What fans want VS real-life released products.

[SupremeKai25]

Expecting the writers to flesh-out 70 characters is ridiculous.

I don't see why everything about him should've been explained from the beginning.

Why bother including that many if you're just going to waste them ? wouldn't it have been more productive to include less characters, but have them be better developed ?

I'm not saying they should've told us everything from the start, but we should've found out sooner. Imagine if everything about Zamasu and Black was held off until the very last episode or 2, fans would've stopped caring about them. It's even worse for Jiren because he had 0 personality, he was just a punching machine.

Because they wanted to do a battle royale of massive proportions involving the majority of universes. That's an original idea that was never done before in DB.

Future Trunks arc and ToP arc are just different, you shouldn't compare them. Zamasu was the sole driving force and antagonist of the arc, so the reveal of his identity and motivations didn't come at the end. Jiren wasn't the only antagonist or threat of the ToP, there were 7 other universes against the protagonists, because again it was a battle royale. They wanted U11 to be the final "boss", so to say, that's why it took so long for Jiren's backstory and personality to be revealed.

Plus Jiren wasn't even the only mysterious character of that arc. Off the top of my head, there were as many theories about Freeza's true intentions or the Grand Priest.

I also heavily disagree with the idea that Jiren had 0 personality and was just a punching machine. Because he wasn't. Ep. 129-130-131 developed his character a lot, as he went from someone who believes that might makes right, to someone who values the presence of his comrades.

[Matches Malone]

Because they wanted to do a battle royale of massive proportions involving the majority of universes.

Jiren wasn't the only antagonist or threat of the ToP, there were 7 other universes against the protagonists

They wanted U11 to be the final "boss", so to say, that's why it took so long for Jiren's backstory and personality to be revealed.

Ep. 129-130-131 developed his character a lot, as he went from someone who believes that might makes right, to someone who values the presence of his comrades.

If you're going to have a tournament where the loser loses everything, we should care about the characters involved. The problem is the universes involved weren't developed enough in the tournament for us to care. They should've had less universes instead, or waiting until they could develop the rest in other arcs before doing a tournament like this.

But he was always the one with the strongest presence, so we should've gotten something sooner.

I understand that, but that doesn't mean they should've kept everyone in the dark for so long. They could've spread his story out every few episodes so that when he's fighting someone like Kale or Hit, we'd have more of an attachment to him.

In a 30+ episode tournament, waiting that long isn't a good idea.

[TheBigBoy]

Back in 1999 when I heard that Funi was going to release more DBZ episodes I FOOLISHLY assumed that on top of being uncut visually, they would address the other fan grievances. They'd use the original music! The voices I liked would remain while the ones I didn't would be recast! The dialogue would be more mature (i.e. I was expecting fansub esque amounts of swearing so I could justify that I was still watching kid's cartoons when I was 14). I thought that Funi would fulfill these wishes based on a handful of websites where people complained about their treatment of the series. I mean why WOULDN'T they listen to these fans?

Of course we all know how that turned out.

[ABED]

You don't need back story. They need personalities, clever strategies, designs, presence, or maneuvers, and at least one interesting moment. They dont' need to be fully fleshed out to provide something interesting.

I get where you're coming from regarding Jiren, but I disagree. We know why he's at the tournament. It's not like his motives are shrouded in mystery. He wants to survive. Why he values strength so much is icing.

All I want from DBZ is a good quality home video release that won't go out of print, is 4:3, and inexpensive. I'm worried one of my DBox DVD's will get ruined even if I don't do anything, and I'll be shit out of luck.

[Goe]

There are too many fans with such a wide range of opinions that it's impossible to please them all. So whom should storytellers try to please?

You are right about not all fans of the same franchise have equal preferences. However, I think the storywritters should to attract the major part of the audience of that product.

For example, Dragon ball is a light story about humor and martial arts, so adding excesive romance like some shojo would be, in my opinion, a mistake... because DB fans want fights and comedy (in general terms). However, Akatsuki no Yona or Sailor Moon fans would want romance because is a different public.

And what attracts an audience? No way to know. We also know that pandering to people can also turn away an audience. Giving people what they want isn't always the right choice

There are ways to know what attracts a concrete audience. For example, DB audience is attracted by comedy, fights, touching moments like Majin Vegeta’s sacrifice, character admiration, epicness, etc. it’s kinda obvious.

I agree about pandering to people can also turn away an audience (for example, not killing Vegeta in Namek because fans asked Toriyama for not killing him would make the story more boring)... but ignoring totally fans preferences would be another mistake (for example, Keeping Vegeta killed in Namek would be a mistake because he was a charismatic character full of potential, and thanks to his resurrection we saw his heroical sacrifice and redemption in Bu’s saga)

I have thought about it and I am confused by your point. Endings are part of the story. I swear, I didn't make my original post in bad faith or to be contrarian. I really believe that artists should do what they want because there's no way to know what an audience wants and sometimes they don't know what they want until someone shows it to them. Who the hell knew they wanted Vegeta or Saiyans or Namekians when DB first started? Who the hell knew they wanted DB until they saw it?

It was only an example. I tried to explain that the fact I created a thread asking about the reasons of the differences between fans wishes and released products and you replied “I don’t care about fan’s wishes”. I felt it like “I don’t care about what are you asking about in that thread” and it was a bit unconfortable for me, and I tried to put you in an hypothetical situation about someome going to your thread to say you he don’t care it. That’s all.

Matches Malone: Thanks a lot for your post, very interesting. You think that Super and GT writters did what fans want, and that is the reason about what they are bad products. I am not sure about this is the problem (but I admit you have given good points and may be right). Let’s talk about this:

There are interviews with the [GT] staff that say despite them having stories to tell with the other characters, they decided to stick with Goku and Pan because that's what they believed boys and girls watching the show wanted.

Interesting! I have not read that interviews. I agree about public probably want to have Goku and Pan as main character. However, the problem may not be they being MCs but a bad developed plot with they as MCs.

For example, they turned Goku into a Child, and Pan into an annoying character, and both ideas were bad to plot. However, if Pan would be developed as Bulma in the first sagas (a girl with bad points, but not insoportable) and Goku would be the same as end of Z, story would be nice with Goku and pan as MCs.

Then, GT writters would did a bad plot because they didn’t create what most fans wished (most of them would’t want seeing Pan as an annoying teenager).

Goku being turned into a kid was done so in part because they thought an adult Goku couldn't relate to young viewers.

Did GT team members said that?

I’ll talk in a future about Super and then, I’ll reply to your points, which I also find interesting.

Your final paragraphs are very reasonable. However, I think look through specific comment sections would be a good idea. If nowadays I would be a serial manga writter like Toriyama was in the 90s, I’ll read fans opinions in the web, and I’ll try to calculate wishes of most of them to not desapoint my public. However, I’d do that carefully since a little sample is not representative of the most.

Ah, a reason to think listen to fans is ressonable: DB manga wasn’t popular in the beggining, according to Shonen Jump polls. In the first tournament that appeared, popularity increased and Toriyama decided to increase the fight factor. And Toriyama said he add the tournament because he remembered that competition chapters in Dr. Slump were popular, so he acted thinking about fans wishes.

Zinnia: about “a GT thread in disguise” and “ignoring that [GT] ever existed is such a false thing to say”, MM replied you exactly as I would did. Only one thing: against Ub, Goku show his back and hit his butt with their hand. In GT, he pulled down his trousers and show literally his butt.

[ABED]

It's not obvious who the major part of the audience is. Also, audiences can grow. DB grew its audience over time in part because it changed things up constantly and Toriyama got better as both an author and graphic artist. All we know is what attracted them in the past and there's no guarentee it can keep attracting them. Granted, now DB is practically bulletproof, but DB gained a following in part because it always changed things up and took creative risks like making Goku an adult. Who knew how the audience would take to it?

I felt it like “I don’t care about what are you asking about in that thread”

Sorry, that wasn't my intention.

[SupremeKai25]

IT: I disagree that Super writers tried to do what fans wanted. It's not that simple because some people want something, and others want something else. Some people hate twists and wanted Zamasu to be destroyed by Trunks. Other people expected a major twist involving the Grand Priest or someone else, which would've interrupted the Tournament. Ultimately it's just impossible for the writers to please everyone and many times in Super they were criticized precisely because they didn't do what "most fans" (and I use the term very broadly) wanted.

Because they wanted to do a battle royale of massive proportions involving the majority of universes.

Jiren wasn't the only antagonist or threat of the ToP, there were 7 other universes against the protagonists

They wanted U11 to be the final "boss", so to say, that's why it took so long for Jiren's backstory and personality to be revealed.

Ep. 129-130-131 developed his character a lot, as he went from someone who believes that might makes right, to someone who values the presence of his comrades.

If you're going to have a tournament where the loser loses everything, we should care about the characters involved. The problem is the universes involved weren't developed enough in the tournament for us to care. They should've had less universes instead, or waiting until they could develop the rest in other arcs before doing a tournament like this.

But he was always the one with the strongest presence, so we should've gotten something sooner.

I understand that, but that doesn't mean they should've kept everyone in the dark for so long. They could've spread his story out every few episodes so that when he's fighting someone like Kale or Hit, we'd have more of an attachment to him.

In a 30+ episode tournament, waiting that long isn't a good idea.

You really don't need to flesh-out 70 characters to remind people there are high stakes. Small but meaningful moments like the erasure of U9, Obuni's family locket, or Champa's erasure were enough to remind the audience that the tournament is not a game, but a fight for survival.

Plus plenty of people did care about these universes. I personally only cared about U10 because Gowasu was funny and I was sad to see him go, but I saw many people lamenting the loss of U6, U2, and even U9 and U3.

Jiren's strong presence would've been diminished had his backstory been revealed sooner than intended. Your idea would mess up the pacing real bad. Imagine there's one episode talking about Jiren's backstory and for the next 10 episodes people fight anyone but Jiren. His backstory and motivations were revealed when U11 became the spotlight, tying everything up nicely.

[Matches Malone]

Your idea would mess up the pacing real bad.

The pacing was already rock bottom so anything would be an improvement.

You think that Super and GT writers did what fans want, and that is the reason about what they are bad products.

I think that due to them listening to fans too often, it resulted in potential greater stories being missed. For example, we could've had the Zamasu arc be set in U10, which would be a completely new setting full of potential. Instead we were stuck with Future Trunks and his timeline, despite both getting closure in the original manga. We got an entire FOURTH movie centered around Broly, due to fan demand, instead of an original story that could bring something new to the franchise. The problem with fan demand, is that a lot of times it revolves around revisiting the same ideas over and over again. Instead of listening to fans who just want character X or Y to show up, listen to the ones who ask for more fleshed out characters, better paced arcs, new and original ideas, etc. That way you're not tied up creatively.

[Majin Buu]

I'd say fan input is more appropriate for merchandise, since (little to) nothing is affected creatively and since it's ultimately the fans that will be spending money on it.

But I'm in agreement with those that say listening to fans for creative decisions typically shouldn't be done. Fans don't always know (or care about) what's best for the narrative.

[Goe]

Thanks to all of you for your participation. Now I’m going to talk about 21th century films:

Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!!

It’s a mostly nostalgia film. It was released in 2008 and then, the last DB film was released in late 90s and manga stopped in 1995. Fans wanted more DB, Toei gave us it.

In story terms, this film don’t add nothing interesting except to Tarble, that left Earth and was forgotten forever (In conclusion, this film doesn’t add nothing interesting). We have humor again (Goku and Vegeta fighting for food at the end, Chichi knocking out Mutenroshi for being a pervert) but the most absurd gag is Gure herself.

The opening of cha la head cha la with new animation is really touching and plays with nostalgia factor.

Personally I enjoyed this film, but to be sincere, I don’t know if most fans liked it or not (if you have data about that, let me know. Or you can tell if you liked this movie or not) so I’ll wait to stablish a diference between fans and product.

Battle of gods

Toriyama, while doing the original manga, always worked under the supervision of Torishima, Kondo and Takeda (not at the same time, at different times, but still Torishima continued to advise him when he was no longer his official editor). These were more serious and focused people than Toriyama (who doesn't take anything seriously), and they managed to put the brakes on Toriyama because they knew that we fans liked Toriyama's absurd humour (so they allowed him to bring in comic characters like Ginyu force, Mr Satan, etc) but there were things that Toriyama would have been able to do (putting Vegeta dancing Bingo) but his editors put the brakes on him because they knew that going beyond that line would dissapoint fans. Neither does Toriyama like to put in sensitive moments (the sacrifice of Majin Vegeta, Piccolo saving Gohan) but there were things that the fans were touched by, so his editors recommended him to do it.

When Toriyama has been able to create according to his true personality, with no brakes, he has written things like the script of the Battle of the Gods, which was first given to him by his former editor Torishima a script and told him to read it, but Toriyama started to modify it "because it was too complicated for the children" and he felt "the desire not to touch the viewer", thus removing "a grandiloquent scene from Vegeta" (everything I mention about the battle of the gods is said by him in the interview published in volume 5 full color of the Freezer saga).

Plot of BoG, including Vegeta dancing Bingo (a scene that bothered a lot of Vegeta fans) is consequence of Toriyama without taking care of fans (unlike his manga editors). That supports my hypothesis of ignoring fans is damaging.

Freezer resurrection

It looks like that film tried to attract old nostalgic DB fans. Let’s analyze it: the main enemy is the most mythic enemy, and the characters that fought Freezer’s henchmen were the older characters (in order of appearance): Krillin, Mutenroshi, Ten Shin Han, Piccolo and Gohan. Wait... why Goten and Trunks didn’t fight? Why A-18 kept at home with Marron while Krillin went to fight, if she is much stronger? Why Fat bu didn’t go to turn all of them into candies or chocolate? Because Krillin, Muten, Ten and Gohan have much more fans than Goten, kid Trunks, A-18 and Fat Bu. Muten specially shouldn’t be there since it has only 139 units (according to Raditz scouter) and Freezer’s henchmen had about 1500 in Namek (and I guess FnF soldiers are even stronger). How illogical!

And why Freezer could resurrect since Shenron can’t resurrect people who died more than 10 years ago? Only because is a charismatic and loved villain!

That data may support Matches Malone hypothesis about pandering fans is bad for storywritting. However, I have a doubt:
Is “what DB writters think DB fans want” the same thing as “what DB fans really want”?

As a DB fan, I don’t want Freezer again, even if Freezer is my favourite enemy (he really is), because I prefer innovation, not reciclying old enemies that worked in the past but nowadays there’s no way to put them in a new good story...I’d prefer new enemies.

As a fan, I prefer watching fights of A-18, Fat Buu, and Goten and Trunks (maybe fused as Gotenks) instead Mutenroshi, Krillin, Ten and Gohan. I like that older characters more than the guys (and girl) that didn’t fight, but I want above all coherence.

Personally I enjoyed this film, but to be sincere, I don’t know if most fans liked it or not (if you have data about that, let me know, please. Or you can tell if you liked this movie or not) so I’ll wait to stablish a diference between fans and product.

—-

That’s all. It would be great if you answer this mini-questionary:

1.Did you like Son Goku and his friends return?
2.When Son Goku and his friend return was released, I guess Kanzenshuu threads about it were opened. Do you remember if most of fans liked it or not?
3.Did you like resurrection of F?
4.When Resurrection of F was released, I guess Kanzenshuu threads about it were opened. Do you remember if most of fans liked it or not?

You may think “you should search and read this threads instead asking us”. I’ll do it, but sadly I haven’t got enought time to do it, specially because English is not my first language. I may do it in a future and read that threads little by little. But, if you don't mind, please ask the questionary. If you don’t want to answer questions 2 and 4 because you think I should read that threads instead, at least answer to 1 and 3. Thanks

[ABED]

You say the Vegeta dancing scene was damaging, but in what sense? The movie was popular and got the ball rolling on a full fledged revival. No scene or moment or character will be a hit with everyone

if you have data about that

The movie was a bigger hit than even BoG.

listen to the ones who ask for more fleshed out characters, better paced arcs, new and original ideas, etc.

Except that those things are vague. What is good pacing? What is a more fleshed out character and is that even necessary? How much do we know about Freeza's backstory beyond him being the one to destroy the Saiyans? Not much, if anything.

[Goe]

You say the Vegeta dancing scene was damaging, but in what sense?

I mean some Vegeta fans didn’t like it because they found him ridiculous.

About that films being popular, they may be popular, I dont’t know. But, in my opinion, the best criteria to know if they were popular or not, is reading opinions in DB forums. Let me explain it:

In IMDB, rates are:

DB: 8.5
DBZ: 8.7
DBS: 8.4
DBGT: 6.8

I know DBZ is much more popular than Super, so 3 tenths is not the real difference.

About GT, I suspect 6.8 is a higher rate than most DB fans would do. I have been reading/listening GT hatred since decades ago... even now, an user has said this thread is “another GT hatred thread in disguise”, and that phrase indicates that hatred posts about GT are common here.

I know there are a lot of DBGT fans too (the fact that Dragon Ball Heroes and Dragon Ball Super Heroes have GT stuff proves that), but most of GT fans I have seen thought that GT was the worst part, even they like it. (My source is the old DB forum in Spanish I usually surfed more than a decade ago, so their criteria may change since then Super didn’t exist).

In any case, thanks for sharing your opinion, Abed.

[ABED]

Yes, some. Like everything, some liked it, some didn't.

Forums aren't a great way to gauge popularity. It's a skewed sample. Places like these only pull in the most hardcore of fans, and those imdb numbers aren't worth much.

[Matches Malone]

Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!! Personally I enjoyed this film, but to be sincere, I don’t know if most fans liked it or not.

The script of the Battle of the Gods, Toriyama started to modify it "because it was too complicated for the children" and he felt "the desire not to touch the viewer".

Plot of BoG, including Vegeta dancing Bingo (a scene that bothered a lot of Vegeta fans).

Freezer resurrection: It looks like that film tried to attract old nostalgic DB fans. Personally I enjoyed this film, but to be sincere, I don’t know if most fans liked it or not.

The general opinion on the 2008 OVA is that it had a good art style, it was nice seeing the classic opening remade, but giving Vegeta a brother this late in the game wasn't a good move. Overall though, I think most (including myself) enjoyed it for what it was. BOG (in my opinion) is not only the best thing to come out of modern DB, it's just as good as the original material. When it comes to fans, the majority also like the movie. RF...I'll get to below.

The original script for BOG included a lizard destroyer who turned good civilizations evil. The idea was to have him infect everyone on earth, leaving Goku alone to fight against him and his friends. It was also going to show that the Saiyans were actually good, but it was him who turned them bad. There are 2 major problems with this: 1- Turning everyone evil was done twice with Garlic Jr and Baby Vegeta, so why on earth would you try it a 3rd time for DB's grand revival ? 2- Retconning something as big as who the Saiyans were was a terrible idea, as it changes everything previously established within the manga. The saiyans were evil, now they're dead, just leave it as is. Toriyama without a doubt made the right decision to drop that plot. The other thing Toriyama changed was the amount of destruction, which is what he meant by "not touching the viewers". He wrote the script after the 2011 earthquake that hit Japan, so he didn't want to remind people of the destruction it caused. Considering it didn't take anything away form the movie, I don't have a problem with it. One thing fans debate over is Toriyama's decision to simplify the design of SsjG. When it was first shown, I didn't like it, as it didn't look "strong" like Ssj3 and Ssj4. Now though, not only have I grown to like and appreciate SsjG's simplicity, I understand why Toriyama made that choice. The last 2 forms before it were exaggerated looking , so do you push things even further or go back to basics ? I think he made the right decision.

When it comes to Vegeta in BOG, I think he was written great. This story showed how far Vegeta came as a character, as he threw his pride away in order to protect everyone. From the very beginning Vegeta was putting up with things he never would've back in the day, but you could tell with each blow to his pride, especially the dance, he was growing more impatient. When Bulma got hit, that's when he dropped the good guy act and let Beerus have it. On top of that, not only did he do what he always wanted to, surpass Goku, he even surpassed Gohan. What helped makethe scene stand out was all the build up leading up to it. You had build up, then you had a pay off, that's how you write a character...unlike in RF's movie version.

When RF was announced, most fans were disappointed that they were following the original and innovative BOG with a safe movie. However, there was one thing fans were looking forward to, Vegeta vs Freeza. This was going to make or break the movie, as there was so much build up to this fight leading up to the movie. Vegeta was kept hidden in the marketing, and people who worked on the movie were hyping up his role. We also got scene of Goku defeated with Vegeta powering up into some mysterious new form. Despite how unoriginal the movie was, despite it bringing back a villain who was overused, Vegeta's fight could save it. Leading up to the movie, a lot of fans expected Vegeta to not get the kill, but would overlook that if he got to kick Freeza's face in...which he did, but it was so short that it and the movie were over before we knew what happened. Unlike BOG where there was payoff to the build up, RF dropped the ball. Of all the things to rush, they picked the one they had been building up to for moths ? Vegeta's fight with Freeza, earth's destruction, earth being brought back, Goku killing Freeza, and the movie's ending were all done in 5 or so minutes. What should've been at least 20, was reduced to 5. The anime however, fixed everything wrong with the movie's final portion. Vegeta got the fight we all waited for, earth's explosion was improved by showing people dying, and there was an after battle party that ended things in a more coherent way. But despite that, it was too little too late, the damage was already done.

[Grimlock]

I don't know what you're looking for when you say story as if the fight and the story are separable.

I'm looking for something like Freeza saga, the beginning of Cell saga, Baby Vegeta saga and basically any other sagas that have a plot. You build up stuff, you come up with stuff, you tell stuff, you show stuff, characters do stuff, characters say stuff, characters think of something, you put some depth somewhere in there and then characters unleash hell in battle. You don't necessarily need a villain, though. Just something or someone opposing the "good side" should be enough, like Beerus and Fu.

None of those can be found in tournaments, none of those were found in Movie 15. It's just battles that lead nowhere and how we got in that situation in the first place isn't convincing.

The fights are absolutely the story. Every arc is leading towards some climactic battle.

That's because that's how things are resolved, which is beyond my point. The fact that things must always end in a battle does not mean everything and whatever that comes before it must be crap or even without a story at all.

Likely it was to make the fight suitably climactic given who Freeza was built up as being (i.e. the ultimate big bad)

Goku vs Freeza isn't some good guy trying to stop the ultimate big bad guy from doing bad things just because. It was all about the Saiyans and their history with Freeza. It was "their" chance to finally get rid of him and get "their" revenge on him. All through Goku. That is why Goku vs Freeza is the only fight that a story can be seen as being told through a fight (which is also why I think that sillhouetes of Saiyans should have appeared on top of Goku when he fired that Kamehameha to defeat Freeza. Such a huge missed opportunity for an "epic" ending).

[Matches Malone]

None of those can be found in tournaments. It's just battles that lead nowhere and how we got in that situation in the first place isn't convincing.

I agree with everything but this part. The original DB was able to do what you said in its tournaments. Look at Tien for example, by the end of the tournament he was a very different character from when he was introduced. Then again, the 22nd Tenkaichi didn't have to worry about 70+ other fighters taking up screen time. The reason the TOP didn't work was simply due to it being written by weak writers. You give that bunch any other format to work with and you'd end up with the same disappointing results.

[ABED]

You have not convinced me you understand what a plot is. Characters fighting for the sake of their universe is very basic, but it's a plot. Siimple plots are still plots. And it doesn't even have a villain. They're just people trying to save their homes.
+\

That's because that's how things are resolved, which is beyond my point. The fact that things must always end in a battle does not mean everything and whatever that comes before it must be crap or even without a story at all.

It's not beyond your point. It's the heart of the issue. Fighting tells a story. What are they fighting for? What drives them? I still don't know what you're looking for. How does the TOP not have a story? What does it lack that makes it not qualify as a story?

It was all about the Saiyans and their history with Freeza.

No it's not. That's all background stuff that has little to do with Goku. Goku would fight him for two reasons - first and foremost, he's trying to kill his friends, and because he loves to fight the strongest fighters he can. There's no catharsis of the Saiyans getting their revenge because 1) Saiyans weren't good guys, and 2) Goku is Saiyan by birth but he has little emotional connection to that race. He doesn't know them and the ones he does were assholes. He has an emotional connection to Gohan, Kuririn, and Piccolo. Hell, even to Vegeta to some extent.

Every story in the series is told through a fight. Every fight has to tell a story. If it doesn't, it's random moves and wasted motion.

[Matches Malone]

Now DB is practically bulletproof.

This is good for the companies involved, but not the fans. The problem with this kind of guarantee is that it allows the likes of Toei to take things for granted, as we saw with Super. No small or medium size franchise would even think about putting out a product if it was in Super's first year condition, much less actually doing it. DB is one of the only franchises that could put out the likes of episode 5 or 24 and still get to 131. Nearly any other show would've been cancelled then and there (maybe not literally but you get the idea).

[ABED]

I see your point, but it's not necessarily a bad thing. With security, it can allow for more experimentation. The Beatles and Metallica used their massive successes to allow them to constantly change things up.

DB is one of the only franchises that could put out the likes of episode 5 or 24 and still get to 131.

I really doubt that is true. Nearly every show that's ever existed has had bad episodes. I read somewhere that a writer for a network TV show said out of 22 episodes per year, if you have 1/3 great, 1/3 are just okay, and 1/3 are mediocre or even terrible, it's a good batting average. Every show has clunkers, and Toei's entire business philosophy is about being as cheap and putting out as much content as possible. It's quantity over quality.

[Matches Malone]

I see your point, but it's not necessarily a bad thing. With security, it can allow for more experimentation.

Nearly every show that's ever existed has had bad episodes. Every show has clunkers, and Toei's entire business philosophy is quantity over quality.

Yet they won't. DB is as secure as a franchise can get, yet they're so afraid of leaving their safe zone that they won't even let Goku and Vegeta change their outfits, much less seriously changes things.

I'm not expecting every episode to be good, as even the best shows have their bad days, but Super was a bit different. Instead of bad episodes being the exception, they were the norm, with good ones being few and far between. Not only did it start bad, it remained bad for almost a year. Add to that the first 27 episodes being movie retellings, the last 5 being filler episodes, and you've got a situation where any other show just wouldn't be put out in that condition, much less last an entire year in said condition.