After all these years, I hear that Frieza's PL was wrong?

[Herms]

Heh, my personal pet peeve is still how the manga and anime state that saibaimen are even with Raditz, and the Daizenshuu gives different figures.

"Even" isn't really a good translation. The word used is hitteki-suru, which means "come near" or "rank with" (see herefor more). The full of what Nappa says about the Saibaimen is then "Going just by power, they're comparable to Raditz".

[ect5150]

[Diary entry, September 10, 1918]: We discussed the right name of the war. I said the we called it now The War, but that this could not last. The Napoleonic War was The Great War. To call it The German War was too much flattery for the Boche. I suggested The World War as a shade better title, and finally we mutually agreed to call it The First World War in order to prevent the millennium folk from forgetting that the history of the world was the history of war. - Charles A. Repington, journalist for The Times

Okay, sure... I'm not a history major. But stay on target, no one ever said Super Saiyan Level 1 until two came about (although I personally don't remember it being referenced as 2 until Goku showed level 3, but I'm not too familiar with the section following the Cell Games to when when Buu appears.)

And, to get back on topic, if they are the same (they being the levels of KKX1 and KKX2), there is no need to differentiate between Kaio-ken and Kaio-ken X 2. That would be akin to saying WW1 and WW2 were the same (which is somewhat, and I stress somewhat, how the war topic was brought in). But they clearly aren't, so because of that, I don't buy into the argument that claims Goku just added "X2" for the hell of it in the middle of the fight (for whoever said that).

[Li'l Lemmy]

Okay, sure... I'm not a history major. But stay on target, no one ever said Super Saiyan Level 1 until two came about (although I personally don't remember it being referenced as 2 until Goku showed level 3, but I'm not too familiar with the section following the Cell Games to when when Buu appears.)

The level was never referenced as 2 until Goku demonstrated the third, yes. It's also the only time that it is directly termed "Super Saiya-jin 2", as it quickly loses importance after the introduction of levels 3 and 4 and thus becomes lost in the shuffle.

Before Buu, Level 2 was frequently referenced as having "even further overcome" the Super Saiya-jin wall. After Buu, it is never referenced again in any way.

End helpful lesson, continue on-topicness.


~Da Lemmy

[Xyex]

Heh, my personal pet peeve is still how the manga and anime state that saibaimen are even with Raditz, and the Daizenshuu gives different figures. On top of which, it puts Raditz at a level where Gohan's headbutt and Piccolo's Makankosappo should have been manageable (1500), yet the second something clocked 1300 or over Raditz soiled himself.

As I mentioned before, that's a typo in the PL chart. Raditz power is listed correctly elswhere in the Daizenshuu, such as his bio.

Okay, sure... I'm not a history major. But stay on target, no one ever said Super Saiyan Level 1 until two came about (although I personally don't remember it being referenced as 2 until Goku showed level 3, but I'm not too familiar with the section following the Cell Games to when when Buu appears.)

And, to get back on topic, if they are the same (they being the levels of KKX1 and KKX2), there is no need to differentiate between Kaio-ken and Kaio-ken X 2. That would be akin to saying WW1 and WW2 were the same (which is somewhat, and I stress somewhat, how the war topic was brought in). But they clearly aren't, so because of that, I don't buy into the argument that claims Goku just added "X2" for the hell of it in the middle of the fight (for whoever said that).

I think the point he's trying to make is that it was only refrenced as "x2" because now there are multiple levels and 1) going from "Kaioken!" to "Kaioken x3!" would be odd, plus the x# refrences the power boost, more so than the Kaioken level. Thus, when it was *just* Kaioken you knew it was a doubling of power. But now that there's levels you have to refrence which amount you're increasing by. 2, 3, 4, etc.

So yeah, they aren't differentiating between Kaioken and Kaioken x2, they're using the new naming scheme to refer to the Kaioken by the ammount it boosts your power. It'd be like if at the Cell Games they referred to SSJ by power increase. IE, Goku and Gohan were "Super Saiya-jin 20" would be a 20 fold SSJ over base, not a level 20 Super Saiya-jin.

[Herms]

As I mentioned before, that's a typo in the PL chart. Raditz power is listed correctly elswhere in the Daizenshuu, such as his bio.

As far as I know, this isn't true. Raditz's Daizenshuu 7 bio doesn't give any specific number for his battle power, only noting that it was very low for a Saiyan. I'm not aware of his battle power being given anywhere else in that or any other daizenshuu. And again, there's no reason it would need to be dead-on equal to the Saibaimen, since the original line from the manga doesn't indicate that sort of thing.

[Xyex]

As I mentioned before, that's a typo in the PL chart. Raditz power is listed correctly elswhere in the Daizenshuu, such as his bio.

As far as I know, this isn't true. Raditz's Daizenshuu 7 bio doesn't give any specific number for his battle power, only noting that it was very low for a Saiyan. I'm not aware of his battle power being given anywhere else in that or any other daizenshuu. And again, there's no reason it would need to be dead-on equal to the Saibaimen, since the original line from the manga doesn't indicate that sort of thing.

Huh. I'd heard from a number of sources that his power was mentioned in his bio at least, and maybe somewhere else as well.

[Tyro]

If you watch the fight with Vegeta, it seems like Kaioken and x2 are two different things.

It does?

But, against Ginyu, I'm pretty sure he simply said "Kaioken" and his PL went from 90k to 180k, right? Like, Ginyu clicks the scouter when he says it, and the first reading is 90k?

Ginyu's second estimation of Goku's actual battle strength was "about 85,000." Goku's demonstration the Kaio-ken proves that he was actually 90,000, because 180,000/2 = 90,000.

It couldn't really be a base power, cuz Nappa didn't know how to hide/amplify his power the way the Z senshi could.

No one at the Saiya-jin arc besides Nappa and Vegeta could "power up". Everyone always suppressed their ki, so their actual base state (like being without weighted clothing) was their "full power". You follow?

Remember that the bad guys could power up, but whenever someone did so and the scouter readout changed they thought the things were malfunctioning.

Not entirely. Vegeta and Nappa were shocked (particularly by Goku) because "those numbers could just be for starters". Nappa showed on three occasions that he was capable of powering up beyond his base state. Vegeta did once, too.

EDIT- the linked post on why the PLs must have been so high lost me around the part where they start talking about Vegeta being impressed with the resolute Goku.

Because Vegeta's auto-evolving mechanism boosted him higher than even Piccolo (Piccolo stated he couldn‘t follow Freeza‘s ‘death beams‘ while Vegeta could. He even saved Gohan‘s life by kicking him out of the way), who stated that he could beat Freeza (second suppression, full power) once he got serious and took off his weighted clothing. That's way over 1,000,000. Somewhere between 2,000,000 and 3,000,000. Goku showed up, displayed no Kaio-ken aura, knocked away the 'death beams' no one but Vegeta could see, and when Freeza physically attacked, he was knocked away by Goku's kick.

Do you know what Freeza did to Vegeta when he stopped playing around and just speed blitzing everyone? He. Owned. Him. Badly. Very badly. Vegeta couldn't follow his movements. His (Vegeta’s) blast, which scared Piccolo of possibly destroying Namek had Freeza dodged, although seeming to shock Freeza, was repelled by a single kick.

This is why being shocked at Goku's base strength is such a big deal. He was that much stronger than himself.

Power Level discussions are the thorn in the side of DBZ fandom. Seriously, it doesnt matter if Freeza was stronger, he screwed him self over.

That wasn't really my point. Some of us actually like discussing power levels like intelligent human beings. We're capable of it. I'm sorry that you disagree, but don't come down on the thread about it.

[Herms]

Huh. I'd heard from a number of sources that his power was mentioned in his bio at least, and maybe somewhere else as well.

Yeah, I'd heard that a lot too, which is why I checked awhile back and didn't find anything. I don't have my copy of Daizenshuu 7 with me right now though, so I can't recheck, but I'm pretty certain I didn't miss anything (his bio is pretty short). I wonder if perhaps its something that Glenat's French translation of Daizenshuu 7 added? I think Dayspring was one of the people who said that Raditz's bio gave his battle power as 1,200, and I believe he owned the French Daizenshuu 7.

Remember that the bad guys could power up, but whenever someone did so and the scouter readout changed they thought the things were malfunctioning.

Not entirely. Vegeta and Nappa were shocked (particularly by Goku) because "those numbers could just be for starters". Nappa showed on three occasions that he was capable of powering up beyond his base state. Vegeta did once, too.

They do perform that whole "powering up" thing, but then on Planet Namek Vegeta shocks Kyui by making his scouter reading increase suddenly. He tells Kyui that he learned this trick from the people he fought on Earth. So apparently while before Vegeta needed to/could pump up his ki before battling at his full strength, it never changed his scouter reading.

[Tyro]

They do perform that whole "powering up" thing, but then on Planet Namek Vegeta shocks Kyui by making his scouter reading increase suddenly. He tells Kyui that he learned this trick from the people he fought on Earth. So apparently while before Vegeta needed to/could pump up his ki before battling at his full strength, it never changed his scouter reading.

Unless VIZ have(has?) their translations screwed up again, Vegeta does state "No. How to conceal my true power!!!!"

I believe Oliver Somethingoranother stated he translated it as "control my power", but I don't believe he provided evidence to back up his claim. Either way, "conceal", "control", I see those two as practically meaning the same thing for that specific quote.

[Sun_Wukong]

That wasn't really my point. Some of us actually like discussing power levels like intelligent human beings. We're capable of it. I'm sorry that you disagree, but don't come down on the thread about it.

You can't possibly think discussing power levels requires the least bit of intelligence. Power Levels bring up the "who's stronger" issue, which is something that makes DBZ fans look stupid. You can't have a serious argument about power levels; it's an oxymoron.

There are people who use the Daizenshuu as the basis for their argument, then there's those people who are convinced the power levels on the internet are right. The series doesn't mention any power levels past the Freeza story arc. Since there aren't any power levels written in stone past that, it's just plain silly to argue something like that.

[Rocketman]

They do perform that whole "powering up" thing, but then on Planet Namek Vegeta shocks Kyui by making his scouter reading increase suddenly. He tells Kyui that he learned this trick from the people he fought on Earth. So apparently while before Vegeta needed to/could pump up his ki before battling at his full strength, it never changed his scouter reading.

No, see, here's the difference. Vegeta on Earth has a resting ki of 18,000. He then powers up to, say 20,000. (NOT DECLARING THIS IS OFFICIAL, JUST AN EXAMPLE). He can't sustain 20K for very long, and he can't lower his power below his base of 18K.

Now, he heals from the battle on Earth, gets a zenkai. 25,000 is his new base, but he now knows how to lower his ki, and disguises it to 18K to trick Kwi. The sudden power increase that shocks Kwi is because it's too fast for Vegeta to be forcing his power that high (remember how long it took, even in the manga, for Vegeta to power up on Earth?), so it has to be he's easing off the restrictions he placed on his power.

Unfortunately, this doesn't explain how the Z Fighters didn't sense that Vegeta was stronger than all of them together plus Nappa.

[Kid Trunks]

That wasn't really my point. Some of us actually like discussing power levels like intelligent human beings. We're capable of it. I'm sorry that you disagree, but don't come down on the thread about it.

You can't possibly think discussing power levels requires the least bit of intelligence. Power Levels bring up the "who's stronger" issue, which is something that makes DBZ fans look stupid. You can't have a serious argument about power levels; it's an oxymoron.

There are people who use the Daizenshuu as the basis for their argument, then there's those people who are convinced the power levels on the internet are right. The series doesn't mention any power levels past the Freeza story arc. Since there aren't any power levels written in stone past that, it's just plain silly to argue something like that.

Intelligent or not, it can be interesting to speculate.

[Tyro]

Vegeta on Earth has a resting ki of 18,000. He then powers up to, say 20,000.

Actually, Vegeta supposedly had a full power of "barely 18,000" on Earth. His base state's battle strength was around that of Goku (using Kaio-ken). I tend to think that he's slightly stronger though.

Edit: Page 1, page 2, page 3, page 4.

Now, he heals from the battle on Earth, gets a zenkai. 25,000 is his new base,

24,000.

but he now knows how to lower his ki, and disguises it to 18K to trick Kwi.

Kiwi stated that with Vegeta's (suppressed) power level, he stands no chance in a fight with him. Later, during Vegeta's "power up" ("releasing his ki" is more appropriate), he exclaims that Vegeta's battle strength should be equal to his own, and it was just surpassed on the scouter. So if Kiwi was as strong as Vegeta was when he traveled to Earth, he would logically have to be suppressing his ki below 18,000.

You can't possibly think discussing power levels requires the least bit of intelligence. Power Levels bring up the "who's stronger" issue, which is something that makes DBZ fans look stupid. You can't have a serious argument about power levels; it's an oxymoron.

So it's stupid to question the strength of a character compared to another? Questioning something might motivate people to get off their asses and research something themselves instead of taking it at face value from what someone else says. It leads to debating containing details and whose opinion seems to be more implied in the actual series.

Just because the majority of fans can post something like "i think fightr 2 wll win" and be okay with it doesn't mean that we who actually like stuff like debating wont go out of our way to prove something with solid, canonical evidence.

There are people who use the Daizenshuu as the basis for their argument, then there's those people who are convinced the power levels on the internet are right. The series doesn't mention any power levels past the Freeza story arc. Since there aren't any power levels written in stone past that, it's just plain silly to argue something like that.

I never said what we're arguing. I agree using power levels in discussions of versus and such is stupid (unless they're stated canonically), but talking about "versus" matches is something that can be done.

[ect5150]

If you watch the fight with Vegeta, it seems like Kaioken and x2 are two different things.

It does?

Yeah, it does. Facts for my argument are as follows (and are strictly dependent upon the translations here):




The above two pictures seem to indicate a power difference between normal Kaio-ken and KKx2. The first panel is immediately after Goku shows of KKx1, and the second is after KKx2 is shown. Here Goku clearly states using twice the Kaio-ken is not enough (as opposed to referencing "Kaio-ken" is not enough).

It is reasonable to assume that is twice the Kaioken is not enough, neither was KKx1 either. Therefore X1 and X2 should have a different impact on his power level. Also, the sheer fact a numbering system is used within the names should be an indication of the differences. Earlier we had the discussion of using different names for the same thing (the war examples), but can anyone name a single example where this is true when a version number is implemented within the name as well?

I think its obvious the author wishes the audience to understand there is a difference. And this is done through altering the names.

[Herms]

It does?

Yeah, it does. Facts for my argument are as follows (and are strictly dependent upon the translations here):

<snip>

I think its obvious the author wishes the audience to understand there is a difference. And this is done through altering the names.

Yeah, that all seems to be correct. I actually read the whole Saiyan arc in the kanzenban not too long ago, and noticed the same thing, that "Kaio-ken" and "Kaio-ken x2" are implied to be different. Also, I'm in the middle of translating Daizenshuu 4's attack classification guide, and it lists Kaio-ken and Kaioken x2 as being seperate things. Doesn't explain what the difference between them is though...

[Xyex]

Not entirely. Vegeta and Nappa were shocked (particularly by Goku) because "those numbers could just be for starters". Nappa showed on three occasions that he was capable of powering up beyond his base state. Vegeta did once, too.

I don't think that did anything to their actual ki output. It was just a focusing of power. Like the difference between someone who's just throwing punches and someone who's trying to beat the crap out of you with all their might.

That's way over 1,000,000. Somewhere between 2,000,000 and 3,000,000.

No, that's barely even 1.5 million. Minor differences in number = big difference in actual power. It's like the celsius scale. 88 is a lot more than 80.

Yeah, I'd heard that a lot too, which is why I checked awhile back and didn't find anything. I don't have my copy of Daizenshuu 7 with me right now though, so I can't recheck, but I'm pretty certain I didn't miss anything (his bio is pretty short). I wonder if perhaps its something that Glenat's French translation of Daizenshuu 7 added? I think Dayspring was one of the people who said that Raditz's bio gave his battle power as 1,200, and I believe he owned the French Daizenshuu 7

Yeah, that's possible. I asked TripleRach earlier and she said the same as you, it's not in his bio in the JP version. So maybe it is a French translation difference, though it'd be an odd addition to make.

Unfortunately, this doesn't explain how the Z Fighters didn't sense that Vegeta was stronger than all of them together plus Nappa.

Ki sensing is still a very knew skill to the Z Fighters. About all they can do at this point is rough guess powers. Too rough to really tell the diffrence to any real measurable extent.

The above two pictures seem to indicate a power difference between normal Kaio-ken and KKx2. The first panel is immediately after Goku shows of KKx1, and the second is after KKx2 is shown. Here Goku clearly states using twice the Kaio-ken is not enough (as opposed to referencing "Kaio-ken" is not enough).

It is reasonable to assume that is twice the Kaioken is not enough, neither was KKx1 either. Therefore X1 and X2 should have a different impact on his power level. Also, the sheer fact a numbering system is used within the names should be an indication of the differences. Earlier we had the discussion of using different names for the same thing (the war examples), but can anyone name a single example where this is true when a version number is implemented within the name as well?

I think its obvious the author wishes the audience to understand there is a difference. And this is done through altering the names.

Later usage of the technique proves to us that the Kaioken is a doubling of power. That battle shows us that the 'double' Kaioken is a doubling of power.

There's two theories as to why it's like that. One is that Toriyama just forget/really wasn't sure of the mechanics yet. Both entirely possible, I mean, it is Toriyama we're talking about. The other is that they're the same level of power but the double increases other aspects further than the normal, such as vision, speed, etc.

[ect5150]

Later usage of the technique proves to us that the Kaioken is a doubling of power.

Kaio-ken is a doubling of power. Tyro posted a video that points this fact out from the manga. This we can verify.

That battle shows us that the 'double' Kaioken is a doubling of power.

This statement is where some of us take issue. Please provide a source that verifies KKx2 is also a doubling of power. You guys are theorizing backwards.

Remember the wise Sherlock Holmes once said "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

The only time we see KKx2 is in the Vegeta fight. How does this battle show us the 'double' Kaioken doubles power as well? I mean we see it for a split second before Goku decides to try KKx3. There are no other times we actually see a KKx2 (is there?). Given statements in the manga, it stands to reason the power level should be between KKx1 and KKx3. But if KKx1 is a doubling of power, then KKx2 cannot be a doubling of power. It should be between the two, not equal to one or the other. And the only thing (that I can see) is that we can only verify that KKx3 hits 21,000 at a minimum. So is KKx1 places Goku at roughly 16,000 and its KKx3 looks like its headed for 24,000 (Bulma's scouter explodes at 21,000), then KKx2 should be somewhere in between.

I think the only legit explanation is the author didn't work the math ahead of time (as you mentioned). But that's outside of the DBZ world, I don't think a consistent explanation really exists within the actual DBZ world itself.

[Rocketman]

The only time we see KKx2 is in the Vegeta fight. How does this battle show us the 'double' Kaioken doubles power as well? I mean we see it for a split second before Goku decides to try KKx3. There are no other times we actually see a KKx2 (is there?).

Goku says "Kaio...ken!" and jumps from 90,000 to 180,000 versus Ginyu.

And why would there be a Kaioken x1? That wouldn't do anything. I think it's more likely that Goku is just horrible at math and doesn't know that "times two" equals "double".

[Xyex]

This statement is where some of us take issue. Please provide a source that verifies KKx2 is also a doubling of power. You guys are theorizing backwards.

Remember the wise Sherlock Holmes once said "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

The only time we see KKx2 is in the Vegeta fight. How does this battle show us the 'double' Kaioken doubles power as well? I mean we see it for a split second before Goku decides to try KKx3. There are no other times we actually see a KKx2 (is there?). Given statements in the manga, it stands to reason the power level should be between KKx1 and KKx3. But if KKx1 is a doubling of power, then KKx2 cannot be a doubling of power. It should be between the two, not equal to one or the other. And the only thing (that I can see) is that we can only verify that KKx3 hits 21,000 at a minimum. So is KKx1 places Goku at roughly 16,000 and its KKx3 looks like its headed for 24,000 (Bulma's scouter explodes at 21,000), then KKx2 should be somewhere in between.

There are two things that make it plainly obvious that the Kaioken and the 'double' Kaioken are the same thing. The first is that the Kaioken doubles power and that following levels increase them by folds (of the level). Not only is a x2 a level that is double the base (which follows the pattern) but it's also less than 24,000 which is the only possible level following 16,000 because of how Kaioken works.

The second thing is that Veget still trounced Goku even with Goku using the 'double' Kaioken. Kaioken puts him at more than 16,000. Vegeta is barely 18,000. So there's absolutely no room for another level of Kaioken to fit between those spaces and make any sort of sense.

If it weren't for Goku whispering Kaioken in his battle against Ginyu I'd go with the basic Kaioken being a 50% increase (as I use in my fanfics) just to make things fit better. But the fact is that Kaioken and 'double' Kaioken are the same thing. Unless there's non-power increasing benefits to the 'double' over the 'normal' there is no difference.

You seem to be stuck on why Goku would refer to a double if it's the same as a normal but as I've said it could easily just be a retcon effect. Introducing the triple Kaioken means that now, for the sake of the reader, he needs to refer to the original as a double to show that, no, a level wasn't skipped.

I know it doesn't really make sense, and I hold that there really isn't any good in-universe explanation for this, but the two levels are the same power. The best in-universe explanation is the speed/vision/etc boosting at double over normal.

[Onikage725]

"Even" isn't really a good translation. The word used is hitteki-suru, which means "come near" or "rank with" (see herefor more). The full of what Nappa says about the Saibaimen is then "Going just by power, they're comparable to Raditz".

Still doesn't make a difference. The two figures weren't comparable. According to the Daizenshuu, wasn't Yamcha at 1400 and change? Under their listing for Raditz, and he owns a Saibaiman. Likewise, they list Piccolo and Nappa as being a "mere" 500 points apart, but the difference between them in the fight was vast. I highly doubt a fighter as experienced in both combat and scouter use as Nappa would fail to know the difference. So that brings me back to Daizenshuu error. And with the ensuing discussion, I'm still not sure where we stand on this one

If you watch the fight with Vegeta, it seems like Kaioken and x2 are two different things.

It does?

Yeah, it kinda does. Goku shouts "Kaio-ken" twice, first to take out Nappa and once more against Vegeta. When Vegeta takes the upper hand, he yells out the double in order to evade Vegeta's attack. Afterwards, when preparing for the 3x, he states "I can't even keep up with him with a 2x Kaio-ken!"

So yeah, it seems at first glance that there is a level of Kaio-ken between the basic and the x3. The basic answer is just that a number is assigned to Kaio-ken based on the power it gives, not based on a "level." But the fact that they just in the middle of the fight start switching up the name scheme makes it easy to see why some people get confused.

EDIT: Computer update delayed my post. According to ect5150's scans, the manga is worse. The only way Kaio-ken and x2 could be different is if Goku just didn't exclaim the appropriate level against GInyu (i.e. did an x2 but didn't call it out). This is feasible, since we know in retrospect that by this point Goku doesn't have to call out the technique at all. However, there's little facts to actually support that theory, so we can't go too far with that one.

Ginyu's second estimation of Goku's actual battle strength was "about 85,000." Goku's demonstration the Kaio-ken proves that he was actually 90,000, because 180,000/2 = 90,000.

The scouter actually proves it, you don't really need to calculate. If anything, the base and final power proves the Kaio-ken =x2 point. Check the manga for this one, it's pretty concise. The anime drags out the power up and makes it a little ridiculous. Goku charges for a bit, then Ginyu reads off from 90,000 after awhile- this was pretty much instant in the manga.

Not entirely. Vegeta and Nappa were shocked (particularly by Goku) because "those numbers could just be for starters". Nappa showed on three occasions that he was capable of powering up beyond his base state. Vegeta did once, too.

Yeah, but there must be a difference between power level and available ki reserves. Supposedly the only member of Freeza's army who could mask his full power was Ginyu (and Freeza himself obviously). Nappa sure as hell couldn't. As for noone being able to power up, the Z Senshi were doing it in different ways all the time- they would temporarily amplify their power level in focused bursts (mainly through their ki attacks).

Actually, Vegeta supposedly had a full power of "barely 18,000" on Earth. His base state's battle strength was around that of Goku (using Kaio-ken). I tend to think that he's slightly stronger though.

I don't think this is accurate. Technically speaking, Vegeta's full power would be "slightly stronger" than Goku with Kaio-ken as it is. Somewhere over 8,000 means a Kaio-ken level between 16,000 and 17,000. Yeah, he took Vegeta by surprise, but Vegeta recovered and repelled his attack. Goku himself says before using the Kaio-ken that Vegeta wasn't serious at all. Suddenly Vegeta finds himself going from fighting an opponent vastly below him to fighting one fairly close to his power. I think he took those hits out of surprise, not a lack of strength.