SSGSS Evolution is a Disgustingly Bad, Ugly Transformation

[Grimlock]

The point that is being missed here is that SSGod (...) are all steps of Super Saiyan.

There's nothing actually connecting Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan God (well except for the name, which just like Super Saiyan 4, I'm pretty sure it was named out of convenience). Super Saiyan God gives birth to a new branch of forms, one that does use Super Saiyan as their "base", but not Super Saiyan God itself.

The Saiyan who transformed into Super Saiyan God back in planet Vegeta most certainly didn't even have Super Saiyan.

[Hugo Boss]

The point that is being missed here is that SSGod (...) are all steps of Super Saiyan.

There's nothing actually connecting Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan God (well except for the name, which just like Super Saiyan 4, I'm pretty sure it was named out of convenience). Super Saiyan God gives birth to a new branch of forms, one that does use Super Saiyan as their "base", but not Super Saiyan God itself.

The Saiyan who transformed into Super Saiyan God back in planet Vegeta most certainly didn't even have Super Saiyan.

SSGod is a step between SS3 and SSGSS in the transformation line.

Considering how Vegeta access that step, the ritual isn't required and functions as a shortcut.

[Miracles]

No, that's another idea I strongly disagree with. Having Fused Zamasu be weak enough that Goku and Vegeta could handle him with Blue would just be a repeat of Resurrection F and its lack of tension. I don't know why Toriyama was on a run of "Goku and Vegeta are invincible and nothing can threaten them except their own idiocy" plots, but it's been the worst aspect of modern Dragon Ball storytelling. I appreciate that Black and Zamasu were credible threats during that arc, and while Vegetto ultimately didn't add much, I liked that Zamasu was able to match him. It added a new dimension to his character seeing him have to work for it rather than just being in control and dominant like against Buu.

Having the Broly film keep it simple was a good idea though, but that's more due to the need for tighter pacing in a movie. The issue might have been avoided if God hadn't been brought back; as cool as the form is, it's awkward to implement into the story since it's between SS and Blue in strength. Ironically, it ends up making Blue look worse since God is what they use when they're in control, while Blue is what they use when they're struggling- see the Broly and Kefla fights for examples of that.

Well god form never left. As we see Goku transform back into red, breaking the energy blast from Beerus at the end of Toriyama's BoG. Blue is nothing more than a power up from that Red mode. It's what they use when they need more power. This is why it's no stretch when Toriyama wanted a fusion fighting his Blue form. It doesn't necessarily show how weak Zamasu is, again, how incredibly strong Blue is on it's own.

Toriyama was also keeping it's theme of Goku and Vegeta refusing to merge again canonical. Which was showcased in the Buu arc. This is a story about Goku's individual development. Using the plot of Zamasu's "patora time limit" also helps show the strategy side to our heroes. It adds another dimension to the plot. So Toriyama is thinking about the story, the development of his protagonist and fusing doesn't really add to that other than the cool factor.

A theme he immediately ditched for Broly, I might add. And yes, God showed up briefly after running out in BoG and it's not a stretch to assume it was still accessible, but it was noticeably absent in Res F, and most of Super before coming back later in the manga, and then in the ToP and Broly. By then SS had been brought back into the fold (I seem to recall the plan was to ditch that entirely from Res F onward) and Ultra Instinct was on the way, so we didn't really need more forms.

Zamasu's Potara fusion having a limit is a straight up plot hole, and again, his fused form shouldn't be weaker than Goku or Vegeta individually since Goku Black and Zamasu were threatening them as a duo via their power and immortality respectively. I don't agree with the decision to make them weak in the manga (same with Hit), since a story needs to have tension. Downplaying the villain to make it about the heroes' hubris failed in Res F, and Jiren, Broly and Moro have since shown it's better when the antagonist can be threatening on their own.

In Toriyama's narration, villains able to handle a Blue level Goku/Vegeta shows strength not weakness. For the simple fact that Toriyama holds the god forms in the highest regards. He is the one upholding it's divinity, making it separate from just other worldly powers like SSJ. Fusing against Zamasu takes away from that since it doesn't develop our characters individual power and character but detracts from the intrigue of their sworn rivalry and isolated heightened growth.

The Potara time limit is a simple add on narrative to the items plot. Nothing contradicts it. Vegetto still split apart in the Buu saga despite what Old Kai stated about it being inseparable. Using Fusion often takes away from it's actual last resort/trump card mantra for our heroes. It really is suppose to be bottom dollar, Toriyama doesn't spam it like cheap candy. Toriyama using fusion for Broly was an absolute necessity as it was there to maintain Broly's already legendary hype. Toriyama is more concerned about maintaining DB's plot while others want to spam gimmicky fanservice.

[Grimlock]

SSGod is a step between SS3 and SSGSS in the transformation line.

Considering how Vegeta access that step, the ritual isn't required and functions as a shortcut.

Don't know what it says, but I'm gonna assume it's power level stuff, which obviously Super Saiyan God is a step between Super Saiyan 3 and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. Not that you need Super Saiyan 3 to achieve Super Saiyan God. Since I consider the movies, it is implied Vegeta went through the ritual.

[Hugo Boss]

SSGod is a step between SS3 and SSGSS in the transformation line.

Considering how Vegeta access that step, the ritual isn't required and functions as a shortcut.

Don't know what it says, but I'm gonna assume it's power level stuff, which obviously Super Saiyan God is a step between Super Saiyan 3 and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. Not that you need Super Saiyan 3 to achieve Super Saiyan God. Since I consider the movies, it is implied Vegeta went through the ritual.

I’m not implying you need to access all the steps to reach a higher one, just that all of them belong to the same evolution line, which doesn’t include Ultra Instinct, if you want to be pedantic about it.

[Grimlock]

I’m not implying you need to access all the steps to reach a higher one, just that all of them belong to the same evolution line

You may want to elaborate more on that because your latter sentence contradicts the former. If they belong to the same evolution line, then you do need to have access to previous forms to get the next ones.

[Hugo Boss]

I’m not implying you need to access all the steps to reach a higher one, just that all of them belong to the same evolution line

You may want to elaborate more on that because your latter sentence contradicts the former. If they belong to the same evolution line, then you do need to have access to previous forms to get the next ones.

Not necessarily. For example, Gotenks skips SS2 when he goes SS3. It doesn’t take away the fact that SS2 is a step between SS1 and SS3. The same thing happens with Gogeta, who skips several steps between SS1 and SSGSS.

[Kataphrut]

Well god form never left. As we see Goku transform back into red, breaking the energy blast from Beerus at the end of Toriyama's BoG. Blue is nothing more than a power up from that Red mode. It's what they use when they need more power. This is why it's no stretch when Toriyama wanted a fusion fighting his Blue form. It doesn't necessarily show how weak Zamasu is, again, how incredibly strong Blue is on it's own.

Toriyama was also keeping it's theme of Goku and Vegeta refusing to merge again canonical. Which was showcased in the Buu arc. This is a story about Goku's individual development. Using the plot of Zamasu's "patora time limit" also helps show the strategy side to our heroes. It adds another dimension to the plot. So Toriyama is thinking about the story, the development of his protagonist and fusing doesn't really add to that other than the cool factor.

A theme he immediately ditched for Broly, I might add. And yes, God showed up briefly after running out in BoG and it's not a stretch to assume it was still accessible, but it was noticeably absent in Res F, and most of Super before coming back later in the manga, and then in the ToP and Broly. By then SS had been brought back into the fold (I seem to recall the plan was to ditch that entirely from Res F onward) and Ultra Instinct was on the way, so we didn't really need more forms.

Zamasu's Potara fusion having a limit is a straight up plot hole, and again, his fused form shouldn't be weaker than Goku or Vegeta individually since Goku Black and Zamasu were threatening them as a duo via their power and immortality respectively. I don't agree with the decision to make them weak in the manga (same with Hit), since a story needs to have tension. Downplaying the villain to make it about the heroes' hubris failed in Res F, and Jiren, Broly and Moro have since shown it's better when the antagonist can be threatening on their own.

In Toriyama's narration, villains able to handle a Blue level Goku/Vegeta shows strength not weakness. For the simple fact that Toriyama holds the god forms in the highest regards. He is the one upholding it's divinity, making it separate from just other worldly powers like SSJ. Fusing against Zamasu takes away from that since it doesn't develop our characters individual power and character but detracts from the intrigue of their sworn rivalry and isolated heightened growth.

The Potara time limit is a simple add on narrative to the items plot. Nothing contradicts it. Vegetto still split apart in the Buu saga despite what Old Kai stated about it being inseparable. Using Fusion often takes away from it's actual last resort/trump card mantra for our heroes. It really is suppose to be bottom dollar, Toriyama doesn't spam it like cheap candy. Toriyama using fusion for Broly was an absolute necessity as it was there to maintain Broly's already legendary hype. Toriyama is more concerned about maintaining DB's plot while others want to spam gimmicky fanservice.

So Zamasu, an actual god using Goku's stolen god power shouldn't be able to rival God ki, but it's alright when Freeza, Jiren and Broly do it? You're just contradicting yourself. Toriyama cares about maintaining plot while others want to "spam gimmicky fanservice" but he's still got to throw that all out the window for Broly because of his "legendary hype"? Kind of says it all how much he actually cares about this stuff doesn't it?

And for the record, I don't have a problem with that. At this point its ingrained into Dragon Ball that the new legendary, unbeatable powerup will never stay at the top for long.

I'm not saying the potara retcon as a whole is a plothole. I'm saying Zamasu defusing in the manga is, because as a Supreme Kai who can use the potara to time travel, he shouldn't be affected by that limit.

[Aim]

Alright, believe what you want. Not just me but others posted evidences in and out-universe of people saying exactly what Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is. If you want to ignore everything for reasons then be my guest. It's no use to keep this any further.

I was never denying what it was, I was saying how it still technically is in a way 'combining' two forms together in a sense.
It was never fully explained what "Power of Super Saiyan God" is, that's like saying you can combine the power of Super Saiyan 2 with Super Saiyan 3, it doesn't make sense. The power of another form can easily be perceived as basically using that form.

You're right, it is time to end this discussion. If you want to ignore everything I've said, claim I'm not understanding because I'm simply stating what it can be perceived as, then there's no point in arguing.

It isn't "good enough argument", yet you managed to prove my point. Thanks.

If it makes you sleep better at night, sure.

[Miracles]

A theme he immediately ditched for Broly, I might add. And yes, God showed up briefly after running out in BoG and it's not a stretch to assume it was still accessible, but it was noticeably absent in Res F, and most of Super before coming back later in the manga, and then in the ToP and Broly. By then SS had been brought back into the fold (I seem to recall the plan was to ditch that entirely from Res F onward) and Ultra Instinct was on the way, so we didn't really need more forms.

Zamasu's Potara fusion having a limit is a straight up plot hole, and again, his fused form shouldn't be weaker than Goku or Vegeta individually since Goku Black and Zamasu were threatening them as a duo via their power and immortality respectively. I don't agree with the decision to make them weak in the manga (same with Hit), since a story needs to have tension. Downplaying the villain to make it about the heroes' hubris failed in Res F, and Jiren, Broly and Moro have since shown it's better when the antagonist can be threatening on their own.

In Toriyama's narration, villains able to handle a Blue level Goku/Vegeta shows strength not weakness. For the simple fact that Toriyama holds the god forms in the highest regards. He is the one upholding it's divinity, making it separate from just other worldly powers like SSJ. Fusing against Zamasu takes away from that since it doesn't develop our characters individual power and character but detracts from the intrigue of their sworn rivalry and isolated heightened growth.

The Potara time limit is a simple add on narrative to the items plot. Nothing contradicts it. Vegetto still split apart in the Buu saga despite what Old Kai stated about it being inseparable. Using Fusion often takes away from it's actual last resort/trump card mantra for our heroes. It really is suppose to be bottom dollar, Toriyama doesn't spam it like cheap candy. Toriyama using fusion for Broly was an absolute necessity as it was there to maintain Broly's already legendary hype. Toriyama is more concerned about maintaining DB's plot while others want to spam gimmicky fanservice.

So Zamasu, an actual god using Goku's stolen god power shouldn't be able to rival God ki, but it's alright when Freeza, Jiren and Broly do it? You're just contradicting yourself. Toriyama cares about maintaining plot while others want to "spam gimmicky fanservice" but he's still got to throw that all out the window for Broly because of his "legendary hype"? Kind of says it all how much he actually cares about this stuff doesn't it?

And for the record, I don't have a problem with that. At this point its ingrained into Dragon Ball that the new legendary, unbeatable powerup will never stay at the top for long.

I'm not saying the potara retcon as a whole is a plothole. I'm saying Zamasu defusing in the manga is, because as a Supreme Kai who can use the potara to time travel, he shouldn't be affected by that limit.

I don't remember Zamas defusing in the manga. IIRC he multiplied into many merged Zamas's. So I don't see how that's a plot hole. Also, Zamas and Black were weaker than Goku in Toriyama's outline. Since Goku had a showdown against merged Zamas towards the finale anyways. It's not the same with RoF Freeza, Jiren and Broly, who were actually written to be stronger than Blue Goku.

Also, I didn't contradict myself on Toriyama using fusion against Broly for his legendary hype.That's only part of it. However, I stated why he uses fusion against opponents as an absolute last resort. Keeping that "Trump card" as it's suppose to be, a special Ace in the hole. Unlike TOEI and Toyotaro, who meaninglessly spams Vegetto for cool effect, only to have Goku take on merged Zamas anyway.

Toriyama doesn't spam it for just fanservice, which adds nothing to the story. Fusion against the mighty Broly actually developed Goku's character, a sense of new found pride was ignited as a Saiyan. Due to Broly's strength, Goku finally acknowledges his Saiyan name, Kakarot. Since Broly is possibly stronger than Beerus, who is a god, as a mere Saiyan!. Broly's already hyped status was only part of the story line. However, Toriyama used it and made it useful to the narrative to develop our protagonist.

[The Undying]

long post

Not working with the story? Undercutting the main theme? "Barely noticeable"?

Bro, the entire thesis of the Boo arc was cooperation and "passing the torch"! That's what Super Saiyan 3 encapsulates: it was introduced as Goku's form, it caused the protagonists problems they had to work around, and it failed spectacularly every time it was used. Super Saiyan 3 justifies the "why?" part of passing said torch; it justifies why Goku isn't an end-all-be-all hero. This isn't just subversion for subversion's sake, this is a subversion that played into the central theme of the arc and developed one of the biggest character dynamics in the series. It did all of that while also contributing to the progression of the story.

Also, what Goku said about being able to take out Boo doesn't change what happened. Coulda shoulda woulda, and all that jazz. His point was mainly to emphasize his own desire for the arc's thesis.

I'm more than happy to take this conversation to PM, because whether it personally tickles your fancy isn't exactly what we were discussing. I was comparing Toriyama's forms to Toei's forms, and my point was that - regardless of however substantive you thought it was - there's something (actually, a lot of things) brought to the table here narratively and characteristically. I could say more than a few things about your interpretation of the Freeza arc as well, but this isn't really the place for it.

I don't want to derail the topic any further than I already have, so I'll just leave it at that.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

See, I always seen the argument of that because Super Saiyan 3 subverts expectations, it works in the story. And my response has always been the same: subverting expectations does not actually make the story better or more interesting.

Put this on my tombstone. If swerves were what made a story better M Night Shamylan would be the greatest filmmaker alive and Vince Russo would have saved WCW. Reveals are like anything else in a story. Done well they're exciting. Done poorly they're annoying and cheap.

And the whole "The humans need the learn to fight for themselves" message is horribly shoehorned in when you take into consideration that either Gotenks or Gohan could have brought to Kaioshin's planet to fighting and easily Kid Boo. And how their inclusion in the final battle would have better served the main narrative theme a good chunk of the Majin Boo arc had revolved around: the new generation fighting their own battles. I mean, don't you think getting another crack at the whip against Majin Boo could have served as a great avenue for the character development Gotenks desperately needed and the personal resolution Gohan seemingly never got?

Easily the most frustrating part of that arc. It consistently tries to present a theme that it then seems to go out of its way to undermine. You had three "Earthborn" who could have helped defeat Majin Buu but each one failed worse than the last. It's why I find it so strange whenever people say Dragon Ball is about people coming into their own. No. Dragon Ball is about how much everyone who isn't Goku sucks and how the world should be grateful he's around because otherwise everything would be fucked. Humanity is so inept that two aliens have to do everything for it.

[The Undying]

Also, Hugo Boss is correct. The Tournament of Power anime guide he posted isn't the only thing that considers all of these forms a part of the same evolutionary branch; V Jump's Super Saiyan guide and the Super manga corroborate the same thing.

It also aligns with other material calling Blue a Super Saiyan of a Super Saiyan God, as similar phrasing was used to describe Super Saiyan 2 in the Boo arc. Everything is essentially a Super Saiyan beyond some other Super Saiyan. In true Toriyama fashion, this is all very simple and more straightforward than people seemingly want it to be.

[Dbzk1999]

I don't remember Zamas defusing in the manga. IIRC he multiplied into many merged Zamas's. So I don't see how that's a plot hole.

He multiplied because Trunks sliced him in half, as he was defusing. Before that, it was noted that Zamasu was gonna defuse after an hour had passed by Gowasu

[Aim]

The point that is being missed here is that SSGod, SSGSS, SSRosé and SSGSS Evolution are all steps of Super Saiyan. See SSRosé is not supposed to be SS1, but it is a version of Super Saiyan that matches SSGSS. I hope this helps to clear any confusion.

Totally agree with you.

[Kataphrut]

I don't remember Zamas defusing in the manga. IIRC he multiplied into many merged Zamas's. So I don't see how that's a plot hole. Also, Zamas and Black were weaker than Goku in Toriyama's outline. Since Goku had a showdown against merged Zamas towards the finale anyways. It's not the same with RoF Freeza, Jiren and Broly, who were actually written to be stronger than Blue Goku.

Also, I didn't contradict myself on Toriyama using fusion against Broly for his legendary hype.That's only part of it. However, I stated why he uses fusion against opponents as an absolute last resort. Keeping that "Trump card" as it's suppose to be, a special Ace in the hole. Unlike TOEI and Toyotaro, who meaninglessly spams Vegetto for cool effect, only to have Goku take on merged Zamas anyway.

Toriyama doesn't spam it for just fanservice, which adds nothing to the story. Fusion against the mighty Broly actually developed Goku's character, a sense of new found pride was ignited as a Saiyan. Due to Broly's strength, Goku finally acknowledges his Saiyan name, Kakarot. Since Broly is possibly stronger than Beerus, who is a god, as a mere Saiyan!. Broly's already hyped status was only part of the story line. However, Toriyama used it and made it useful to the narrative to develop our protagonist.

He was about to, they still gave him the limit. And again, the bold is the main issue I keep coming back to. The antagonists shouldn't be weaker or non-threatening to Goku and Vegeta, because why should we care otherwise? It's the Resurrection F problem, and I'm glad the show didn't go that route.

Using Vegetto against Zamasu was still treated as a last resort, and it makes sense that they would break their no fusing rule against someone else who'd fused- remember, that was the justification they used with Buu. And it also makes sense that the two fusions would be roughly equal, since they were roughly equal unfused as well (with Black and Zamasu having the advantage, which again, they should have because they're the bad guys). At the end of the day, the story was about Trunks and he was the one who got the win. Having Vegetto there simply helped cement Zamasu's strength and the threat he posed. If Toyotaro wanted to throw Vegetto in as well for a meaningless squash match, that's his problem. I couldn't care less about his version.

You've also touched on an issue I have with the Broly movie that's unrelated, which is all of the development you've inferred wasn't addressed in the movie itself. We just see Goku turn up at the end saying Kakarot and act like it means something (other than "hey guys, remember that's what old Broly used to say"). And the scene of Goku convincing Vegeta to fuse also bugged me, because by that point we've seen the two of them "put aside their differences to work together" so many times now. It's not new any more, they've been doing it since Buu. Goku even uses the exact same argument to convince Vegeta, pulling the old "My Bulma" card. Which is is also overdone and indicative of why modern Vegeta is such a stale character, if we want to get back to the original point of this topic.

[Dbzfan94]

You've also touched on an issue I have with the Broly movie that's unrelated, which is all of the development you've inferred wasn't addressed in the movie itself. We just see Goku turn up at the end saying Kakarot and act like it means something (other than "hey guys, remember that's what old Broly used to say"). And the scene of Goku convincing Vegeta to fuse also bugged me, because by that point we've seen the two of them "put aside their differences to work together" so many times now. It's not new any more, they've been doing it since Buu. Goku even uses the exact same argument to convince Vegeta, pulling the old "My Bulma" card. Which is is also overdone and indicative of why modern Vegeta is such a stale character, if we want to get back to the original point of this topic.

This right here is one of my biggest problems with modern Dragon Ball as a whole. They keep repeating the same "development" moment for Vegeta over and over again, with diminishing returns. They can't do anything new with him so they just have him redoing his development from the Buu saga.

[Miracles]

I don't remember Zamas defusing in the manga. IIRC he multiplied into many merged Zamas's. So I don't see how that's a plot hole.

He multiplied because Trunks sliced him in half, as he was defusing. Before that, it was noted that Zamasu was gonna defuse after an hour had passed by Gowasu

I checked it out. Actually, It was noted that Zamas was refusing the diffusion. Since they merged on the cellular level.

I don't remember Zamas defusing in the manga. IIRC he multiplied into many merged Zamas's. So I don't see how that's a plot hole. Also, Zamas and Black were weaker than Goku in Toriyama's outline. Since Goku had a showdown against merged Zamas towards the finale anyways. It's not the same with RoF Freeza, Jiren and Broly, who were actually written to be stronger than Blue Goku.

Also, I didn't contradict myself on Toriyama using fusion against Broly for his legendary hype.That's only part of it. However, I stated why he uses fusion against opponents as an absolute last resort. Keeping that "Trump card" as it's suppose to be, a special Ace in the hole. Unlike TOEI and Toyotaro, who meaninglessly spams Vegetto for cool effect, only to have Goku take on merged Zamas anyway.

Toriyama doesn't spam it for just fanservice, which adds nothing to the story. Fusion against the mighty Broly actually developed Goku's character, a sense of new found pride was ignited as a Saiyan. Due to Broly's strength, Goku finally acknowledges his Saiyan name, Kakarot. Since Broly is possibly stronger than Beerus, who is a god, as a mere Saiyan!. Broly's already hyped status was only part of the story line. However, Toriyama used it and made it useful to the narrative to develop our protagonist.

He was about to, they still gave him the limit. And again, the bold is the main issue I keep coming back to. The antagonists shouldn't be weaker or non-threatening to Goku and Vegeta, because why should we care otherwise? It's the Resurrection F problem, and I'm glad the show didn't go that route.

Using Vegetto against Zamasu was still treated as a last resort, and it makes sense that they would break their no fusing rule against someone else who'd fused- remember, that was the justification they used with Buu. And it also makes sense that the two fusions would be roughly equal, since they were roughly equal unfused as well (with Black and Zamasu having the advantage, which again, they should have because they're the bad guys). At the end of the day, the story was about Trunks and he was the one who got the win. Having Vegetto there simply helped cement Zamasu's strength and the threat he posed. If Toyotaro wanted to throw Vegetto in as well for a meaningless squash match, that's his problem. I couldn't care less about his version.

You've also touched on an issue I have with the Broly movie that's unrelated, which is all of the development you've inferred wasn't addressed in the movie itself. We just see Goku turn up at the end saying Kakarot and act like it means something (other than "hey guys, remember that's what old Broly used to say"). And the scene of Goku convincing Vegeta to fuse also bugged me, because by that point we've seen the two of them "put aside their differences to work together" so many times now. It's not new any more, they've been doing it since Buu. Goku even uses the exact same argument to convince Vegeta, pulling the old "My Bulma" card. Which is is also overdone and indicative of why modern Vegeta is such a stale character, if we want to get back to the original point of this topic.

Goku having to threaten Vegeta about his family in order to fuse is just the stubborn pride of Vegeta. This aspect of his character is what drives him as a Saiyan and will never leave. Which also demonstrates the rivalry aspect between the two. This is just that consistent characterization of a main caster. Also, Goku finally giving his Saiyan blood a bow was due to Broly's strength. It's not a call back to old Broly calling him "Kakaort." lol, Goku is going to fight Beerus again someday and for Broly, who is a mere Saiyan, to be possibly stronger than a god, inspired Goku tremendously. This is why he wants to travel back and forth to fight Broly.

TOEI randomly throwing Vegetto out there was meaningless cause at the end of the day, Goku first overpowered merged Zamas, Which made Zamas look weak anyway. Taking away the belief that he could fight a fusion after getting handled by a single. That Goku scene also undermined Trunks and Vegeta's combined attack against Zamas earlier. Then they have Vegetto come in and do nothing to Zamas, only then to have Trunks, with a random Genki Dama "like" attack, finish Zamas. That's not a last resort measure for fusion which is suppose to be the end all be all.. All that inconsistent storytelling made Vegetto and fused Zamas look weak. Since TOEI can't get their narrative straight on how to climb a battle power ladder correctly.

This is exactly why DB without Toriyama is nonsensical. Toriyama keeps his story consistent with god powers being special, cream of the crop. Due to the heightened elevation of god forms in Toriyama's narrative, enemies that are able to battle it head up;, fused or not, doesn't make them look weak. Unlike TOEI, who has ruined the forms with random power ups and tacky additions, spammed all the time against anyone, which do nothing to show it's importance and uniqueness for the story's sake.

[Kataphrut]

I don't remember Zamas defusing in the manga. IIRC he multiplied into many merged Zamas's. So I don't see how that's a plot hole. Also, Zamas and Black were weaker than Goku in Toriyama's outline. Since Goku had a showdown against merged Zamas towards the finale anyways. It's not the same with RoF Freeza, Jiren and Broly, who were actually written to be stronger than Blue Goku.

Also, I didn't contradict myself on Toriyama using fusion against Broly for his legendary hype.That's only part of it. However, I stated why he uses fusion against opponents as an absolute last resort. Keeping that "Trump card" as it's suppose to be, a special Ace in the hole. Unlike TOEI and Toyotaro, who meaninglessly spams Vegetto for cool effect, only to have Goku take on merged Zamas anyway.

Toriyama doesn't spam it for just fanservice, which adds nothing to the story. Fusion against the mighty Broly actually developed Goku's character, a sense of new found pride was ignited as a Saiyan. Due to Broly's strength, Goku finally acknowledges his Saiyan name, Kakarot. Since Broly is possibly stronger than Beerus, who is a god, as a mere Saiyan!. Broly's already hyped status was only part of the story line. However, Toriyama used it and made it useful to the narrative to develop our protagonist.

He was about to, they still gave him the limit. And again, the bold is the main issue I keep coming back to. The antagonists shouldn't be weaker or non-threatening to Goku and Vegeta, because why should we care otherwise? It's the Resurrection F problem, and I'm glad the show didn't go that route.

Using Vegetto against Zamasu was still treated as a last resort, and it makes sense that they would break their no fusing rule against someone else who'd fused- remember, that was the justification they used with Buu. And it also makes sense that the two fusions would be roughly equal, since they were roughly equal unfused as well (with Black and Zamasu having the advantage, which again, they should have because they're the bad guys). At the end of the day, the story was about Trunks and he was the one who got the win. Having Vegetto there simply helped cement Zamasu's strength and the threat he posed. If Toyotaro wanted to throw Vegetto in as well for a meaningless squash match, that's his problem. I couldn't care less about his version.

You've also touched on an issue I have with the Broly movie that's unrelated, which is all of the development you've inferred wasn't addressed in the movie itself. We just see Goku turn up at the end saying Kakarot and act like it means something (other than "hey guys, remember that's what old Broly used to say"). And the scene of Goku convincing Vegeta to fuse also bugged me, because by that point we've seen the two of them "put aside their differences to work together" so many times now. It's not new any more, they've been doing it since Buu. Goku even uses the exact same argument to convince Vegeta, pulling the old "My Bulma" card. Which is is also overdone and indicative of why modern Vegeta is such a stale character, if we want to get back to the original point of this topic.

Goku having to threaten Vegeta about his family in order to fuse is just the stubborn pride of Vegeta. This aspect of his character is what drives him as a Saiyan and will never leave. Which also demonstrates the rivalry aspect between the two. This is just that consistent characterization of a main caster. Also, Goku finally giving his Saiyan blood a bow was due to Broly's strength. It's not a call back to old Broly calling him "Kakaort." lol, Goku is going to fight Beerus again someday and for Broly, who is a mere Saiyan, to be possibly stronger than a god, inspired Goku tremendously. This is why he wants to travel back and forth to fight Broly.

TOEI randomly throwing Vegetto out there was meaningless cause at the end of the day, Goku first overpowered merged Zamas, Which made Zamas look weak anyway. Taking away the belief that he could fight a fusion after getting handled by a single. That Goku scene also undermined Trunks and Vegeta's combined attack against Zamas earlier. Then they have Vegetto come in and do nothing to Zamas, only then to have Trunks, with a random Genki Dama "like" attack, finish Zamas. That's not a last resort measure for fusion which is suppose to be the end all be all.. All that inconsistent storytelling made Vegetto and fused Zamas look weak. Since TOEI can't get their narrative straight on how to climb a battle power ladder correctly.

This is exactly why DB without Toriyama is nonsensical. Toriyama keeps his story consistent with god powers being special, cream of the crop. Due to the heightened elevation of god forms in Toriyama's narrative, enemies that are able to battle it head up;, fused or not, doesn't make them look weak. Unlike TOEI, who has ruined the forms with random power ups and tacky additions, spammed all the time against anyone, which do nothing to show it's importance and uniqueness for the story's sake.

This isn't GT, stop acting like Toriyama isn't involved and Toei are just going rogue with his outlines (which aren't actual stories btw, they were made to be adapted by Toei and Toyo). He approves their decisions, and has stepped in and vetoed or reworked their ideas on occasion. Remember, he was the one who told them to ditch their planned route of giving Jiren a personality and made him a sad bloke with a vague tragic backstory. And you know what, I'll put that alongside making Black and Zamasu weaker than Goku and Vegeta as reasons why his decisions aren't always right.

I think this argument started with me defending Blue Kaioken, and I will say its single appearance in the Trunks arc was used fine. He damned near killed himself using it to break out of Zamasu's grab, and ultimately Zamasu came out of the situation fine (if a little messed up on one side) while Goku was left lying on the ground. And in this house we appreciate the Spirit Sword scene, because it put the development and emotional through-line of the arc with Trunks, where it belongs. Even if it ended in tragedy, it was better to show that Trunks had what it took to protect the future and bring hope to everyone rather than having his dad solve everything.

Also, don't try to argue there was more to that Broly ending than a callback. The whole point of that movie is to call back to popular ideas, its the reason it exists. That's why Broly ceases to be a character once the fighting starts, because everyone is there to watch him go crazy like they remember in the original. And you call Goku bringing up Vegeta's family consistent, I call it old hat. If he's going to need that to convince him every time, then he hasn't actually grown as a character since Buu.

[Aim]

He was about to, they still gave him the limit. And again, the bold is the main issue I keep coming back to. The antagonists shouldn't be weaker or non-threatening to Goku and Vegeta, because why should we care otherwise? It's the Resurrection F problem, and I'm glad the show didn't go that route.

It makes sense how Fusion Zamasu wasn't that strong. Zamasu is a lot weaker than Goku Black which in theory would mean the fusion would result in being weaker, but due to Black's strength, it would be enough to take on one SSGSS. Obviously due to SSGSS's stamina drain (if Toriyama even meant for that to be a thing), they'd have trouble dealing with an enemy that is immortal. This would bring something new to the story, instead of the same old villain being stronger each time scenario it would be that the enemy isn't strong so much in the sense like Son Goku and Vegeta are strong, but strong in the sense that Zamasu's abilities would be extremely hard to get past.

This is such a Toriyama thing to do.

Using Vegetto against Zamasu was still treated as a last resort, and it makes sense that they would break their no fusing rule against someone else who'd fused- remember, that was the justification they used with Buu. And it also makes sense that the two fusions would be roughly equal, since they were roughly equal unfused as well (with Black and Zamasu having the advantage, which again, they should have because they're the bad guys). At the end of the day, the story was about Trunks and he was the one who got the win. Having Vegetto there simply helped cement Zamasu's strength and the threat he posed. If Toyotaro wanted to throw Vegetto in as well for a meaningless squash match, that's his problem. I couldn't care less about his version.

They used fusion once, then never touched it again after, not even with Pure Buu. Broly was an exception being way stronger than what Zamasu was meant to be. It makes sense how they wouldn't fuse if they thought they could handle him together.