Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Miracles
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:07 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:03 pm
CortoMaltese wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:27 am
So Gohan + C17 + Piccolo + C18 + Jaco are just some ants for a Saganbo restrained !
The Same Saganbo now at 100% is an ant against a restrained Goku BLUE !!!!

We knew Gohan has trained hard during several month between the TOP and now, so he follow the same road than Goku with same evolution !
And we know that Gohan can easily surpass his Buu Level in only few hours !
Even if Goku's training is more efficient (6month), it's now pretty clear Gohan and C17 have never been in SSBLUE tier in DBSUPER MANGA.

It's pretty clear Gohan need a new transformation to be relevant now !
Wouldn't Kefla at least be Blue-tier?
Yes Kefla was. People don't get it...Power escalates in DB...Saganbo is just stronger than TOP Kefla/Gohan.
Since this current Gohan; who only got stronger after the TOP, is no comparison to Saganbo.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by CortoMaltese » Thu Mar 19, 2020 5:30 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:03 pm
CortoMaltese wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:27 am
So Gohan + C17 + Piccolo + C18 + Jaco are just some ants for a Saganbo restrained !
The Same Saganbo now at 100% is an ant against a restrained Goku BLUE !!!!

We knew Gohan has trained hard during several month between the TOP and now, so he follow the same road than Goku with same evolution !
And we know that Gohan can easily surpass his Buu Level in only few hours !
Even if Goku's training is more efficient (6month), it's now pretty clear Gohan and C17 have never been in SSBLUE tier in DBSUPER MANGA.

It's pretty clear Gohan need a new transformation to be relevant now !
Wouldn't Kefla at least be Blue-tier?
Kefla of the TOP ?
Definitly not Blue tier, fusion doesn't restore energy.
Caulilfa was weakened by Golden Frieza and Kale was knockout by U11 team (same guys beated by Goku SSJ)....
So the fusion is the result of 2 warriors vastly inferior to SSJ Goku, so Kefla of the TOP is far far from Blue Tier !

Kefla with Caulifla and Kale at 100% ?
Yes definitely SSBLUE tier

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:51 pm

^But Vados said Kefla's power was among the best in the TOP IIRC? There is no hint of them fusing fatigue/weakened at all.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:03 pm

I think Kafla and Gohan’s placements in the Jiren Arc weren’t definitive, since Vados said that Kafla could be unmatched and there was no hint that Kale’s bad condition held her back (which should be pointed out if that was the case). And Krillin wondered if Gohan could surpass Goku. So, it seems there wasn’t a clear situation of Blue tier in the first place. Though, we can assume Goku got a lot stronger during his training with Merus.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by CortoMaltese » Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:35 pm

Well Vados say by combining they respective strengths, Kefla MAY BE unmatched.
Caulifla strength is his sense for battle, Kale strength is pure strength but without control.
I mean, it's the first time everybody see Kefla so Vados theorize how a fusion of the 2 girls COULD BE.

But with the fights against Zamasu and Broly, we know weakened warriors needs senzu, so fusion doesn't restore energy.
So Kefla in the TOP is the result of two warriors very weakened, she's clearly far from 100%.
But at 100%, i think she's SSBLUE level.

It's the inconsistencies of the TOP Manga.
Krilin is just impressed that Gohan surpass his form of the past in only few hours so he's asking if Gohan can surpass Goku one day with concentrate only on training.
So he's not yet as strong as SSBLUE !
Like Roshi that appear really strong against Kahseral or Jiren, with the Moro arc we finally know he's far from Goku's base...
It's sadly the problem of this part, the writing and the executing aren't the best....

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kagari » Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:43 pm

CortoMaltese wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:27 am
So Gohan + C17 + Piccolo + C18 + Jaco are just some ants for a Saganbo restrained !
The Same Saganbo now at 100% is an ant against a restrained Goku BLUE !!!!

We knew Gohan has trained hard during several month between the TOP and now, so he follow the same road than Goku with same evolution !
And we know that Gohan can easily surpass his Buu Level in only few hours !
Even if Goku's training is more efficient (6month), it's now pretty clear Gohan and C17 have never been in SSBLUE tier in DBSUPER MANGA.

It's pretty clear Gohan need a new transformation to be relevant now !
Except Goku straight up says 17 was on their level and Piccolo says Gohan is the strongest on Earth in Goku and Vegeta's absence so... The reality is Toyo vaulted up the power ceiling again haphazardly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:23 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:03 pm
Though, we can assume Goku got a lot stronger during his training with Merus.
I usually hesitate to discuss chapters before they're officially released, but yeah, the translated spoilers mention that "Piccolo notices Goku's Blue form is stronger than before".

As a transformation, Blue has constantly improved throughout the manga through various means. Strictly speaking, there's no static boost for it. In the best case scenario, Gohan and 17 can be anywhere from the bottom to the middle of that range. Saganbo is stronger than them, and new-and-improved Blue Goku is stronger than Saganbo.

In terms of mortal strength, Jiren could still easily stand above Saganbo and current Blue Goku. I'd bet money that's the case; it took a completed Ultra Instinct to give him serious trouble, and even then he outlasted it. "Evolved" Blue Vegeta might be somewhere around current Blue Goku's level as well.

Notwithstanding Moro, I wouldn't say the power ceiling has been raised significantly (if at all) from what it was in the Universe Survival arc. Or, if by "power ceiling" people just mean Goku, obviously the story is going to make him stronger than the supporting cast.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by CortoMaltese » Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:40 am

Kagari wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:43 pm
CortoMaltese wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:27 am
So Gohan + C17 + Piccolo + C18 + Jaco are just some ants for a Saganbo restrained !
The Same Saganbo now at 100% is an ant against a restrained Goku BLUE !!!!

We knew Gohan has trained hard during several month between the TOP and now, so he follow the same road than Goku with same evolution !
And we know that Gohan can easily surpass his Buu Level in only few hours !
Even if Goku's training is more efficient (6month), it's now pretty clear Gohan and C17 have never been in SSBLUE tier in DBSUPER MANGA.

It's pretty clear Gohan need a new transformation to be relevant now !
Except Goku straight up says 17 was on their level and Piccolo says Gohan is the strongest on Earth in Goku and Vegeta's absence so... The reality is Toyo vaulted up the power ceiling again haphazardly.
Like with Kefla, Toyotaro use a vague term with C17...
Goku say he's "SOMEHOW" just about as strong as him, so we need to explain the context..
I think he talk about the capacity of C17 to survive until the end of the TOP, after all he's the MVP.

For Moro's arc, yeah Gohan is strong, pretty strong.
Goku himself say he hardly recognize him, meaning he's far stronger now !
Sadly, Piccolo imply now, the Gap between Z warriors (including Gohan) and Goku has never been so big....

The worst part for Gohan's character is that Vegeta have now everything Gohan had in the past, wrath boost, new forms, dormant potential (confirmed by Yardrat)...
I think the main problem is just Toyotaro trying to give logic after all the inconsistencies of the TOP.
In term of writing and executing, the Moro's arc is FAR FAR BETTER.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by MechaTrunks » Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:51 am

Miracles wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:07 pm
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:03 pm
CortoMaltese wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:27 am
So Gohan + C17 + Piccolo + C18 + Jaco are just some ants for a Saganbo restrained !
The Same Saganbo now at 100% is an ant against a restrained Goku BLUE !!!!

We knew Gohan has trained hard during several month between the TOP and now, so he follow the same road than Goku with same evolution !
And we know that Gohan can easily surpass his Buu Level in only few hours !
Even if Goku's training is more efficient (6month), it's now pretty clear Gohan and C17 have never been in SSBLUE tier in DBSUPER MANGA.

It's pretty clear Gohan need a new transformation to be relevant now !
Wouldn't Kefla at least be Blue-tier?
Yes Kefla was. People don't get it...Power escalates in DB...Saganbo is just stronger than TOP Kefla/Gohan.
Since this current Gohan; who only got stronger after the TOP, is no comparison to Saganbo.
No, Kefla WASN'T!
Kefla was much weaker than most of people think, at least in the manga, because she was the product of a fusion between two very injured and weakened fighters.
His power at that point being at the same level as Mystic Gohan is credible. Still enough to beat the weakest fighters on Jiren's team, at the same level of serious Gohan, MUCH BELOW any SSJGod form in strength.

Regrds.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:00 am

MechaTrunks wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:51 am
Kefla was much weaker than most of people think, at least in the manga, because she was the product of a fusion between two very injured and weakened fighters.
So far, this has only been a fan assumption. The manga doesn’t confirm it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:54 am

Is it me or Piccolo got significant stronger?

Not only he outlasts 17 but Goku even lumps him with Gohan and says he can't barely recognized him.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Fri Mar 20, 2020 12:28 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:54 am
Is it me or Piccolo got significant stronger?
Seems that way. We don't know exactly how strong, but Goku did mention that he barely recognized him.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Triggered Vegeta » Fri Mar 20, 2020 12:51 pm

Wait when Goku blitzed and smashed Saganbo was he still in base? How strong did this guy get? Gohan & Piccolo couldn't do anything to this guy!

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Fri Mar 20, 2020 1:12 pm

So a “smidgen” of Moro’s power turned Saganbo wayyyy beyond the previous SSJ Blue levels and a Gohan who has trained very hard and long since defeating Kefla and become almost unrecognizable to this Goku...?

Just how strong is Moro???

Also, he, (Moro!), casually blocked a punch from a dead serious, intending to stop, newly improved SSJ Blue Goku like it was nothing.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Fri Mar 20, 2020 1:25 pm

Triggered Vegeta wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 12:51 pm
Wait when Goku blitzed and smashed Saganbo was he still in base? How strong did this guy get? Gohan & Piccolo couldn't do anything to this guy!
You’re right in the fact that it was not revealed in what form he was in during the first strike on Saganbo. I also, was like, what??? Was he in Base, Blue, or UI Omen?

But, the strong implication seems to be that it must have logically, and obviously, have been UI Omen.. Even Moro hinted at it.

Which begs the question, how did Saganbo survive so many hits by it, let alone immediately stand up? Not very logical powerscaling in my opinion.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Triggered Vegeta » Fri Mar 20, 2020 1:33 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 1:25 pm
Triggered Vegeta wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 12:51 pm
Wait when Goku blitzed and smashed Saganbo was he still in base? How strong did this guy get? Gohan & Piccolo couldn't do anything to this guy!
You’re right in the fact that it was not revealed in what form he was in during the first strike on Saganbo. I also, was like, what??? Was he in Base, Blue, or UI Omen?

But, the strong implication seems to be that it must have logically, and obviously, have been UI Omen.. Even Moro hinted at it.

Which begs the question, how did Saganbo survive so many hits by it, let alone immediately stand up? Not very logical powerscaling in my opinion.
Wait if he smashed him in Omen, it's possible he held back on those punches cuz look what SSB did to Saganbo. Hope he held back cuz if he didn't, Omen will not dent Moro.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Mar 20, 2020 1:43 pm

Triggered Vegeta wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 12:51 pm
Wait when Goku blitzed and smashed Saganbo was he still in base? How strong did this guy get? Gohan & Piccolo couldn't do anything to this guy!
He was using Ultra Instinct Sign, then reverted to base. Gohan was somewhat able to recognize him. And Jaco due to his gifted eyesight.

Edit: Moro too.
Last edited by Hugo Boss on Fri Mar 20, 2020 1:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Fri Mar 20, 2020 1:45 pm

Triggered Vegeta wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 1:33 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 1:25 pm
Triggered Vegeta wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 12:51 pm
Wait when Goku blitzed and smashed Saganbo was he still in base? How strong did this guy get? Gohan & Piccolo couldn't do anything to this guy!
You’re right in the fact that it was not revealed in what form he was in during the first strike on Saganbo. I also, was like, what??? Was he in Base, Blue, or UI Omen?

But, the strong implication seems to be that it must have logically, and obviously, have been UI Omen.. Even Moro hinted at it.

Which begs the question, how did Saganbo survive so many hits by it, let alone immediately stand up? Not very logical powerscaling in my opinion.
Wait if he smashed him in Omen, it's possible he held back on those punches cuz look what SSB did to Saganbo. Hope he held back cuz if he didn't, Omen will not dent Moro.
Correct. But Omen definitely won’t be the form that finishes Moro.. That’s a job for the Completed version of Ultra Instinct.
(The silver haired form). But i hope Vegeta gets the win ofcourse lol

Also, to everyone else here, there is no set “SSJ Blue level”.

Because which “SSJ Blue Level” are you talking about??? The power Goku used against Golden Freeza when he first came to earth??! The SSJ Blue power he used against Jiren?? Or Broly?? These are all completely different levels of power from “SSJ Blue”.. As clearly shown throughout the ToP in the Anime, and as revealed by Piccolo in today’s Manga chapter. The form itself gets stronger and stronger. I’m willing to bet that Gohan (and even 17!) are way stronger now than the SSJ Blue Goku that first appeared against Golden Frieza in 2015. Literally a different dimension!

So again guys, there is no set “SSJ Blue level”.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:09 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 1:45 pm
Also, to everyone else here, there is no set “SSJ Blue level”.
I don’t see anyone advocating for this opinion. Super has kept a good record of making SSBlue consistently stronger.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Fri Mar 20, 2020 4:39 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:09 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 1:45 pm
Also, to everyone else here, there is no set “SSJ Blue level”.
I don’t see anyone advocating for this opinion. Super has kept a good record of making SSBlue consistently stronger.
You’re wrong. A lot of people, both here, and at other places, are saying stuff like Gohan, 17, or Kefla aren’t “SSJ Blue Level”. I have no idea what they mean by that, since as early as the Revival of F arc does “SSJ Blue Level” exist.
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