Unpopular DB opinions

[Zinnia]

Also, I don't get why people don't like the "canon VS noncanon" debates in DB. Like, it's simple.

Because DBS Anime is supposedly canon, but it references filler plotlines from Z (Ginyu Bulma for example, leading to his return in RoF) making this whole argument a mess.

I guess only the DBS Manga is true canon of this series because Toyotaro tries to be consistent

[MasenkoHA]

Also, I don't get why people don't like the "canon VS noncanon" debates in DB. Like, it's simple. None of the filler from DB or Z is canon, neither is GT, nor are the movies before Battle of Gods, nor is any additional shit introduced in the video games unless it was penned by Toriyama himself like Online had. People who don't understand this confuse me. And the people who try to stop people talking about those things really piss me off.

Because the whole concept of “this stuff that doesn’t directly come from the manga so it doesn’t count” is ridiculous? Well Gregory isn’t in the manga so his existence is non-canon? The stuff used to pad out episodes adapted from the manga aren’t actually happening. Apparently.

[Scsigs]

Also, I don't get why people don't like the "canon VS noncanon" debates in DB. Like, it's simple.

Because DBS Anime is supposedly canon, but it references filler plotlines from Z (Ginyu Bulma for example, leading to his return in RoF) making this whole argument a mess.

I guess only the DBS Manga is true canon of this series because Toyotaro tries to be consistent

Well, they reference past filler, but they never directly state it was canon (Ginyu Frog body witching with that Frieza Force dude didn't state he did that with Bulma & Yamcha being a pro Baseball player like in that one Z filler was never stated to have been canon even though Toriyama's stated he liked the idea). I take the Res. F movie's events more as canon than the TV show's anyways much like Battle of Gods, since they literally had to include shitty filler material to stretch out the movie plots to 3 times the movie lengths unnecessarily, mixed with the additional stuff before & after the plots of the arcs proper. That's like stating the Garlic Jr. arc was canon because GT, which is what was considered officially cannon before Super (which, GT can't be canon if Super's events are because Super directly contradicts a LOT of shit in GT) referenced the water that cured everyone in that arc by using it to cure everyone of Baby.

Because the whole concept of “this stuff that doesn’t directly come from the manga so it doesn’t count” is ridiculous? Well, Gregory isn’t in the manga so his existence is non-canon? The stuff used to pad out episodes adapted from the manga aren’t actually happening. Apparently.

No, Gregory was technically non-canon until Super randomly threw him in which, unless anyone has proof, probably wasn't in Toriyama's original outlines since he didn't come up with him & tends to disregard what he didn't come up with unless he's adapting it to reboot it into the official canon. Also, the stuff used to pad out episodes is directly non-canon if they weren't in the manga when it comes to DB & Z, yes. Filler episodes from those shows are also non-canon because they're just speculations or made-up shit that the Toei staff came up with so that they didn't have to adapt the next page of the manga. Unless anything's signed off by Toriyama, or penned by him, you cannot consider anything canon. Like, I like that they showed some of Gohan's year alone with Piccolo in the Saiyan Saga, but the events of the anime aren't actually what happened. I like the Otherworld Tournament filler, but there's no way it's canon.

Also, what about shit that directly contradicts stuff introduced later in the manga? Hell is 2 completely different things between the manga & Super, Z & the movies before Res. F & we are directly shown that in Super & Res. F with Frieza being in a specialized Hell just for him, which is why I hate they didn't take out the Hell filler in Kai: TFC. You just gonna say we're supposed to mash them together? Because we got that in Z's version of the Buu Saga with 2 conflicting ideologies that the Toei staff didn't give a single shit to try to rectify. And that's just 1 example.

Then, the Z movies from before BOG. Most of those, you cannot say they're officially canon because they have continuity problems the size of black holes with not only the manga, but the Z anime as well. Then, hoe do you rectify the first 3 Z Broly movies with the new Super one? The Z ones cannot be canon, not only for continuity problems with the manga either, but due to the fact that Super Broly's a complete fucking continuity reboot not only of Broly but also parts of Fusion Reborn & the Bardock special. If you wanna say these are alternate timelines where things happened to where they make sense that we're not privy to, that's fine, I got no problems with that. That's why I like & prefer Xenoverse's take on things where everything not in the manga or Super is directly said to be an alternate timeline. That makes sense to me & that's the only way to work through continuity problems that those bring up. I also have no problems with if later officially canon material adapts earlier noncanon concepts & does things with them, thus canonizing them. This is why I like Star Trek, Rick & Morty, & Ben 10 canonizing the concept of alternate timelines & universes & doing something with them at some point. It allows the writers so many creative opportunities to screw around with the characters.

And, here's the thing, I'm not saying you can't like any filler or the movies. I'm just saying don't take it as gospel just because you like it.

[ABED]

"officially canon" is redundantly redundant.

[Scsigs]

"officially canon" is redundantly redundant.

Just going off of that statement, it's clear you wanna derail the conversation & nitpick rather than actually wanna get what I mean. "Official," meaning what Toriyama comes up with or signs off on. "Canon" meaning what is considered in continuity & what's established as the history of the ongoing story & narrative. It's not a hard concept to grasp.

[ABED]

I have no interest in your conversation, but there was one thing I found interesting to comment on. Not every response to every comment has to be substantive. I don't give a damn about canon. I think it has become a concept that's misunderstood, misused, and not the least bit helpful in any discussion. You're right, it's not a difficult concept to grasp, but alas it often is, hence dumb words like headcanon.

Canon and things like it are given too much importance by geeks. I'm a geek, but why do we have to turn stuff into damn math problems? The value of the material doesn't lie in whether it's in continuity or not. I have gone through phases where I put undo importance on canon, but after a while, I went "Why do I care about this? So what if this all doesn't line up nice and neat?"

[MasenkoHA]

No, Gregory was technically non-canon until Super randomly threw him in which, unless anyone has proof, probably wasn't in Toriyama's original outlines since he didn't come up with him & tends to disregard what he didn't come up with unless he's adapting it to reboot it into the official canon.

I like how you can point out how stupid and arbitrary these rules are without realizing it.

“Gregory was non-canon because he was created exclusively for the anime but now he’s in the Super anime he is canon(?)”

Like, I like that they showed some of Gohan's year alone with Piccolo in the Saiyan Saga, but the events of the anime aren't actually what happened.

Sure they are. They actually happened in the Z anime which was a rebranding of the Dragon Ball anime and was then followed up in GT.

They didn’t happen in the manga or Kai but they did happen in the adaptation they existed in.

I like the Otherworld Tournament filler, but there's no way it's canon.

I mean not canon to current Dragon Ball material sure. Nothing about it contradicted the 1986-1997 anime run or the original manga run.

Also, what about shit that directly contradicts stuff introduced later in the manga? Hell is 2 completely different things between the manga & Super, Z & the movies before Res. F & we are directly shown that in Super & Res. F with Frieza being in a specialized Hell just for him, which is why I hate they didn't take out the Hell filler in Kai: TFC. You just gonna say we're supposed to mash them together? Because we got that in Z's version of the Buu Saga with 2 conflicting ideologies that the Toei staff didn't give a single shit to try to rectify. And that's just 1 example.

I mean I could (and I will) point out that for 20 years from the time the manga ended and Resurrected F was released nothing about Toei’s version of hell was contradicted.

To use my stock go to with the Halloween films just because the most recent Halloween film dropped everything after the 78 films and said Michael and Laurie aren’t siblings anymore (which why was stupid to begin with) doesn’t mean they’re not siblings in the previous sequels or that someone can’t watch the original 78 film without that retcon in mind.

Then, the Z movies from before BOG. Most of those, you cannot say they're officially canon because they have continuity problems the size of black holes with not only the manga, but the Z anime as well. Then, hoe do you rectify the first 3 Z Broly movies with the new Super one?

The Z movies are side stories that was made for Japanese kids to see during their summer/winter break without having to be bogged down by the current ongoing storylines. Most of them can’t happen (albeit movie 5 only has minor issues, movie 9 fits fine, and movie 13 fits fine). Even still the events of movie 1 happened in the tv series because the Garlic Jr follows up on it. And even though movie 3 can’t happen Gohan knows Hiya Dragon in the tv series.

I'm just saying don't take it as gospel just because you like it.

Nobody is taking as gospel. It’s just the whole concept of canon and non-canon in a series like Dragon Ball is just ridiculous.

[ABED]

There are good uses of continuity and there are bad uses. Letting the tail wag the dog and placing continuity above all else is a bad use of continuity. Recalling a previous event to create a more emotionally resonant moment is a good use of continuity.

So I guess I do want to derail that conversation as I think what is an isn't canon is pointless. At best it's a fun cataloguing exercise.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

"officially canon" is redundantly redundant.

Redundantly redundant would make a good 2004 garage band name.

[Kokonoe]

Kenji Yamamoto plagiarized tracks are better than the originals.

[MasenkoHA]

.
So I guess I do want to derail that conversation as I think what is an isn't canon is pointless. At best it's a fun cataloguing exercise.

Arguing how this movie or this special can or can’t fit or how this sequel series to series that ended 20 year ago ignores some parts as needed can be fun.

When we’re getting to point of saying “this specific scene from this otherwise plot important episode doesn’t count because it wasn’t in the comic book series the tv show is adapting” gets a bit silly.

Like imagine saying Rachel Dawes from the Nolan Bat films is non-canon because she didn’t exist in the comics so all her scenes don’t count or exist or whatever.

[ABED]

I also don't like the whole "maybe the films are in an alternate reality" argument.

[Scsigs]

I like how you can point out how stupid and arbitrary these rules are without realizing it.

“Gregory was non-canon because he was created exclusively for the anime but now he’s in the Super anime he is canon(?)”

I brought that up because I hate that Super did it. It's meant to be a sequel to the manga & it randomly including things from the Z anime that weren't in the manga that actually impact how the story played out. I realize Gregory is harmless in the grand scheme of things, but it's not a true sequel to the manga if it randomly keeps a few things introduced in the Z anime, but ignores everything else. Cherry-picking shit like that isn't good in cases like this.

Sure they are. They actually happened in the Z anime which was a rebranding of the Dragon Ball anime and was then followed up in GT.

They didn’t happen in the manga or Kai but they did happen in the adaptation they existed in.

I mean not canon to current Dragon Ball material sure. Nothing about it contradicted the 1986-1997 anime run or the original manga run.

That is literally the alternate universe/timeline/continuity argument.

Also, the Otherworld Tournament includes Hell, which is directly contradicted in the Buu Saga where the 2 different ideologies that represent Hell clash HARD. It's why I hate Kai: TFC keeping in the Hell filler. Piccolo directly states what the afterlife is like, even in the Z anime, but it's directly contradicted by the version of Hell from earlier & later in the series. See?

I mean I could (and I will) point out that for 20 years from the time the manga ended and Resurrected F was released nothing about Toei’s version of hell was contradicted.

Actually, how Piccolo describes the afterlife, like I said up top, does, yeah.

To use my stock go to with the Halloween films just because the most recent Halloween film dropped everything after the 78 films and said Michael and Laurie aren’t siblings anymore (which why was stupid to begin with) doesn’t mean they’re not siblings in the previous sequels or that someone can’t watch the original 78 film without that retcon in mind.

Alternate universe. To go with MY go-to, as stated in Star Trek TNG's classic last episode, 'All Good Things...', everything that can happen DOES happen in alternate realities, as the theory goes in quantum physics. But, we're talking about movies here & Halloween is not the first franchise to soft reboot itself by ignoring some sequels to make a new movie. Superman did that with Returns, which is technically supposed to be in continuity with the first 2 live action films from Richard Donner & completely ignore 3 & 4 to soft reboot the franchise. Star Trek '09 created an entirely new timeline so it could avoid all manner of prior continuity minus Enterprise to soft reboot the franchise with the TOS characters. And I'm sure there are a number of other franchises that could be mentioned here that do exactly the same thing.
But, again, this supports my "alternate reality" argument.

The Z movies are side stories that was made for Japanese kids to see during their summer/winter break without having to be bogged down by the current ongoing storylines. Most of them can’t happen (albeit movie 5 only has minor issues, movie 9 fits fine, and movie 13 fits fine). Even still the events of movie 1 happened in the tv series because the Garlic Jr follows up on it. And even though movie 3 can’t happen Gohan knows Hiya Dragon in the tv series.

Movie 1 has almost no continuity problems, only really when Goku & Gohan meet Goku's friends & Piccolo, since it's set before the Saiyan arc, so the show having a filler arc that acts as a sequel to it isn't that big of a deal. However, not a canon arc or movie. At best, it's an alternate reality. Hiya Dragon being the biggest argument as to why, since that's a character from the movies specifically & is the biggest discontinuity the arc has that the writers just threw in for no reason.
I don't know what bringing up this fact that they're not meant to be set in the main timeline is supposed to say, though, considering these just bolster my points.

Nobody is taking as gospel. It’s just the whole concept of canon and non-canon in a series like Dragon Ball is just ridiculous.

Not really. A lot of your confusion with this just seems to come from how many things have come out for pieces of DB media. There's mangas, TV shows, movies, games, etc. I don't blame anyone for being confused. And, your previous point actually leads to mine about the TV filler. The filler is literally there to pad out time & was specifically created to do so. The majority of the filler does not actually enhance the story as a result. Every scene in a serialized story should bolster the storytelling & pacing in some way, otherwise it's meaningless. Which is why I have no qualms bolstering Kai, warts & all, above the original Z. It has far less inconsistencies & stupidity with removing the majority of the filler, even though I feel a full-on anime reboot would be better for that, but meh. Toei's cheap.

This is why I don't mind the majority of Super's filler being in-between the longer story arcs. They're largely harmless & you can ignore them if you want. The good old Bleach approach, though they're still also entertaining most of the time & provide answers as to why some certain things might not happen, which is what good storytelling does to set in-universe limits, which is one of the best things I think the Super anime had going for it, with the writers setting up things in advance that Toriyama didn't bother to do in his outlines. But this is getting into the different types of filler here between Z & Super. One has filler that you can easily disregard because the base story wasn't meant to be told with it in mind, whereas the other was made with the filler in mind, allowing the writers to make some good/interesting decisions in places, which is why a lot of people actually don't mind the filler episodes in Super on top of most of them being slice-of-life.

Arguing how this movie or this special can or can’t fit or how this sequel series to series that ended 20 year ago ignores some parts as needed can be fun.

When we’re getting to point of saying “this specific scene from this otherwise plot important episode doesn’t count because it wasn’t in the comic book series the tv show is adapting” gets a bit silly.

Like imagine saying Rachel Dawes from the Nolan Bat films is non-canon because she didn’t exist in the comics so all her scenes don’t count or exist or whatever.

That is a different thing entirely. The Nolan Batman films loosely adapted the comics, taking the base traits of Batman, as well as characters & the setting of Gotham City, & specifically created their own continuity & universe separate from the comics. The DB animes adapting the manga are literally created to bring the events from the manga to life in a TV show as closely as possible. That's the point of a close anime adaptation over a loose movie adaptation. The MCU does this as well while also building a universe firmly established in its own continuity separate from the comics & pretty well, I might add.
Sometimes things get recursively adapted into their source materials if the writers want as well, like Harley Quinn being introduced into the DC Comics officially after being created first in the 90s Batman cartoon & there's no way they're supposed to be the same exact characters or universes, so...

I also don't like the whole "maybe the films are in an alternate reality" argument.

That is literally the only way most of the Z films can be explained & all 4 of the DB films are literally alternate reality films on the level of the majority of the One Piece films, particularly every film before Strong World, which IS canon because it was written by Oda himself & he's stated so, & every movie afterwards, though movie 12 was SUPPOSED to be canon before Oda realized it couldn't be because of decisions he made in the manga since he wrote the movie's script.
But, anyways, literally the only Z films that don't have continuity problems or huge inconsistencies are Bojack & Wrath of the Dragon. Every other film has some kind of continuity problem(s) or inconsistencies. Literally the only argument you can make is alternate realities because, otherwise, you're delusional if you think they can fit into the main timeline, sorry.

[MasenkoHA]

I brought that up because I hate that Super did it. It's meant to be a sequel to the manga & it randomly including things from the Z anime that weren't in the manga that actually impact how the story played out. I realize Gregory is harmless in the grand scheme of things, but it's not a true sequel to the manga if it randomly keeps a few things introduced in the Z anime, but ignores everything else. Cherry-picking shit like that isn't good in cases like this.

It’s almost like this whole “this is canon” “this is not” crap is pointless?

That is literally the alternate universe/timeline/continuity argument.

Dragon Ball Z is a animated tv adaptation of the latter half of Toriyama’s manga Dragon Ball. Scenes and episode created exclusively for the anime to pad out the episode length and allow the manga to stay ahead exist. They don’t exist in some alternate universe/timeline/continuity whatever they’re part of the show. Goku’s detour in hell is part of the same timeline where he’s fighting Vegeta.

Like when Harry Potter films makes up scenes that doesn’t make them non-canon they’re just scenes in the film that didn’t exist in the book.

Movie 1 has almost no continuity problems, only really when Goku & Gohan meet Goku's friends & Piccolo, since it's set before the Saiyan arc, so the show having a filler arc that acts as a sequel to it isn't that big of a deal

Considering the first arc in Z is very big on how Goku hasn’t seen his friends in 5 years and he and Piccolo don’t know about Gohan’s hidden powers the contradictions are pretty wide more so than anything in movie 5, 9, 13. That doesn’t mean movie 1 takes place in an alternate timeline it was just made with out Toei giving a shit about the semantics because they just wanted to do a 40-minute movie that wasn’t tied to the Saiyan training stuff and needed certain plot beats to happen.

That is literally the only way most of the Z films can be explained

Or they just like exist?

[ABED]

I'm with MasenkoHA on this. I think people place way too much importance on having everything line up or some way for it all to "count" as if watching it because you enjoy it isn't sufficient enough reason. I swear, I'm not pointing fingers or talking down to anyone. I haven't always held this opinion.

I saw a bunch of tweets and a few articles during the Crisis on Infinite Earths crossover that said something like "X is now canon to the Arrowverse. Do you know what this means?" My answers is 'nothing'. It doesn't mean a damn thing, at least nothing important. The movies and TV series that are now connected are still as good or bad and matter or don't as much now as they did when they weren't part of a multiverse.

Broly isn't a more or less interesting character because he's now canon, especially since the Broly in Super is not the same one from the first three films.

[In Brightest Day]

The Otherworld Tournament arc is incredibly easy to follow even for people who like power levels and is consistent with the Manga as long as you take everything at face value without second guessing Toei’s intentions in specific scenes.

[Scsigs]

The Otherworld Tournament arc is incredibly easy to follow even for people who like power levels and is consistent with the Manga as long as you take everything at face value without second guessing Toei’s intentions in specific scenes.

I mean, minus Toei's depiction of Hell before Toriyama firmly established it in the Buu Saga, of course.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

The Otherworld Tournament arc is incredibly easy to follow even for people who like power levels and is consistent with the Manga as long as you take everything at face value without second guessing Toei’s intentions in specific scenes.

I mean, minus Toei's depiction of Hell before Toriyama firmly established it in the Buu Saga, of course.

Here's an unpopular opinion; Toriyama contradicts earlier anime details on purpose to amuse himself. We know the guy was brought on to give his takes/opinions all the time. We know he even designed characters and pitched ideas. So why was something as simple as "what does Goku's house look like" never worked out?

Tenous and probably bordering on conspiratorial thinking but come on! That's totally his sense of humor.

[ABED]

I don't think it's something humorous at all. Artists change or even forget details of long running stories all the time.

[Scsigs]

Here's an unpopular opinion; Toriyama contradicts earlier anime details on purpose to amuse himself. We know the guy was brought on to give his takes/opinions all the time. We know he even designed characters and pitched ideas. So why was something as simple as "what does Goku's house look like" never worked out?

Tenuous and probably bordering on conspiratorial thinking but come on! That's totally his sense of humor

I mean, why would/should anime-only details not signed off or later incorporated by Toriyama be considered canonical? This is the problem with considering everything canon unless told specifically otherwise you get people coming up with hair-brained theories like this.

I don't think it's something humorous at all. Artists change or even forget details of long running stories all the time.

Especially Toriyama, who wrote by the seat of his pants all the time & procrastinated like a motherfucker.