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), Toriyama didn’t remember who Broli was, so I don’t see him pining for over a decade to bring said character back.
I'm all for punching up at the wealthy but this is some shoddy punching that doesn't even aim at anything of substance. Punch up because he evades taxes not because he writes a couple of ideas for a cartoon you don't like.Thunderbird wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:35 pm Lol so even the extremely lazy idea of just bringing back old popular characters wasn't even his own idea.
Toriyama, the creator of Dragon Ball, reduced to just going along with the terrible and lazy ideas given to him by someone else even though he can't even remember who they're referring to.
She/Her Don't forget to take your estrogen! Dr. Wheelo was pretty original.Melee_Sovereign wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:31 pmBroly wasn't brought back due to a lack of ideas. Broly was brought back because he was popular. The same could maybe be argued for Frieza.Thunderbird wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:57 pm
Z had original movie villains, none of the villains were brought back from the series out of a lack of ideas.
And every other Z movie villain besides Broly, was basically some copy of a pre-existing canon villain.
Not really, more breaking down how you are contradictory.Thunderbird wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:43 pmIt wasn't, but we'll move on from that seeing as you feel the need to break every word of my post down into separate points.
But that proves that the mentality is the same. Once they created Broly and Cooler they made 3 movies in which they no longer bothered to create new villains and just brought them back. Even other movies, where they created new villains, weren't that original. Lord Slug and Android 13 are not very original at all. They barely have any personality and their design is meh.In that case, they were still bringing back villains that had been created originally for the movies. Even though they brought Cooler and Broly back they were still original characters.
And yet you said that Super is guilty of bringing back villains twice in movies, Freeza and Broly. So if RoF counts as a "mistake" of Super, then BoG also falls under Super and thus they introduced Beerus and Whis. Otherwise, Super only brought back a previous villain in a movie once.No Resurrection F isn't part of Super but it is still new Dragon Ball.
Since you have empirical evidence and statistics of what you're talking about, I'll concede.Well he isn't that popular, there's no if about it.
He's a Kai, he's not supposed to have a creative design, he's not some special abomination who existed since the dawn of history or was created by the cells of all the greatest warriors in the universe. No other villain achieved immortality aside from Garlic Jr. And his motives are something that no other DB villain had.He's also not that creative, not his design, not his wish for immortality and not his motives.
The Spirit Bomb against Freeza was created from the energy of Namek and the surrunding planet, just like the Spirit Bomb against Buu was created from the energy of an entire planet. There was even a similar dynamic with Piccolo buying time for Goku vs Freeza and Vegeta buying time vs Buu.No it wasn't, the old Spirit Bombs were mostly solitary efforts that resulted in failure. The one against Buu may have been another Spirit Bomb but the way it was formed and executed made it radically different entirely from the one in the Saiyan arc.
Time rings, Super Saiyan Rosé, Super Saiyan Rage, SSB Fusion, Zeno button, the relationship between Angels and Destroyers, and that's off the top of my head. All of which are new elements, even if some were executed badly.What were these new elements in the Trunks arc?
Creating 80 characters, many of which have unique design, personality, and techniques is not creative? 80 mortals + all the deities of said universes, who all have some special personality trait that sets them apart.The other thing isn't that creative
Characters don't need to have 100 additions to have an iconic and good-looking design. Goku Black is proof of that.we've had red Goku, blue Goku, silver Goku, pink Goku with a black gi, Beerus but he's fat, Whis but he's female, a couple badly designed saiyans, a different coloured Frieza, Beerus but he's a rabbit, a completely generic grey alien, Broly but he's wearing an ear etc.
You mean to tell me they're in it for money? I can't believe it.Otherwise he ain't got it no more. I bet even that Broly movie only got made because some producer told him Broly was popular so he figured he'd just go with that.
Akira Toriyama, DBS vol.4 joint interview with ToyotaroAt his core Zamasu is good like Shin, though I guess you could say he was so fastidious that it backfired. But you know, for this "Future Trunks Arc" you had to depict Zamasu and Trunks' inner conflict, right? If this was back when I was drawing the manga myself then I doubt if I could have done it. I mean, I'm not very good at depicting the characters' psychology on the page. So this all came together because now I only have to think up the story. [...] On my own, I doubt I would have been able to express Zamasu's fall to the dark side.
No one cares about that guy.
But that doesn't disprove his point.
You're just waffling. Missing the overall point to break down everything into weak bite sized counter points.SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:59 amNot really, more breaking down how you are contradictory.
Again missing the point, they brought back Frieza in the series, Cell, Vegeta too. That's not the problem, again those were short crappy movies that they rushed out at more than one a year while at the same time still continuing to make the series too, yet they still made new villains.In that case, they were still bringing back villains that had been created originally for the movies. Even though they brought Cooler and Broly back they were still original characters.
Semantics again, it's just the last two movies, the thread isn't specifically about Dragon Ball Super. You can include Beerus and Whis if you want but they still aren't characters that Toriyama came up with and it was still seven years ago.And yet you said that Super is guilty of bringing back villains twice in movies, Freeza and Broly. So if RoF counts as a "mistake" of Super, then BoG also falls under Super and thus they introduced Beerus and Whis. Otherwise, Super only brought back a previous villain in a movie once.
You're over hyping the character out of fanboy bias. Him being a Kai is no excuse, this picture here shows how widely different they can look.He's a Kai, he's not supposed to have a creative design, he's not some special abomination who existed since the dawn of history or was created by the cells of all the greatest warriors in the universe. No other villain achieved immortality aside from Garlic Jr. And his motives are something that no other DB villain had.
Plus the entire extra dynamic of them using humans so that they could finally stand up for themselves for once and the heroes and humanity combined overcoming Buu...which they then did yet again with Zamasu, except worse.The Spirit Bomb against Freeza was created from the energy of Namek and the surrunding planet, just like the Spirit Bomb against Buu was created from the energy of an entire planet.
That's weak. Time Rings are just an alternative for the Time Machine. Pink Super Saiyan Blue which is just Blue Super Saiyan. Super Saiyan Rage....people don't even understand what it is, just a random uncreative looking transformation. Blue Vegito is just the reused Vegito but with blue hair, no more creative than if I said have Ultra Instinct Vegito which would be the same thing with silver hair. Zeno Button...woo.Time rings, Super Saiyan Rosé, Super Saiyan Rage, SSB Fusion, Zeno button, the relationship between Angels and Destroyers, and that's off the top of my head.
Not particularly, of those characters how many truly have a good design? How many have actual interesting abilities? Even Jiren himself didn't have an interesting personality. They were mainly throwaway characters, unmemorable, how many can people even name? It's not hard to make a character and give them a basic ability.Creating 80 characters, many of which have unique design, personality, and techniques is not creative?
So you're saying that they can't make money off of original ideas and characters anymore like what was originally the case back in the manga, they have to bring back old ideas to do that now?You mean to tell me they're in it for money? I can't believe it.
Lol the new Broly movie doesn't have a story either. Two of men Frieza's men find Broly and Paragus, Frieza's like "Lets just go and take them to see Goku and Vegeta" then its like 45 minutes of fighting involving some brain dead retard who does nothing but grunt and scream for the rest of the movie. "Hey Frieza you brought this dangerous being to our planet to kill us and almost destroyed the planet...but I guess you can leave peacefully."At least they tried to make a coherent story with new Broly, the old Broly trilogy literally had no story.
I don't necessarily see that as a good thing. I rather them just reuse an established character than give us a carbon copy.Thunderbird wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:53 pm
But at least they bothered to make new characters, even if it was some movie version of a canon villain
True. He was pretty cool actually. Don't know why he's not more popular.WittyUsername wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:17 amDr. Wheelo was pretty original.Melee_Sovereign wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:31 pmBroly wasn't brought back due to a lack of ideas. Broly was brought back because he was popular. The same could maybe be argued for Frieza.Thunderbird wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:57 pm
Z had original movie villains, none of the villains were brought back from the series out of a lack of ideas.
And every other Z movie villain besides Broly, was basically some copy of a pre-existing canon villain.
Hey honey, how about we not use 'retard' as an insult. Thanks.Thunderbird wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:15 pmLol the new Broly movie doesn't have a story either. Two of men Frieza's men find Broly and Paragus, Frieza's like "Lets just go and take them to see Goku and Vegeta" then its like 45 minutes of fighting involving some brain dead retard who does nothing but grunt and scream for the rest of the movie. "Hey Frieza you brought this dangerous being to our planet to kill us and almost destroyed the planet...but I guess you can leave peacefully."At least they tried to make a coherent story with new Broly, the old Broly trilogy literally had no story.
The only thing even resembling a story was again ideas they had to take from something else, Minus.
She/Her Don't forget to take your estrogen! 
Aside from the fact that half-assing movies is a serious thing, you're again missing the point that bringing back a new character and developing them a lot can be just as good as creating a new character in the first place, if not even better. I'd rather take Super Broly than any of those cheap one-note movie villains like Lord Slug or Android 13.Thunderbird wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:15 pm Again missing the point, they brought back Frieza in the series, Cell, Vegeta too. That's not the problem, again those were short crappy movies that they rushed out at more than one a year while at the same time still continuing to make the series too, yet they still made new villains.
These last two movies, can't even bother to make new villains, despite Toriyama himself being heavily involved, having far more time to work on it and it being the primary focus.
So if the thread isn't specifically about Super, why did you have a problem with me "bringing down Z"?Semantics again, it's just the last two movies, the thread isn't specifically about Dragon Ball Super.
Toriyama basically created the character of Beerus as we know him today, so yes he pretty much created him.You can include Beerus and Whis if you want but they still aren't characters that Toriyama came up with and it was still seven years ago.
Lol, that picture only shows that you don't have a lot of freedom with Kais, because they're all expected to wear the same outfit, have the same hair color and general hair style, and same eyes. And no, Zamasu doesn't look like Shin at all. Their height, clothes, and hairstyle are all different. I can't see how you could mix them. His goals were unique as well. He is the villain, of course he wants to kill the protagonists, name me one villain who doesnt. Yet at the same time he very clearly had different intentions than Freeza, Cell, and Buu.You're over hyping the character out of fanboy bias. Him being a Kai is no excuse, this picture here shows how widely different they can look.
Which they had already done with Freeza, so it wasn't anything original.Plus the entire extra dynamic of them using humans so that they could finally stand up for themselves for once and the heroes and humanity combined overcoming Buu...which they then did yet again with Zamasu, except worse.
How is that a minus? Are alternatives not allowed in a story?That's weak. Time Rings are just an alternative for the Time Machine.
Rosé not only looks very different from Blue, but has a different explanation as well, which ties into Zamasu being a deity. They are not the same form at all.Pink Super Saiyan Blue which is just Blue Super Saiyan.
Most certainly more creative than SS2, which is barely different from SS1. And again, new element introduced by that arc.Super Saiyan Rage....people don't even understand what it is, just a random uncreative looking transformation.
Lol, following that logic SS1 Goku was nothing creative either because it's literally just reused Goku with blonde hair.Blue Vegito is just the reused Vegito but with blue hair
No, between Angels and Destroyers, it's in that arc that it was revealed that Angels are tied to the Destroyers. Iirc, it was already mentioned before the Future Trunks arc that Destroyers and Kais are linked.The relationship between Angels and Destroyers, you sure you don't mean between Kai and Destroyers? A bit of added lore I suppose.
Many of them have unique design and abilities, such as U2 with their love abilities and magical girl transformations. All the universes have their own unique themes and aesthetics. Even the Gods reflect that. The U2 Destroyer loves beauty, or the U3 Kai is a very methodical and sensible person.Not particularly, of those characters how many truly have a good design? How many have actual interesting abilities?
No, I'm saying that there's nothing wrong if they want to make money off of a popular character, since that's what they've been doing since the times of Z.So you're saying that they can't make money off of original ideas and characters anymore like what was originally the case back in the manga, they have to bring back old ideas to do that now?
Funny, I think a lot of people would like that, since King Piccolo and Raditz were beloved villains whom a lot have argued should come back in some way. Raditz for certain, I have seen many people complain how he died at the beginning of Z.Imagine if back after the Frieza arc, Toriyama thought "Nah we won't create this new story involving the Androids, King Piccolo was fairly popular so lets bring him back but make him more powerful than before. The Buu arc? Nah that's too much work, lets brings back Raditz"
Freeza made an alliance with Paragus and Broly because they all wanted revenge on Vegeta and Freeza admired them for their resourcefulness and strength. Also Freeza was brought back by Beerus and Whis after he saved the universe in the ToP, if Gogeta killed him he might have disappointed Beerus and you'd be complaining that they brought him back thrice just to die again on Earth.Lol the new Broly movie doesn't have a story either. Two of men Frieza's men find Broly and Paragus, Frieza's like "Lets just go and take them to see Goku and Vegeta" then its like 45 minutes of fighting involving some brain dead retard who does nothing but grunt and scream for the rest of the movie. "Hey Frieza you brought this dangerous being to our planet to kill us and almost destroyed the planet...but I guess you can leave peacefully."
Akira Toriyama, DBS vol.4 joint interview with ToyotaroAt his core Zamasu is good like Shin, though I guess you could say he was so fastidious that it backfired. But you know, for this "Future Trunks Arc" you had to depict Zamasu and Trunks' inner conflict, right? If this was back when I was drawing the manga myself then I doubt if I could have done it. I mean, I'm not very good at depicting the characters' psychology on the page. So this all came together because now I only have to think up the story. [...] On my own, I doubt I would have been able to express Zamasu's fall to the dark side.
Man I don't understand this massive conception that people have about BoG being "fresh" there is nothing fresh about BoG. The story telling is done almost exactly like Z by having Goku missing to give side cast on screen relevance to which they didn't. The entire middle section of the film is pointless. IGN called it filler and I totally get that. They didn't even introduce the GoD properly that had to be fixed in the retelling by them showing him being GoD before he even goes to Earth. One of the few genuine plot points the film had SSG once achieved lasted barely 5 seconds and the big one the world building.... which is one second of dialogue and the end of the film and people somehow praise an entire film for world building lmao. The "fights" in the film except for Shida's corrected cut were total shit so not like the film has that going for it either.funrush wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:53 pm It's not creatively bankrupt, BoG was totally fresh for the franchise. However the rest of Super likes to redo old villains/ideas or tackle ideas fans have been asking for (eg. Evil Goku). Even this new Moro arc isn't totally new, since Moro as a villain is pretty much King Piccolo meets Cell/Buu.
However there's plenty of new ideas scattered in those arcs. The whole idea of Goku and Vegeta getting new transformations based on their fighting styles for example. Zeno and the organization of Angels. Plenty of new stuff for them to build off of for future arcs.
He came up with the Beerus as we know him. The original concept of Beerus is so different that you might as well consider him a different character.ABED wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:23 pm I don't think Toriyama came up with Whis and Beerus, but aren't they very different in the movies and Super than how they were conceived?
It's not a plot driven film, but it's so much fun, it's like hanging out with friends you haven't seen in years.Baggie_Saiyan wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:06 pmMan I don't understand this massive conception that people have about BoG being "fresh" there is nothing fresh about BoG. The story telling is done almost exactly like Z by having Goku missing to give side cast on screen relevance to which they didn't. The entire middle section of the film is pointless. IGN called it filler and I totally get that. They didn't even introduce the GoD properly that had to be fixed in the retelling by them showing him being GoD before he even goes to Earth. One of the few genuine plot points the film had SSG once achieved lasted barely 5 seconds and the big one the world building.... which is one second of dialogue and the end of the film and people somehow praise an entire film for world building lmao. The "fights" in the film except for Shida's corrected cut were total shit so not like the film has that going for it either.funrush wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:53 pm It's not creatively bankrupt, BoG was totally fresh for the franchise. However the rest of Super likes to redo old villains/ideas or tackle ideas fans have been asking for (eg. Evil Goku). Even this new Moro arc isn't totally new, since Moro as a villain is pretty much King Piccolo meets Cell/Buu.
However there's plenty of new ideas scattered in those arcs. The whole idea of Goku and Vegeta getting new transformations based on their fighting styles for example. Zeno and the organization of Angels. Plenty of new stuff for them to build off of for future arcs.
BoG is such a piece trash I genuinely hate it more than Evolution.
