Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

[ABED]

I didn't say it was an emotion, but there are emotions attached to battle scenes and they aren't fun and lighthearted. You have to know what I meant, don't say you don't. Score isn't meant to be analyzed by itself, but how it works in conjunction with the scene. Jesus. This isn't that hard.

Saying something "could be" under this contexts, basically means you're having an interpretation.

No, it means it's dependent on what the scene is trying to convey because it can be applied to any number of battle scenes. It lends itself to numerous emotions one feels for characters during a battle.

And an entire scene with its music, will still often be unclear with what emotions its trying to convey.

Goku's SSJ transformation scene was all about being cool, it wasn't about letting us in on the character's emotional state. Yes, he's angry, but should we feel anxiety about Goku? In the dub, no, it's just "This is awesome!"

[GhostEmperorX]

Found a good quote on why stuff like the Faulconer Team’s OST is quite dated in its own right:

The thing with solid orchestral writing is that it seems to hold up over time much better than whatever electronic sound is currently “in”, which instantly dates the music to the time it was written.

Said by Jamie Christopherson BTW.

[Fionordequester]

Found a good quote on why stuff like the Faulconer Team’s OST is quite dated in its own right:

The thing with solid orchestral writing is that it seems to hold up over time much better than whatever electronic sound is currently “in”, which instantly dates the music to the time it was written.

Said by Jamie Christopherson BTW.

No, I'd say electronic sounds tend to hold up pretty well. There's a reason I still frequently listen to scores from old movies & old NES games, after all.

[GhostEmperorX]

No, I'd say electronic sounds tend to hold up pretty well. There's a reason I still frequently listen to scores from old movies & old NES games, after all.

They still mostly serve as nostalgia pieces for an older period in the past rather than something that transcends said period.

[Fionordequester]

They still mostly serve as nostalgia pieces for an older period in the past rather than something that transcends said period.

It's not nostalgia. I never even got to play most of those old-era NES & SNES games growing up. The PSX and onwards were the consoles I grew up with. It wasn't till I was an adult that I "discovered" how many hidden gems there were lying around in those days.

Even so, I've got a very strong love for the compositions I've listened to across many different old games. I listen to them daily, despite not growing up with them.

[Melee_Sovereign]

I didn't say it was an emotion, but there are emotions attached to battle scenes and they aren't fun and lighthearted. You have to know what I meant, don't say you don't. Score isn't meant to be analyzed by itself, but how it works in conjunction with the scene. Jesus. This isn't that hard.

Battles aren't fun? Goku disagrees.

I don't know what you mean. It was clear from our discussion that we were strictly distilling the emotional content of songs, not things that simply are associated with emotions. Hence your rejection of "coolness". You were quick to point out that it's not an emotion, and that songs should convey emotions. Then I ask you what emotions a certain song conveys, and suddenly it's okay to say it conveys something that's not an emotion.

So no, I don't know what you meant.

No, it means it's dependent on what the scene is trying to convey because it can be applied to any number of battle scenes. It lends itself to numerous emotions one feels for characters during a battle.

Sure. Point still stands that a given track can convey things that are merely associated with emotions like 'coolness' and 'battle' rather than directly conveying emotions themselves.

Goku's SSJ transformation scene was all about being cool, it wasn't about letting us in on the character's emotional state. Yes, he's angry, but should we feel anxiety about Goku? In the dub, no, it's just "This is awesome!"

This is an interpretation. This is how you feel about the scene. Nothing more.

[Fionordequester]

In fact, let's take this a step further. I would argue that sound quality barely means a blasted thing. It's hardly even worth considering. Rather, it's the quality of the compositions themselves that should be considered, over anything else.

For example, a lot of old games that're remade have have different sound teams from the guys that actually made the original soundtrack. As such, I find that while their works use "superior instruments", the songs are still inferior to the "outdated" versions. Or, sometimes, songs from more advanced consoles will be remade for "lesser" consoles, yet will still sound better.

This happens for a variety of reasons. For example...

Dragon Warrior Monsters ~ Fight Against Mireille (Gameboy Color)

Dragon Quest Joker ~ Dr. Snapped (Gameboy DS)

I think this remake is inferior, because the original had a much more consistent tone, and stronger instruments. The new version had instruments that were too soft, and the tone was all over the place. I couldn't tell if it was trying to be energetic and exciting, or dark and ominous (like the original GBC version).

Or, there's also this example...

Mega Man Xtreme 2 ~ Berkana & Gareth Stages (Gameboy Color)

Mega Man X2 ~ Counter Hunter Stage 1 (Super Nintendo)

The main melody was too high pitched and "whiny" in the SNES, which made it kind of grating to listen to. The GBC took that melody and lowered it an octave, which worked out much better. The drums and cymbals also had a significantly fuller, harder sound, despite the restricted number of sound channels. I still don't how exactly they did that, but they were much more impactful than the relatively weak bass instruments in the original SNES version.

In addition, there's also this...

Mega Man X ~ Central Highway (Super Nintendo)

Megaman Maverick Hunter X ~ Central Highway (Playstation Portable)

...and this...

Mega Man X3 ~ Intro Stage (Super Nintendo)

Mega Man X3 ~ Intro Stage (Playstation 1)

Probably the most badly botched of all the examples I posted thus far. It's like the baseline just... completely disappeared in both of these examples. They ARE there, but they're drowned out by the other instruments. You can barely hear them, so it sounds as though the remixers accidentally axed an entire sound channel.

This is why I despise it whenever someone tries to bring up the "it's bad because it's electronic music" argument, as though that somehow automatically makes the Team Faulconer music worse. My experience is that stuff like that barely matters when judging the actual quality of a song. Even two different versions of the same song can be wildly different in quality, just from something as minor as a wrongly chosen instrument, a melody pitched up or down slightly, or incorrectly balanced sound levels.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

EDIT: Not to say that "Old = Better". There are, of course, cases where the updated songs are clearly better. For example...

Kingdom Hearts Chain of Memories OST - Graceful Assassin (Gameboy Advance)

Kingdom Hearts Re:Chain of Memories OST - Graceful Assassin (Playstation 3)

Final Fantasy II - Emperor Battle (NES)

Final Fantasy II - Emperor Battle (GBA)

Yu-Gi-Oh! Dark Duel Stories - Nitemare Theme (Gameboy Color)

Yu-Gi-Oh! Forbidden Memories - Nitemare Theme (Playstation 1)

However, it's not the "superior instruments" that automatically makes them better, in each example. They were better because the compositions themselves were better. Sound quality played a minimal role, at best.

[ABED]

I don't know what you mean. It was clear from our discussion that we were strictly distilling the emotional content of songs, not things that simply are associated with emotions. Hence your rejection of "coolness". You were quick to point out that it's not an emotion, and that songs should convey emotions. Then I ask you what emotions a certain song conveys, and suddenly it's okay to say it conveys something that's not an emotion.

No, you are just so quick to want to score points, you aren't reading my posts. I said the songs were conveying the emotions you would associate with a battle, like anxiety. Also, I wasn't distilling the emotional content of songs. It is clear, but you aren't reading the posts close enough. I reject coolness because it tells us nothing meaningful. The songs in connection with the scene work together to tell the audience something about the story. It's not just the song itself.

This is an interpretation. This is how you feel about the scene. Nothing more.

The atmosphere, blackened sky, the emotion on Goku's face, fear on Gohan and Freeza - all very clearly are telling the audience one thing - this moment is scary. We don't know what the hell is going on and what this means for Goku. This isn't an interpretation. I don't know how much clearer an author could be without outright telling the audience.

[Majin Buu]

Saying it's inadequate is one thing. Saying it's redundant is another.

I've been making the case that's it's both redundant and inadequate, that's why I've been using both words.

So theoretically, a given fiction can convey more meaningful qualities without the need for music?

That's not even theoretical, the Japanese version does that all the time whenever it uses silence to emphasize the drama of a scene.

Plus, the fact that books, comic books, manga, etc. are things that exist that convey meaning without music by their very nature.

Fiction conveying meaning without music is not a theoretical concept.

(And for the record, while I do believe that "more meaning can be conveyed without music" depending on the context, that wasn't really my point to begin with.)

Just Dragon Ball isn't one of them and therefore needs the Japanese tracks?

My point was that an anime adaptation of Dragon Ball with no music period would be very difficult to pull off. Not impossible, but difficult. It's the kind of thing only a supremely talented auteur would be capable of pulling off.

Okay. I guess what you're saying is the "coolness" of Dragon Ball is already obvious, where as other qualities are not and need the aid of music to convey them.

That's what I've been saying the entire time.

I don't think coolness is necessarily less important than other qualities though.

Agree to disagree then.

I think the real problem is, the Faulconer soundtrack specifically is an overall more shallow soundtrack than the Japanese soundtrack. I think this holds true even with Faulconer tracks that attempt to convey things like sadness, drama, seriousness etc... which, it has plenty of those. The Japanese tracks just plainly do it better.

Agreed.

I don't think coolness in the most general sense, is inherently more shallow than these other qualities though. Especially for young kids watching. It can inspire confidence, self-esteem, and motivation in an impressionable youth, and it can do it for adults too.

This is ultimately irrelevant to my point since, again, I think the Falconer score also fails at conveying "coolness" in any context.

[dougo13]

It wasn't just Toei though. Many studios and channels in Japan and outside japan have tossed or locked away stuff so no one can get at it. As such, we have no idea what exists or doesn't anymore. NHK I assume did not keep a lot of productions from the 1960s through the 1980s. I'm trying to preserve as much as I can, especially interview shows as many of the creators, voice actors, etc. have since passed on. TVOntario in Canada destroyed most of their back library in a cost cutting move in the 1980s. Sad to think that I and a handful of others in the province have more old material than that station currently has. Then there were all the old pilot episodes of shows that never made it. They used to air them in summer months for a number of years but there is no video release that I know of. I have a lot of them as a friend recorded many of those shows and gave me his discs when he got out of DVD recording. But I guess something will always be missing. ..

That may be so but when a studio is as big as Toei with many successful properties this stuff shouldn’t be happening. Look at Sunrise and all that they’ve preserved over the years even though they just became their own company in 1977, very few of their big TV shows (like the Gundam series) are languishing in lack of proper material. Same is true of Gainax and even Pierrot. Toei still discarding proper audio even into the 90’s is just inexcusable. Not to mention the fact that they won’t even accept the proper broadcast audio from those of you who have the recordings, even now so it shows that it was never a priority for them.

But it did happen all over the world. In the UK, the BBC destroyed many original tapes and films probably because of lack of storage space or the cost to do so. Toei back in the 1970s and 80s was doing hundreds of episodes of series in a year with limited storage space for everything. Those magnetic audio reels were as big as 16mm film reels. And there was no aftermarket at the time other than limited overseas sales and for that, you don't need the original Japanese audio tracks. Smaller studios might have been able to do it since they released a much more limited number of things in a year. I always wonder what stuff we lost out of Mushi and later Tezuka Pro? They also did quite a few things but again, not in the scale of Toei. NHK, the national broadcaster probably also destroyed things as soon as they were broadcast. All of the specials and some of the series I have seem to be missing or else things like their original audio tracks are gone. Esteban Child of The Sun required a redub with the remaining voice actors and others filling in for people who had died for the DVD release. I have a few of the original cast recordings but that's it. Hopefully the entire thing surfaces in Japan. Here in Canada, the French series Thierry La Fronde was broadcast in the 1960s in English. However, the English recordings were apparently destroyed after the series ended its run. So, only the original French tracks survive. And the Dr. Who series episodes Marco Polo was run in the 1960s but was apparently also destroyed after the airing by both the BBC and the CBC. That one is lost forever it appears. And so it goes...

[Melee_Sovereign]

No, you are just so quick to want to score points, you aren't reading my posts.

I'm not trying to score points. I don't do that. I read what you say, and I respond.

At best, one or both of us is failing to convey what we really mean. But seeing you point out something isn't an emotion, and then point out something that's not an emotion, caused me genuine confusion.

I get it now. You just don't like the word coolness, but 'battle' is acceptable.

It is clear, but you aren't reading the posts close enough.

If you're expecting me to read between the lines, then there's only so much I can try to get out of it. I'm not a mind reader.

The atmosphere, blackened sky, the emotion on Goku's face, fear on Gohan and Freeza - all very clearly are telling the audience one thing - this moment is scary.

You went from saying it's all about being cool, to it's scary. Genuine confusion. Not trying to score points here.

We don't know what the hell is going on and what this means for Goku.

If there's something we don't know, that literally means there's room for interpretation. And it means the audience is going to have a tendency to have an interpretation. We can interpret to a reasonable degree, what is going on with Goku, and what he's feeling. Me? Apart from the more obvious anger, we can interpret a sense of vindictiveness, bloodlust, hatred, a lose of rationale, sadness maybe?

That's an interpretation. And depending on the soundtrack, my interpretation may be different.

[ABED]

You went from saying it's all about being cool, to it's scary. Genuine confusion. Not trying to score points here.

See, this is the sort of thing that makes me think you aren't actually reading my posts close enough. I didn't ever say it was a scene that was about being cool. The dub music conveys that when the scene itself is supposed to be scary because we don't know what the hell is going on. The original score plays up the sense of foreboding.

If there's something we don't know, that literally means there's room for interpretation. And it means the audience is going to have a tendency to have an interpretation. We can interpret to a reasonable degree, what is going on with Goku, and what he's feeling. Me? Apart from the more obvious anger, we can interpret a sense of vindictiveness, bloodlust, hatred, a lose of rationale, sadness maybe?

That's an interpretation. And depending on the soundtrack, my interpretation may be different.

Just because they don't spell it out for you doesn't mean it's an interpretation. It's clear, but it doesn't treat the audience like they're stupid. It's not shocking you saw sadness given he's chocking back sobs after his friend was murdered in front of him.

That's an interpretation. And depending on the soundtrack, my interpretation may be different.

We aren't talking about the audience's interpretation is, we're talking about what the score and the scene are trying to convey.

I'm not trying to score points. I don't do that. I read what you say, and I respond.

At best, one or both of us is failing to convey what we really mean. But seeing you point out something isn't an emotion, and then point out something that's not an emotion, caused me genuine confusion.

Not for a second do I believe you. I've been down this road too many times to believe that to be the case. You merely looked at what I wrote, you didn't actively read. Maybe I could be clearer but I could be the clearest writer in the world and you won't understand. I'm trying one final time and then if you don't get it, I'm done with this. No, coolness isn't an emotion, and I never once claimed battle is an emotion, but there are emotions associated with battle that someone writing a score will want to convey to the audience to help the audience get the emotional state of the characters. Cool is a meaningless evaluation and tells us nothing about what the characters are going through.

[MCDaveG]

It sounds so contemporary, like being done on cheap computers back in the day. It worked for me in Legacy of Goku games, but nowhere else.
Kikuchi sounds like 70's/80's Japanese score and he really progressed. Love his cinematic scores from the last 4 DBZ movies and the TV show.

The whole thing about Faulconer is bad... that 80's like continuous mix, making Dragon Ball this HC outdated action show.
It completely changes atmosphere of the original product. It is like changing John Williams' score in Star Wars for two guys with acid mono synthesizer and playing it in continuous mix.

[Fionordequester]

Team Faulconer is outdated.

I really don't understand this argument, and I made a whole big post explaining why. Could you please tell me what you thought of what I said?

[MCDaveG]

Team Faulconer is outdated.

I really don't understand this argument, and I made a whole big post explaining why. Could you please tell me what you thought of what I said?

Some of the instruments are pretty lo-fi, like Prodigy's Music For The Jilted Generation or first Daft Punk album were in the late 90's.
The mixing feels flat, the sounds are cheap. It sounds like music produced in bedroom studio compared to the original, which was small orchestra. Also, Kikuchi was following the classic composing structure and developing themes.
Falcouner sounds like stock music and there is no breathing room in the actual episodes.

I don't see any factual merits of Faulconer score, outside of nostalgia. But actually, Nathan Johnson did pretty good work on DBZ movies.
It was big departure from the original and haven't felt like pasted stock music https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdSBIiKKdkY
Still, the sound is little cheap, but definitely step-up.

[Melee_Sovereign]

I didn't ever say it was a scene that was about being cool.

Goku's SSJ transformation scene was all about being cool

You did say it.

Page 24, top post.

Just because they don't spell it out for you doesn't mean it's an interpretation. It's clear, but it doesn't treat the audience like they're stupid. It's not shocking you saw sadness given he's chocking back sobs after his friend was murdered in front of him.

Okay, sadness happens to be more clear than the other adjectives I named. I still named vindictiveness, hatred, lose of rationale. Frieza himself might be feeling regret stemming from fear (he might not though).

Not for a second do I believe you. I've been down this road too many times to believe that to be the case.

I'm trying my best to be diplomatic here. If I were trying to score points, I wouldn't be constantly saying "fair enough", or "maybe one or both of us is failing to convey what we mean" meaning I'm considering the possibility that I'm at least partially responsible for our misunderstanding.

You could try doing the same instead of assuming other people are the problem.

Maybe I could be clearer but I could be the clearest writer in the world and you won't understand.

You don't have to be perfectly clear, just non-contradictory.

You say one thing and then you go back on it.

No, coolness isn't an emotion, and I never once claimed battle is an emotion, but there are emotions associated with battle that someone writing a score will want to convey to the audience to help the audience get the emotional state of the characters. Cool is a meaningless evaluation and tells us nothing about what the characters are going through.

Coolness is also associated with emotions. More directly at that, because the word literally pertains to how people feel about something.

[ABED]

I would think it was clear from the rest of the sentence, I was being sarcastic. Given what you know about what I've said in the past on this issue, why would you think I would change my mind. Do you just not understand context?

Yeah no. I get that part. You don't like the word coolness.

I was merely explaining to you where I got genuinely confused. No need to repeat yourself.

Sweet Jesus, it's posts like this that lead me to believe that you are disingenuous. I have nothing against the word. I have something against action and score in film and TV shows with their sole function is to be cool.

Coolness is an evaluation on part of the audience. It's useless for the artist. Battle is an action. It's concrete. Practically all of DB is cool. How is it useful as a direction (for lack of a better word) for a TV score?

[Melee_Sovereign]

I would think it was clear from the rest of the sentence, I was being sarcastic.

Ahhhhh, so that explains it! My mistake. I'll try to be better about noticing your sarcasm for the next time.

Truly sorry.

Sweet Jesus, it's posts like this that lead me to believe that you are disingenuous. I have nothing against the word. I have something against action and score in film and TV shows with their sole function is to be cool.

Coolness is an evaluation on part of the audience. It's useless for the artist.

Yeah, no. That's what I mean. You don't like "general coolness" as a narrative element.

How is it useful as a direction (for lack of a better word) for a TV score?

I feel like I've answered this before, at least indirectly. Regardless of my answer, you disagree. That's fine. You're free to think what you want about the concept of coolness.

[ABED]

Yeah, no. That's what I mean. You don't like "general coolness" as a narrative element.

I haven't a clue what this means.

[Fionordequester]

The mixing feels flat, the sounds are cheap. It sounds like music produced in bedroom studio compared to the original, which was small orchestra. Also, Kikuchi was following the classic composing structure and developing themes.
Falcouner sounds like stock music and there is no breathing room in the actual episodes.

I don't see any factual merits of Faulconer score, outside of nostalgia.

Again you say this, and again I have to wonder what you actually mean.

The Team Faulconer score is one of the most compositionally complex and rich scores you will ever hear. I don't have to musical education to say all the right words, unlike some of the pro-Faulconer musicians I know...

But for example, the end of this song here...

Freeza Dies

Uses some sort of rare music technique. I don't know what it's called, but it's something to do with playing two sounds at the complete opposite ends of the spectrum to create something unique; Something you wouldn't get any other way.

It's something you don't see a lot, and it's used to brilliant effect for the scene it was used for. Where Freeza is being split in two (just like the two halves of that "sound" I mentioned).

The Team Faulconer OST is filled with unique techniques and compositions like those, mainly because unlike most DBZ scores, there was a full blown team handling the songs, not just one guy. Kikuchi, Menza, Johnson, Sumitomo... They were all solo acts, and it's obvious they were solo acts when you compare their work to the Team Faulconer OST (which had THREE highly competent musicians, not just one).

Not only did they cover many different styles, they were also constantly improving on each other's tracks.

For example, this is Vegeta's theme, at all different stages.

Hell's Bells (full theme)

Mike Smith was the original composer, but the part at 0:00-1:00 was all he did. That was all you heard in the show. Then Scott Morgan joined the crew, and added in the guitar lead you hear onwards. In that way, an already great song was improved even further.

Or, for example, this original composition by Mike Smith, from 0:51-1:16 of this video.

Nail vs Freeza

Before Julius Dobos joined the crew, and added several layers to the song...

Krillin Powers Up (Nail vs Freeza remix)

Then one of my personal favorites, the "Spirit Bomb" theme. This one was actually two compositions joined into one. Everything up to 4:12 was Mike Smith, and everything after that was Scott Morgan. Yet, the transition is so seamless...

Again, I don't have the education to say all the right words... But I did not grow up with the Faulconer score. So from the perspective of an unbiased observer, I hear much more complicated, unique, and resonant sounds coming from the Team Faulconer score than I do coming from any other DBZ score.

It's why I went on that long lecture about how better instruments don't mean better compositions. It's why I went to so much trouble posting remixes that were inferior to the original versions.

Your opinions are your opinions, obviously. But PLEASE refrain from the "these electronic sounds are so dated" argument. I don't believe it matters as much as you think it does...