Unpopular DB opinions

[Soppa Saia People]

I think a lot of us have trouble distinguishing between present day unpopular opinions and what would have been unpopular opinions back when we were first watching things. Like I remember getting tons of shit in middle school when I pointed out "MOAR SAIYANS" will just cheapen the ones we have. Fast forward 17 years and people seem to be lukewarm on the new Saiyans which is some major whiplash for me lol

not to mention that there's a lot of opinions on here that don't reay reflect the opinions of the more wider fanbase, so for instance, in a lot of places a take that says that the cell arc is bad would be pretty unpopular, but here ? it's more or less the majority take at this point, and has been for a while.

[Robo4900]

Budokai 3 is just a pretty okay but kinda bland fighting game.
Tenkaichi 3 is that but with worse mechanics, and less fighter variety despite its larger number of fighters and better arenas.
FighterZ didn't interest me in the slighest.
Xenoverse... Maybe I'll pick it up in a bargain bin for a fiver one day if I want something to grind at for a weekend.

DBZ Kakarot looks like half an interesting idea (a Dragon Ball RPG; and about fucking time they tried that again! Buu's Fury was like 15 years ago!), meshed with half "but dbz is mostly fighting games so let's not take too much of a risk by deviating from that."
So... I hope it's good, but I get the feeling I'll find it just as dull and unsatisfying as everyone's favourite bland fighting games that happen to have recognisable Dragon Ball characters' faces on them.
Like... It looks like, as much as them finally deciding to do a Dragon Ball RPG is cool, the way they've executed it is to basically do the campaign of the Tenkaichi games but with the freeroam segments more polished up, and with the fighting more seamlessly integrated with the freeroam.

So, I'm fully expecting it to be very well-loved by the people who ate up Budokai, Tenkaichi, Xenoverse, FighterZ, etc., but that it won't interest me in the slighest, and I'll continue to lament the lack of variety of Dragon Ball games while everyone else rolls their eyes at my inability to enjoy the same thing done over and over again that I already wasn't big on the first several times they did it (gives a dirty look in the direction of the ResF, U6 tournament, and Tournament Of Power storylines, just to throw in a Super dunk for anyone playing "Robo Hot Takes Bingo").

--

The Dragon Ball video game I want to see is Legacy Of Goku but covering the entire original manga storyline (or, hell, do the full original anime storyline. GT's setup would've probably made for some fun Legacy Of Goku stuff), and a bit more polished up (take away the stupid level gates that just pad the game out, make the level curve of the game smoother, and don't do that Buu's Fury AI oversight where enemies can just be backed up into a corner and punched until they die). Just give me that and I'll never complain about the state of Dragon Ball video games again.

[ABED]

I think a lot of us have trouble distinguishing between present day unpopular opinions and what would have been unpopular opinions back when we were first watching things. Like I remember getting tons of shit in middle school when I pointed out "MOAR SAIYANS" will just cheapen the ones we have. Fast forward 17 years and people seem to be lukewarm on the new Saiyans which is some major whiplash for me lol

not to mention that there's a lot of opinions on here that don't reay reflect the opinions of the more wider fanbase, so for instance, in a lot of places a take that says that the cell arc is bad would be pretty unpopular, but here ? it's more or less the majority take at this point, and has been for a while.

I've come around on that opinion. I don't dislike the Cell arc, but it's boring for large chunks. The Buu arc is all over the place quality wise, but it has a lot of stand out moments.

[Scsigs]

I've come around on that opinion. I don't dislike the Cell arc, but it's boring for large chunks. The Buu arc is all over the place quality wise, but it has a lot of stand out moments.

The Cell Arc is actually pretty exciting, but then again, I've only fully experienced it through Kai & the games. I've only seen the Cell Games for the OG Z version of it, so I'll take your word for that version of it. The arc, imo, just keeps going pace-wise & doesn't let up until the ride is over. Most of what happens is also pretty intriguing, but YMMV on that.

The Buu Saga, however, has SERIOUS pacing issues, only made slightly worse in the Z anime. Kai improved the pace dramatically in anime form, though could've stood to have more of the filler removed, mostly the Hell scenes. But, the story doesn't have a consistent pace or flow to it whatsoever, since the story could've stopped 3 or 4 times before it actually does, stuff is forced along unnecessarily, & not a lot happens in terms of the cool moments actually services the plot because they're just ideas that aren't given much in the way of real importance. Fusion is more effectively used in the Future Trunks Arc of Super than it is in the Buu Saga.

[ABED]

Even with Kai, much of the Cell arc is really boring with the only interesting fights being Piccolo vs 17 which didn't really end, and Goku vs. Cell. Other than that, it's not all that interesting.

I acknowledge the Buu arc's pacing issues but I absolutely love Gohan/Videl, Kid Buu, Vegeta vs. Fat Buu, Vegetto, Mr. Satan's arc, SSJ3 Goku vs. Buu, and have even come around on the ending. While I understand your point about Fusion not contributing much, I like the subversion of expectations. It's not some cheap transformation or power up that saved the day.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

I wouldn't call the Cell arc boring but yeah there's a lot of... still moments. Shame the anime didn't go all in on the horror elements. In my opinion their willingness to play up Piccolo as a corrupting force greatly enhanced the Piccolo Daimao arc (which also had too many still moments). The few episodes of stage 1 Cell tracking down and murdering people were some of my favorite parts of the anime.

[Gaffer Tape]

Much as I actually like Super, I do agree with this. It seems like in the gap of time between GT and Super, the writers at Toei swung the Goku pendulum in the opposite direction. Instead of being overly-heroic and competent like in Z-filler and GT, they made him way too goofy and almost callous in Super.

I wonder how much of it is Toei's fault and whether or not Toriyama's outlines included anything in them that made Goku look like a bad dad.

I feel that Super tends to draw some of its characterization from pop cultural osmosis. Goku's a bad dad because that's what the fandom has built him into. Yamcha is an embarrassment to his own friend group because that's the kind of person the fandom has drawn him as. I'm not necessarily saying that's wrong. Art doesn't exist in a vacuum, and long-running franchises often evolve in such ways. But since this is a very late-edition sequel, the fact that 20+ years of fanbase-development evolution has occurred while the series itself is ostensibly supposed to be in the same time period, the result is very jarring.

[ABED]

Much as I actually like Super, I do agree with this. It seems like in the gap of time between GT and Super, the writers at Toei swung the Goku pendulum in the opposite direction. Instead of being overly-heroic and competent like in Z-filler and GT, they made him way too goofy and almost callous in Super.

I wonder how much of it is Toei's fault and whether or not Toriyama's outlines included anything in them that made Goku look like a bad dad.

I feel that Super tends to draw some of its characterization from pop cultural osmosis. Goku's a bad dad because that's what the fandom has built him into. Yamcha is an embarrassment to his own friend group because that's the kind of person the fandom has drawn him as. I'm not necessarily saying that's wrong. Art doesn't exist in a vacuum, and long-running franchises often evolve in such ways. But since this is a very late-edition sequel, the fact that 20+ years of fanbase-development evolution has occurred while the series itself is ostensibly supposed to be in the same time period, the result is very jarring.

They do often evolve into that, but usually at their own expense and usually to play to the crowd.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

Much as I actually like Super, I do agree with this. It seems like in the gap of time between GT and Super, the writers at Toei swung the Goku pendulum in the opposite direction. Instead of being overly-heroic and competent like in Z-filler and GT, they made him way too goofy and almost callous in Super.

I wonder how much of it is Toei's fault and whether or not Toriyama's outlines included anything in them that made Goku look like a bad dad.

I feel that Super tends to draw some of its characterization from pop cultural osmosis. Goku's a bad dad because that's what the fandom has built him into. Yamcha is an embarrassment to his own friend group because that's the kind of person the fandom has drawn him as. I'm not necessarily saying that's wrong. Art doesn't exist in a vacuum, and long-running franchises often evolve in such ways. But since this is a very late-edition sequel, the fact that 20+ years of fanbase-development evolution has occurred while the series itself is ostensibly supposed to be in the same time period, the result is very jarring.

They do often evolve into that, but usually at their own expense and usually to play to the crowd.

To borrow a non-anime example, this is probably why Voyager and Enterprise sucked as bad as they did. Too much playing to the crowd and not enough following through on the premise of your story.

But I'm still hoping that Super was just a hype package. Something to gauge how receptive the public would be to more Dragon Ball stories before TOEI commits to a proper sequel series. An otaku can dream...

[Scsigs]

To borrow a non-anime example, this is probably why Voyager and Enterprise sucked as bad as they did. Too much playing to the crowd and not enough following through on the premise of your story.

But I'm still hoping that Super was just a hype package. Something to gauge how receptive the public would be to more Dragon Ball stories before TOEI commits to a proper sequel series. An otaku can dream...

Voyager sucked because it was the same writers from TNG producing the exact same stories on a weekly basis being exhausted from it coupled with a network that mandated that they not make the human characters more interesting than the aliens & a lack of caring for story arcs, continuity, or the show's main premise. This resulted in weak storytelling most of the time, annoying character traits, character arcs randomly stopping or ending, inconsistent characterization, & bland writing for the majority of the main cast to have to work with despite their acting chops being higher grade than what they were able to put out consistently. Janeway suffered from this the most because she had 2 or 3 personalities she would switch between between episodes & sometimes between scenes depending on the writer & Jeri Taylor particularly loved to put Janeway in the right even when she wasn't. You can even see it on screen with Chakotay, as his actor actively hated what he was given to work with (essentially inconsistent nothing). To show how much they didn't care about character writing, when Ronald D. Moore came over to the show after DS9 ended, he tried to ask about B'Elanna as a character, but got answer that basically boiled down to the rest of the staff didn't care & he could d whatever he wanted with her in episodes. He understandably got frustrated at the general lazy atmosphere there until he quit weeks later. That's how bad it was & that was season 5 or 6.

Enterprise is that times 10. The writers, often just exhausted from working on Star Trek for over a decade on multiple shows, were tasked with writing a prequel that also had future elements to the entire franchise up until that point, but were unable to really come up with much that was really interesting or new. It didn't start to pick up until season 3 & got better in season 4 when they got a new showrunner, then had a shit series finale when it didn't pick up in ratings.

Dragon Ball Super is a result of pop cultural osmosis, yes, but that's mainly in the writers over correcting when it comes to how Toriyama complained about how Toei previously portrayed Goku because they didn't know how to read through the manga, or even at least watch Battle of Gods, to understand Goku well enough, which resulted in Goku having an inconsistent personality. I hate how people come back at people complaining about Goku's portrayal in the Super anime saying that the Z dub colored people's perception of the character, even though I have only been playing the games & watching Kai & the last 3 films & I complain because Goku's been flanderized the opposite way than how he was 20-30 years ago regardless of the dub. Super suffers from writing problems like that, pacing problems because the writers didn't know how to properly pace the Future Trunks arc or the Tournament of Power at all, or how to properly build up Trunks' importance in his arc, as well as confronting Toriyama about his more bad ideas, & the animation not given enough time to be done...ever with the artstyle they were working with. And I think the writers at Toei were more comfortable writing stuff like One Piece as opposed to Dragon Ball.

[Dbzfan94]

I feel that Super tends to draw some of its characterization from pop cultural osmosis. Goku's a bad dad because that's what the fandom has built him into. Yamcha is an embarrassment to his own friend group because that's the kind of person the fandom has drawn him as. I'm not necessarily saying that's wrong. Art doesn't exist in a vacuum, and long-running franchises often evolve in such ways. But since this is a very late-edition sequel, the fact that 20+ years of fanbase-development evolution has occurred while the series itself is ostensibly supposed to be in the same time period, the result is very jarring.

This makes a really good, albeit unfortunate, point. People demonize Funimation for playing into the memes and yet Toei does the same, arguably worse stuff. Especially n regards to the bad dad crap because the same who shit on Goku are the same ones parading Vegeta as father of the year. It's sad. I legitimately feel DBS has permanently damaged this franchise and its fanbase.

The few episodes of stage 1 Cell tracking down and murdering people were some of my favorite parts of the anime.

I always felt this too!! The way the anime handled Cell's buildup and reveal was amazing. I understand the compliants with the arc but to me that portion was amazing.

[Mad Swami]

I'm pretty sure GT being good ideas, bad execution has always been the majority opinion.

However, I disagree that Uub getting more of a lead role is a good idea. I see nothing interesting in him beyond what he represented for Goku.

I think there is a lot interesting with Uub. Reincarnation of one of the most destructive forces in the universe, youthful fight loving apprentice to Goku, someone with great potential. Honestly would loved to seem him done great. I currently write my own version of the GT story on Fan Fiction.com check it out if you want. There I try to do with Uub what I think could be done

[Scsigs]

I feel that Super tends to draw some of its characterization from pop cultural osmosis. Goku's a bad dad because that's what the fandom has built him into. Yamcha is an embarrassment to his own friend group because that's the kind of person the fandom has drawn him as. I'm not necessarily saying that's wrong. Art doesn't exist in a vacuum, and long-running franchises often evolve in such ways. But since this is a very late-edition sequel, the fact that 20+ years of fanbase-development evolution has occurred while the series itself is ostensibly supposed to be in the same time period, the result is very jarring.

This makes a really good, albeit unfortunate, point. People demonize Funimation for playing into the memes and yet Toei does the same, arguably worse stuff. Especially n regards to the bad dad crap because the same who shit on Goku are the same ones parading Vegeta as father of the year. It's sad. I legitimately feel DBS has permanently damaged this franchise and its fanbase.

Yeah. Here's the thing no one gets. FUNi's version of DB is a dub & it's NOWHERE NEAR Z-levels of legit awful. Is it 100% in-line with the Japanese? No. Is that a bad thing? No, minus a few times where them trying to do something a little different in either the script for some lines or slight additions felt stupid or off. You can always just watch the sub still if you're at all disappointed with how another dub turned out. That'll always be there. Currently, FUNi is on top of their game when it comes to dubbing anime & DB has never been in a safer place dub-wise because FUNi actually knows what they're doing & any decisions they make feel like they actually thought about them as opposed to putting in stupid line changes for awkward & forced comedy or changing lines to change character personalities or motivations that make no sense. Every character still feels like they should, just in a slightly different flavor. Sabat has fun directing the dub. That man is as big a fan of the material as anyone else. That's who you want directing these things. You can not like decisions he's made, but you can't say the man doesn't love DB & doesn't work hard to maintain a consistently good product.

Toei is another beast entirely. You can just revert back to the original Japanese if you hate a dub, but you cannot switch to different animation if a scene you don't like sucks. I mean, Toei's original writers & animators did more to screw up the show than FUNi did. FUNi were just working with the material present in the original scripts & animation. Or lest we forget about the shot of Mr. Popo's eyes where he's just staring into your soul like TFS has been doing since fucking 2008, or Gowasu joking that he's, "Thinking about becoming a GodTuber," & the like. Can't take those out & ignore them, nope! And you can't take out how Goku is consistently portrayed as an immature, stupid dumbass who doesn't care for his family or friends. Goku's not immature, he's just more of a big kid who's very excitable, he's not a dumbass, he's just not book smart & has considerable fighting skills, & he cares a LOT for his family & friends, or else he wouldn't care to be around them. Super also focuses more on comedy than it should out of keeping respect for the characters, which is just irksome.

When it comes to Vegeta, I'm sorry, but he's just as bad as Goku on a lot of things. The first time we see 8-year-old Trunks in Z, they establish that Vegeta trains him in combat all the time. Goku did the same shit for Gohan, the only difference is that Bulma accepts Vegeta for who he is as opposed to Chichi, who has never fully accepted Goku for who he is. Vegeta sacrificed himself just like Goku did twice in a heroic fashion. Vegeta also gets fully cocky of himself against Cell, just like Goku sometimes does. The only difference between the 2, other than their personalities & intelligence levels, is that Vegeta got more outward character development in 4 arcs than Goku has the entire franchise. Goku's no saint, but he's no devil either. I have no idea why people point to Vegeta being father of the year when he's never really been a good father to Trunks.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

I think FUNi gets more hate purely because they're trying to "adapt" something whereas TOEI is very obviously only interested in milking their products dry before moving on to the next money teet. Sort of like how no one is ever mad at Michael Bay (out in meat space I mean. I know it's not hard to find film lovers who absolutely loath him) but comics who try and arguably fail to elevate Transformers get months long roastings. There's something about being entirely mercenary or profit driven that sort of just innoculates media companies from criticism.

And you can't take out how Goku is consistently portrayed as an immature, stupid dumbass who doesn't care for his family or friends.

This honestly gets under my skin when I think about it too much. Goku, strongest under the heavens on Earth, begged Raditz to spare his son. There was no pride, no thirst for stronger opponenets, just a father pleading for his son's life. Maybe it's my own bias speaking as that was effectively my introduction to him but how does he go from such a loving father to season 20 Homer Simpson? Why would you even want him to turn into that? It makes him so much less relateable and likeable as a protagonist.

[Scsigs]

I think FUNi gets more hate purely because they're trying to "adapt" something whereas TOEI is very obviously only interested in milking their products dry before moving on to the next money teet. Sort of like how no one is ever mad at Michael Bay (out in meat space I mean. I know it's not hard to find film lovers who absolutely loath him) but comics who try and arguably fail to elevate Transformers get months long roastings. There's something about being entirely mercenary or profit driven that sort of just inoculates media companies from criticism.

Well, here's the thing. Toei is money hungry, yes, but I'm pretty sure they want something that's a good a product as possible from a writing standpoint, otherwise they wouldn't get money. It's like Disney funding the Star Wars or Marvel movies. They try to keep a consistent level of quality so they can get as good a return on their investments as possible. Disney cares a lot about their bottom line, & Toei does too. I'm willing to bet that was one of the reasons they ended Super when they did despite the manga going on. It's definitely one of the reasons Kai: TFC was made. They saw how well-received Kai was overseas & decided to put together the last arc for overseas broadcasts.

And you can't take out how Goku is consistently portrayed as an immature, stupid dumbass who doesn't care for his family or friends.

This honestly gets under my skin when I think about it too much. Goku, strongest under the heavens on Earth, begged Raditz to spare his son. There was no pride, no thirst for stronger opponents, just a father pleading for his son's life. Maybe it's my own bias speaking as that was effectively my introduction to him but how does he go from such a loving father to season 20 Homer Simpson? Why would you even want him to turn into that? It makes him so much less relatable and likable as a protagonist.

I mean, how does Homer Simpson become season 20 Homer Simpson? Flanderization & new writers. When Toriyama is in charge of writing scripts, Goku is perfectly in-line with his characterization from the last few arcs of Z & the manga. However, when one of Toei's writers working from Toriyama's plot outlines writes him, they make him...the Goku in Super.
Some people are also way too quick to die on a hill for Toriyama's "original intention" for Goku & use the, "Oh, you're more used to the Z dub that changed Goku into a Superhero. THIS is how Goku was MEANT to be seen," kinda like how FUNi consistently lie about their home releases of Z...even though Toriyama's also stated his frustration with the Super anime. I also can't jive with that whatsoever. I watch the Cell & Buu Sagas &, even when Goku was at his MOST dumb & badly portrayed in the original Z or manga, he wasn't how he is in Super, which is essentially Monkey D. Luffy...only dumber somehow & not as strong a moral compass, which is NOT how Goku is. He has a moral compass. Sometimes it gets sidelined by his hunger for battle & training, but he's not that big of an asshole, otherwise he wouldn't be the person who consistently fights bad people to make sure they don't continue their shit, y'know?

[sunsetshimmer]

"Super Vegeta" form was way better than actual SSJ2 form.
I'd rather see SSJ2 being more powerful but slower, just like SSJ3 had its drawbacks in form of huge ki drain. Forms like SSJ4 or SSJB were better than SSJ in like every way, but considering they come from different line of evolution with some unique traits it's not a big deal. But SSJ2 is nothing more but SSJ upgrade.

[ABED]

I'm pretty sure GT being good ideas, bad execution has always been the majority opinion.

However, I disagree that Uub getting more of a lead role is a good idea. I see nothing interesting in him beyond what he represented for Goku.

I think there is a lot interesting with Uub. Reincarnation of one of the most destructive forces in the universe, youthful fight loving apprentice to Goku, someone with great potential. Honestly would loved to seem him done great. I currently write my own version of the GT story on Fan Fiction.com check it out if you want. There I try to do with Uub what I think could be done

How is it one of the most destructive forces in the universe?

Maybe it's my own bias speaking as that was effectively my introduction to him but how does he go from such a loving father to season 20 Homer Simpson

I've seen every episode of the Simpsons and I don't see any fundamental difference in Homer as a father. He's always been a flawed but ultimately loving dad. To the extent that the series changed is less to do with different writers and mostly due to the function of the show changing. It used to be a satire of American sitcoms which were mostly about perfect families, but as TV programming changed, that function was no longer necessary and the show needed to evolve.

To keep this about DB, I think people don't get that even if Goku is primarily driven by fighting, that doesn't mean he doesn't have other concerns - for instance his family. And second, I don't think Goku's personality has necessarily been flanderized as much as the stakes have changed. They're a LOT bigger so his reckless behavior has greater consequences.

[MasenkoHA]

Oob is a pretty bland character. It’s not surprising GT really had no idea what to do with him and he ended up becoming another Gohan (character who we’re told could be the most powerful fighter but due to a lack of drive like Goku and Vegeta ended up mediocre)

Oob is a good idea for a series finale character; Goku is now the mentor who will pass on his knowledge like Grandpa Gohan, Roshi, Karin, God, and Kaio did for him. But he just isn’t interesting enough to keep on to when the show decides to go beyond that.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

"Super Vegeta" form was way better than actual SSJ2 form.
I'd rather see SSJ2 being more powerful but slower, just like SSJ3 had its drawbacks in form of huge ki drain. Forms like SSJ4 or SSJB were better than SSJ in like every way, but considering they come from different line of evolution with some unique traits it's not a big deal. But SSJ2 is nothing more but SSJ upgrade.

On the topic of SS2, I hate that Gohan obtains it to defeat Cell. Gohan's latent power never had anything to do with transformations and from how Goku described their time in the RoST it sounded like Gohan was subconsciously adjusting his power to match the person he was fighting. So why would Gohan need to go SSJ2? How would he even go SSJ2? If Toriyama needed a transformation why not just make 16's death be what makes Gohan go SSJ and have Goku reveal that Gohan's base state was equal to his own SSJ state.

Some people are also way too quick to die on a hill for Toriyama's "original intention" for Goku & use the, "Oh, you're more used to the Z dub that changed Goku into a Superhero. THIS is how Goku was MEANT to be seen," kinda like how FUNi consistently lie about their home releases of Z...even though Toriyama's also stated his frustration with the Super anime. I also can't jive with that whatsoever. I watch the Cell & Buu Sagas &, even when Goku was at his MOST dumb & badly portrayed in the original Z or manga, he wasn't how he is in Super, which is essentially Monkey D. Luffy...only dumber somehow & not as strong a moral compass, which is NOT how Goku is. He has a moral compass. Sometimes it gets sidelined by his hunger for battle & training, but he's not that big of an asshole, otherwise he wouldn't be the person who consistently fights bad people to make sure they don't continue their shit, y'know?

I haven't watched enough One Piece to really comment on whether Goku has (ironically) become a Luffy clones but I absolutely do agree that people get way too hung up on original intention. As absurd as this is going to sound, writers are the last people you should ask about their characters. They have way too intimate a relationship with them and it colors their vision. It's almost like describing a close family member to a stranger. You can describe pretty reliably what your family member would do/say but the way you describe them probably wouldn't be all that objective. Take, for example, the queen of mystery stories, Agatha Christie and her creation Hercule Poirot. If asked, Christie would consistently describe Poirot as a self-important fop not half as smart as he thinks he is and who's way too interested in his own fame. But when it came time to write him, Christie always depicted the same good natured, if vain, relentless detective clearly motivated by a strong belief in justice.

Maybe this is me giving Toriyama too much credit but that feels like the situation with Goku.

[ABED]

Oob is a pretty bland character. It’s not surprising GT really had no idea what to do with him and he ended up becoming another Gohan (character who we’re told could be the most powerful fighter but due to a lack of drive like Goku and Vegeta ended up mediocre)

Oob is a good idea for a series finale character; Goku is now the mentor who will pass on his knowledge like Grandpa Gohan, Roshi, Karin, God, and Kaio did for him. But he just isn’t interesting enough to keep on to when the show decides to go beyond that.

Because Uub doesn't have to be interesting as a character. He serves an important purpose. It's fine if not every character is a three dimensional fully fleshed out person.