Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 4 - DB Episodes 16-20

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Well, a new week is upon us, so having watched all the episodes here's my thoughts.

Episode 16 - Training: The Stone Hunt

Some neat stuff in this episode. We see more clever use of the hoi poi capsules by transporting the Kame House. Lunch's personality switch becomes even more threatening as we see fear from both Roshi and Kuririn. Conversely Roshi also shows his more knowledgeable side, giving Goku and Kuririn useful advice about measuring leg strength, mental power and concentration. Goku and Kuririn also get more bonding time, showing a brotherly sort of bond. Funniest part is Kuririn always unintentionally sabataging Roshi's plans to harass Lunch.

Episode 17 - With Life At Stake! Milk Delivery

Love the tranquil sound we get from Kikuchi setting the scene for a peaceful night in the opening. That is flipped on its head once Roshi shows his tough side, waking Goku and Kuririn early, although his continued attempts to harass Lunch make him look even more twisted. Roshi's dedication to physical exercise is shown by refusing a helicopter and Kinto Un. Interestingly Goku shows more persistence than the panicking and sweating Kuririn, emphasizing Roshi is doing something right as a teacher. Seeing Bulma cheer on Yamcha was also nice as it gives their relationship more development.

Episode 18 - Kame-sen’s Method of Inte~nse Training

Good to see the culmination of Roshi's training with both Goku and Kuririn feeling exhausted and the latter asking if it will be like this every morning. The fact Kuririn asks lends itself well to Goku being the more passionate of the two. We also see the roots of Goku's dislike for traditional education through Roshi's failed attempts at schooling him. That is not the only life skill we see Roshi attempting to teach as he instructs Goku and Kuririn to plough the fields, and later suggests they try earn a wage by helping builders, he also consistently conveys a message this is only the beginning to keep the audience engaged. While Goku's irritation from the lack of martial arts is apparent, it's good to see how he reacts in different forms of personal development. Interestingly we see some self-awareness from Lunch who tries to avoid sneezing.

Episode 19 - The Tenka’ichi Budōkai Begins!

After a few episodes of rigorous training Goku and Kuririn's buffet feels earned. We also get the sense that when it comes to personalities fighter types differ from domestic types as Lunch appears shocked by how much they eat. While Goku is still excited to practice more combat Roshi shows more wisdom informing him it's not the skill, but it's application. We see a great training sequence from Yamcha, whom being shrowded in shadow adds some mystique. Furthermore his banter with Bulma progresses as she gets frustrated by his lack of contact and once she sees him advises him about hairstyles and fashion. There is also some wonderful allegories for opposites attract with a country bumpkin's (Goku) awe and a lone fighter in the wilderness (Yamcha) desire to return to the city.

Episode 20 - Will it Appear?! The Power of Training

Best thing about this episode for me was the character moments, specifically Goku and Kuririn. While Bulma and Oolong we get some funny moments with the former using the latter for their own benefit, the latter sneakily sees it as a "perk", although these jokes are arguably exhausted by this point. It's also nice to see Kuririn's sensitive side after him teasing Goku in the early stages of their friendship. As Kuririn looks at the other fighters with hesitation, Goku, through his love for fighting builds him up, especially when it comes to past bullies Kuririn has to confront. Overall, a satisfactory introductory episode to the tournament with much promise for it to be a positive experience for all our heroes.

[Robo4900]

I'll post the new thread later today. I'm a bit behind, though, so I'll be posting in this thread for a couple more days before moving on.

Also, apologies if I annoyed anyone with my views on subtitles.
I don't really feel like going around in circles re-stating my opinions when it's clear we have differing opinions, so I'm not going to argue further on that.

Episode 18 - Kame-sen’s Method of Inte~nse Training

Ah! This one opens (after the title card) with that old favourite tournament theme of mine.
As a kid, I always loved these shots of dojos and such where people are training to be in the tournament.

"What's the matter? You'll be defeated in the preliminaries like that!" lol. I don't remember him in the main tournament, so you're probably right.

Hm. Kind of an abrupt cut back to Goku, Kuririn, and Roshi.
Oh well.


I love this image so much.
Not only is it a funny image, but you can really feel Goku and Kuririn beginning to bond over their gruelling training regime.
Man, I love this training stuff. Always throws me right back to being a kid and watching this for the first time. And it still holds up.

It's the simple things that really make this. Even as a kid, I thought Roshi having Goku & Kuririn study before lunch was a really cool choice.
Also LOL at what Goku is reading out. (And furthermore LOL at Goku's childish, stilted, monotone reading)
The book Goku reads, Bob And Margaret, later inspires Boo to duplicate himself to make a wife, and found the Boo race, according to the really damn stupid Dragon Ball Online lore.

And here we have something that's so easily missed (lookin' at you Super. And also Star Wars: The Rise Of Skywalker)... Roshi, Kuririn, and Goku just take a moment to rest, which Roshi considers an essential part of their training regimen... And we see all the other guys taking a rest too.
This beat didn't have to be here to tell the story, but it's a really good beat to have.
To quote the much-maligned Death Note movie (which I actually quite enjoyed, to be honest), "Sleep is essential to strong thought."

So good of Roshi to negotiate wages for Goku and Kuririn. Just another little thing that shows he looks out for his students.
I'm given to understand the flashback to the Orinji temple is anime-only/filler, but I think it adds to an understanding of Kuririn, and helps with setting up his character growth.

Roshi and the boulders is great.

"However, for whatever reason, this lake has sharks in it!"
That's some susipicious phrasing...
Did...
Did Roshi put those sharks in there?
(Also the Jaws sting is great)

I love these episodes.

Alright. Working on the week 5 thread now. Should be up soon.
But, then I have to follow the example of Goku and Kuririn, and get to some studying myself.

[MasenkoHA]

Actually let’s talk about the story Roshi has Goku and Kuririn read

“Hee hee that tickles, don’t. Mama will soon be home you know” said Margaret. However Bob forced himself...

Gotta love that Roshi is apparently having the kids read a story with incest.


The Funi dub by the way

“Susie that tickled what if they find us here,”’ said Bill.But Susie did not stop holding his foot lightly in her hand”


Amusing for

1. They changed the names for some reason. From basic ass old fashion english names to equally basic ass old fashion english names. Why bother? I believe they do this again with Murasaki and change the number Goku had an issue with when counting.

2. The instigator and the reluctant party switch genders. Maybe Funimation thought it was less rapey somehow?

3. It’s still kind of smutty but much less than the original. No implication of incest or being forceful.

[KBABZ]

Actually let’s talk about the story Roshi has Goku and Kuririn read

“Hee hee that tickles, don’t. Mama will soon be home you know” said Margaret. However Bob forced himself...

Gotta love that Roshi is apparently having the kids read a story with incest.

I think that's Margaret's mother who will specifically be home soon.

I agree as well, the emphasis on rest. It shows that Roshi has considered his training and it isn't all just greuling work for seemingly no reason.

[Dragon Sponge]

Actually let’s talk about the story Roshi has Goku and Kuririn read

“Hee hee that tickles, don’t. Mama will soon be home you know” said Margaret. However Bob forced himself...

Gotta love that Roshi is apparently having the kids read a story with incest.

I think that's Margaret's mother who will specifically be home soon.

Interestingly in the German Dub Magaret and Bob are actually said to be silbings but the Dialogue was toned down enough so that it implies there more that he´s just simply tickling her instead of doing sexual Stuff thats tickling. I´ll will write about this in more Detail when i cover this Episode in this Thread.

[MasenkoHA]

Actually let’s talk about the story Roshi has Goku and Kuririn read

“Hee hee that tickles, don’t. Mama will soon be home you know” said Margaret. However Bob forced himself...

Gotta love that Roshi is apparently having the kids read a story with incest.

I think that's Margaret's mother who will specifically be home soon.

I agree as well, the emphasis on rest. It shows that Roshi has considered his training and it isn't all just greuling work for seemingly no reason.

Meh I was under the impression she was both Bob and Maragret’s mom since she said “Mama will be home soon” not “My mama will be home soon”

[Robo4900]

Actually let’s talk about the story Roshi has Goku and Kuririn read

“Hee hee that tickles, don’t. Mama will soon be home you know” said Margaret. However Bob forced himself...

Gotta love that Roshi is apparently having the kids read a story with incest.

I think that's Margaret's mother who will specifically be home soon.

I agree as well, the emphasis on rest. It shows that Roshi has considered his training and it isn't all just greuling work for seemingly no reason.

Meh I was under the impression she was both Bob and Maragret’s mom since she said “Mama will be home soon” not “My mama will be home soon”

I think we'd need to consult someone who actually understands Japanese to clarify this; it's possible this is made vague by translation, but is clearer in the original.

Hey Herms, do you happen to be lurking? Daimao? Julian?

Interestingly in the German Dub Magaret and Bob are actually said to be silbings but the Dialogue was toned down enough so that it implies there more that he´s just simply tickling her instead of doing sexual Stuff thats tickling. I´ll will write about this in more Detail when i cover this Episode in this Thread.

Interesting.

(BTW, I found your posts in the other thread interesting too; I just didn't have anything to say other than that, really. I look forward to seeing more of your thoughts as we progress. )

[Dragon Sponge]

Interestingly in the German Dub Magaret and Bob are actually said to be silbings but the Dialogue was toned down enough so that it implies there more that he´s just simply tickling her instead of doing sexual Stuff thats tickling. I´ll will write about this in more Detail when i cover this Episode in this Thread.

Interesting.

(BTW, I found your posts in the other thread interesting too; I just didn't have anything to say other than that, really. I look forward to seeing more of your thoughts as we progress. )

Thank you very much Robo! ^^ I will try to continue my German Dub Observations soon.

[Robo4900]

Okay, let's do this...

Episode 19 - The Tenkaichi Tournament Begins

I love the lack of fanfair before the title card here. The sounds of nature, the gong, etc. Really unique atmosphere.

The tournament is five months away? So, we're... What, three months into the training at the beginning of this episode?

Man, this is a really pretty episode. The nature, the field with Lunch picking flowers, the landscaping of the field, etc... As they say, every frame, a painting.
And I love this as the beginning of the insane easting running joke, too.
... I'm just gonna ignore Roshi's perverse antics under the table.

I love the ridiculous amount of rice Lunch made.

"I'll do it next! I can't move it as much as Goku, but still..."
Character growth!
Kuririn learning some humility is nice. By this point, it already feels like Goku and Kuririn are best buddies, and both have grown for it. It's great.

"[Martial arts] are to keep you from losing to yourselves. To that end, you are to utilise the basics you have acquired up to now to think up your own fighting styles and learn them yourselves!"
I may be wrong, but I recall the dub glossed over this. And it's a really cool detail, and quite telling of Roshi's teaching style; he's not trying to shape you up into anything in particular, he's just pushing you on your way to become a really great version of yourself, essentially.
... Of course, Goku would end up stealing basically all his key techniques from everyone else as the run goes on, but that's neither here nor there.

I can't say it enough how much I love Roshi's consistent "the point is not to win!"... He's not just training their bodies and minds, but also teaching them some valuable life lessons/philosophies. He's practically saying to their faces that the point isn't that he's going to teach them techniques, or do special "martial arts training" -- life is the lesson. You'll learn by living, essentially.

Also, damn, I forgot about this last episode, but this is the first time the gang would train with weighted clothing. It comes in the form of a giant turtle shell on their backs, but weighted clothing as a general concept would, of course, become key to their training throughout the rest of the run.
Just one of many, many little things that just build on themselves and each-other to make Dragon Ball what it is. Every single thing you like about Dragon Ball that came after the first arc or two is something that was slowly set up and built up from various base ideas. I think that's something Super and GT were missing to an extent, to be honest. And arguably something that was even missing from parts of the Boo arc; stuff just kinda happens, there's not always an effort to build on what you've done, and progress forward naturally, there's more of an emphasis in GT on doing big, ambitious ideas, and in Super, more of an emphasis on staying exactly where things are, just with flashier fights and transformations to play with.

I love the wolf howl when we cut to Yamucha.

So Yamucha spent a month on the mountain?
I guess he was trying to follow Goku's example of getting stronger by surviving in the wilderness. Clever. Though I can see why Bulma's cross at him for it.

Maybe Bulma needs to watch a traffic safety PSA.

Goku and Kuririn running around at crazy speeds is delightful and wholesome.
Speaking of delightful and wholesome, man, Lunch is a good tailor. Wish she was accompanying the guys to the tournament grounds. Oh well, we'll see that when we get to the next tournament.

Dunno how many of these I'll do, but I loved this panning shot and thought it deserved the combining treatment:


Aww, Goku's so happy to see everyone. I love it.

And the iconic gi is on!
I love the cut from him holding the thing out to it being on Goku. It's great.
... Also, on an unrelated note, all the people in the backgrounds and foregrounds are frozen, like in mid-action... It's kind of freaky.

And our first little taste of my favourite insert song.
It's so hype!!

Episode 20 - Will It Appear?! The Power From The Training

So the tournament is held every five years?
And Goku is 12?
Does the time between tournaments go down?

"But I don't want to fight Goku!!"
Don't worry Kuririn, we're like 60 episodes away from that.

... Goddammit Toei. Not only is this perverse scene with everyone looking at Bulma's panties unnecessary, but the justification is paper-thin.
Thing is, looking at it, it seems like 99% of the uncomfortable perversity in Dragon Ball comes from Toei. This scene, all of Roshi's antics with Lunch... It's honestly just pretty annoying, that.

There's the rogafufu-ken pose and sound effect, but not the stock footage.

A fun pair of episodes.
Can't wait to get into the tournament itself!!

[MasenkoHA]

So the tournament is held every five years?
And Goku is 12?
Does the time between tournaments go down?

They do in fact establish in episode 78 it was changed to every 3 years which is why the 22nd Budokai takes place when Goku is 15 and why the 23rd takes places when he’s 18.


What they don’t explain is why 10 years later only one other Budokai took place (the one Mr.Satan won) and why it took another 7 years for the 25th Budokai.

[KBABZ]

I love the lack of fanfair before the title card here. The sounds of nature, the gong, etc. Really unique atmosphere.

Agreed. I change all of the title cards in T1C... except for this one. The art and purposefulness of this one means I broke that rule.

"[Martial arts] are to keep you from losing to yourselves. To that end, you are to utilise the basics you have acquired up to now to think up your own fighting styles and learn them yourselves!"
I may be wrong, but I recall the dub glossed over this. And it's a really cool detail, and quite telling of Roshi's teaching style; he's not trying to shape you up into anything in particular, he's just pushing you on your way to become a really great version of yourself, essentially.

It also kinda contradicts Roshi picking up on Chi-Chi's fighting style later!

The dub does include this, but rewords it. Krillin and Goku are excited to learn about Special Moves_TM, but Roshi chastises them and says that even after learning the basics, special moves aren't what the training is about. I like it in either take because it really helps establish Goku's fighting trait later of being aware of "battle tactics", which is what puts him apart from Krillin in the 22nd TB and will come into play when fighting Vegeta and Frieza.

I love the cut from him holding the thing out to it being on Goku. It's great.

I actually improve this one in T1C! The two halves of the shot don't line up quite right, so I did some finangling to make sure they align more naturally.

So the tournament is held every five years?
And Goku is 12?
Does the time between tournaments go down?

Yes; after the Baba mini-tournament, Roshi mentions that the tournament is now being held every three years due to the amount of fighters at the 21st TB.

You mentioned this earlier, but another reason why that run of episodes is so great (and to a lesser extent with Red Ribbon) is the utilization of the environment and setting as a mood. Similarly to The Mandalorian, OG DB is willing to just let you... sit, in its world. Goku running through the field, the characters sleeping in the hammocks, with headphones on and a light breeze through the window you honestly can feel like you're THERE.

Which again helps make you care and understand why Goku cares about the Earth blowing up beyond it being where his friends are much later in the story.

[Witty User Name]

I guess we are not there yet, but isn't episode 24 the one where Roshi steps out of the ring before the counting has reach 10? Roshi should have been eliminated then. I consider this to the first plothole in the series (and I even made a thread about it years ago). However, I have read the manga and this moment is absent (or at least downplayed).

[Robo4900]

I guess we are not there yet, but isn't episode 24 the one where Roshi steps out of the ring before the counting has reach 10? Roshi should have been eliminated then. I consider this to the first plothole in the series (and I even made a thread about it years ago). However, I have read the manga and this moment is absent (or at least downplayed).

Well, we are there, actually.
I mentioned it in the trivia section, on KBABZ's suggestion.

They do in fact establish in episode 78 it was changed to every 3 years which is why the 22nd Budokai takes place when Goku is 15 and why the 23rd takes places when he’s 18.

What they don’t explain is why 10 years later only one other Budokai took place (the one Mr.Satan won) and why it took another 7 years for the 25th Budokai.

Ah, I see.

In regards to the latter, I always assumed that after the horror of Piccolo briefly returning at that tournament, people were soured on it for a while. And maybe a lot of martial artists started to freak out after so many were killed by Piccolo (then Piccolo comes back just when everyone thinks they're safe again...). And of course, rebuilding the ring (and surrounding area?) after Goku and Piccolo destroyed it probably isn't exactly cheap or quick.
So, it just didn't happen for several years. Then eventually, they brought it back, probably with some backing from Mr Satan's marketing team to essentially do the revived tournament as a publicity thing for him.
Just to briefly step into 100% unsubstantiated headcanon, I like to imagine that Mr Satan had the first revived tournament held as sort of an invitational; he and his team invited some reputable strong fighters, probably the thing was televised for the first time (I see no cameras in the 21st-23rd, though we know from the 22nd that it's on radio, at least)...

As for why it took another 7 after that... Maybe initially it was more of a one-off than a full-on "let's bring this back as a regular thing". Maybe the organisers were keen to bring it back, but Mr Satan was busy with other things, I'm guessing a lot of martial artists were starting to get hungry for it...
Maybe they decided it was better to hold bigger tournaments but only do them every 7 years? Maybe they were working out the kinks of improving the tournament for the modern age? After all, I think they say the 25th was the first time they did junior and adult divisions, and brought in the strength measuring machine instead of doing preliminaries.

It also kinda contradicts Roshi picking up on Chi-Chi's fighting style later!

The dub does include this, but rewords it. Krillin and Goku are excited to learn about Special Moves_TM, but Roshi chastises them and says that even after learning the basics, special moves aren't what the training is about. I like it in either take because it really helps establish Goku's fighting trait later of being aware of "battle tactics", which is what puts him apart from Krillin in the 22nd TB and will come into play when fighting Vegeta and Frieza.

I dunno if it contradicts him recognising Chichi's, there's no reason for him not to know how his old student the Gyuumao fights, and thus be able to recognise similar moves his daughter may have picked up.
Though IIRC he does recognise Grandpa Gohan's fighting style in the Baba arc?
Oh well.

That element of the dub's take is kinda neat, though I prefer the Japanese version feeling much more like him teaching them some philosophical lessons, and using martial arts as a way to teach the boys to live full, rounded lives. I feel that was downplayed a little in the Funi dub.

I actually improve this one in T1C! The two halves of the shot don't line up quite right, so I did some finangling to make sure they align more naturally.

Nice!

You mentioned this earlier, but another reason why that run of episodes is so great (and to a lesser extent with Red Ribbon) is the utilization of the environment and setting as a mood. Similarly to The Mandalorian, OG DB is willing to just let you... sit, in its world. Goku running through the field, the characters sleeping in the hammocks, with headphones on and a light breeze through the window you honestly can feel like you're THERE.

Which again helps make you care and understand why Goku cares about the Earth blowing up beyond it being where his friends are much later in the story.

Yeah, I agree. It's nice.

I do think it's an underrated aspect of a lot of stories to give things some chill time. We do get some of that in Z; in fact, I think the Cell Games are immensely improved by the chilled-out filler stories from just before. Could be tied into the ongoing story a little better, but it really lets you sit in the world for a bit, watch the characters hang out in what could be their last days together, etc.

[KBABZ]

And of course, rebuilding the ring (and surrounding area?) after Goku and Piccolo destroyed it probably isn't exactly cheap or quick.

I've actually asked this question before, but do we KNOW that the site for the Tournament in the Buu Arc is Papaya Island again? I don't think it was ever mentioned!

[MyVisionity]

It also kinda contradicts Roshi picking up on Chi-Chi's fighting style later!

I dunno if it contradicts him recognising Chichi's, there's no reason for him not to know how his old student the Gyuumao fights, and thus be able to recognise similar moves his daughter may have picked up.

Roshi says specifically that Chichi's fighting reminds him of his own kamesen-ryuu or Turtle Hermit Style of martial arts.

Maybe it's less that the fighting techniques themselves are recognizable and more that the Turtle-style training itself is evident within the fighting. Something that those familiar with can pick up on.

[Witty User Name]

Well, we are there, actually.
I mentioned it in the trivia section, on KBABZ's suggestion.

Cool. I did not notice the other thread.

[dougo13]

Episode 17 is where my Nippon Golden Network tapes begin from 1992. I'd go back and watch these again but there isn't the time. I should watch the boxes of subbed Henshin series from there as well, but (you guessed it), no more time. At least the DVDs are still available from Hawaii if I want them...