SSGSS Evolution is a Disgustingly Bad, Ugly Transformation

[The Undying]

Fans were excited, no doubt about it, but I've found that most of the time these people are absolutely clueless with what makes Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball. Someone who understands Toriyama's story and has read it from the very beginning will most likely have a much broader perspective and see the flaws in these forms and how they just don't fit into the story.

100% agreed.

Dragon Ball (as in the source material, not any material outside of it) doesn't rely on transformations to inform story and characterization. That's not how Toriyama's transformations work.

Toriyama's transformations, especially when they're introduced for the first time, serve the narrative. They demonstrate the growth of its characters and emphasize important themes. They serve as milestones for progression. They have clearly defined roles. There isn't a single Super Saiyan form in OG Dragon Ball that doesn't adhere to that crucial philosophy, and for good reason: these are stories about characters, not stories about transformations.

We already know what products to expect from relying on 11th hour powerups over actual storytelling: GT, the Super anime, Heroes, nonsense video game "what-ifs" and a host of other bullshit cash-ins that don't understand anything about the source material they're trying to expand on. If people enjoy that sort of thing, they're entitled to do so, but I can live without it.

[Miracles]

That's why Toriyama does not bring TOEI's headcanon images into his authoritative movies written by him. I'm so glad he kept to his guns and kept Red and Blue special. These variations and stack-on's of Blue by the anime is overdress and depicts them as needy.

I too am glad the anime-only forms didn’t appear in Broly. I just wished Toriyama could have told Toei to not go ahead and introduce those forms in the first place... why can’t the anime be true to Toriyama’s vision and writing ways?
I hate it when they add such pointless, garbage fanservice to the story. Especially when said story is supposed to be Toriyama’s story, so when they decide to add their original stuff and deviate from the outline, it they should first ask themselves “but would Toriyama make this a thing?” and if the answer is no or maybe, then they shouldn’t make it.

Blue Kaioken is the only acceptable thing they did. It’s something Toriyama could have done, but then they ruined it when it had no drawbacks at all and went against Toriyama’s idea of Goku and Vegeta being equal.
I didn’t even mind Blue Kaioken, and I liked how after the U6 arc they came up with a big drawback. If it only appeared sporadically as a move, like when Goku used it against Zamasu, it would have been perfect.
But now I despise it because it lead to the creation of Blue Evolution.

Yep. Me personally, I didn't like KK Blue either. Goku already drains tons of stamina in Blue. Yet TOEI nonsensically thinks adding an established body killer is going to help? Kaioken on top of Blue didn't even coincide with the plot of trying to use Blue sparingly due to it's harsh power drain. Yet TOEI ignores such narrative because reasons.

[Aim]

As for Black, I don’t have problems with Black skipping straight to Rosé and it’s not a strange concept considering how powerful Black’s base form already was. Actually I bet Toei didn’t understand that Black was supposed to have the normal Super Saiyan too, or else there’s no way they wouldn’t have used it. Or maybe they thought it would have made no sense for Black, who was already stronger than SS2 Trunks, to have two forms on top of that power.

I have a feeling too they misunderstood Toriyama's notes, I also heard from somewhere years ago when it debuted that Toei had it confused, though I cannot find that source. Toriyama was very vague in his notes about Goku Black's forms, especially Rosé.

In Dragon Park Weekly they even stated; "A Goku Black version of Super Saiyan", even saying "It's strength is a match for SSGSS!". I personally believe they had it all mixed up, or they incorporated some weird logic into the series that Goku Black is a natural God in base therefor his version of regular Super Saiyan is Rosé. Either way, I just try to forget anime Super even happened, I just hope one day we get those scripts Toriyama wrote out so we could see how he envisioned it.

Actually it’s quite weird they won’t use Black’s SSJ form for Dokkan Battle or Legends. Maybe they don’t want to confuse fans by mixing up the anime with the manga.

I've found that for some reason they are very discriminating towards the manga, not even Completed SSGSS is in any of the games as far as I know. To me this just seems like arrogance on the companies part.

[SupremeKai25]

It's not a weird logic. Black is Zamasu, Zamasu had God ki by virtue of being a Kai, thus Black skips the normal Super Saiyans forms and goes straight to the Saiyan forms that use God ki. And since he's a Kai-Saiyan hybrid, he has Rosé.

[Aim]

It's not a weird logic. Black is Zamasu, Zamasu had God ki by virtue of being a Kai, thus Black skips the normal Super Saiyans forms and goes straight to the Saiyan forms that use God ki. And since he's a Kai-Saiyan hybrid, he has Rosé.

He didn't skip anything, Rosé is his Super Saiyan form, it's not his equivalent to SSGSS, in the manga maybe, but not in the anime. There have recently been huge debates about this until someone pulled out that Dragon Ball Park Shonen Jump thing.

[mute_proxy]

He didn't skip anything, Rosé is his Super Saiyan form, it's not his equivalent to SSGSS, in the manga maybe, but not in the anime. There have recently been huge debates about this until someone pulled out that Dragon Ball Park Shonen Jump thing.

What did they pull out of Dragon Ball Park Shonen Jump? I remember the sketches Toriyama did for Goku Black had ambiguous text indicating that he might have meant to have regular SS too. Using god ki with SS is what SSB is, and what SSRose is in Zamasu's case, regardless if he can't do it without god ki in the anime.

[SupremeKai25]

It's not a weird logic. Black is Zamasu, Zamasu had God ki by virtue of being a Kai, thus Black skips the normal Super Saiyans forms and goes straight to the Saiyan forms that use God ki. And since he's a Kai-Saiyan hybrid, he has Rosé.

He didn't skip anything, Rosé is his Super Saiyan form, it's not his equivalent to SSGSS, in the manga maybe, but not in the anime. There have recently been huge debates about this until someone pulled out that Dragon Ball Park Shonen Jump thing.

He skipped the Saiyan forms that don't use God ki.

[sunsetshimmer]

Yeah it sucks. What more can i say. All forms in DBS sucked ass (except for SSJ God), but this one is abomination and a proof that DB fans have no standards. You see, if they put such thing in series and people don't complain, then what's the reason to ever come with something fresh? DBS has proven that people will buy any bullshit they will come with, even if its recolored old villain or lame pink haired "evil Goku" concept existing in fanfics and even fanmade games for many years.

SSGSS Evolution was a test. If fans could accept blue haired recolor of SSJ, then perhaps they will accept minimal tone change of that recolor, as long as it gives Vegeta some power so his fans won't complain that much about Goku getting UI.

[Kataphrut]

That's why Toriyama does not bring TOEI's headcanon images into his authoritative movies written by him. I'm so glad he kept to his guns and kept Red and Blue special. These variations and stack-on's of Blue by the anime is overdress and depicts them as needy.

I too am glad the anime-only forms didn’t appear in Broly. I just wished Toriyama could have told Toei to not go ahead and introduce those forms in the first place... why can’t the anime be true to Toriyama’s vision and writing ways?
I hate it when they add such pointless, garbage fanservice to the story. Especially when said story is supposed to be Toriyama’s story, so when they decide to add their original stuff and deviate from the outline, it they should first ask themselves “but would Toriyama make this a thing?” and if the answer is no or maybe, then they shouldn’t make it.

Blue Kaioken is the only acceptable thing they did. It’s something Toriyama could have done, but then they ruined it when it had no drawbacks at all and went against Toriyama’s idea of Goku and Vegeta being equal.
I didn’t even mind Blue Kaioken, and I liked how after the U6 arc they came up with a big drawback. If it only appeared sporadically as a move, like when Goku used it against Zamasu, it would have been perfect.
But now I despise it because it lead to the creation of Blue Evolution.

Yep. Me personally, I didn't like KK Blue either. Goku already drains tons of stamina in Blue. Yet TOEI nonsensically thinks adding an established body killer is going to help? Kaioken on top of Blue didn't even coincide with the plot of trying to use Blue sparingly due to it's harsh power drain. Yet TOEI ignores such narrative because reasons.

The thing about Kaoiken Blue is it was the first time we got any hint of how Blue was different to the previous forms with its perfect ki control thing. Before that, all we knew was that it was more efficient than Golden Freeza in Toriyama's movie, so revealing that and saying he could therefore stack it with Kaioken made sense. The idea that Blue was actually super draining was introduced in the manga, and has been inconsistently presented ever since. Frankly, I wish Toyotaro hadn't done that- all his take on it did was make it even more of a recolour of the original Super Saiyan by giving it the exact same chart of progression as the Cell saga.

One of the few things Toriyama said about Blue was that it was intended to be "calm." Hence the first transformation in Res F, where it was just quick kiai and a crackle of energy and that was that. Again that was a nice idea that got ruined with Evolution, Mastered SSB and the Broly movie treating it like another screamy power up. I give Kaioken Blue the pass because that's stacking it with an original screamy powerup.

[Aim]

Using god ki with SS is what SSB is, and what SSRose is in Zamasu's case, regardless if he can't do it without god ki in the anime.

No, using Super Saiyan God with Super Saiyan is SSGSS. To go against what an official source says is ignorant, no matter how much it makes sense.

https://web.archive.org/web/20171028145 ... 9223_o.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DmrHBQdX0AM ... ame=medium

He skipped the Saiyan forms that don't use God ki.

There's no indication that was the case, what you're saying is head canon.

Yeah it sucks. What more can i say. All forms in DBS sucked ass (except for SSJ God), but this one is abomination and a proof that DB fans have no standards. You see, if they put such thing in series and people don't complain, then what's the reason to ever come with something fresh? DBS has proven that people will buy any bullshit they will come with, even if its recolored old villain or lame pink haired "evil Goku" concept existing in fanfics and even fanmade games for many years.

SSGSS Evolution was a test. If fans could accept blue haired recolor of SSJ, then perhaps they will accept minimal tone change of that recolor, as long as it gives Vegeta some power so his fans won't complain that much about Goku getting UI.

I think those forms were fine, SSGSS, Golden Frieza, it was just the execution, Toriyama's ideas can be pulled off if done right. When he's not in charge of something, it seems to fall apart.

Goku Black was far from fan fiction in my mind, I thought it was cool to have the actual Goku who's 'identity' is a mystery be the 'villain'. Not to mention his unique rose colored form was very cool in my opinion and was a Toriyama thing to do.

SSGSS Evolution is a monster, in a bad way, and so is God Of Destruction Toppo. SSGSS Kaioken wasn't that great in my opinion, but it's the closest thing to decent Toei did.

[SupremeKai25]

Using god ki with SS is what SSB is, and what SSRose is in Zamasu's case, regardless if he can't do it without god ki in the anime.

No, using Super Saiyan God with Super Saiyan is SSGSS. To go against what an official source says is ignorant, no matter how much it makes sense.

https://web.archive.org/web/20171028145 ... 9223_o.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DmrHBQdX0AM ... ame=medium

He skipped the Saiyan forms that don't use God ki.

There's no indication that was the case, what you're saying is head canon.

The indication is that he did not go SSJ1, 2, or 3.

Rosé is his version of Super Saiyan because it's his first transformation, his immediate power-up from the base form, like the Super Saiyan 1 for mortals. That doesn't change the fact that it's a Saiyan transformation based on God ki, like God and Blue.

[mute_proxy]

No, using Super Saiyan God with Super Saiyan is SSGSS. To go against what an official source says is ignorant, no matter how much it makes sense.

https://web.archive.org/web/20171028145 ... 9223_o.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DmrHBQdX0AM ... ame=medium

Ignoring common sense that SSG consists of god ki, ignoring the whole process of how they achieved SSGSS without a hint of SSG, with Vegeta's exclamation "so this is god ki" with flashes of blue ki in the air, ignoring all of the available sources in favor of a single source, that's probably Goku's speech to Freeza in the second movie, is ignorant.

Considering Rose, there have also been multiple official sources, that have concluded that SSRose is equivalent to SSGSS, what you posted was probably the first instance that was based on very little information available at the moment.

[Aim]

Rosé is his version of Super Saiyan because it's his first transformation, his immediate power-up from the base form, like the Super Saiyan 1 for mortals. That doesn't change the fact that it's a Saiyan transformation based on God ki, like God and Blue.

He didn't really skip anything then.

Ignoring common sense that SSG consists of god ki, ignoring the whole process of how they achieved SSGSS without a hint of SSG, with Vegeta's exclamation "so this is god ki" with flashes of blue ki in the air, ignoring all of the available sources in favor of a single source, that's probably Goku's speech to Freeza in the second movie, is ignorant.

Considering Rose, there have also been multiple official sources, that have concluded that SSRose is equivalent to SSGSS, what you posted was probably the first instance that was based on very little information available at the moment.

State your sources.

I'm talking about Super, not the movies. There was once a stage where we thought that the Saiyan's couldn't go Super Saiyan God because of Saiyan Beyond God, which turned out to be false.

So you're assuming that just because Vegeta wasn't in God form at the time of the blue aura scene, that it had nothing to do with Super Saiyan God? How you listening to yourself right now? SSGSS, what does it stand for? Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, now tell me, how can it just be 'God ki' with Super Saiyan if it's been stated IN Super to be Super Saiyan God gone Super Saiyan? You're doing what you're accusing me of doing, pulling from sources to fit your point, we are talking about Super, not the movies. Taking specific scenes and trying to explain your logic like "Vegeta wasn't in SSJG in the process of achieving SSGSS" is true ignorance and shows you either are disregarding what Goku stated in the next arc from when that scene took place to fit your head canon or you just weren't listening.

[SupremeKai25]

Rosé is his version of Super Saiyan because it's his first transformation, his immediate power-up from the base form, like the Super Saiyan 1 for mortals. That doesn't change the fact that it's a Saiyan transformation based on God ki, like God and Blue.

He didn't really skip anything then.

Aside from the 3+ Saiyan forms that don't use God ki, no, he didn't skip anything.

[mute_proxy]

State your sources.

I'm talking about Super, not the movies. There was once a stage where we thought that the Saiyan's couldn't go Super Saiyan God because of Saiyan Beyond God, which turned out to be false.

So you're assuming that just because Vegeta wasn't in God form at the time of the blue aura scene, that it had nothing to do with Super Saiyan God? How you listening to yourself right now? SSGSS, what does it stand for? Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, now tell me, how can it just be 'God ki' with Super Saiyan if it's been stated IN Super to be Super Saiyan God gone Super Saiyan? You're doing what you're accusing me of doing, pulling from sources to fit your point, we are talking about Super, not the movies. Taking specific scenes and trying to explain your logic like "Vegeta wasn't in SSJG in the process of achieving SSGSS" is true ignorance and shows you either are disregarding what Goku stated in the next arc from when that scene took place to fit your head canon or you just weren't listening.

Nothing indicates that Super Saiyan Blue is a literal combination of Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan God. In the original japanese dialogue Goku describes it as a Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, which is worded vague enough that he is meaning a Super Saiyan form giving them access to the power of Super Saiyan God (which is god ki), and not a literal combination of the two.

Spoiler:

Likewise, Toriyama's notes had it that Black could transform into both Super Saiyan and Rose, and it was Toei that, either intentionally or accidentally, only had him go Rose.

Here's a source for Rose, by one of the most reliable DB translators: https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/810186407813619712

[Grimlock]

I've found that for some reason they are very discriminating towards the manga, not even Completed SSGSS is in any of the games as far as I know. To me this just seems like arrogance on the companies part.

It isn't arrogance or discriminating anything. Video-games are very well known to adapt/favor the anime version instead of the manga, and this goes for all franchises, as far as I'm concerned.

now tell me, how can it just be 'God ki' with Super Saiyan if it's been stated IN Super to be Super Saiyan God gone Super Saiyan?

Just to take that away, I'm using the movies.

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is, like I said in my previous comment, the power of Super Saiyan God being used with the Super Saiyan transformation. Both Goku and Toriyama say it so. That's why Goku (and Vegeta) absorbed it, to use it later on. It's not literally Super Saiyan God going Super Saiyan because as far as know, one can't use two transformations at the same time. If it was stated as such in Dragon Ball Super, they most certainly mean its power, not the form itself.

If Toyotaro and his manga continuity is a valid source for you, Super Saiyan Rosé is an equivalent to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. The latter is when a Saiyan uses the power of god (obtained and retained through Super Saiyan God) and uses it with the Super Saiyan form. The former is when a god uses its own god power (?) and uses it with Super Saiyan.



In Toei's version we didn't see Goku Black even transforming into Super Saiyan, but that obviously doesn't mean anything. He has it, but didn't use it in its regular state. It's not his version of Super Saiyan because Super Saiyan doesn't even have an aura like that in the first place.

[The Undying]

Can anyone who kept their facts in check during all those years explain it to this guy? I know I shouldn't've gone into it unprepared

There's nothing to explain. He's not necessarily wrong.

"Super Saiyan with god ki" is never a description used verbatim in the series or any promotional material. Thus far, we have:

• "a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan" - Goku in the movie and TV anime

• "a mere power-up from Super Saiyan God" - Beerus in the manga

• "the form Goku acquired after turning Super Saiyan while in Super Saiyan God form" - Dragon Ball Fusions

As Herms' fact checker thread notes, the movie and Super anime have identical quotes.

You can fret over what all that means, but it's important to be mindful of the exact phrasing used when discussing specific terminology like this.

[Matches Malone]

• "a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan" - Goku in the movie and TV anime

This never made sense to me. isn't a super saiyan god by definition a super saiyan with the power of a god ? it would've been so much more easier to just call it super saiyan god 2 or some other convenient name.

[SSJgogeto]

I think that SS God is just a saiyan with the power of gods, or godly/divine ki. And "Super Saiyan with god ki" should be this:



Also, I like Blue Evolution.

[Whis]

I don't think it looks ugly at all. It's a cool homage to Vegeta's ssj grade 2 form and I think he could utilize that again but with the combinition of god ki. What's interesting is that's he's not using it casually like ssb but it's more like a Mario power up when the writing calls for it which makes it special imo.