After all these years, I hear that Frieza's PL was wrong?

[Arcwave]

A little off topic... but what ever happened to Planet-Namek.com? Do the people of that website come here? What happened to the creators?

[ect5150]

Vegeta is barely 18,000.

Seriously, where do we get 18,000 from? Flipping back through the manga, I see no mention of that number.

[Herms]

Vegeta is barely 18,000.

Seriously, where do we get 18,000 from? Flipping back through the manga, I see no mention of that number.

Zarbon mentions it after Vegeta kills Kyui, in response to Dodoria's scouter showing him as 24,000. I believe the 'barely' is a slight addition on Viz's part though.

[JulieYBM]

I would like to say first and foremost that the preceding has been really informative, especially the 'Kaiô-Ken and double are one in the same', and if Vegeta really was once at 18,000 then of course the double/regular Kaiô-Ken (doubling Son up to 16,000) had no chance of wining. Also, was not it claimed that Ôzaru multiplied one’s power by 100? I’ve seen—and granted I have no way of proclaiming such things as fact—that Ôzaru Vegeta had a reading of 180,000. Can anybody more knowledgeable confirm this?

[Onikage725]

I would like to say first and foremost that the preceding has been really informative, especially the 'Kaiô-Ken and double are one in the same', and if Vegeta really was once at 18,000 then of course the double/regular Kaiô-Ken (doubling Son up to 16,000) had no chance of wining. Also, was not it claimed that Ôzaru multiplied one’s power by 100? I’ve seen—and granted I have no way of proclaiming such things as fact—that Ôzaru Vegeta had a reading of 180,000. Can anybody more knowledgeable confirm this?

It multiplies by 10, not 100. So technically, his max in that state would have maxed out at 180,000. Then again, he also had his clocked cleaned by Goku with Kaio-ken x3, fired a massive Garlic Gun, and ate a face full of Kaio-ken x4-fueled Kamehameha. So his power had dropped before he made the change. It isn't really known if the transformation would restore him to his maximum (kinda like how in animorphs, when they changed form they healed due to their dna code being re-written). That's just speculation on my part.

[Tyro]

Yeah, it does. Facts for my argument are as follows (and are strictly dependent upon the translations here):

[snip]

As you can see here, I don't believe the translation of the title for the following chapter is correct. That, or VIZ went with their own title. All I'm basing this on is that there isn't a "2" in the title.

[snip]

Here Goku clearly states using twice the Kaio-ken is not enough (as opposed to referencing "Kaio-ken" is not enough).

Before the actual reply. Herms, could you give us a literal translation of this please? Just want to see how it differs from the VIZ translation.

I don't think that did anything to their actual ki output. It was just a focusing of power. Like the difference between someone who's just throwing punches and someone who's trying to beat the crap out of you with all their might.

Nappa did indeed power up. Again, three times this is shown. Here, here, and here.

Piccolo's response to Nappa's first power up (because a "focusing of power" wouldn't register to anyone as an increase of ki) was "I never thought...it would be so much...!!!!" In fact, everyone was shocked at how much ki Nappa was now putting out.

Upon Nappa's second power up, he says to Goku "So what can you tell...from this.......?!"

Third power up, Nappa was keeping up with Goku. "Yeah~! That was much better!" Going from "you can't win" to "this could last forever." From batting Nappa around to being practically equal. If "focusing your ki" was all Nappa had to do, it would have been even the first time, because he was already trying as hard as possible to hit Goku. Even then, "focusing your ki" wouldn't require him to hunch over and yell as if he were powering up, just a "full effort" on his part.

No, that's barely even 1.5 million. Minor differences in number = big difference in actual power. It's like the celsius scale. 88 is a lot more than 80.

Most lists have Freeza's base around 3,000,000 - 4,000,000, making Vegeta 2,000,000 - 3,000,000. Even by your list that's in the upper parts of 1,000,000. Most tend to take Freeza's transformations and statement of "my power increases hugely each time I transform" as a bigger increase than you give.

The scouter actually proves it, you don't really need to calculate. If anything, the base and final power proves the Kaio-ken =x2 point. Check the manga for this one, it's pretty concise. The anime drags out the power up and makes it a little ridiculous. Goku charges for a bit, then Ginyu reads off from 90,000 after awhile- this was pretty much instant in the manga.

Yes, the scouter reads 90,000 while Goku is beginning to power up. Not his base state. Ginyu estimates Goku's actual base to be "about 85,000". I'm afraid I don't see your point.

Nappa sure as hell couldn't. As for noone being able to power up, the Z Senshi were doing it in different ways all the time- they would temporarily amplify their power level in focused bursts (mainly through their ki attacks).

It looks to me like he did. Three times in fact.

I agree with the second part though.

I don't think this is accurate. Technically speaking, Vegeta's full power would be "slightly stronger" than Goku with Kaio-ken as it is. Somewhere over 8,000 means a Kaio-ken level between 16,000 and 17,000. Yeah, he took Vegeta by surprise, but Vegeta recovered and repelled his attack. Goku himself says before using the Kaio-ken that Vegeta wasn't serious at all. Suddenly Vegeta finds himself going from fighting an opponent vastly below him to fighting one fairly close to his power. I think he took those hits out of surprise, not a lack of strength.

I believe you misunderstand me. I believe Vegeta's base state to be slightly stronger than Goku's Kaio-ken battle strength. This is shown in the scans I posted in my reply to Rocketman. Then he powers up to full power, making him quite a bit stronger than Goku with the Kaio-ken. "Barely 18,000" compared to mid 16,000.

[JulieYBM]

I would like to say first and foremost that the preceding has been really informative, especially the 'Kaiô-Ken and double are one in the same', and if Vegeta really was once at 18,000 then of course the double/regular Kaiô-Ken (doubling Son up to 16,000) had no chance of wining. Also, was not it claimed that Ôzaru multiplied one’s power by 100? I’ve seen—and granted I have no way of proclaiming such things as fact—that Ôzaru Vegeta had a reading of 180,000. Can anybody more knowledgeable confirm this?

It multiplies by 10, not 100. So technically, his max in that state would have maxed out at 180,000. Then again, he also had his clocked cleaned by Goku with Kaio-ken x3, fired a massive Garlic Gun, and ate a face full of Kaio-ken x4-fuled Kamehameha. So his power had dropped before he made the change. It isn't really known if the transformation would restore him to his maximum (kinda like how in animorphs, when they changed form they healed due to their dna code being re-written). That's just speculation on my part.

Being the incredible--and tired--idiot that I am, I said one hundred because I remember Son's power level from the begining being touted as that. As for Vegeta, I doubt it matters because at that point his large body would be able to beat the stuffing out of a puny little [and tired] Gokû.

[Xyex]

Seriously, where do we get 18,000 from? Flipping back through the manga, I see no mention of that number.

Zarbon states that Vegeta was barely 18,000 when he went to Earth.

I would like to say first and foremost that the preceding has been really informative, especially the 'Kaiô-Ken and double are one in the same', and if Vegeta really was once at 18,000 then of course the double/regular Kaiô-Ken (doubling Son up to 16,000) had no chance of wining. Also, was not it claimed that Ôzaru multiplied one’s power by 100? I’ve seen—and granted I have no way of proclaiming such things as fact—that Ôzaru Vegeta had a reading of 180,000. Can anybody more knowledgeable confirm this?

x10, not x100. But yeah. Oozaru Vegeta was, if at full power, technically the second strongest person in the universe. Shows you why the Saiya-jins were so valuable to Freeza~

Nappa did indeed power up.

I know about that scene and I still don't consider that a 'power-up' of the same vien as others we see, such as Krillin and Gohan's power-up against Guldo. More explanation to come.

Piccolo's response to Nappa's first power up (because a "focusing of power" wouldn't register to anyone as an increase of ki) was "I never thought...it would be so much...!!!!" In fact, everyone was shocked at how much ki Nappa was now putting out.

I think I phrased my previous post a little wrong. I don't mean so much a state of mind as a state of focus. Somewhat different things. If they were the same, and it were as you suggest, then Radtiz's scouter wouldn't have noted increasing powers from Goku and Piccolo's attacks. That's the kind of focus I mean.

Even then, "focusing your ki" wouldn't require him to hunch over and yell as if he were powering up, just a "full effort" on his part.

I don't know, Goku and Piccolo had to put considerable effort into boosting the power of their attacks. I think in the case of Nappa it was just him drawing out all his latent power and focusing his strength. But I don't think this particular kind of focus would alter readings on scouters since that was something completely knew to the Saiya-jins and to most of Freeza's men.

Most lists have Freeza's base around 3,000,000 - 4,000,000, making Vegeta 2,000,000 - 3,000,000. Even by your list that's in the upper parts of 1,000,000. Most tend to take Freeza's transformations and statement of "my power increases hugely each time I transform" as a bigger increase than you give.

That's because most people suffer from Power Washout™ and fail to realize that at this level a few hundred thousand points is a huge amount of power.

[Herms]

As you can see here, I don't believe the translation of the title for the following chapter is correct. That, or VIZ went with their own title. All I'm basing this on is that there isn't a "2" in the title.

Yeah, the next chapter title is "The super decisive battle of fate!" (which is also the name of volume 19). Viz generally just goes with their own chapter titles as often as not.

Before the actual reply. Herms, could you give us a literal translation of this please? Just want to see how it differs from the VIZ translation.

“Even with the double Kaio-ken I can’t keep up with him…”

[Onikage725]

Nappa did indeed power up. Again, three times this is shown. Here, here, and here.

Piccolo's response to Nappa's first power up (because a "focusing of power" wouldn't register to anyone as an increase of ki) was "I never thought...it would be so much...!!!!" In fact, everyone was shocked at how much ki Nappa was now putting out.

Upon Nappa's second power up, he says to Goku "So what can you tell...from this.......?!"

Third power up, Nappa was keeping up with Goku. "Yeah~! That was much better!" Going from "you can't win" to "this could last forever." From batting Nappa around to being practically equal. If "focusing your ki" was all Nappa had to do, it would have been even the first time, because he was already trying as hard as possible to hit Goku. Even then, "focusing your ki" wouldn't require him to hunch over and yell as if he were powering up, just a "full effort" on his part.

I agree with Xyex on this. I too am familiar with the scenes (and with Vegeta's ki charge later on). It was shown many times that masking one's true power (i.e. clocking in lower on a scouter than what you should) was anathema to Freeza an co. Cpt. Ginyu pretty much claims himself the only one in the army able to even do it. It would defeat the entire purpose of this entire subplot if everyone and their brothers were doing it the entire time.
The best explanation I can think of is that there is a difference between battle power/power level and available ki. There are also different ways to expend one's available ki. So, for example, against Goku, Nappa starts off attcking in blind rage and gets nowhere. Vegeta tells him to calm down and fight with his head. In a real life situation I call this fighting cold as opposed to fighting hot. Nappa was a better fighter when cold, but had allowed himself to get angry and lose focus. He re-focuses, draws some ki to himself, and expends it in what seems to be an augmentation of his body, and sudenly he's doing better. I think it's a mistake to say he was on par with Goku though. The only blow he lands in the entire fight is one Goku lets him hit, and Goku doesn't have much trouble deflecting Nappa's best technique (which surprises even Vegeta).

Yes, the scouter reads 90,000 while Goku is beginning to power up. Not his base state. Ginyu estimates Goku's actual base to be "about 85,000". I'm afraid I don't see your point.

Do...we care what Ginyu's best guess was? 85,000x2 = 170,000. So clearly Ginyu was off by 5k. My point is that this flows pretty well in the manga. Goku had been supressing the entire time, well below 90k. He says Kaio-ken. He first shoots to his max of 90k, and Ginyu's scouter blips and we get this reading. Then he begins to go up to the full 180,000. In the anime, as a way of drawing out the scene via filler, their is a decent amount of time between when Goku activates Kaio-ken and when the scouter registers 90k. But we know through calculation, as you yourself said, that 90k was his base maximum. So why is this even in debate that the scouter reading of 90k was his base?

I believe you misunderstand me. I believe Vegeta's base state to be slightly stronger than Goku's Kaio-ken battle strength. This is shown in the scans I posted in my reply to Rocketman. Then he powers up to full power, making him quite a bit stronger than Goku with the Kaio-ken. "Barely 18,000" compared to mid 16,000.

Ok, I understand you better. I still disagree, just based on the same reasoning I used for Nappa above.

EDIT: Though, having slept on the issue, I do think there is one thing no one has mentioned- Vegeta COULD focus his ki into an energy-based attack, similar to the Z Senshi. We can tell from Raditz's comments that this wasnt a common ability, but Vegeta did go from being inferior to Goku's Kaio-ken x3 to requiring KK x4 to handle. The only other possible explanation is that Goku's body was so tired that it just took the x4 to exceed 18k (like if his maximum had slipped to 5k due to the stress of battle).

[Velasa]

A little off topic... but what ever happened to Planet-Namek.com? Do the people of that website come here? What happened to the creators?

PN passed on, a long time ago, because they couldn;t afford the money or time to keep the domain up anymore. I don't know where they went after that. The site is still dearly missed.

Was it Skull and Kain in charge? Or were they just in charge of the Gundam board...

[ect5150]

Vegeta is barely 18,000.

Seriously, where do we get 18,000 from? Flipping back through the manga, I see no mention of that number.

Zarbon mentions it after Vegeta kills Kyui, in response to Dodoria's scouter showing him as 24,000. I believe the 'barely' is a slight addition on Viz's part though.

I'm not too familiar with that part of the series. If the scouter shows 24,000, are we assuming that Vegeta powered up from the battle with Goku? Also, isn't he surpressing his Ki somewhat there? I mean, afterall, doesn't he kill Dodoria right afterwards (I can't remember Dodo's power level).

Eh... once you consider anyone may have been suppressing the powerlevel, I think the arguments and logic go right out the window because we can't get ahold of actual facts, its just conjecture.


- Note to whomever - I thought Viz was doing literal translations, knowing the literal translation of the "next chapter" may change things... good point.

[Herms]

I'm not too familiar with that part of the series. If the scouter shows 24,000, are we assuming that Vegeta powered up from the battle with Goku? Also, isn't he surpressing his Ki somewhat there? I mean, afterall, doesn't he kill Dodoria right afterwards (I can't remember Dodo's power level).

OK, here's how it goes: Vegeta powers up before Kyui; Zarbon's scouter explodes, but Dodoria's reads him as being 24,000. Zarbon says this is impossible, as Vegeta is supposed to be 18,000 (the first and only time this was mentioned). Later when Vegeta fights Dodoria, he explains that his new power is due to him almost dieing on Earth (the whole Saiyan healing power up factor).

Dodoria isn't given a specific battle power in the series, but Zarbon says that if Vegeta is 24,000 his battle power is stronger than theirs (presumably without taking Zarbon's tranformation into account). Also Dodoria thinks very little of Vegeta, and Vegeta himself is surprised at how easily he kills Dodoria. So the thinking goes that he'd be higher than 18,000 but lower than 24,000. I believe Daizenshuu 7's bio of him says that his battle power was "around 22,000".

"Even" isn't really a good translation. The word used is hitteki-suru, which means "come near" or "rank with" (see herefor more). The full of what Nappa says about the Saibaimen is then "Going just by power, they're comparable to Raditz".

Still doesn't make a difference. The two figures weren't comparable. According to the Daizenshuu, wasn't Yamcha at 1400 and change? Under their listing for Raditz, and he owns a Saibaiman. Likewise, they list Piccolo and Nappa as being a "mere" 500 points apart, but the difference between them in the fight was vast. I highly doubt a fighter as experienced in both combat and scouter use as Nappa would fail to know the difference. So that brings me back to Daizenshuu error. And with the ensuing discussion, I'm still not sure where we stand on this one

Well, Nappa does say "going just by power", so maybe Raditz's intelligence adds a few hundred onto his battle power or something? Anyway, my main point was just that there's no reason to think he'd be exactly 1,200, which is the impression Viz leaves.

But there is something interesting I remembered/realized: the SNES game Legend of the Super Saiyan uses battle powers straight from the series as the basis for its RPG system (I haven't played the game myself, so I'm not quite sure how the mechanic work, but I believe a character's battle power serves as their HP?). Vegeta is 18,000, Ginyu is 120,000, and so on. And what do they use for Raditz and Nappa? 1,500 and 4,000, like Daizenshuu 7 says. Except Legend of the Super Saiyan came out in 1992, while Daizenshuu 7 came out in 1996. So apparently 4 years before Daizenshuu 7 came out, some of its 'new' battle powers had been decided upon in some way. I'm not saying that's a reason to except them (after all, the game pegs Freeza and SSJ Goku at 4 and 6 million, so its not in complete alignment with Daiz 7), but its interesting that those battle powers for Raditz and Nappa have a history that goes back awhile.

[Rocketman]

Well, Nappa does say "going just by power", so maybe Raditz's intelligence adds a few hundred onto his battle power or something? .

I think it's not that intelligence adds to one's power level, but that even the Saiyans understand that intelligence makes one a better fighter, even if numerically, they're equal or a bit weaker, like when Nappa does his 'blind rage' and Vegeta yells at him to keep his head straight.

Of course, they also understand that past a certain difference in power, intelligence doesn't really matter (re: Oozaru), but that it always helps (re: Vegeta Oozaru).

[Xyex]

I'm not too familiar with that part of the series. If the scouter shows 24,000, are we assuming that Vegeta powered up from the battle with Goku? Also, isn't he surpressing his Ki somewhat there? I mean, afterall, doesn't he kill Dodoria right afterwards (I can't remember Dodo's power level).

Eh... once you consider anyone may have been suppressing the powerlevel, I think the arguments and logic go right out the window because we can't get ahold of actual facts, its just conjecture.

As Herms said Vegeta powered up to take out Kui. He hit 22 or 23 thousand and Dodoria's scouter exploded so Zarbon checked his and found Vegeta at 24,000. He said that wasn't possible since he was only supposed to be 18,000.

Dodoria expresses concern at this, as does Zarbon, cause Vegeta is now stronger than them. Freeza says it wont be a problem if they fight him together. Course, they don't, and Dodoria's blasted with ease and Zarbon's forced to transform to deal with him~

But there is something interesting I remembered/realized: the SNES game Legend of the Super Saiyan uses battle powers straight from the series as the basis for its RPG system (I haven't played the game myself, so I'm not quite sure how the mechanic work, but I believe a character's battle power serves as their HP?). Vegeta is 18,000, Ginyu is 120,000, and so on. And what do they use for Raditz and Nappa? 1,500 and 4,000, like Daizenshuu 7 says. Except Legend of the Super Saiyan came out in 1992, while Daizenshuu 7 came out in 1996. So apparently 4 years before Daizenshuu 7 came out, some of its 'new' battle powers had been decided upon in some way. I'm not saying that's a reason to except them (after all, the game pegs Freeza and SSJ Goku at 4 and 6 million, so its not in complete alignment with Daiz 7), but its interesting that those battle powers for Raditz and Nappa have a history that goes back awhile.

It also has Kui at 18,000 and Dodoria at... crap, I can't remember now. 20,000 I believe, and Zarbon at 22,000 I think. And no, their PL/BP serves as the 'base' level for their defensive and offensive power, augmented by the Attack and Defense level of the card you use. HP and Ki are seperate numbers.

[Adamant]

The old Famicom games also used power levels from the series. The battles in the first game were really hard because of this, since the villains were always much stronger than the heroes, but since the opposite was mostly true in the freeza saga, the battles in the sequel are pretty damn easy.

For DBZ2 (Famicom), the following levels are used for the villains:
Kewi: 19000
Dodoria: 22000
Zarbon: 23000
Zarbon form 2: 55000
Ghurd: 19000
Reacoom: 71000
Jeese: 64000
Burtta: 68000
Ginyu: 160000
Freeza: 530000

The game doesn't let you see the Battle power of Freeza's later forms.

[Onikage725]

Well, Nappa does say "going just by power", so maybe Raditz's intelligence adds a few hundred onto his battle power or something? Anyway, my main point was just that there's no reason to think he'd be exactly 1,200, which is the impression Viz leaves.

On the one hand, I think intelligence is the one that that doesn't impact power, at least not directly. Otherwise Piccolo would have floored Nappa.
And my point with Raditz is that 1200 or so is what is best supported in the series, as evidenced by the fact that attacks just over 1300 placed him in mortal peril. Heck, even Goku's kamehameha caused him to actually get serious for a minute. There's nothing there to support him having a PL of 1500.

As for the SFC game, I did always find their systems and numbers interesting (especially that crazy max powerup you get if you bother to level everyone to their last possible level).

The main bad guys (not gonna bother posting the random enemies, though the green variety of Saibaiman is 1200) are like this-

Raditz: 1,500
Nappa: 4,000
Vegeta: 18,000
Kiwi: 18,000
Dodoria: 22,,000
Zarbon: 23,000/30,000 transformed
Rikum: 65,000
Gurudo: 13,500
Jiisu: 64,000
Baata: 62,500
Ginew: 120,000
Freeza(stage 1): 530,000
Freeza(stage 2): 1,000,000
Freeza(stage 3): 1,550,000
Freeza(stage 4): Unknown, probably 3-4,000,000

The main characters increase in power throughout the game obvioously. I'll put their beginning and highest possible power (not counting things like using the Kaio-sama card or Kaio-ken). If they have 3 listings, this is basically their standard max and the crazy jump for last level.

Goku: 416/260,090/4,999,999 (the middle figure is max normal, which will be MUCH higher since you'll be using Kaio-ken x10, and the last figure is SSJ)
Piccolo: 408/1,017,000/2,000,000 (if you fuse with Dende and 2 random warriors before the end fight)
Gohan: 600/227,300/985,550
Kuririn: 1,080/165,000/950,000
Yamucha: 1,025/160,000/930,000
Tenshinhan: 1,095/171,301/933,301
Chaozu: 725/127,995/799,995
Vegeta: 32,000/87,7831/1,224,995/6,000,000 (Super Saiyan, as secret final boss)
Dende: 10
Tsumari and Maima: 3,200 and 3,300 (two Namekians who join for awhile- can not increase PL)
Nail: 42,000
There's also a way to play as Cpt. Ginyu by keeping someone he switches with healthy and out of the rest of the fight. His stats are based on who he changed with, but he gains a good amount from level up and can use body switch on enemies (including Freeza). I dont really know the possible ranges for this PL, but its not important I guess.

[DemonKingPiccolo]

And where does the idea come from that Final Form Freeza was at 1% or whatever of his true power?

That was in the Funi dub; when in the original audio and manga, he said he was only using a "fraction". He never specified what that fraction was though.

[Xyex]

And where does the idea come from that Final Form Freeza was at 1% or whatever of his true power?

That was in the Funi dub; when in the original audio and manga, he said he was only using a "fraction". He never specified what that fraction was though.

Wasn't that dub line during the 50% Freeza Vs. SSJ Goku battle, though? I think Rocketman's more refering to 3,000,000 start to 120,000,000 maximum (which puts the power he kicked Vegeta's ass with at 2.5% of his maximum).

[Rocketman]

Wasn't that dub line during the 50% Freeza Vs. SSJ Goku battle, though? I think Rocketman's more refering to 3,000,000 start to 120,000,000 maximum (which puts the power he kicked Vegeta's ass with at 2.5% of his maximum).

Referring to both or neither, actually, just whichever explains where that came from.

And that is a major reason why I disregard the Daizenshuu's numbers. Freeza blew up their planet because he was afraid of the Saiyans, but the strongest Saiyans in history (over two thousand times stronger than the 'average' Saiyan and over two hundred times stronger than the Saiyan prodigies like Bardock) barely get over 1% of his full power?