Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super ideas

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super ideas

Post by Sadala Elite » Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:41 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:23 pm
Sadala Elite wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:07 pm
That's because in the anime version, SSJ Rose is Black's version of SSJ1, unlike in the manga where its his version of SSB.
This isn't ever actually stated. I tried looking for it but never found it.

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Re: Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super ideas

Post by Dragon Wukong » Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:57 pm

Sadala Elite wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:41 pm
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Sure would've been nice if you posted the actual translation of the magazine, rather than someone's interpretation of it.

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Re: Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super ideas

Post by Sadala Elite » Thu Jul 09, 2020 2:43 am

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:57 pm
Sadala Elite wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:41 pm
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Sure would've been nice if you posted the actual translation of the magazine, rather than someone's interpretation of it.
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Re: Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super ideas

Post by mute_proxy » Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:12 am

It's the same thing in both versions, it's Black's version of Blue. It's just that in the anime he's using god ki by default (Zamasu being a deity), so it's by default his Super Saiyan. It's pretty much semantics, but it's the same thing. In the manga he's able to tap into regular ki too.

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Re: Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super ideas

Post by Sadala Elite » Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:04 am

mute_proxy wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:12 am
It's the same thing in both versions, it's Black's version of Blue. It's just that in the anime he's using god ki by default (Zamasu being a deity), so it's by default his Super Saiyan. It's pretty much semantics, but it's the same thing. In the manga he's able to tap into regular ki too.
That's not at all what the anime says nor shows (nor the guide I posted). And you don't need a God transformation to use God ki.

And no, SSB is not just SSJ1 with God ki, its when you mix SSJ1 & SSG together.

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Re: Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super ideas

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:27 am

If Rosé is just his version of Super Saiyan, then it means Black could have also achieved Super Saiyan Rosé 2 and 3, No? So in the end he only unlocked a fraction of his true potential.
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Re: Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super ideas

Post by mute_proxy » Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:34 am

Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:04 am

That's not at all what the anime says nor shows (nor the guide I posted). And you don't need a God transformation to use God ki.

And no, SSB is not just SSJ1 with God ki, its when you mix SSJ1 & SSG together.
I don't remember what the anime says nor shows specifically, but the "guide" says it's Black's Super Saiyan. If a deity (which Black basically is thanks to Zamasu's soul/spirit) turns Super Saiyan, it automatically switches to SSBlue/SSRose, since a deity's base uses God ki. The "guide" doesn't explain it, a little thought power is required to get it. It is Black's Super Saiyan, as the guide says, but it's his Super Saiyan done with god ki (which is basically SSBlue).

And yes, SSGod going SS is the same as a Super Saiyan switching to God ki/Power of SSG. Vegeta is proof of that. He learned the use of God ki while training in Whis' staff, after which he got SSBlue, skipping SSGod.

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Re: Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super ideas

Post by Dragon Wukong » Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:45 pm

What proxy said. SSGSS is ultimately a "version of Super Saiyan", so Rose being "Black's version of Super Saiyan" doesn't contradict the idea of it also being a version of SSB.

But there was a whole separate thread on this. Let's not get off topic.

As far as Toriyama's unused ideas go, it's interesting to point out that Goku Black having regular Super Saiyan on top of Super Saiyan Rose was also in the notes he gave to Toei.

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Re: Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super ideas

Post by Sadala Elite » Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:40 pm

mute_proxy wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:34 am
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:04 am

That's not at all what the anime says nor shows (nor the guide I posted). And you don't need a God transformation to use God ki.

And no, SSB is not just SSJ1 with God ki, its when you mix SSJ1 & SSG together.
I don't remember what the anime says nor shows specifically, but the "guide" says it's Black's Super Saiyan. If a deity (which Black basically is thanks to Zamasu's soul/spirit) turns Super Saiyan, it automatically switches to SSBlue/SSRose, since a deity's base uses God ki. The "guide" doesn't explain it, a little thought power is required to get it. It is Black's Super Saiyan, as the guide says, but it's his Super Saiyan done with god ki (which is basically SSBlue).

And yes, SSGod going SS is the same as a Super Saiyan switching to God ki/Power of SSG. Vegeta is proof of that. He learned the use of God ki while training in Whis' staff, after which he got SSBlue, skipping SSGod.
- 1st of all, God ki has absolutely nothing to do with raw strength/power at all. So the fact that SSB is stronger than SSG means that SSB can't possibly be just "SSJ1 with God ki". It makes zero sense.

- "God ki" and "Power of SSG" are not the same thing. SSG is a distinct transformation in its own right, and God ki exist/can be used independently of any transformation. Hell, most characters with God ki in the series use it without any form at all.

- There's absolutely nothing in the anime that's suggest Vegeta ever "skipped" SSG at all. As Goku said in RoF, SSB is what happens when a SSG turns SSJ1 (which means that its a hybrid form), so logically that means that you need SSG in order to use SSB at all. And nothing in the DBS anime says that he couldn't use SSG in that version.

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Re: Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super ideas

Post by Sadala Elite » Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:42 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:45 pm
What proxy said. SSGSS is ultimately a "version of Super Saiyan" because its a hybrid form, not just "SSJ1 with God ki", which makes no sense, so Rose being "Black's version of Super Saiyan" doesn't contradict the idea of it also being a version of SSB.
Yes it does, because SSJ Rose has nothing to do with SSG in the anime

But there was a whole separate thread on this. Let's not get off topic.

As far as Toriyama's unused ideas go, it's interesting to point out that Goku Black having regular Super Saiyan on top of Super Saiyan Rose was also in the notes he gave to Toei.

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Re: Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super ideas

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:04 pm

Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:40 pm

- There's absolutely nothing in the anime that's suggest Vegeta ever "skipped" SSG at all. As Goku said in RoF, SSB is what happens when a SSG turns SSJ1 (which means that its a hybrid form), so logically that means that you need SSG in order to use SSB at all. And nothing in the DBS anime says that he couldn't use SSG in that version.
Yeah, I would have to agree on this one. I think fans severely overcomplicate the issue, saying Toyotaro retconned this or Toriyama intended that. I always assumed the obvious: Vegeta somehow obtained Super Saiyan God offscreen like every other transformation he gets in the series, and then boosted it to become Super Saiyan Blue through training with Whis. That's really it.

And yeah, just because Vegeta never used SSG in the anime doesn't mean he can't. There wasn't a context where it was really necessary (and maybe the anime staff just couldn't figure out how it looked for Vegeta at the time - blue does just look better on Vegeta after all :P ). He calls Super Saiyan Blue "the power of a Super Saiyan God" anyway a few times if I remember rightly.
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Re: Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super ideas

Post by Aim » Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:48 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:23 pm
Sadala Elite wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:07 pm
That's because in the anime version, SSJ Rose is Black's version of SSJ1, unlike in the manga where its his version of SSB.
This isn't ever actually stated. I tried looking for it but never found it.
It's implied that it was some form of Goku Black that was unique to him, either being regular Super Saiyan 1, or being a form that's closer to Super Saiyan than SSGSS.
Dragon Wukong wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:35 pm
Well, we know Vegito in the Future Trunks arc and Kale in the ToP weren't originally from Toriyama, though both were approved and he ended up creating Caulifla to go with Kale. Zamasu was also originally written as someone who was weak enough that Goku and Vegeta together could hold him off.

We also know Ultra Instinct wasn't originally part of the Tournament of Power, and came from Toei asking Toriyama to create another form for the arc.

All of this info comes from varying Toei/Toyotaro interviews, but if you look it up I'm sure you can find it. Admittedly it's bad practice of me but I don't have the energy to find my sources right now.

It's kind of interesting to try and think of what Toriyama might've been picturing in his head as he wrote down each arc before changes and additions were made. Personally, Ultra Instinct being an addition to the arc leaves me wondering what Toriyama might have been thinking of when he envisioned the finale being a Goku/Frieza teamup. It would've been pretty interesting if he had a Golden Frieza/Goku Blue fend-off in mind, though that's something I wish we personally got instead of the Final Form/Super Saiyan sendoff from the anime version.
I probably sound annoying, but could you link me the sources to the part where it states UI wasn't originally part of the TOP? I'd love to see more behind the scenes of this stuff, not to mention the tingly back stuff, which I didn't really know whether it was Toriyama or not.
emperior wrote:
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ShaggyBlanco wrote:
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Apparently he came up with the elimination order for the ToP, the anime and manga have different takes on it so I guess it wasn't for every character
Q: How much of the story was written out in Toriyama-sensei‘s original draft?
A: Nakamura: The course of events for the Universe 7 warriors was written out in a document from beginning to end. For instance, who Piccolo fights and loses to, and who ultimately survives. Plus the course of the battle between Universe 7 and Universe 11… all of the main points were written out.
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... vival-arc/
Yes. And Toriyama said that the manga’s tournament of power would have different developments from the manga.

By the way he also supplied the anime staff with the tingly back information and many other stuff, as they said he was very active with the writing of that arc.

Maybe Toei had no idea what to do with the U7 fighters which is why they asked Toriyama and he supplied only them with that document outlining how they lose, while Toyotaro had some freedom to deviate a bit.

Still, I wonder if this piece of information is truly correct. Maybe Toei actually deviated from this document Toriyama gave them? He probably wasn’t very particular about it.

I say it because there’s no way he told them that 18 loses against a clearly not Toriyama character like Anilaza, and same for Tenshinan. Even Roshi’s situation is weird because he basically lost due to overusing Mafuba and I doubt it was Toriyama’s idea to have him spam that move. Maybe he just wrote that after Roshi goes through some very tiring battles he’s convinced to leave the ring by Vegeta.

18 losing against Damon and Tenshinan losing against Frost is much more believable to be something Toriyama wrote and, in fact, he heavily supervised the part where 18 loses in the manga.
But there’s no way he wrote that Roshi loses against Jiren.
Pretty ppppllleeaase link the sources :cry: :oops:

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Re: Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super ideas

Post by Dragon Wukong » Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:41 pm

Aim wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:48 pm
I probably sound annoying, but could you link me the sources to the part where it states UI wasn't originally part of the TOP? I'd love to see more behind the scenes of this stuff, not to mention the tingly back stuff, which I didn't really know whether it was Toriyama or not.
You're not annoying, but the problem is a lot of this information is scattered (mainly throughout Twitter) as opposed to being all collected nice and neat somewhere. It would honestly take me a lot of effort to find it again, since a cursory google oft-doesn't.

I can say that I saw the confirmation in a tweet somewhere that Ultra Instinct came about from Toei asking for a new form at some point after the initial pitch, and that I saw it at some point in what was probably the last 2 months, but beyond that I'd have to ask that someone else in this thread knows what I'm talking about off the top of their head to link it.

To be honest, I really wish details like these were collected somewhere on Kanzenshuu, since searching for miscellaneous information related to the production of Dragon Ball that has been translated or posted by any of 10 different people on Twitter becomes really difficult

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Re: Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super ideas

Post by emperior » Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:20 am

Aim wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:48 pm
Pretty ppppllleeaase link the sources :cry: :oops:
Here:
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... vival-arc/
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Re: Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super ideas

Post by Aim » Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:21 am

mute_proxy wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:34 am
It's the same thing in both versions, it's Black's version of Blue. It's just that in the anime he's using god ki by default (Zamasu being a deity), so it's by default his Super Saiyan. It's pretty much semantics, but it's the same thing. In the manga he's able to tap into regular ki too.

I don't remember what the anime says nor shows specifically, but the "guide" says it's Black's Super Saiyan. If a deity (which Black basically is thanks to Zamasu's soul/spirit) turns Super Saiyan, it automatically switches to SSBlue/SSRose, since a deity's base uses God ki. The "guide" doesn't explain it, a little thought power is required to get it. It is Black's Super Saiyan, as the guide says, but it's his Super Saiyan done with god ki (which is basically SSBlue).

And yes, SSGod going SS is the same as a Super Saiyan switching to God ki/Power of SSG. Vegeta is proof of that. He learned the use of God ki while training in Whis' staff, after which he got SSBlue, skipping SSGod.
Super Saiyan God isn't only a result of a Saiyan having god ki, learning god ki doesn't give the user a massive boost in power, Super Saiyan God does, Super Saiyan God is a transformation...I swear I'm getting deja vu from this.

Stop. Spreading. Misinformation. Vegeta had to learn to tab into Super Saiyan God in order to go SSGSS, he was taught to use god ki and thus access the two godly transformations, he NEVER skipped Super Saiyan God, never, and it was never said he skipped it.

Goku Black's Super Saiyan isn't SSGSS in the anime, at best you could argue it's just a Super Saiyan version that is unique to him, or what fans once dubbed another form to be as "Chou Super Saiyan". It's his beautiful Super Saiyan.
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:27 am
If Rosé is just his version of Super Saiyan, then it means Black could have also achieved Super Saiyan Rosé 2 and 3, No? So in the end he only unlocked a fraction of his true potential.
No, that's like saying Goku and Vegeta should have reached SSGSS 2 & 3.
Toriyama has stated that Goku and Vegeta would probably try and master the original Super Saiyan form to be just as powerful as it's successors, if we apply that here, it could explain Goku Black's Super Saiyan, a "perfect", "beautiful", Super Saiyan.

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Re: Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super ideas

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:29 am

Aim wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:21 am
mute_proxy wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:34 am
It's the same thing in both versions, it's Black's version of Blue. It's just that in the anime he's using god ki by default (Zamasu being a deity), so it's by default his Super Saiyan. It's pretty much semantics, but it's the same thing. In the manga he's able to tap into regular ki too.

I don't remember what the anime says nor shows specifically, but the "guide" says it's Black's Super Saiyan. If a deity (which Black basically is thanks to Zamasu's soul/spirit) turns Super Saiyan, it automatically switches to SSBlue/SSRose, since a deity's base uses God ki. The "guide" doesn't explain it, a little thought power is required to get it. It is Black's Super Saiyan, as the guide says, but it's his Super Saiyan done with god ki (which is basically SSBlue).

And yes, SSGod going SS is the same as a Super Saiyan switching to God ki/Power of SSG. Vegeta is proof of that. He learned the use of God ki while training in Whis' staff, after which he got SSBlue, skipping SSGod.
Super Saiyan God isn't only a result of a Saiyan having god ki, learning god ki doesn't give the user a massive boost in power, Super Saiyan God does, Super Saiyan God is a transformation...I swear I'm getting deja vu from this.

Stop. Spreading. Misinformation. Vegeta had to learn to tab into Super Saiyan God in order to go SSGSS, he was taught to use god ki and thus access the two godly transformations, he NEVER skipped Super Saiyan God, never, and it was never said he skipped it.

Goku Black's Super Saiyan isn't SSGSS in the anime, at best you could argue it's just a Super Saiyan version that is unique to him, or what fans once dubbed another form to be as "Chou Super Saiyan". It's his beautiful Super Saiyan.
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:27 am
If Rosé is just his version of Super Saiyan, then it means Black could have also achieved Super Saiyan Rosé 2 and 3, No? So in the end he only unlocked a fraction of his true potential.
No, that's like saying Goku and Vegeta should have reached SSGSS 2 & 3.
Toriyama has stated that Goku and Vegeta would probably try and master the original Super Saiyan form to be just as powerful as it's successors, if we apply that here, it could explain Goku Black's Super Saiyan, a "perfect", "beautiful", Super Saiyan.
Why? I said if it was his version of Super Saiyan, not Super Saiyan God.
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Re: Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super ideas

Post by Aim » Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:44 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:29 am
Why? I said if it was his version of Super Saiyan, not Super Saiyan God.
I'm confused, it is basically his version of Super Saiyan?

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Re: Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super ideas

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:54 am

Aim wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:44 am
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:29 am
Why? I said if it was his version of Super Saiyan, not Super Saiyan God.
I'm confused, it is basically his version of Super Saiyan?
Yes, so why should he not be able to reach Super Saiyan Rosé 2 and 3? Super Saiyan doesn't have only one form.
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Re: Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super ideas

Post by Aim » Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:54 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:54 am

Yes, so why should he not be able to reach Super Saiyan Rosé 2 and 3? Super Saiyan doesn't have only one form.
Because by that logic you can apply that to SSGSS, because you can argue "why not combine the power of Super Saiyan God with Super Saiyan 2 &/or 3?".

Your statement makes no sense. Since you know why there can't be a Super Saiyan Rosé 2 & 3, but you want to convince everyone that the anime works basically the same as the manga.

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Re: Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super ideas

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:09 am

Aim wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:54 am
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:54 am

Yes, so why should he not be able to reach Super Saiyan Rosé 2 and 3? Super Saiyan doesn't have only one form.
Because by that logic you can apply that to SSGSS, because you can argue "why not combine the power of Super Saiyan God with Super Saiyan 2 &/or 3?".

Your statement makes no sense. Since you know why there can't be a Super Saiyan Rosé 2 & 3, but you want to convince everyone that the anime works basically the same as the manga.
You're still not getting my point...

If Super Saiyan Rosé IS Super Saiyan 1 like some people here said, why can't Goku Black reach this state:

Image

I am not even making a statement, I am just theorycrafting.
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