Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

[ABED]

Does it even matter what genre Dragon Ball is? Do a storyline well enough and all media can be any genre.

Also, clear divisions between genres don't exist. Even the "pure" science fiction writers borrowed a lot of elements from noir, hardboiled detective stories, and folklore.

Agreed, to me Star Wars is still sci-fi even it's a different kind of sci-fi from Star Trek.

To my knowledge, the hard speculative science fiction is relatively recent. The more fantastical sci-fi had been around a lot longer than what we generally think of as science fiction these days.

I do think genre matters, but not as these hermetically sealed rigid categories but more as a short hand and a way to set expectations.

[McDonaldsGuy]

I am on planetnamek's side. I love... NOT the sub... but I think dubs should be as close to it as possible and I dont think Faulconer is more fitting to Z just because its more action oriented... but I think planetnamek is more mature about this. You cant just insult people to win arguments.

Agreed, telling me to "fuck off" just for pointing out that a term is problematic because it's history is rooted in racism and saying that maybe one shouldn't use it anymore is incredibly immature and childish.

Is your username based off of the Planet Namek website? Holy crap my nostalgia is in overload. I completely forgot about that site. I STILL remember the day that site closed down and I AIMed him (yeah I know I contradicted myself lol). Now I am going to webarchive!!!

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

Does it even matter what genre Dragon Ball is? Do a storyline well enough and all media can be any genre.

Also, clear divisions between genres don't exist. Even the "pure" science fiction writers borrowed a lot of elements from noir, hardboiled detective stories, and folklore.

Agreed, to me Star Wars is still sci-fi even it's a different kind of sci-fi from Star Trek.

And speaking of Star Trek, compare the episode Balance of Terror to naval war stories like The Enemy Below. It's the same thing except in space! Genre isn't something writers are all too fussed about when they're actually writing and they only bow to conventions when they're trying to give their story a very specific feel.

[McDonaldsGuy]

Dragon Ball Z is sci-fi. He even basically did the story from Terminator. lol

DBZ is not science fiction. It's Matrial Science Fantasy than actual Sci-Fi. The same reason why Star Wars is considered to be Science Fantasy and not Sci-Fi.

Star Wars is a "space opera" which is a subgenre of Science Fiction. Like how Romantic Comedy is a subgenre of comedy. It's nitpicky IMO. DBZ has all the makings of science fiction - parallel universes; time travel; space travel; aliens; androids; etc. etc. Star Wars borrows heavily from all genres - the Death Star battle in A New Hope is a literal rip off of a WWII movie called Dam Busters for example. It also borrows from Japanese samurai genre as well as westerners. But overall it's science fiction - a space opera.

Speaking of Star Wars, one of the reasons the movies (well, the original trilogy) are so great is due to the score. The reason the score works so well is because when you listen to it, it tells the story. A good score can you tell you the story without knowing what's going on. Por ejemplo: when you hear "The Imperial March," you know it's a Vader scene. Listen to any OST track from "A New Hope" or "The Empire Strikes Back" and you pretty much know what scene the piece belongs to.

Falcouner I think does this very well - each song fits to a scene. Now a common complaint is that the music plays all the time, but this is more of a producer/production issue than Faulconer. Apparently Funimation wanted music to always be playing because they thought kids would lose attention if they weren't.

For example: when you hear that piano, you know Super Saiyan Vegeta is doing something bad ass. Final Flash; attacking Cell after he killed Trunks; or attacking Cell to help Gohan. Another example: Gohan's anger theme. When that plays, Gohan is gonna do something bad ass. Another example: the Ginyu transformation scene usually plays when a major villain dies.

[ABED]

But the score fits the film. John Williams' score isn't music in service of a terrible film. Had that first film flopped, it wouldn't be an iconic score, just like I doubt anyone beyond film nerds would've remembered his Jaws theme had the film been directed by a third rate director instead of Spielberg. It's a symbiotic relationship.

For example: when you hear that piano, you know Super Saiyan Vegeta is doing something bad ass. Final Flash; attacking Cell after he killed Trunks; or attacking Cell to help Gohan. Another example: Gohan's anger theme. When that plays, Gohan is gonna do something bad ass. Another example: the Ginyu transformation scene usually plays when a major villain dies.

That's it, that's all he seems to convey. "This is badass". Not exactly full of nuance. It's practically yelling at the audience as if they can't feel it from the acting and the story. It reminds me of whenever I read Faulconer fans opinions about the theme that played when Goku turns Super Saiyan. It's all about how "badass" that moment is. I like badass stuff, but there's very little things as uninteresting as cool and badass, at least in the long run. What really sticks with people is character and emotional resonance.

[Valerius Dover]

I know these "badass" tracks are the ones fans talk about the most, but I've always been a bigger fan of the quieter and more serene tracks whenever they do show up.

[ABED]

I know these "badass" tracks are the ones fans talk about the most, but I've always been a bigger fan of the quieter and more serene tracks whenever they do show up.

I assume you mean the quieter Faulconer score tracks.

[Cure Dragon 255]

What if people do feel the Kikuchi scores fits better than the Faulconer one? What if these people are not the minority you make them out to be? I know its NOT objective that Kikuchi is better but you should know that its also not objective that Faulconer is better either.

Except the Vegeta Super Saiyan. That does go with everything.

EDIT: I also admit the Faulconer fandom is not a minority.

[Cure Dragon 255]

What if people do feel the Kikuchi scores fits better than the Faulconer one? What if these people are not the minority you make them out to be? I know its NOT objective that Kikuchi is better but you should know that its also not objective that Faulconer is better either.

Except the Vegeta Super Saiyan. That does go with everything.

EDIT: I also admit the Faulconer fandom is not a minority.

2nd EDIT: Also what ABED said, not every scene is supposed to be "Badass". You can even like it better but you are not really getting Dragon Ball if you insist you know better than the people that made the show and especially the manga.

[McDonaldsGuy]

But the score fits the film. John Williams' score isn't music in service of a terrible film. Had that first film flopped, it wouldn't be an iconic score, just like I doubt anyone beyond film nerds would've remembered his Jaws theme had the film been directed by a third rate director instead of Spielberg. It's a symbiotic relationship.

For example: when you hear that piano, you know Super Saiyan Vegeta is doing something bad ass. Final Flash; attacking Cell after he killed Trunks; or attacking Cell to help Gohan. Another example: Gohan's anger theme. When that plays, Gohan is gonna do something bad ass. Another example: the Ginyu transformation scene usually plays when a major villain dies.

That's it, that's all he seems to convey. "This is badass". Not exactly full of nuance. It's practically yelling at the audience as if they can't feel it from the acting and the story. It reminds me of whenever I read Faulconer fans opinions about the theme that played when Goku turns Super Saiyan. It's all about how "badass" that moment is. I like badass stuff, but there's very little things as uninteresting as cool and badass, at least in the long run. What really sticks with people is character and emotional resonance.

Faulconer's theme has more emotion when Vegeta attacks Cell both times (after Trunks' death and the final one) with one piano note than an entire Japanese orchestra.

When Vegeta blindsides Cell in Japanese there's no change in emotion.... it's almost like dancing music, not an epic struggle to save the planet.

[ABED]

I have nothing to say about the first line that wouldn't be "nah ah!" However, it feels like whenever dub music fans talk about the "epic" music, what they are saying is they need the music to convey that vague emotion and make it as subtle as a brick through a window. It bothers me because it's like someone constantly tapping you on the shoulder saying "Isn't this awesome? Can you believe how awesome this is!"

[Cure Dragon 255]

But the score fits the film. John Williams' score isn't music in service of a terrible film. Had that first film flopped, it wouldn't be an iconic score, just like I doubt anyone beyond film nerds would've remembered his Jaws theme had the film been directed by a third rate director instead of Spielberg. It's a symbiotic relationship.

For example: when you hear that piano, you know Super Saiyan Vegeta is doing something bad ass. Final Flash; attacking Cell after he killed Trunks; or attacking Cell to help Gohan. Another example: Gohan's anger theme. When that plays, Gohan is gonna do something bad ass. Another example: the Ginyu transformation scene usually plays when a major villain dies.

That's it, that's all he seems to convey. "This is badass". Not exactly full of nuance. It's practically yelling at the audience as if they can't feel it from the acting and the story. It reminds me of whenever I read Faulconer fans opinions about the theme that played when Goku turns Super Saiyan. It's all about how "badass" that moment is. I like badass stuff, but there's very little things as uninteresting as cool and badass, at least in the long run. What really sticks with people is character and emotional resonance.

Faulconer's theme has more emotion when Vegeta attacks Cell both times (after Trunks' death and the final one) with one piano note than an entire Japanese orchestra.

When Vegeta blindsides Cell in Japanese there's no change in emotion.... it's almost like dancing music, not an epic struggle to save the planet.

WAIT WHAT? I thought you were reasonable but now I see that I was wrong. So the american score has WAY MORE EMOTION than not just Kikuchi but ANY Japanese Orchestra? I was trying to see your point of view and think it was reasonable but if you think that you are majorly deluded.

[McDonaldsGuy]

I have nothing to say about the first line that wouldn't be "nah ah!" However, it feels like whenever dub music fans talk about the "epic" music, what they are saying is they need the music to convey that vague emotion and make it as subtle as a brick through a window. It bothers me because it's like someone constantly tapping you on the shoulder saying "Isn't this awesome? Can you believe how awesome this is!"

Well there's a reason they do that - Star Wars is very similar in terms of being loud and bombastic. So is Jaws. The Jaws theme is pretty much "Someone is about to get eaten!" and gets louder as the shark gets closer. Superman's legendary movie theme is legendary BECAUSE it's so epic and in your face. It's not even remotely subtle.

When Vegeta attacks Cell from behind and Gohan kills Cell in Japanese, it sounds like a middle school marching band playing when the death of a 100 episode-saga villain should be much more than that. There's a reason DBZ Video game OSTs are more like Solid State Scouter (which is frickin AMAZING) than the nonsense that plays during Goku's Japanese SSJ3 transformation.

Battle Point Unlimited; Solid State Scouter; Spirit vs. Spirit (Gohan SSJ2 theme); Hikai no Willpower; Cha La Head Cha La.... these themes totally blow away Faulconer. Watching Gohan turn SSJ2 in Japanese gives me chills. THAT'S what the soundtrack should do. The dub version is totally awful - from the dialogue to the internal monologue to the soundtrack.

The Ultimate Battle 22 SSJ3 Goku theme is awesome, and I think that type of music really fits Japanese DBZ (Faulconer wouldn't fit for Japanese DBZ IMO).

[McDonaldsGuy]

But the score fits the film. John Williams' score isn't music in service of a terrible film. Had that first film flopped, it wouldn't be an iconic score, just like I doubt anyone beyond film nerds would've remembered his Jaws theme had the film been directed by a third rate director instead of Spielberg. It's a symbiotic relationship.

That's it, that's all he seems to convey. "This is badass". Not exactly full of nuance. It's practically yelling at the audience as if they can't feel it from the acting and the story. It reminds me of whenever I read Faulconer fans opinions about the theme that played when Goku turns Super Saiyan. It's all about how "badass" that moment is. I like badass stuff, but there's very little things as uninteresting as cool and badass, at least in the long run. What really sticks with people is character and emotional resonance.

Faulconer's theme has more emotion when Vegeta attacks Cell both times (after Trunks' death and the final one) with one piano note than an entire Japanese orchestra.

When Vegeta blindsides Cell in Japanese there's no change in emotion.... it's almost like dancing music, not an epic struggle to save the planet.

WAIT WHAT? I thought you were reasonable but now I see that I was wrong. So the american score has WAY MORE EMOTION than not just Kikuchi but ANY Japanese Orchestra? I was trying to see your point of view and think it was reasonable but if you think that you are majorly deluded.

I am referring to Kikuchi, not all Japanese orchestras haha. Though it does come off that way. I actually like Super's soundtrack. I actually don't hate DBZ's OST, I just think it fits DB better.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Phew! You are fine then. I admit Kikuchi is a bit of an adquired taste.

I mean. This is problably pretty damn epic too!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1N7Hanp6p70&t=2s

(Ignore the cute magical girls. I assure you will at least be pumped by this theme.)

[ABED]

I have nothing to say about the first line that wouldn't be "nah ah!" However, it feels like whenever dub music fans talk about the "epic" music, what they are saying is they need the music to convey that vague emotion and make it as subtle as a brick through a window. It bothers me because it's like someone constantly tapping you on the shoulder saying "Isn't this awesome? Can you believe how awesome this is!"

Well there's a reason they do that - Star Wars is very similar in terms of being loud and bombastic. So is Jaws. The Jaws theme is pretty much "Someone is about to get eaten!" and gets louder as the shark gets closer. Superman's legendary movie theme is legendary BECAUSE it's so epic and in your face. It's not even remotely subtle.

When Vegeta attacks Cell from behind and Gohan kills Cell in Japanese, it sounds like a middle school marching band playing when the death of a 100 episode-saga villain should be much more than that. There's a reason DBZ Video game OSTs are more like Solid State Scouter (which is frickin AMAZING) than the nonsense that plays during Goku's Japanese SSJ3 transformation.

Battle Point Unlimited; Solid State Scouter; Spirit vs. Spirit (Gohan SSJ2 theme); Hikai no Willpower; Cha La Head Cha La.... these themes totally blow away Faulconer. Watching Gohan turn SSJ2 in Japanese gives me chills. THAT'S what the soundtrack should do. The dub version is totally awful - from the dialogue to the internal monologue to the soundtrack.

The Ultimate Battle 22 SSJ3 Goku theme is awesome, and I think that type of music really fits Japanese DBZ (Faulconer wouldn't fit for Japanese DBZ IMO).

Don't compare Faulconer to Williams. Williams themes aren't as vague as epic and badass. It's about excitement, tension (like in Jaws), heroism, hope, sadness, longing, etc. It's about specific emotions. I'm not against necessarily being in your face but you damn sure better be good at it and Williams is unquestionably one of the best, whereas Faulconer is not. You go a step in the wrong direction and instead of something sweet, you get something cloying.

And you seem well versed enough to understand that at least with Jaws, they were limited by damn mechanical shark so they had to drive tension through things like the music.

[Planetnamek]

I am on planetnamek's side. I love... NOT the sub... but I think dubs should be as close to it as possible and I dont think Faulconer is more fitting to Z just because its more action oriented... but I think planetnamek is more mature about this. You cant just insult people to win arguments.

Agreed, telling me to "fuck off" just for pointing out that a term is problematic because it's history is rooted in racism and saying that maybe one shouldn't use it anymore is incredibly immature and childish.

Is your username based off of the Planet Namek website? Holy crap my nostalgia is in overload. I completely forgot about that site. I STILL remember the day that site closed down and I AIMed him (yeah I know I contradicted myself lol). Now I am going to webarchive!!!

Sure is! i'm bummed that I missed that site's heyday(and apparently the current owner of the domain is using robots.txt so you can't access it via Wayback machine ) so I decided to make that my username.

I have nothing to say about the first line that wouldn't be "nah ah!" However, it feels like whenever dub music fans talk about the "epic" music, what they are saying is they need the music to convey that vague emotion and make it as subtle as a brick through a window. It bothers me because it's like someone constantly tapping you on the shoulder saying "Isn't this awesome? Can you believe how awesome this is!"

I'm totally OK with music scores doing that as long as it's done well and I think Faulconer for the most part pulls it off.

[MasenkoHA]

Don't compare Faulconer to Williams. Williams themes aren't as vague as epic and badass. It's about excitement, tension (like in Jaws), heroism, hope, sadness, longing, etc. It's about specific emotions. I'm not against necessarily being in your face but you damn sure better be good at it and Williams is unquestionably one of the best, whereas Faulconer is not. You go a step in the wrong direction and instead of something sweet, you get something cloying.

I wouldn’t even feel comfortable comparing Kikuchi (ala the only good composer Dragon Ball ever had) with Williams.

Actually if you want to compare a Dragon Ball composer to Williams it would be Yamamoto if only because Kai had this very bombastic epic-ish Hollywood score and we all know why that is...

Faulconer’s music just sounds like music you hear on a Sega Game. Except when it is doing schlocky cartoon music like during the goofy scenes.

[GhostEmperorX]

I admit Kikuchi is a bit of an acquired taste.

Same with Masako Nozawa as Goku for many, but it works when surrounded by other elements of the same original JP setting.
DB is certainly unusual when compared to other concurrent productions. But the broadcast audio does put how it fits into better perspective, especially for the first few episodes of the series (thus far).

However, his older stuff I actually prefer with no problem.

For example: when you hear that piano, you know Super Saiyan Vegeta is doing something bad ass. Final Flash; attacking Cell after he killed Trunks; or attacking Cell to help Gohan. Another example: Gohan's anger theme. When that plays, Gohan is gonna do something bad ass. Another example: the Ginyu transformation scene usually plays when a major villain dies.

It would have helped though if they had variations done by different instruments so that it's actually the same melody in different forms rather than just a whole different theme altogether and it's the same incarnation of a theme that plays just about all the time.

It's practically yelling at the audience as if they can't feel it from the acting and the story.

This is why it actually does make sense here to have music that doesn't overstep its boundaries, and why even non-standout tracks work.

Kikuchi (ala the only good composer Dragon Ball ever had)

Well the show did have Yasunori Iwasaki contributing a few tracks to it, not to mention the songs made by Takeshi Ike and Keiju Ishikawa.

[Metalwario64]

Sure is! i'm bummed that I missed that site's heyday(and apparently the current owner of the domain is using robots.txt so you can't access it via Wayback machine ) so I decided to make that my username.

A few years ago, it became accessible again on the Wayback Machine. I even just checked now and it still seems to be working.