobody is telling minorities to not self advocate. It's more of how and what they're advocating for that ultimately matters.
Your belief is incorrect because gender is not about what's in one's pants. Gender is a spectrum and the status quo of cisgender normality exists only because our conservative-run society re-enforces the idea that your gender is a rigid construct tied to what's in your pants or on your chest. It's not. Gender is about what is in your heart. I am a woman. I do not 'identify' as a woman, I simply am.
My belief is not incorrect and that is supported by science. Men and women produce different hormones at different stages in their lives which effect brain chemistry. That's a fact. And that's not a "no such thing a trans person!" argument either. That's simply working with your biological body in order to understand it better, and in turn understand how we react to stimuli over long periods of time.

Now, you might know it in your heart that you're a woman. And I don't disagree with you there at all. But biologically you're a male - the question is how do we bridge that gap? And how did that happen? What's going on there? Does gender really transcend biology? Is it malleable? Is this the first step to freeing ourselves from our biological limitations? Do we just have a mental roadblock that once unlocked will help us see each other on more equal grounds? I think all of this warrants a discussion. For the record, I believe sexuality is a spectrum. Not gender. That's not to say that I believe gender is a FIXED point of view. But how much of it is societal? I think there are things in nature that are inherently masculine and inherently feminine and that does not mean that I am anti-trans. The difference between you and I is that I'm actually willing to have an honest discussion about it whereas anybody that doesn't agree with you on every single point is clearly anti-everything that isn't CIS.

And for the record, your need to defend yourself with "we've been around for a long time" means you absolutely missed what I was trying to say. It's better if you block me as you suggested you would.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by KaiserNeko » Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:27 pm

I remember when Shiro in Voltron was announced as the first gay character in the series.

If I remember correctly, it was announced at a convention, and they even ended up revealing an image of his boyfriend. There was a lot of hubbub about it, because they were already several seasons in, and this reveal came out of nowhere.

Some people criticized it as "identity politics". Others praised it for its inclusion. I... was nervous. Because frankly, it seemed a bit suspect that they'd make this introduction and actually have it mean anything for the character.

And lo and behold, it didn't. They had a single scene that featured them, and a scene later with fallout surrounding their initial conflict, and then his boyfriend was dead. Both the character-- and the conflict-- were pointless and poorly written, and actively hurt the character.

And the worst part about it all, was that it *didn't have to be that way.* Shiro could've come back to a boyfriend. He could've fallen in love with someone naturally. But instead, they shoehorned in a gay love interest only to immediately remove the conflict-- both within the series and surrounding it-- just so they could make a statement.

Now, I dont know if it was a bid for the Queer dollar. I dont know if it was the writers trying to legitimately say something they believed in. But it sucked. And even the most LGBT+ fans felt a mixture of disappointment and frustration, even when we got one of the first male gay kisses in children's programming in the ending.

I don't want them to ruin stories or change characters into what they're not to give inclusion. What I-- what WE-- want are well written characters and stories that involves LGBT+ content.

We could've had that with Shiro... if they'd committed. We could've had that with Korra and Asami... if they'd started earlier. (And Bryke were frankly better writers.) We could've had that with dozens of different characters in many shows, but that requires an interest on the behalf of artists, writers, etc. to want to explore those avenues.

In the meantime, LGBT+ audiences are told to eat the bare minimum we're given-- even when it sucks (which is most of the time)-- and are ridiculed for "identity politics" when we publicly voice our want for more representation.

We *know* that it's up to creators... but here's a truth we all know: Without a demand for these things, they're unlikely to happen. Because a major of creators in television and film are straight and male and white. And that's not an insult to them, but it definitely makes them less incentivized to create characters outside their norm.

Lastly, please understand why we're pissed. Why we're done asking please and saying thank you for fucking scraps. Minorities have tried so hard to be patient and understanding, but at some point... the buck's gotta stop, and we need to be recognized as people first and foremost.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:45 pm

I haven't seen that new Voltron series yet so hearing that about one of the main cast is just...disheartening. As a creator and consumer of media I have found that it's best to not be subtle about subtext or themes. If Shiro was supposed to be a message about how cisgay men are treated in the real world I wish they had been more direct about that. If that wasn't the intention...well, gosh, it wouldn't have hurt to just given Shiro a happy ending. As a women-loving-woman who was recently in a same-gender relationship I am frustrated to no end by how same-gender relationships are always portrayed with forced tragedy. Maybe I just have no interest in what writers adverse to depicting romance in media have to say? The hemming and hawing over even cishet romances in US television and film is so contrived, too.

You know what I liked about Yuuri on Ice? It was made perfectly clear that the boys were gay as fuck and even got married all within the span of a single cour. That's what I want more of. Kobayashi-san, as series that speaks to me as a WLW, had a perfect first season and managed to keep the tension going about the characters' relationships while also leaving me wanting more. There's too much beating around the bush in most media's romance arcs but Yuuri on Ice is a perfect example of how to just ignore the hemming and hawing and give us the next step.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by ABED » Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:53 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:45 pm
I haven't seen that new Voltron series yet so hearing that about one of the main cast is just...disheartening. As a creator and consumer of media I have found that it's best to not be subtle about subtext or themes. If Shiro was supposed to be a message about how cisgay men are treated in the real world I wish they had been more direct about that. If that wasn't the intention...well, gosh, it wouldn't have hurt to just given Shiro a happy ending. As a women-loving-woman who was recently in a same-gender relationship I am frustrated to no end by how same-gender relationships are always portrayed with forced tragedy. Maybe I just have no interest in what writers adverse to depicting romance in media have to say? The hemming and hawing over even cishet romances in US television and film is so contrived, too.

You know what I liked about Yuuri on Ice? It was made perfectly clear that the boys were gay as fuck and even got married all within the span of a single cour. That's what I want more of. Kobayashi-san, as series that speaks to me as a WLW, had a perfect first season and managed to keep the tension going about the characters' relationships while also leaving me wanting more. There's too much beating around the bush in most media's romance arcs but Yuuri on Ice is a perfect example of how to just ignore the hemming and hawing and give us the next step.
Do you mean all themes and subtext or specifically LGBT+ ones?
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by DemonRin » Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:09 pm

KaiserNeko wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:27 pm
In the meantime, LGBT+ audiences are told to eat the bare minimum we're given-- even when it sucks (which is most of the time)-- and are ridiculed for "identity politics" when we publicly voice our want for more representation.

We *know* that it's up to creators... but here's a truth we all know: Without a demand for these things, they're unlikely to happen. Because a major of creators in television and film are straight and male and white. And that's not an insult to them, but it definitely makes them less incentivized to create characters outside their norm.

Lastly, please understand why we're pissed. Why we're done asking please and saying thank you for fucking scraps. Minorities have tried so hard to be patient and understanding, but at some point... the buck's gotta stop, and we need to be recognized as people first and foremost.
I second this so incredibly much.

Also to add my own personal take to what Kaiser said:

Given a choice where people are trying to include us but sometimes handle it bad/wonky like Voltron or times when they aren't even trying at all, I think I'd rather they try and it sometimes be wonky than to have none at all.

Writers who are not already LGBTQ+ but want to include us (either chasing our $ or genuine desire to include us) need to learn more about our experiences etc and honestly I'd rather they go for it and then take our criticisms to heart when there are issues than to just ignore us altogether.

Except when they bait us, that can just stop please.

Either include the LGBTQ+ character or don't. Don't tell us you are and then when the thing comes out the LGBTQ+ stuff is subtext at best.

No I don't care that Lando's charming swagger can be read as him kinda low-key hitting on Han. It can easily be rationalized as NOT being him hitting on Han, so it's not representation. You don't get a cookie for that movie makers.


Also, I HATE when LGBTQ+ stuff is called "Identity Politics".

No, my existence isn't automatically political. Including people like me in media doesn't automatically make those things political. Equating them seems to be an attempt to reframe our existence as an opinion rather than a statement of fact about us so they can rationalize wanting to exclude us without it sounding like they're homophobic/transphobic.

"I don't hate Gay people, I just want to be able to watch [MEDIA] without having politics shoved in my face!"

But unless the LGBTQ+ person like, shouts "PASS ENDA NOW!" they didn't say anything political. Characters who are like us just existing isn't political.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:44 pm

supersaiyanZero wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:44 pm
Piccolo was written and created by a Japanese guy 30 years ago. He's a fucking alien. He's probably genderless and asexual because he's a fucking walking, talking, karate chopping plant. He sounds masculine and portrays masculine behaviors because he was written by a dude. He doesn't "identify" as shit except maybe Namekian. Is there room for opportunity to use this piece of lore to perhaps, maybe expand his character's isolation that might resonate with the LBGT community? You know what, absolutely. If it's handled well I'm all for it. If it's simply slapping him with a label because people want some sort of label to appease whoever, then I'm absolutely against that. It's really not that hard to understand.
Like I said before, he is not a plant, he's a slug.

Also, no one is trying to retcon anything. Making Piccolo sexually attracted to women/men would be, but saying he's asexual? What exactly is the big problem with that?
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:53 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:27 pm
Replace 'identity politics' with 'bigotry toward minorities'. That's what the term really is. Gender, sex and racial minorities are always expected to argue under the framing of 'neutrality' when this is very much not a 'neutral' discussion. There is no neutrality when your argument is ultimately telling us to not fight for our representation in media. Remember the controversy when Kirk and Uhura provided the first interracial kiss on US TV? Bigots went crazy over the idea that a white man and a minority could kiss or even have some attraction between them. Who wants to bet somebody was out there crying about Kirk being retconned to liking black cis women?
Technically they were both under mind control when that happened in that episode. Also I once read that they only got 1 letter of complaint over it, which read something like 'I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with this, but if this is the way you're going to go, then whatever'. Hardly 'going crazy'.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:55 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:53 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:27 pm
Replace 'identity politics' with 'bigotry toward minorities'. That's what the term really is. Gender, sex and racial minorities are always expected to argue under the framing of 'neutrality' when this is very much not a 'neutral' discussion. There is no neutrality when your argument is ultimately telling us to not fight for our representation in media. Remember the controversy when Kirk and Uhura provided the first interracial kiss on US TV? Bigots went crazy over the idea that a white man and a minority could kiss or even have some attraction between them. Who wants to bet somebody was out there crying about Kirk being retconned to liking black cis women?
Technically they were both under mind control when that happened in that episode. Also I once read that they only got 1 letter of complaint over it, which read something like 'I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with this, but if this is the way you're going to go, then whatever'. Hardly 'going crazy'.
I meant to mention the mind control part, thank you. It goes to show Roddenberry et al were freaking out about the possibility of the backlash, though.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by ABED » Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:03 pm

Which I think is true of a lot of this stuff. Back then you had to really care enough to make your displeasure known, but the stroke of a key and people can let loose. The internet has magnified that negativity and made it seem bigger than it truly is. There's little doubt in my mind that if there was way more LGBT content and kissing and affection on TV that there would be a loud response before the fact, but afterwards most would be more than fine with it, especially when it's done well.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by KaiserNeko » Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:07 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:53 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:27 pm
Replace 'identity politics' with 'bigotry toward minorities'. That's what the term really is. Gender, sex and racial minorities are always expected to argue under the framing of 'neutrality' when this is very much not a 'neutral' discussion. There is no neutrality when your argument is ultimately telling us to not fight for our representation in media. Remember the controversy when Kirk and Uhura provided the first interracial kiss on US TV? Bigots went crazy over the idea that a white man and a minority could kiss or even have some attraction between them. Who wants to bet somebody was out there crying about Kirk being retconned to liking black cis women?
Technically they were both under mind control when that happened in that episode. Also I once read that they only got 1 letter of complaint over it, which read something like 'I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with this, but if this is the way you're going to go, then whatever'. Hardly 'going crazy'.
It is worth noting that NBC was so afraid of showing the kiss that they literally had two versions of it filmed, one with and one without the kiss.

Nichelle Nicoles-- like a fucking boss-- flubbed every take without the kiss to force the network's hands.

As for the fallout:
There were, however, few contemporary records of any complaints commenting on the scene. Nichelle Nichols observes that "Plato's Stepchildren", which first aired on November 22, 1968, "received a huge response. We received one of the largest batches of fan mail ever, all of it very positive, with many addressed to me from girls wondering how it felt to kiss Captain Kirk, and many to him from guys wondering the same thing about me. However, almost no one found the kiss offensive" except from a single mildly negative letter from one white Southerner who wrote: "I am totally opposed to the mixing of the races. However, any time a red-blooded American boy like Captain Kirk gets a beautiful dame in his arms that looks like Uhura, he ain't gonna fight it." Nichols notes that "for me, the most memorable episode of our last season was 'Plato's Stepchildren.'"
So, they were afraid, but turns out that their audience was already pretty progressive.

One of the things that I find almost as important though was the fan mail. I wonder how much of that was young black men and women happy to see it happen?

Either way, they *knew* what they were doing when they did it. Is that identity politics? (Spoiler: It absolutely is, **going by the common usage**.)
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by ABED » Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:11 pm

To be fair, Star Trek is philosophical by nature. The audience for it isn't looking to it purely for escapism.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by XanatosVanBadass » Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:38 pm

KaiserNeko wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:07 pm
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:53 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:27 pm
Replace 'identity politics' with 'bigotry toward minorities'. That's what the term really is. Gender, sex and racial minorities are always expected to argue under the framing of 'neutrality' when this is very much not a 'neutral' discussion. There is no neutrality when your argument is ultimately telling us to not fight for our representation in media. Remember the controversy when Kirk and Uhura provided the first interracial kiss on US TV? Bigots went crazy over the idea that a white man and a minority could kiss or even have some attraction between them. Who wants to bet somebody was out there crying about Kirk being retconned to liking black cis women?
Technically they were both under mind control when that happened in that episode. Also I once read that they only got 1 letter of complaint over it, which read something like 'I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with this, but if this is the way you're going to go, then whatever'. Hardly 'going crazy'.
It is worth noting that NBC was so afraid of showing the kiss that they literally had two versions of it filmed, one with and one without the kiss.

Nichelle Nicoles-- like a fucking boss-- flubbed every take without the kiss to force the network's hands.

As for the fallout:
There were, however, few contemporary records of any complaints commenting on the scene. Nichelle Nichols observes that "Plato's Stepchildren", which first aired on November 22, 1968, "received a huge response. We received one of the largest batches of fan mail ever, all of it very positive, with many addressed to me from girls wondering how it felt to kiss Captain Kirk, and many to him from guys wondering the same thing about me. However, almost no one found the kiss offensive" except from a single mildly negative letter from one white Southerner who wrote: "I am totally opposed to the mixing of the races. However, any time a red-blooded American boy like Captain Kirk gets a beautiful dame in his arms that looks like Uhura, he ain't gonna fight it." Nichols notes that "for me, the most memorable episode of our last season was 'Plato's Stepchildren.'"
So, they were afraid, but turns out that their audience was already pretty progressive.

One of the things that I find almost as important though was the fan mail. I wonder how much of that was young black men and women happy to see it happen?

Either way, they *knew* what they were doing when they did it. Is that identity politics? (Spoiler: It absolutely is, **going by the common usage**.)
Eh, more like the whole thing with Star Trek being the first show to feature an interracial kiss is a myth. There were plenty on tv in the news and the like. Hell, I Love Lucy had kissing between a white girl and a Cuban man often. Sorry, but I hate people spreading lies that Star Trek was more progressive than it really was.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by ABED » Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:44 pm

Apparently that's true, although I don't know about I Love Lucy. I don't remember them kissing. They were definitely married, but they couldn't even say "pregnant." Regardless of my memory, Star Trek may not have been groundbreaking in that way, it was certainly noteworthy in pop culture, enough that people thought it was the first.
Last edited by ABED on Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by KaiserNeko » Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:45 pm

XanatosVanBadass wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:38 pm
Eh, more like the whole thing with Star Trek being the first show to feature an interracial kiss is a myth. There were plenty on tv in the news and the like. Hell, I Love Lucy had kissing between a white girl and a Cuban man often. Sorry, but I hate people spreading lies that Star Trek was more progressive than it really was.
Not exactly the point.

NBC was so nervous about it, they literally tried to film two versions of the scene.

It may not have actually been the first, but that didn't mean it wasn't still controversial.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:50 pm

KaiserNeko wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:45 pm
XanatosVanBadass wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:38 pm
Eh, more like the whole thing with Star Trek being the first show to feature an interracial kiss is a myth. There were plenty on tv in the news and the like. Hell, I Love Lucy had kissing between a white girl and a Cuban man often. Sorry, but I hate people spreading lies that Star Trek was more progressive than it really was.
Not exactly the point.

NBC was so nervous about it, they literally tried to film two versions of the scene.

It may not have actually been the first, but that didn't mean it wasn't still controversial.
I think it was still the first between a white man and African-American woman on US television, though, so there is that.
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