Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

[ABED]

Given what we've heard before it would seem as though it's not a merit based system, but more of a caste. Once a lower class warrior, you're always considered lower class.

[Grimlock]

Maybe. But there goes Toriyama saying promotion can happen.

[WittyUsername]

With a power level close to ten thousand, he probably shouldn't be a low-class warrior, but we don't know if he rivaled King Vegeta. We never knew what was his power level.

Vegeta’s PL was 18,000, and if I recall, he was acknowledged as being the strongest and most gifted Saiyan to serve Freeza. Whatever King Vegeta’s PL was, it seems like it would’ve been lower than 18,000.

[MyVisionity]

I thought the 10,000 thing was just supposed to be a parallel to Goku. A low-level warrior exceeding expectations to become more powerful. Bardock is another Goku analogue.

All we know about King Vegeta is that Vegeta had already surpassed him when he was still a child.

[Sadala Elite]

Can't really agree with that. The way I see is that Bardock is special, but even then he isn't powerful enough.

About the rest, let's see: IMO Bardock is special, and also he is the only character who have the "I can see the future" power (besides the Kanassans). I don't think these treats together make sense, and I think my argument makes sense, so I don't see it as a fallacy. Also, I told that Bardock won't fit entirely in that category and I don't think your opinion about the "false concept" is necessarily true.

You just keep repeating the same debunked arguments over and over again.
The "see into the future" power isnt even that special of an ability if it can so easily be passed around. Its just as dumb as calling Goku a Mary Sue for being the only character (let alone Saiyan) shown to use Kaioken.

[WittyUsername]

I thought the 10,000 thing was just supposed to be a parallel to Goku. A low-level warrior exceeding expectations to become more powerful. Bardock is another Goku analogue.

That still makes you wonder why Bardock viewed Goku as a weakling with no promise.

[Tai Lung]

I dont think anyone can actually qualify as a sue seen as it is a meaningless sexist buzzword. But I would like to see what YOU think.

Powerful characters with fast learning there are many in Dragon ball but that is not the concept of mary sue thing that people mistakenly classify them ... because they simply do not know what it means or use it out of ignorance

mary sue ... is a character that wins all the time, everything works out for him and that everyone likes him for no reason usually some representations of superman would qualify as that maybe Molly Wright (Men in Black: International)

but no ... inconsistent or not, someone be powerful doesn't make you mary sue

I have said that Merus can be classified as Mary Sue but not by power if not because everything has turned out perfect to him ... without errors, defeats or losses of any kind ... and he was not even punished for disobeying the angels ... Of course, that can change, but now it is.

[goku the krump dancer]

As much as I hate to say it, there’s nothing that indicates Vegetto did any real damage to Zamasu during that fight.

Actually, believe it or not, there is. It's ridiculously subtle (to the point it may've been an accident), and exists only in the Japanese version... But it's there.

Basically, Fused Zamasu loses the voice filter after being hit by the Big Bang Kamehameha. Literally his very next line ("Behold! This is a god!") has him talking in his normal, unmodified voice. He then goes the rest of the episode with his unmodified voice, except for one brief moment where both he & Trunks get it.

You can read all about that, here: viewtopic.php?t=36633

Eeeh I dont know man, seems like a super reach to me. Mostly because nothing was mentioned in universe about Zamasu being "different" after Vegetto defuses.

At least in the manga Zamasu looked like he was losing and actually feeling pain, which is consistent with what immortality is, you wont die but you,re not impervious to pain.

[SSJgogeto]

You just keep repeating the same debunked arguments over and over again.

And I'll keep doing that because I don't think they are debunked. So we can keep this discussion for the next days or just agree to disagree. With that said:

The "see into the future" power isnt even that special of an ability if it can so easily be passed around. Its just as dumb as calling Goku a Mary Sue for being the only character (let alone Saiyan) shown to use Kaioken.

Nah, Kaioken can be learned, and it's a different context.

If anything, I’d argue that Toriyama’s Bardock is more “special” than the old Bardock. Toriyama’s Bardock was not only the only Saiyan to figure out Freeza’s plans, but he did so entirely on his own. Toei’s Bardock literally had to be told about Freeza wanting to kill the Saiyans, but Toriyama’s version was apparently the only Saiyan smart enough to figure it out on his own. Plus, he is the reason Goku gets sent to Earth, which makes him a much more important character in the story than the old Bardock. With the old Bardock, his importance to the story literally begins and ends with “he impregnated some woman to make Goku.”

That's a good point.

I think both are special but in different ways. The old Bardock is special due to his "gifts", and the canon Bardock is special because of his mind and intelect. But the thing is, while I can see why the new Bardock needs to be like that, IMO all these "gifts" that the old Bardock have are unnecessary, and with some arrangements the whole special could be made without them.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

People are little too hung up on the "always wins" thing. Character roles are a group of traits and not every single box has to be ticked. A character is a main character even if they are not the most important character to the story and an antagonist is an antagonist even if they're in the moral right. A Mary Sue doesn't need every little thing to go their way to be a Mary Sue.

I thought the 10,000 thing was just supposed to be a parallel to Goku. A low-level warrior exceeding expectations to become more powerful. Bardock is another Goku analogue.

That still makes you wonder why Bardock viewed Goku as a weakling with no promise.

I think the in character explanation is that Bardock's visions showed Goku fighting Freeza so to him young Kakarott must be exceptional. Becoming great seems to be an almost alien concept to Saiyans when they're introduced.

But the real reason probably has to do with the writers wanting to keep Bardock as amoral as possible to emphasis that, as much as he may look like Goku, this is not Goku. Bardock doesn't see the potential in people and he wouldn't know how to bring it out even if he did.

[SupremeKai25]

As much as I hate to say it, there’s nothing that indicates Vegetto did any real damage to Zamasu during that fight.

Actually, believe it or not, there is. It's ridiculously subtle (to the point it may've been an accident), and exists only in the Japanese version... But it's there.

Basically, Fused Zamasu loses the voice filter after being hit by the Big Bang Kamehameha. Literally his very next line ("Behold! This is a god!") has him talking in his normal, unmodified voice. He then goes the rest of the episode with his unmodified voice, except for one brief moment where both he & Trunks get it.

You can read all about that, here: viewtopic.php?t=36633

Very nice catch, I never noticed it!

That arc surprisingly had a lot of very small and original details, so it was probably intentional.

[Fionordequester]

Very nice catch, I never noticed it!

That arc surprisingly had a lot of very small and original details, so it was probably intentional.

Remember, though; It's Japanese only. As Gokukrump said, it may just have been carelessness.

The timing of it is really interesting though. Plus, it'd explain why Infinite Zamasu was made up entirely of unfused Zamasu faces.

[SupremeKai25]

Very nice catch, I never noticed it!

That arc surprisingly had a lot of very small and original details, so it was probably intentional.

Remember, though; It's Japanese only. As Gokukrump said, it may just have been carelessness.

The timing of it is really interesting though. Plus, it'd explain why Infinite Zamasu was made up entirely of unfused Zamasu faces.

Yeah, I actually remember reading a similar theory which said that he lost the echo filter after he got hit by Goku's kamehameha, which basically "killed" Goku Black, so to say (hence why he no longer had two Zamasu voices overlapping each others).

That being said dub supports that theory too. In ep. 65 most of Fused Zamasu's lines had that deep echo voice filter, but in ep. 66 I did not hear any echo ever after he became Corrupted.

[Sadala Elite]

You just keep repeating the same debunked arguments over and over again.

And I'll keep doing that because I don't think they are debunked. So we can keep this discussion for the next days or just agree to disagree. With that said:

The "see into the future" power isnt even that special of an ability if it can so easily be passed around. Its just as dumb as calling Goku a Mary Sue for being the only character (let alone Saiyan) shown to use Kaioken.

Nah, Kaioken can be learned, and it's a different context.

If anything, I’d argue that Toriyama’s Bardock is more “special” than the old Bardock. Toriyama’s Bardock was not only the only Saiyan to figure out Freeza’s plans, but he did so entirely on his own. Toei’s Bardock literally had to be told about Freeza wanting to kill the Saiyans, but Toriyama’s version was apparently the only Saiyan smart enough to figure it out on his own. Plus, he is the reason Goku gets sent to Earth, which makes him a much more important character in the story than the old Bardock. With the old Bardock, his importance to the story literally begins and ends with “he impregnated some woman to make Goku.”

That's a good point.

I think both are special but in different ways. The old Bardock is special due to his "gifts", and the canon Bardock is special because of his mind and intelect. But the thing is, while I can see why the new Bardock needs to be like that, IMO all these "gifts" that the old Bardock have are unnecessary, and with some arrangements the whole special could be made without them.

- The "see into the future" powers are also learned. In fact, they are apparently easier to learn and pass on than Kaioken, so your argument doesn't work because there's nothing "special" about Bardock having it.

If being "special" makes one a Mary Sue then Goku is the biggest one in the franchise.

- The entire narrative function of the future-seeing powers is to play up the tragedy and futitly of Bardock's efforts (which isn't something that happens to Sues). The 90s movie would not be better without it.

- New Bardock apparently being the only Saiyan who ever considered the possibly of Freeza wiping them out is ridiculous. Back In Z, King Vegeta and some others also considered this and even started a rebellion before Bardock did. It makes no sense why they didn't in the new Broly film.

- The PL 10,000 with 90s Bardock was explained in the movie as a recent Zenkai. It wasnt something he always had for no reason.

[SSJgogeto]

So you have chosen death... well, ok then. Let's see:

Even if the technique can be learned and you're not make fanfictions the argument persists because the technique was forcilly passed to Bardock, he didn't learned it naturally. About Goku, well, you're saying it, not me. In your third sentence I essentialy disagree with pratically everything, and in your fourth you are just supposing that King Vegeta did nothing when we know little about what exactly happened in the movie. And I still think that Bardock's zenkai is too much.

[Sadala Elite]

So you have chosen death... well, ok then. Let's see:

Even if the technique can be learned and you're not make fanfictions the argument persists because the technique was forcilly passed to Bardock, he didn't learned it naturally. About Goku, well, you're saying it, not me. In your third sentence I essentialy disagree with pratically everything, and in your fourth you are just supposing that King Vegeta did nothing when we know little about what exactly happened in the movie. And I still think that Bardock's zenkai is too much.

- That's a stupid argument, because Bardock still got the ability in a way that literally anyone could get it, not a way that makes him special.

- Its a legit point about Goku

- So you can't prove it wrong?

- The DBS Broly film never even hints at King Vegeta turning against Freeza, but in the Z version we actually see King Vegeta go against Freeza.

- We dont know what Bardock's PL was before the Zenkai, so you can't say if it was too big or not.

[MasenkoHA]

What good did the 10, 000 battle power do Bardock? He was no threat to Freeza at all and was still vastly weaker than Zarbon and Dodoria. Nothing about that Battle Power, from what I recall, was framed as special by the narrative. It just felt like Toei throwing a random number that sounded good at the time. They could have given him a Battle Power of like 3000 and it wouldn’t have changed anything in the story.

He only knew what was going to happen because of the clairvoyant abilities forced on him. Not because he was smarter than the other Saiyans.

Not one single aspect of his character comes remotely close to Gary Stu territory (ignoring Episode of Bardock of course)

[SSJgogeto]

- That's a stupid argument, because Bardock still got the ability in a way that literally anyone could get it, not a way that makes him special.

- Its a legit point about Goku

- So you can't prove it wrong?

- The DBS Broly film never even hints at King Vegeta turning against Freeza, but in the Z version we actually see King Vegeta go against Freeza.

- We dont know what Bardock's PL was before the Zenkai, so you can't say if it was too big or not.

But that the thing, anyone could have the ability but who have it in the end? Bardock. Also, again I said nothing about Goku, if you think that he is a Gary Stu, ok then. About your third sentence, actually I don't know if I can prove it wrong, it's just my opinion. About the film, again we don't know what happened, so we are in the realm of possibilities. And I can say the PL is too big, of course. He is(?) a low-class, so his PL was low before.

...this is fun, I wonder how far this will go.

[MasenkoHA]

- That's a stupid argument, because Bardock still got the ability in a way that literally anyone could get it, not a way that makes him special.

- Its a legit point about Goku

- So you can't prove it wrong?

- The DBS Broly film never even hints at King Vegeta turning against Freeza, but in the Z version we actually see King Vegeta go against Freeza.

- We dont know what Bardock's PL was before the Zenkai, so you can't say if it was too big or not.

But that the thing, anyone could have the ability but who have it in the end? Bardock.

Because. It. Is. A. Story. About. Bardock.

[SSJgogeto]

Yeah, so what?