"What's Wrong with Dragon Ball Z"

Raki · Post by **Raki** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:36 pm

Onikage725 wrote:[
I got into Naruto when they were around the Sasuke Retrieval arc. By the time I had watched up to Sasuke and Naruto's big showdown, they were almost done with filler (but we didn't know that yet). Remember back when ppl thought they would do Kakashi Gaiden? I watched into the second of the big string of filler arcs thinking it wasn't so bad. Then Mizuki turned into a furry. Then they announced Shippuuden. So I just stopped watching and waited for the second series.

Off Topic: I never understood why Kakashi Gaiden wasn't animated.

Mike D · Post by **Mike D** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:39 pm

Raki wrote:Off Topic: I never understood why Kakashi Gaiden wasn't animated.

It really should have been made into a special, alongside all of those flashback clips explaining what happened to the Uchiha clan and the reasoning behind Sasuke's character/personality. But I don't know if that was in the manga or not.

tarrin4ever · Post by **tarrin4ever** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:46 pm

Well I suppose if Cell ever went into a full on "Oh no, please show mercy!!" mode, Goku might have given him a chance.

Goku urging Gohan to take out Cell would be more comparable to the fight between Piccolo Daimao, where there really isn't any room for the villain to beg. It's the difference between being forced to kill him right then and there to save the world or die. Neither Piccolo or Cell had that vulnerable moment that typically stirs Goku to insane acts of kindness.

Velasa · Post by **Velasa** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 11:02 pm

And some people just aren't the kind to ask for mercy, no matter how close to dead they are or how bad things look. Daimaou had too much pride, he'd never even dream of it. Cell I don't know as well, and remember asking Veg to be merciful? (during the "oh, if only I had my full power" speech possibly).

Vekurotto · Post by **Vekurotto** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:06 am

Concerning the dub. I think that if whoever wrote this should have mentioned that it's really annoying that everything, DB anime related, has to become dub-centric if Funimation's going to have a say in it. Really, I seriously hate having to look at nearly all of the DBZ related DVDs that Funimation's put out out there because not only are they so terrible looking, but they also only tell you what happens dub wise. Rarely any mention of what's happening on the Japanese side other than the copyrights to Toei and that the Japanese audio exists. However, you'd rarely know that unless you looked for these things. Hell, Funi goes around and touts DBZ, moreso than DB and GT, like they fucking created it or it was some obscure little known Japanese TV show until they got it, and then it became big. Then there's the treatment of the video games. Goku's speech in BT 1 and 2. I'm playing the games, in Japanese, and I'm like, "Hey, these are translated better than anything Funi's done with the anime." then I get to Goku's speech in the Freeza saga after he turns Super Saiyan and then, to my surprise, They fucking changed it to "ALLY TO FUCKING GOOD NIGHTMARE TO FUCKING YOU!!!11!11!!!11" or something in vain of that, instead of what he's supposed to say. And the thing that pisses me off about that is that the games are translated well, however Funimation deliberately changes stuff all because, either the just can, or because they wanted it to "match" whatever was said in the dub. Again, it's like Funimation, sometimes, acts like they made DBZ. And this brings me to another thing.

I think it's really bad that you want to watch DB/Z dubbed then you'll have to check the dub against the sub for dialogue or character changes and even get confused at the random changes to character motives, the unexplainable plot changes, and all the other crap that you occasionally have to deal with in the dub. I mean imagine, if somebody never saw DB in their life and wanted to start from the very beginning, how do you explain things like when Tenshinhan says Spirit-Cannon" at the 22nd Budokai then only for it to later change into "Tri-Beam" Better yet how do you explain, the Boo saga in the dub. I know many dub fans hate that saga because of dub errors more than anything, and why people suddenly 'forget' information that they should already know like Bulma saying she's known Goku since he was 4 and Gero being the leader of the RRA when they would have already seen that Red was the leader...

I'm not an anime dub hater either, I've watched nearly all of the Gundam series, Outlaw Star, Cowboy Bebop, all of the Tenchi series/movies/and OVAs, and Rurouni Kenshin TV dubbed and rarely was I missing anything. I even actually prefer to watch those series dubbed over subbed because of the sheer fact that I'm not missing much other than a few voices from the sub version. However I just hate bad dubs and guess what? Like the DBZ dub or not, Funimation just did not dub DBZ properly. And no the "Watch it in Japanese if you hate the dub" argument can't really apply because, why is it that there's something compelling me to make myself watch something in a language that an average english speaker can't understand in the first place? And why is it that if the language version I can understand is more confusing context than trying to figure out what a baby is thinking? In all honestly in an anime dub you should never ever feel like forcing yourself to watch it in Japanese since the dub would be nearly identical to the sub. This has happened and it's possible. Granted there are some untranslatable things that could never make it to an English dub and the Japanese audio does have a more authentic feel, but even now, the only real reason why people feel like they don't need to watch dubs are because they think they're terrible, and with stuff like the DB/Z dubs, I don't blame their line of thinking since something like this only should add fuel to their flames.

And honestly, I'd be more forgiving on Funimation's dubbing of the DB franchise if they said that whatever they've done to DB was in no relation to the Japanese original like Robotech and Power Rangers. Outside of the fact that Harmony Gold and Saban/Disney, respectively, used the same footage, Robotech bares no relation to Macross, Southern Cross, or Mospeada and Power Rangers bares no resemblance to the various Super Sentai series they are based from. Those series, in fact, are different shows. DB/Z dubbed and DB/Z subbed are not. They are the same show except that the English version is very mistranslated and sometimes deliberately, mishandled.

Onikage725 wrote:That is true. I see that quite a bit actually. There is some level of hypocrisy with quite a few people's opinion of Dragon Ball. I've heard people who were die hard japanese purists in regards to anime trounce on any dub. Anything from the travesty of "Cardcaptors" and how you can't judge an anime by a shitty re-imagined dub to some random script difference in Cowboy Bebop. And a number of these people have wound up in anti-DBZ bash-fests. And at different times, and on different boards, I've questioned them on this. And 75% of the time, they would reveal that their entire exposure to DBZ was on Toonami.

Like 99% of this describes this guy I know and now absolutely hate with a passion. I know this guy will convince everybody in the entire world that people should watch Cowboy Bebop subbed rather than dubbed because he says that Wendee Lee takes away Flay's "*child-like side" away when in actuality, there isn't any difference between sub-Flay and dub-Flay at all. But when I bring up DB related issues with the dub he makes me look like I'm an overgrown fanboy. Seriously, he's one of those people that acts like he knows everything when in actuality he knows nothing. He's quite possibly the worst type of person you'd ever what to meet.

jjgp1112 · Post by **jjgp1112** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:22 am

I think that the only person who Goku had a personal desire to kill was Frieza, although that got to the point where he was more content with humiliating him rather than killing him, and he fell for Frieza's BS.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 6:05 am

Onikage725 wrote:
Raki wrote:I see it often as well. Most of them in my opinion are somewhat angry at the level of success Dragonball has had across the globe. Either that, or they just do it based on their knowledge of the dub. The One Piece quote you have up there is funny, being as Oda "worships" Toriyama in a sense.
That is true. I see that quite a bit actually. There is some level of hypocrisy with quite a few people's opinion of Dragon Ball.

You know what really makes me sad? The fact that Eiichiro Oda admires and was influenced by Toriyama so much, yet I've found that a large majority of North American OP fans are some of the most close-minded, elitist, stuck-up group I've ever had the misfortune to witness. Many of them really disdain DB(and all other shonen series) and look down on it while having an attitude that OP is this unique and "cut above" masterpiece shonen series. I think the best example of this that stands out in my mind to this day was while taking part in an ANN debate thread 2 or 3 years ago in which VegettoEX was also involved, concerning why so many people dislike DBZ. EX made the point that criticizing DBZ as being formulaic was silly since it's no different than any other Shonen Jump series that follow the shonen formula. A One Piece responded to him and actually said, and I'm quoting this word for word, "While One Piece follows the shonen formula it's an insult to the title to lump it in with the majority of shonen series such as Naruto or Bleach."

As I said above it actually disheartens me since I know how much the manag-ka loves DB and from what I've seen of him in interviews, he's a really humble and gracious guy. Yet the fandom here is such a polar opposite of him. Also saddens me because I love One Piece myself. So ya, pointing out the DB fandom like it's some kind of rare anomaly in the universe of anime fandom is not a valid point in my opinion.

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:51 am

ect5150 · Post by **ect5150** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:26 am

jjgp1112 wrote:I think that the only person who Goku had a personal desire to kill was Freeza,

The original Piccolo Daimao too.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:38 am

I named Ten! He's one of my favorites, and his relegation to the background upsets me more than any other characters'. If Piccolo is the pre-Vegeta, then Ten is the pre-Piccolo. Starts off villain, turns into second strongest "I'll do it if Goku isn't here" guy, then winds up making shock and awe commentary towards Piccolo when he turns into an ally.

Vekurotto · Post by **Vekurotto** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:59 am

If OP fandom is as bad as you guys say, then I'm glad that I don't participate in any discussions about it. Seriously, I have not found one thing about One Piece that I haven't seen before or seen as a raving masterpiece. I like the show, out of the Bleach/Naruto/One Piece war I'd be on OP's side, but I wouldn't say it's the master of shounen. If any shounen series deserves that title it's Hokuto No Ken. End of story.

About the Z-centric world. When I watched nearly all 444 episodes a while ago I went back, after finishing "Z", to watch some of the 22nd Budokai training filler episodes and I was amazed at how much better the fights were, and this was filler. Mostly the fights were better because there was focus more on skill and technique rather than sheer power. Z has that too but over time when I got to the Cell arc the fighting felt so watered down. That they could have just animated the same thing over and over and I wouldn't have cared.

DB really just had better action. DB was just better than Z for the most part as well. But I hate how the English speaking fanbase thinks they don't need DB at all, and then pretend to think they really know what's going on in Z.

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:34 am

Sun_Wukong · Post by **Sun_Wukong** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:36 am

Raki wrote:Off Topic: I never understood why Kakashi Gaiden wasn't animated.

Because you dont need it to understand the main story?

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:57 am

The biggest problem with DB/Z in america is how DB wasn't seen as marketable and so was skipped. I know money talks and all, but it hurts the story. Just look at the screwed up flashbacks in the Cell Saga. Ditto the TV specials being released more like direct to DVD movies instead of playing with the series on TV. In Japan the series aired in order, and there was foundation. Over here Z is missing that foundation, and DB was treated like this little optional prequal series. "Your favorite heroes, only smaller." Sounded like the premise for the NES game Mighty Final Fight.
One small example of this lack of cohesion is with Piccolo. In the Buu Saga he enters the Budokai under the name "Ma Junior," as a throwback to the Dragon Ball and the alias he used back then. In the dub of Ma Junior Saga, he is referred to as "Junior," but in the dub of the Buu Saga he enters as "Majunior." The Buu name wouldn't make sense to anyone who hadn't seen DB, and would make less sense to anyone who saw the DB dub.

EDIT: @ Kunzait-
Shura = Fuck yeah!

Mike D · Post by **Mike D** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:02 pm

Vekurotto wrote:...I was amazed at how much better the fights were, and this was filler. Mostly the fights were better because there was focus more on skill and technique rather than sheer power.

Definitely. Even though I prefer Z, I do enjoy the fights in Dragonball because it introduces martial arts and makes every fight more of a battle of skill rather than the stronger guy wins. A lot of people lack knowledge of or just plain ignore this theme in Dragonball which leaves them to believe that Z is just a bunch of superheroes with destructive powers. What people fail to realize is by that point all of the fighters have gained mastery of their skills and could now fight at speeds much faster than before with their power bringing much more destructive force. It's really an interesting point of the character development that people tend to overlook. Just take the first time Goku fired a Kamehameha in comparison to how he can just let them rip by the Buu saga.

IMHO, you cannot enjoy and respect Z to its fullest without first watching Dragonball. The western market is to blame and now we are left to ignorant elitists who find their sole purpose in life is to make Dragonball look and sound like crap.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:07 pm

^^ That's the thing that drew me to Yu Yu Hakusho. Fights being decided by the smarter or more determined fighter, not the one with the biggest energy beam. Black Dragon Wave not withstanding. Even by the end, when fights are very DBZ-ish, we still have Yusuke worrying about how he uses his Spirite Gun, and how one uses their ki (and which type). Hell, Kurama wins a fight at the end after deliberately choosing to ignore his vastly more powerful demonic form and go at it as a very weak (compared to the high class demons involved) human.

Raki · Post by **Raki** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:16 pm

Sun_Wukong wrote:
Raki wrote:Off Topic: I never understood why Kakashi Gaiden wasn't animated.
Because you dont need it to understand the main story?

We didn't need 80 weeks of filler.

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:45 pm

The Time Traveller · Post by **The Time Traveller** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:51 pm

tarrin4ever wrote:Well I suppose if Cell ever went into a full on "Oh no, please show mercy!!" mode, Goku might have given him a chance.

What if he did turn good? He could get a stable job as a scarecrow.

Kunzait_83, I've noticed that "No respect" for Dragon Ball too, like when it and GT are concidered under Z.
One reason most people hate it is because there's no flying or major destruction scenes, and too many mythology aspects, the thing is those are all the reasons why I prefer Dragon Ball, it's the start, they have no idea what's out there, in DBZ and GT they do, that spoils the fun.
Plus most of Z is waiting for Goku to recover so he can almost get killed again.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 2:40 pm

The Time Traveller wrote:
tarrin4ever wrote:Well I suppose if Cell ever went into a full on "Oh no, please show mercy!!" mode, Goku might have given him a chance.
What if he did turn good? He could get a stable job as a scarecrow.

Kunzait_83, I've noticed that "No respect" for Dragon Ball too, like when it and GT are concidered under Z.
One reason most people hate it is because there's no flying or major destruction scenes, and too many mythology aspects, the thing is those are all the reasons why I prefer Dragon Ball, it's the start, they have no idea what's out there, in DBZ and GT they do, that spoils the fun.
Plus most of Z is waiting for Goku to recover so he can almost get killed again.

I've always said Goku vs Piccolo, in concept, awesome when it's an adaptation of the monkey king vs a personification of the devil. Then you go forward a chapter (or two, depending on which Piccolo), and find out its just Alien A vs Alien B. Don't get me wrong, I dig the sci fi stuff. But the fantasy, the mythology, that's what Dragon Ball is all about to me.