Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Surai » Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:21 am

Tai Lung wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:23 pm
theherodjl wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:07 am
I'm sorry...but no, this is incredibly wrong.
As Herms' examination shows, there is no discernable difference established between Vegetto & Gogeta when it comes to strength. If the guides or even the manga ever attempted to peg Gogeta as being within the same range as Gotenks then this simply didn't happen. All sources either imply or outright state "Gogeta = Vegetto" so the claim of "Gogeta >=Gotenks" is absolutely inaccurate and an example of fandom misconceptions continuing to live on.
If anything, Base Gogeta would destroy SSJ3 Gotenks since Gogeta = Vegetto and Base Vegetto pwned Boohan.
the only thing that herms did was translated the guides but I never affirm anything about it
I do not take the guides because in many cases they are very contradictory like that guide that said that goku ssj3 = super buu which is a lie anyway I rely on facts .... and actually yes
in the Fusion Reborn movie, Goku SSJ3 can keep a fight with janemba but once he draws the sword and other magical abilities the demon surpasses goku however with that we check that janemba did not have a level so different from goku ssj3

gogeta ssj easily defeated a villain who has the level of goku ssj3 is not the case of super buu gohan that far exceeds goku ssj3 and was not an opponent worthy to vegito ssj
theherodjl wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:07 am
If anything, Base Gogeta would destroy SSJ3 Gotenks since Gogeta = Vegetto and Base Vegetto pwned Boohan. "
you don't have a real test that suggests that"
Surai wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:29 pm
Goku and Vegeta are infinitely stronger than Goten and Trunks, that’s why their fusion is much more powerful. So whether it’s Gogeta SSJ or Vegeto SSJ, both would wreck SSJ3 Gotenks.
theherodjl wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:07 am
Vegeta considering Trunks to be a good training partner means little, he totally could have easily killed Trunks in an actual fight.
they are not or rather they were not ...

Vegeta ssj is so pressured by trunks ssj in his training that he loses control and is forced to attack with full force
Image
a trunks who didn't know his father was going to attack him
Image
Image
Gohan is worried when he learns about the power of children since he thinks that they could soon overcome him
Image
Android 18 literally trembles when Trunks attacks her with his "weak" attack
Image
Image


no, without ssj2 vegeta could not defeat them easily could surely from experience and skill in power they were not so different

even toyotaro made this clear with this scene
Image

keep in mind that vegeta and trunks cell games could barely face a cell jr but children face 7 of them
None of the pages you’ve provided proves that Trunks and Goten are equal or almost equal to Goku and Vegeta. And Vegeta’s veins popping out when hitting Trunks is hardly a proof of him using all his strength. All this scene shows is that Vegeta was initially supposed to not fight back but almost got hit so he panicked and angrily punched Trunks in response. Because of his pride, he didn’t want Trunks to land a single hit so he cut the fight short with a powerful punch.
Last edited by Surai on Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Rakurai » Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:28 am

Tai Lung wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:14 am
the guides can also be official and verified by the author but that does not mean this can't be wrong

Goku ssj3 > Super buu? in any case it is easier to take facts of its respective story
And there’s the key term: respective stories. Each story has its own set of rules and inconsistencies. And neither GT nor Super have both SS4 and SSB.

Yes, official guides and statements can be wrong. But that does not mean the fans who nitpick every little detail of a story or come up with their own powerscaling rules/theories are right either. Sometimes they will just simply retcon stuff, which fans cannot control.

In the end, this debate we’re having is pointless. Shueisha, Bandai, and Toei are free to do whatever they like with the forms, whether it meets fan expectations or not. They don’t care about what fans think of these pointless SS4 vs SSB debates. They’ve already written stories to cross over continuities and established a series based on that and given us an outcome. You can like it or not, you can pick and choose parts based on your own standards for story quality or power level logic, but they’re the content creators in the end and they have the creative freedom. You can choose to ignore it, you can dismiss it, you can choose your own canon/continuities, and there is nothing wrong with that, but you can’t say that your point of view is what they intended DB to be.
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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Rakurai » Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:17 am

Tai Lung, not to speak ill of your posting mannerisms but it would be very much appreciated if in the case that y'all ever post scans or pages, and if they're too big, you could hide them in spoiler tags at the very least. When users quote your posts without alteration, the problem multiplies as you can see above me. Threads get unnecessarily clogged having to scroll down because of this. I am sure other users would also be grateful if you could do that. Thanks!

--

Back on topic, I personally think it should depend on the strength of the individuals Goku & Vegeta, if we are to assume the fusion mechanism or 'formula' is the same between them, just that the fusion dance has stricter requirements. But if they are roughly equal, and the series has lately portrayed both to be so, then I don't think there would be any difference. That's just my headcanon, tho, and it's prob good to remind others that Herms' Tweet rant about the comparison exists.

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1071463452579786752
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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Psajdak » Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:33 am

As someone who don't care about manga, I must say that blast by "Mighty Mask" was much more impressive in anime. :(

As for Vegetto, and Gogeta, well, not sure who is actually stronger between them, but at the very least Gogeta got the job done more times than his Potara counterpart.

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Tai Lung » Fri Jan 03, 2020 11:44 pm

Surai wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:21 am
Tai Lung wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:23 pm
theherodjl wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:07 am
I'm sorry...but no, this is incredibly wrong.
As Herms' examination shows, there is no discernable difference established between Vegetto & Gogeta when it comes to strength. If the guides or even the manga ever attempted to peg Gogeta as being within the same range as Gotenks then this simply didn't happen. All sources either imply or outright state "Gogeta = Vegetto" so the claim of "Gogeta >=Gotenks" is absolutely inaccurate and an example of fandom misconceptions continuing to live on.
If anything, Base Gogeta would destroy SSJ3 Gotenks since Gogeta = Vegetto and Base Vegetto pwned Boohan.
the only thing that herms did was translated the guides but I never affirm anything about it
I do not take the guides because in many cases they are very contradictory like that guide that said that goku ssj3 = super buu which is a lie anyway I rely on facts .... and actually yes
in the Fusion Reborn movie, Goku SSJ3 can keep a fight with janemba but once he draws the sword and other magical abilities the demon surpasses goku however with that we check that janemba did not have a level so different from goku ssj3

gogeta ssj easily defeated a villain who has the level of goku ssj3 is not the case of super buu gohan that far exceeds goku ssj3 and was not an opponent worthy to vegito ssj
theherodjl wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:07 am
If anything, Base Gogeta would destroy SSJ3 Gotenks since Gogeta = Vegetto and Base Vegetto pwned Boohan. "
you don't have a real test that suggests that"
Surai wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:29 pm
Goku and Vegeta are infinitely stronger than Goten and Trunks, that’s why their fusion is much more powerful. So whether it’s Gogeta SSJ or Vegeto SSJ, both would wreck SSJ3 Gotenks.
theherodjl wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:07 am
Vegeta considering Trunks to be a good training partner means little, he totally could have easily killed Trunks in an actual fight.
they are not or rather they were not ...

Vegeta ssj is so pressured by trunks ssj in his training that he loses control and is forced to attack with full force
a trunks who didn't know his father was going to attack him
Gohan is worried when he learns about the power of children since he thinks that they could soon overcome him
Android 18 literally trembles when Trunks attacks her with his "weak" attack

no, without ssj2 vegeta could not defeat them easily could surely from experience and skill in power they were not so different

even toyotaro made this clear with this scene
keep in mind that vegeta and trunks cell games could barely face a cell jr but children face 7 of them
None of the pages you’ve provided proves that Trunks and Goten are equal or almost equal to Goku and Vegeta. And Vegeta’s veins popping out when hitting Trunks is hardly a proof of him using all his strength. All this scene shows is that Vegeta was initially supposed to not fight back but almost got hit so he panicked and angrily punched Trunks in response. Because of his pride, he didn’t want Trunks to land a single hit so he cut the fight short with a powerful punch.
Hitting Vegeta with the high guard causing him to get "serious" in defense and releasing a serious punch when he receives a blow to the cheek, losing the game.

Vegeta show concern when knowing his child's power and later know that "he is only a little stronger" than Goten.

check the vegeta fight with semi perfect cell or android 19 and you will see that he never lost his temper with someone weaker or when he had everything under control

more facts?
1.-Vegeta is transformed into ssj ... having a difficult time and especially "annoying" ... it is impossible that he used less than 80% of his power in that attack
take into account that trunks is playing and was not expected to hit him .. vegeta's worried face upon realizing the power of the children is undeniable
2 ..- vegeta was interested in facing gohan in the tournament ... same gohan worried to realize that children are about to overcome it.
3.- goku thinks that if gohan or vegeta were alive they could defeat fat buu with the metamoru fusion, Mr popo suggests to the children and goku does not doubt it and accepts immediately because it obviously takes as a reference that children have a level close to of the adults

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Tai Lung » Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:10 am

Rakurai wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:28 am
And there’s the key term: respective stories. Each story has its own set of rules and inconsistencies. And neither GT nor Super have both SS4 and SSB.

Yes, official guides and statements can be wrong. But that does not mean the fans who nitpick every little detail of a story or come up with their own powerscaling rules/theories are right either. Sometimes they will just simply retcon stuff, which fans cannot control.
and that's what I mean ... bibidi create buu but now he doesn't ... that doesn't make him a fan theory that something is changed at the last minute does not make it false ... the creators are also human and have mistakes
Rakurai wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:28 am
In the end, this debate we’re having is pointless. Shueisha, Bandai, and Toei are free to do whatever they like with the forms, whether it meets fan expectations or not. They don’t care about what fans think of these pointless SS4 vs SSB debates. They’ve already written stories to cross over continuities and established a series based on that and given us an outcome. You can like it or not, you can pick and choose parts based on your own standards for story quality or power level logic, but they’re the content creators in the end and they have the creative freedom. You can choose to ignore it, you can dismiss it, you can choose your own canon/continuities, and there is nothing wrong with that, but you can’t say that your point of view is what they intended DB to be.
I have not said that they cannot do what they want ... obviously they can something that does not change the point with characters with previously established ideas and concepts which also a level and limit shown

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Rakurai » Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:51 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:10 am

and that's what I mean ... bibidi create buu but now he doesn't ... that doesn't make him a fan theory that something is changed at the last minute does not make it false ... the creators are also human and have mistakes.

I have not said that they cannot do what they want ... obviously they can something that does not change the point with characters with previously established ideas and concepts which also a level and limit shown
There is a difference between a mistake and a retcon. As told in the manga, Buu was created by Bibidi. That is a manga statement backed up by guides. But Toriyama retconned it so it no longer applies. Although one can dismiss his statements if they remain contradicted in the manga. Like claiming Goku would not use SS2-3 again. A mistake is something like if Bulma were labeled as a Saiyan, or if it was said that Vegeta defeated Buu with the Spirit bomb within a guide. (Those are just examples btw, they’re not from a guide.)

SS4 vs SSB “which is stronger” have long been only fan debates, not previously established facts. Well, before SDBH and Xenoverse provided some insight into the comparison rooted in storylines, which have more authority than fan theory, at the very least. Again, don’t confuse fact with fan theory.
Last edited by Rakurai on Sat Jan 04, 2020 1:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Surai » Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:58 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 11:44 pm
Surai wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:21 am
Tai Lung wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:23 pm


the only thing that herms did was translated the guides but I never affirm anything about it
I do not take the guides because in many cases they are very contradictory like that guide that said that goku ssj3 = super buu which is a lie anyway I rely on facts .... and actually yes
in the Fusion Reborn movie, Goku SSJ3 can keep a fight with janemba but once he draws the sword and other magical abilities the demon surpasses goku however with that we check that janemba did not have a level so different from goku ssj3

gogeta ssj easily defeated a villain who has the level of goku ssj3 is not the case of super buu gohan that far exceeds goku ssj3 and was not an opponent worthy to vegito ssj



you don't have a real test that suggests that"





they are not or rather they were not ...

Vegeta ssj is so pressured by trunks ssj in his training that he loses control and is forced to attack with full force
a trunks who didn't know his father was going to attack him
Gohan is worried when he learns about the power of children since he thinks that they could soon overcome him
Android 18 literally trembles when Trunks attacks her with his "weak" attack

no, without ssj2 vegeta could not defeat them easily could surely from experience and skill in power they were not so different

even toyotaro made this clear with this scene
keep in mind that vegeta and trunks cell games could barely face a cell jr but children face 7 of them
None of the pages you’ve provided proves that Trunks and Goten are equal or almost equal to Goku and Vegeta. And Vegeta’s veins popping out when hitting Trunks is hardly a proof of him using all his strength. All this scene shows is that Vegeta was initially supposed to not fight back but almost got hit so he panicked and angrily punched Trunks in response. Because of his pride, he didn’t want Trunks to land a single hit so he cut the fight short with a powerful punch.
Hitting Vegeta with the high guard causing him to get "serious" in defense and releasing a serious punch when he receives a blow to the cheek, losing the game.

Vegeta show concern when knowing his child's power and later know that "he is only a little stronger" than Goten.

check the vegeta fight with semi perfect cell or android 19 and you will see that he never lost his temper with someone weaker or when he had everything under control

more facts?
1.-Vegeta is transformed into ssj ... having a difficult time and especially "annoying" ... it is impossible that he used less than 80% of his power in that attack
take into account that trunks is playing and was not expected to hit him .. vegeta's worried face upon realizing the power of the children is undeniable
2 ..- vegeta was interested in facing gohan in the tournament ... same gohan worried to realize that children are about to overcome it.
3.- goku thinks that if gohan or vegeta were alive they could defeat fat buu with the metamoru fusion, Mr popo suggests to the children and goku does not doubt it and accepts immediately because it obviously takes as a reference that children have a level close to of the adults
Those facts you’re talking about don’t show anything. Vegeta is surprised by his son’s huge potential, it’s extremely surprising that he is that strong at 8. It’s by no means a proof of Trunks being close to his father’s level.

What do 19 and Cell have anything to do with it ? We’re talking about a simple training with his 8 years old son, it’s not comparable to a serious and deadly fight against an enemy. He’s a million times stronger than Vegeta, Goku or Gohan were at the same age, that’s enough to be shocked.

1. Vegeta wasn’t even fighting back in the beginning because he underestimated his son. He was going easy on him before realizing he was stronger than he thought. The 80% thing is just something you made up. And Trunks wasn’t playing, he was asked to give it his all.

2. It was before he realized how much Gohan sucked and got weaker, which he blamed him for later in the arc. Yet this Gohan was stronger than Goten and Trunks.

3. It’s just Goku being confident about their potential, not a proof of them being close to Goku or Vegeta’s level in SSJ. All it means is that he knows they’re strong enough to pull it off. He never said they were almost as strong as him or Vegeta nor did he imply they were.

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Tai Lung » Sat Jan 04, 2020 11:41 pm

Surai wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:58 pm
Those facts you’re talking about don’t show anything. Vegeta is surprised by his son’s huge potential, it’s extremely surprising that he is that strong at 8. It’s by no means a proof of Trunks being close to his father’s level.
you are wrong if they show it as if he did not know that hybrids are strong in addition to knowing the power of Gohan at nine years of age but he is still surprised and upset with the power of trunks and goten. neither does he prove to be superior ... because he literally "loses" the game by seriously attacking his son, however it was his idea to train with him thing that would not make sense if trunks were much weaker than him
Surai wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:58 pm
What do 19 and Cell have anything to do with it ? We’re talking about a simple training with his 8 years old son, it’s not comparable to a serious and deadly fight against an enemy. He’s a million times stronger than Vegeta, Goku or Gohan were at the same age, that’s enough to be shocked. l.
it has to do with something called "facial expression" ... that the author demonstrates by conveying the emotions of his characters
It's simple ... vegeta is fighting with weaker opponents (Cell and A19) and is confident but he was never as pressured as in his training with trunks which indicates that his power is close him, it was not easy and he didn't have the situation under control
Surai wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:58 pm
1. Vegeta wasn’t even fighting back in the beginning because he underestimated his son. He was going easy on him before realizing he was stronger than he thought. The 80% thing is just something you made up. And Trunks wasn’t playing, he was asked to give it his all.
No is just something you made up ... this is not at all calm
Image
vegeta is sweating, angry and with swollen veins
trunks are less tired than him and does not slow down
The percentage is only an example because it is impossible that vegeta used little power in that battle
Surai wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:58 pm
2. It was before he realized how much Gohan sucked and got weaker, which he blamed him for later in the arc. Yet this Gohan was stronger than Goten and Trunks.
Gohan is stronger but with little difference ... that makes it clear him
Vegeta knew that gohan is not doing anything in these 7 years and even mentions it
Surai wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:58 pm
3. It’s just Goku being confident about their potential, not a proof of them being close to Goku or Vegeta’s level in SSJ. All it means is that he knows they’re strong enough to pull it off. He never said they were almost as strong as him or Vegeta nor did he imply they were.
proves that the difference in power is not much ... to trust that they will achieve it even though before he thought of gohan and vegeta

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Tai Lung » Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:08 am

Rakurai wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:51 pm
There is a difference between a mistake and a retcon. As told in the manga, Buu was created by Bibidi. That is a manga statement backed up by guides. But Toriyama retconned it so it no longer applies. Although one can dismiss his statements if they remain contradicted in the manga. Like claiming Goku would not use SS2-3 again. A mistake is something like if Bulma were labeled as a Saiyan, or if it was said that Vegeta defeated Buu with the Spirit bomb within a guide. (Those are just examples btw, they’re not from a guide.)
I have not said to be the same .... however, although the author or a screenwriter can give a wrong statement by not remembering the series .. as the case of the Gohan SNS in GT or that shenron fulfills 3 wishes
Rakurai wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:51 pm
SS4 vs SSB “which is stronger” have long been only fan debates, not previously established facts. Well, before SDBH and Xenoverse provided some insight into the comparison rooted in storylines, which have more authority than fan theory, at the very least. Again, don’t confuse fact with fan theory.
an example goku ssj4 in gt is not able to withstand the freezing of eis shenron but its "ice" melts with the temperature of 6,000 degrees
hyssop can freeze a opponent in absolute zero level .. but vegeta ssj is able to withstand that

all those statements and facts were shown in their respective series ... nothing is invented the writers wanted to demonstrate the power and limits of the characters

they didn't do it to know which of both goku was stronger ... but clearly that can be concluded ....if now they want to do it differently well they can do it ... but take into account that the original ideas were not those

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Rakurai » Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:40 am

Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:08 am
I have not said to be the same .... however, although the author or a screenwriter can give a wrong statement by not remembering the series .. as the case of the Gohan SNS in GT or that shenron fulfills 3 wishes

an example goku ssj4 in gt is not able to withstand the freezing of eis shenron but its "ice" melts with the temperature of 6,000 degrees
hyssop can freeze a opponent in absolute zero level .. but vegeta ssj is able to withstand that

all those statements and facts were shown in their respective series ... nothing is invented the writers wanted to demonstrate the power and limits of the characters

they didn't do it to know which of both goku was stronger ... but clearly that can be concluded ....if now they want to do it differently well they can do it ... but take into account that the original ideas were not those
When you bring in statements like absolute zero and melting that sort of ice, you bring in scientific logic and trust me you do NOT want to go there. Because I will tell you why absolute zero means you need an infinite amount of work and that is logically impossible, it is a far greater feat than blowing up some universe. Which would put ToP fodder above Beerus on a feat basis. I don't put stock into ridiculous statements like that, especially since ToP made so many of those fallacies like infinite void or maximum light speed BS. Unquantifiable and does not tell us anything about powerscaling. Neither do destructive feats for that matter.

But hey, then you have DBS Goku who needed a suit to travel to the center of the Earth because his body wouldn't have survived in such an environment. An environment which is approximately the same temp as Si Xing Long's flames. :roll:

Once again, don't confuse facts with fan theory. Facts are what the series establishes to be absolute truth, like fusion dance requiring an equal balance of powers or Spirit bomb of the Earth being enough to wipe out kid Buu.
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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Tai Lung » Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:04 pm

Rakurai wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:40 am
Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:08 am
I have not said to be the same .... however, although the author or a screenwriter can give a wrong statement by not remembering the series .. as the case of the Gohan SNS in GT or that shenron fulfills 3 wishes

an example goku ssj4 in gt is not able to withstand the freezing of eis shenron but its "ice" melts with the temperature of 6,000 degrees
hyssop can freeze a opponent in absolute zero level .. but vegeta ssj is able to withstand that

all those statements and facts were shown in their respective series ... nothing is invented the writers wanted to demonstrate the power and limits of the characters

they didn't do it to know which of both goku was stronger ... but clearly that can be concluded ....if now they want to do it differently well they can do it ... but take into account that the original ideas were not those
When you bring in statements like absolute zero and melting that sort of ice, you bring in scientific logic and trust me you do NOT want to go there. Because I will tell you why absolute zero means you need an infinite amount of work and that is logically impossible, it is a far greater feat than blowing up some universe. Which would put ToP fodder above Beerus on a feat basis. I don't put stock into ridiculous statements like that, especially since ToP made so many of those fallacies like infinite void or maximum light speed BS. Unquantifiable and does not tell us anything about powerscaling. Neither do destructive feats for that matter.

But hey, then you have DBS Goku who needed a suit to travel to the center of the Earth because his body wouldn't have survived in such an environment. An environment which is approximately the same temp as Si Xing Long's flames. :roll:

Once again, don't confuse facts with fan theory. Facts are what the series establishes to be absolute truth, like fusion dance requiring an equal balance of powers or Spirit bomb of the Earth being enough to wipe out kid Buu.
know something? there are many anime where the characters use that attack and do not have the power to destroy the universe ...
digimon, saint seiya, pokemon etc ... the same with the speed of light in comics is not a fallacy it seems that you did not know what is "fiction" ... you are literally mixing reality with fiction to argue something without sense
in any case it would be impossible to destroy the moon without damaging the planet
remember that goku comes back without the suit ... so that wasn't a problem

all these statements are from both series there is no fan theory in them or in any case do you tell me that it is supposedly invented?

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:03 am

It is said and shown several times in the buu saga that small gains for the fuses are large gains for the fusion. Goten and Trunks are not noted to be much stronger post rosat yet Gotenks surpassed his ssj self.

Goku and Vegeta's increase over the boys will make Gogets a monster to Gotenks.

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Rakurai » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:53 am

Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:04 pm

know something? there are many anime where the characters use that attack and do not have the power to destroy the universe ...
digimon, saint seiya, pokemon etc ... the same with the speed of light in comics is not a fallacy it seems that you did not know what is "fiction" ... you are literally mixing reality with fiction to argue something without sense
in any case it would be impossible to destroy the moon without damaging the planet
remember that goku comes back without the suit ... so that wasn't a problem

all these statements are from both series there is no fan theory in them or in any case do you tell me that it is supposedly invented?
I'm sorry, what? The bold is the pinnacle definition of "fan theory/headcanon" at its finest.
Goku coming back w/o the suit =/= not needing it, especially when literally the only time we see him side the Earth's core is with the suit. Episode made it quite clear he would've died w/o the suit.

From my PoV, it is you committing fallacies by using hyperboles like 'absolute zero' to claim it means something. This is why ppl like you cant be taken seriously. The most correct way to powerscaling is to compare feats between characters vs. characters, not characters vs. rocks, in the same work. Because the former establishes an accurate truth (but not necessarily infallible), the latter never does.

Also I give zero shits about feats in Digimon, Saint Seiya, etc. We are talking about DB here. When you start comparing DB to other franchises your whole argument falls apart.

But it's clear I'm not going to be able to convince you on anything. So agree to disagree, this will be my last message on this. No DB writer will ever follow these fan theory tier lists in the first place, especially not fans comparing GT to Super like destructive feats ever meant anything in the first place.
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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by SSJgogeto » Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:58 pm

It's just my two cents here but seems like we can have two kinds of headcanon in this situation:

1 - Goku would die without the suit.
2 - Goku wouldn't die without the suit.

The episode itself makes things a little confusing exactly because Goku was without the suit when he came back. Literally anything could have happened before that.

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by ankokudaishogun » Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:49 pm

SSJgogeto wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:58 pm
It's just my two cents here but seems like we can have two kinds of headcanon in this situation:

1 - Goku would die without the suit.
2 - Goku wouldn't die without the suit.

The episode itself makes things a little confusing exactly because Goku was without the suit when he came back. Literally anything could have happened before that.
there is the middle way: Goku would have died if without the suit for a prolonged time.
There is also the fact the core of Earth kinda lacks in breathable air, which is something Saiyans notoriously need, so that alone might well be the reason he would have died instead of the temperature and pressure.

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Rakurai » Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:19 pm

SSJgogeto wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:58 pm
No, only one of them is headcanon. There is no confusion, only mental gymnastics being played around by fans who think DBS anime Goku wouldn't die without the suit when the episode made it quite clear he would. That is what the narrative tells us. Goku retrieved the rock with the suit on. We assume that Goku took off the suit when he got out and before he came back. That is the most logical assumption.

EDIT: went back to the episode and Whis and Beerus showed up in the core after he got the rock to confront Goku. Afterwards, we see them with Bulma. Just because Whis teleported them around and Goku wasn't with the suit, doesn't imply he didn't need it, especially since it was after he completed his mission. We simply assume he took it off.

Regardless, the narrative establishes one clear fact: Goku can't survive the conditions of the Earth's core, only beings like Whis and Beerus can.
ankokudaishogun wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:49 pm
Isn't that the same thing as Goku would die without the suit? The downtime before then is up in the air (there might not even be a downtime, or he might not be able to stand it), it's just semantics but point is, he needs the suit if he doesn't want to die in there. The cause is a good point tho, we don't know whether it refers to temperature/pressure or breathable air.
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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by SSJgogeto » Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:44 am

Rakurai wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:19 pm
SSJgogeto wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:58 pm

No, only one of them is headcanon.
Nopes, the two are. In both cases you see what you want to see, and make some conclusions based in your point of view.
ankokudaishogun wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:49 pm
there is the middle way: Goku would have died if without the suit for a prolonged time.
There is also the fact the core of Earth kinda lacks in breathable air, which is something Saiyans notoriously need, so that alone might well be the reason he would have died instead of the temperature and pressure.
That's actually my favorite theory, specially because base Goku withstood the reentry temperature in the atmosphere in the fight with Beerus.

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Kataphrut » Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:53 pm

Psajdak wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:33 am
As someone who don't care about manga, I must say that blast by "Mighty Mask" was much more impressive in anime. :(

As for Vegetto, and Gogeta, well, not sure who is actually stronger between them, but at the very least Gogeta got the job done more times than his Potara counterpart.
Agreed. Though while Gogeta (2 for 3) has a better track record on paper than Vegetto (0 for 2), the latter comes out looking better from a moral perspective. Gogeta did the right thing by Janemba (ending the fight quickly while saving the corrupted ogre), but his other appearances involved pissing about instead of winning in GT, and almost murdering a mentally-unstable abuse victim while letting the galactic dictator that set him off go free in DBS.

Vegetto pissed about against Buu, but it was for a benevolent cause- he wanted to save his friends and didn't realise he'd unfuse inside Buu. And against Zamasu, he was actually fighting seriously, trying to save the universe from an insane mass-murdering god. He only failed because his opponent was a gigantic cockroach, and at least he set Trunks up to finish the job.

Point is, it doesn't matter who's stronger, Vegetto is still Best Boy.

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Rakurai » Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:08 pm

SSJgogeto wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:44 am

Nopes, the two are. In both cases you see what you want to see, and make some conclusions based in your point of view.
Rakurai wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:53 am
Super Dragon Ball Heroes Universe Mission translation compilation here. All translations are done and owned by me.

SDBH 9th anniversary the secret development interview here. Learn how original SDBH characters such as SS3 Raditz, SS4 Bardock, Robel, & more were conceived!

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