What would a reboot have to do in order to comply to today's standards?

[goku the krump dancer]

Aside from toning down Roshi's antics, which can be done in a cool way, I feel like Jiraiya and his pervy antics were a step in the right direction from what I can remember and getting rid of the Broken Speech that Popo speaks with ( which is Toei's fault, not Toriyama's I believe) then we should be Aye Okay!

Oh Also not having General Blue flirt with a little boy. Aside from that though, not much else has to change. It's a lot simpler than some of us are making it out to be.

That said though, conforming for the sake of trying to fit everyone's standards is a huge "No-NO", when telling a story or creating a piece of entertainment, you usually have a core audience in mind and while yes its gonna reach the eyes of folks of other demographics eventually, trying to please everyone will ultimately please no one.

I hate the idea that every show has to appeal to every single periphery demographic that might watch it, or that they're obligated to make social statements.

Yeah its a tripe that's plaguing modern storytelling/art and I have no idea where this originated, granted i'm sure its not a "new" thing in particular but it's definitely more prevalent thanks to the Inter-webs. When i'm digging into a new movie, manga, tv series, video game etc, i'm looking for cool characters not characters that "look like me". I mean, I'm not saying there's no significance to the idea of representation but I feel like there's an unnecessary pressure on creators from fans being overly entitled, that dictates the aesthetic so to speak of a show/game/movie etc.

[JulieYBM]

Marginalized Minorities growing up as media geeks and then creating the kind of content they want to see is how we got where we are.

Like, you leave it up to a bunch of cishet white men and you're going to get nothing but cishet white men doing everything in damned near all the media

[ABED]

But the solution isn't to make every show everything to all people. It's to get more art out into the world by a more diverse group of artists with their own POV's. In fact it's through specificity that we often see universality, if that makes any sense. In other words, by each artist making something from their POV, we often see what we all have in common. For instance, I just saw Mindy Kaling's new show "Never Have I Ever" and I loved it. While I can't relate to being an Indian girl, I can related to feeling awkward during adolescence.

[Matches Malone]

Yeah its a tripe that's plaguing modern storytelling/art and I have no idea where this originated, granted i'm sure its not a "new" thing in particular but it's definitely more prevalent thanks to the Inter-webs.

I feel like there's an unnecessary pressure on creators from fans being overly entitled, that dictates the aesthetic so to speak of a show/game/movie etc.

It's definitely been around forever I assume, fans just had no means of getting their entitlements voices heard like they do now. With a few exceptions as mentioned previously, creators don't owe anyone anything.

Look no further than the star wars "fan" base if you want to see entitled. I think I've lost count on the amount of people they've threatened and attacked, as it's gotten to the point where creators refuse to get involved with the franchise.

[emperior]

Let's see what kind of work people other than men can make!

Again, what you are saying sounds as bad as saying “let only men work on DB because only men understand it”. It’s the same principle but reversed. It’s still sexist.

There's absolutely nothing sexist about it. Nobody said it should be "women only". Men are different from women and women are different from men. Hiring more women will almost inevitably produce different results in the story and franchise than if it were a male-dominated office.

Does the idea of seeing more women perspectives bother you this much?

It absolutely doesn’t bother me at all. What bothers me is if people are suddenly chosen to work on something based on their sex and not on their capabilities, passion for said project, compatibility with it etcetera

There are also men with the sensibilities more commonly associated with women and viceversa.
I like to see women and men as people and not as genders, thus I find it discriminatory to only choose men to work on some kind of medium or viceversa based on stupid society’s standards and on the stupid belief that all men are inherently similar and all women too.

Your idea that having women write Dragon Ball would produce different results just because they are women is something I disagree with, because it fails to take into account that there could be women with a line of thinking more closer to that of Toriyama than other men who have written DB do.

Oh, and I just happened to remember that we already have a female, Naho Ooishi, which has been given big roles in DB. I don’t think that people reading the manga of Yo! Son Goku or the Episode of Bardock’s one would immediately think “of course a women drew this”.
And that’s because, like the story or not, those two short mangas do capture Dragon Ball pretty well.
To the point that Toriyama himself was dissatisfied with the Yo! OVA and actually praised Ooishi’s work.
In fact many liked her work so much, especially since her incredibly Toriyama-like art on SD, that they wanted her to work on Super’s manga.
All of this doesn’t have anything to do with Ooishi’s sex or sexuality. To say so would diminish her intelligence and skill. She’s good because she’s good. Because she practiced, because she understood Toriyama’s world.
Not because she’s a female.

[JulieYBM]

Professional woman here. We have different ideas, we also have stupid women, just like men also have stupid men. The idea is to find a non-stupid woman with different ideas. Like, hey, Kamatani Haruka is a cool woman (assuming she isn't an enby)! Lets ask her to direct a Dragon Ball story.

[emperior]

Professional woman here. We have different ideas, we also have stupid women, just like men also have stupid men. The idea is to find a non-stupid woman with different ideas. Like, hey, Kamatani Haruka is a cool woman (assuming she isn't an enby)! Lets ask her to direct a Dragon Ball story.

To direct or to write?

If they absolutely want to give the direction of some important animated Dragon Ball thing to a woman because they feel her gender can bring something different to the table (something I don’t really agree with) then we already have Megumi Ishitani, who’s worked as assistant director for all the Tournament of Power episodes, if I remember correctly, and also handled episodes 107 and 131 which are fan favorites. Not to mention how loved the whole arc was by the general fandom.

She would surely be the best candidate considering she’s already proven she’s capable of handling and understanding Dragon Ball, is amazingly skilled and would deserve it due to having already gone through “training” for it (under hellish conditions, too!).

On the other hand if they absolutely want a woman to write a Dragon Ball story, then Naho Ooishi would deserve a shot to actually come up with a story of her own. That’s because she’s been working on DB for many many years, so if Toyotaro could have the chance with the Galactic Patrol Prisoner Arc then she could also get a chance to write a new spin-off manga, a movie, a TV special or even to come up with an original story for the anime and manga to adapt.

Of course if Ishitani couldn’t actually direct due to either being occupied on something else or not wanting to work on DB anymore they could find some other very skilled woman.

[JulieYBM]

Ishitani won't be trusted with anything beyond directing episodes and storyboarding for a few more years. Kamatani Haruka is the studio's best director right now and she knows how to direct action and drama. Once the Doremi project finishes she should be free again.

https://twitter.com/Shushuttoo/status/7 ... 34624?s=19

https://twitter.com/Yuyucow/status/7909 ... 62214?s=19

[Aim]

There's absolutely nothing sexist about it. Nobody said it should be "women only". Men are different from women and women are different from men. Hiring more women will almost inevitably produce different results in the story and franchise than if it were a male-dominated office.

Does the idea of seeing more women perspectives bother you this much?

Woah woah, "societal conditioning". Women and men don't have different brains, in fact, everyone's brain is different. What you're arguing is the equivalent of what something a racist would argue, so yes, you are being sexist.

Shonen is read by lots of girls, AND boys, vice versa with Shojo.

Where do you get this idea that having men will result in that EXACT product? Having a different demographic of men would be different from the last group of men.

It doesn't matter if it's a man or women, my favorite Toriyama successor is a women, I think she's a lot better at portraying Toriyama-eqsue work than Toyotaro. No single man will have the same idea or even similar idea just like with women, I think there is sexism in your initial statement.

(Didn't mean to sound rude, I'm quick to jump at things like this because as you're probably aware the Dragon Ball fandom is littered with sexist, homophobic pieces of trash.)

[The Bastard.]

There's absolutely nothing sexist about it. Nobody said it should be "women only". Men are different from women and women are different from men. Hiring more women will almost inevitably produce different results in the story and franchise than if it were a male-dominated office.

Does the idea of seeing more women perspectives bother you this much?

Woah woah, "societal conditioning". Women and men don't have different brains, in fact, everyone's brain is different. What you're arguing is the equivalent of what something a racist would argue, so yes, you are being sexist.

Shonen is read by lots of girls, AND boys, vice versa with Shojo.

Where do you get this idea that having men will result in that EXACT product? Having a different demographic of men would be different from the last group of men.

It doesn't matter if it's a man or women, my favorite Toriyama successor is a women, I think she's a lot better at portraying Toriyama-eqsue work than Toyotaro. No single man will have the same idea or even similar idea just like with women, I think there is sexism in your initial statement.

(Didn't mean to sound rude, I'm quick to jump at things like this because as you're probably aware the Dragon Ball fandom is littered with sexist, homophobic pieces of trash.)

Some researches that I saw pointed to evidence that the brains of girls and boys are developed in different ways since the womb, which makes some sense, boys are born with higher levels of testosterone than girls, and hormones could affect the way the brain is formed, you can see adolescents have, huh, different ways of expressing in their groups, with boys behaving more like raging monkeys for example.

Some people are quick to dismiss the impact biology has on personality and even in the gender difference, I firmly believe it makes a big difference in the way men and women behave, even more in younger ages, sociology can't explain everything by itself.

[JulieYBM]

Hormones change the way the brain functions. Being a woman, my brain didn't operate properly when it was operating on testosterone. I was a zombie. Now that my brain is getting the right hormone (estrogen) I can actually feel happiness, sadness and even cry and laugh. I also just feel a thousand percent more comfortable with my gender but that's bound to happen when you stop pretending to be the gender you were assigned at birth and be your actual gender.

But yeah, men, women and enbies all have different experiences and view points, even among themselves. Women in particular are constantly having to put on masks, for example. Hell, that's why it is so hard to diagnose autism in women: we're expected to be a certain way so we learn to pretend to not be autistic--usually at great cost to out health. Trans women go through something similar since we are forced by society to pretend to be a gender we are not, especially if our families don't support us growing up.

Anyway, it's not sexist to say women, enbies and men are different. It is sexist to say all women are the same. Not all women want children, after all, and the mark of what defines a woman is really all up to the individual more so that anything else.

The problem with Dragon Ball is that it's major projects are all led by older cis and likely heterosexual men who ultimately don stray far from a similar life experience. Enbies, women and queer people in general would give Dragon Ball a new type of leadership with different passions, at least.

[ABED]

DB is what it is - a reflection of its author. I'm sure DB with a different author, especially a female author would be very different - in which case I don't care to see it. I don't want to see DB be different. Why not make something else entirely?

[JulieYBM]

Dragon Ball has creators beyond Toriyama involved with it already.

[ABED]

You keep saying that as if DB hasn't skipped a beat since Toriyama originally ended it. It's nowhere near as good as it once was. Turning it into anything else is not the way to keep DB going. There is no way to keep it going strong. It's had its day.

[JulieYBM]

You keep saying that as if DB hasn't skipped a beat since Toriyama originally ended it. It's nowhere near as good as it once was. Turning it into anything else is not the way to keep DB going. There is no way to keep it going strong. It's had its day.

I don't get it. Dragon Ball is being extremely conservative by following the same market-tested ideas as before but changing it is somehow not a good idea?

The best parts of modern Dragon Ball are the parts that Toriyama wouldn't normally do, like Gokuu Black and Zamasu, Caulifla and Kale, Ribrianne, Jiren in the anime. Hell, the weird plotlines in SDBH would actually make for nice character scenes and fights if the cartoon series wasn't so obviously tossed together under poor conditions for the staff. Hearts, who hates the gods and has a moral and ethical issue with them? Cool idea! Gokuu and friends protecting an innocent life from the Destruction Gods and thus bringing the two forces into conflict? Fabulous. Now just push those ideas further!

Changing Dragon Ball--like letting women or enbies into the leadership positions--won't make it good?

Like, the whole point of this thread is to criticize Dragon Ball. I love the franchise, I also want it to do better.

[Locust]

At some point, Toriyama will not be around - as horrible a thought of that is, and I don't even like to linger on that thought too much

But Dragon Ball has evolved from one mans manga, into a huge media franchise, that, even without him - there will likely be new movies, new shows being produced - I don't see it going away anytime soon
In the same way that Tezuka has sadly left the world, but his creations are still being reimagined

So, that being taken into account - fresh blood, people with different perspective, being brought into the fold can surely only be a good thing? To keep things new and interesting?
I think the universe of Dragon Ball is vast enough that there's plenty of innovative plot ideas just waiting to be made
I can't count the number of times I've read a doujinshi and thought "wow I wish this was official this is just such a neat idea!"

While I enjoy aspects of Super, I don't think it's overall very good - but I don't think that's because Dragon Ball as an IP has somehow dried out of ideas and new directions - I think it's simply because the writing just isn't as good as it could be

(Excuse how particularly sloppy my English is in this post, it was a struggle for me to get my feelings across in English)

[JulieYBM]

I've read doujinshi that I thought would make interesting official works if tweaked. Hell, even as-is I think the ideas behind Super Lychee Juice provided ample fun and opportunity to develop Cheelai and Broli simply by having them interact with one another. Similarly, there's a Pokemon doujinshi called Festival of Champion that is so well written and drawn, practically oozing an aura of a passion project.

Kamatani Haruka's directing on Tiger Mask W really elevated the story and characters. Through her directing you could practically feel new additions beyond just the dialogue. Similarly, with Super #131 we saw that Episode Director Ishitani Megumi drew out and loving evoked Jiren and the others' feelings.

More types of creators work on Dragon Ball as it is, we just need to expand their influence to a greater level to increase their number of opportunities to shine.

[Aim]

Some researches that I saw pointed to evidence that the brains of girls and boys are developed in different ways since the womb, which makes some sense, boys are born with higher levels of testosterone than girls, and hormones could affect the way the brain is formed, you can see adolescents have, huh, different ways of expressing in their groups, with boys behaving more like raging monkeys for example.

Some people are quick to dismiss the impact biology has on personality and even in the gender difference, I firmly believe it makes a big difference in the way men and women behave, even more in younger ages, sociology can't explain everything by itself.

Chromosomes dictate the characteristics in the womb, a baby doesn't come out with fully developed breasts or a beard.

Boys being seen as "raging monkeys" is a huge generalisation, that's part of societal conditioning, males in general are given more leeway than females, thus females are taught to be more submissive. Sure, hormones do affect people, but everyone reacts differently to them, you may as well make the argument that certain races and sexuality's should be excluded because "they're different".

These views are very outdated and as time goes on they are proved to be more and more complicated. Human beings are very flexible, and our environment plays a huge part in our development, with human beings it's nurture over nature a lot more than the vise versa.

Sociology definitely can explain lots of these things, it's linked in with environment. The fact society still has such a rigid view of sex and gender and how boys and girls should act goes to show there's still a huge environmental influence.

Gender and sex are different, so I'm unsure as to why you brought that up, since gender is also like a spectrum, it proves my point that there's no inherently "male" or "female" traits.

What really rubs me the wrong way is the fact it's things like these that are used to justify sexism.

Hormones change the way the brain functions. Being a woman, my brain didn't operate properly when it was operating on testosterone. I was a zombie. Now that my brain is getting the right hormone (estrogen) I can actually feel happiness, sadness and even cry and laugh. I also just feel a thousand percent more comfortable with my gender but that's bound to happen when you stop pretending to be the gender you were assigned at birth and be your actual gender.

But yeah, men, women and enbies all have different experiences and view points, even among themselves. Women in particular are constantly having to put on masks, for example. Hell, that's why it is so hard to diagnose autism in women: we're expected to be a certain way so we learn to pretend to not be autistic--usually at great cost to out health. Trans women go through something similar since we are forced by society to pretend to be a gender we are not, especially if our families don't support us growing up.

I can't comment on your experience, but trans gender people suffer from either GID or GD, it's actually different for everyone. You're spot on that men and non-binary's have different view points and experiences, that's why it doesn't make sense to use this generalisation like what "The Bastard" used.

Yep, it's harder to diagnose women with autism because it's seen as "a male trait", which is incredibly stupid and outdated.

Anyway, it's not sexist to say women, enbies and men are different. It is sexist to say all women are the same. Not all women want children, after all, and the mark of what defines a woman is really all up to the individual more so that anything else.

The problem with Dragon Ball is that it's major projects are all led by older cis and likely heterosexual men who ultimately don stray far from a similar life experience. Enbies, women and queer people in general would give Dragon Ball a new type of leadership with different passions, at least.

That's a very vague comment and I would argue it is sexist, it's not hard to be more precise in your arguments. Not to mention he literally stated that he stands by what he said, these arguments are what fuels this traditional view on people based on sex and gender, which is entirely incorrect.

I don't believe having people of LGBT or other peeps would change the series, because someone who knows Dragon Ball most likely won't make it "too deep".

[Dbzfan94]

Aside from toning down Roshi's antics, which can be done in a cool way, I feel like Jiraiya and his pervy antics were a step in the right direction from what I can remember and getting rid of the Broken Speech that Popo speaks with ( which is Toei's fault, not Toriyama's I believe) then we should be Aye Okay!

Oh Also not having General Blue flirt with a little boy. Aside from that though, not much else has to change. It's a lot simpler than some of us are making it out to be.

That said though, conforming for the sake of trying to fit everyone's standards is a huge "No-NO", when telling a story or creating a piece of entertainment, you usually have a core audience in mind and while yes its gonna reach the eyes of folks of other demographics eventually, trying to please everyone will ultimately please no one.

I hate the idea that every show has to appeal to every single periphery demographic that might watch it, or that they're obligated to make social statements.

I feel the same. No piece of media should feel like they need to fill a quota on who they're appealing to. No matter who is in charge, the series should stay the same at it's core. Changing that just because "well a woman's writing it now so it's obviously different than a man" like Julie is implying is just wrong.

[jjgp1112]

DB is what it is - a reflection of its author. I'm sure DB with a different author, especially a female author would be very different - in which case I don't care to see it. I don't want to see DB be different. Why not make something else entirely?

That's about where I stand. I don't have much interest in DB removed far from...the stuff that interested in me in DB to begin with

I remember Toriyama mentioning that part of the reason he didn't do romance, asides from being bad at it, was because he didn't think the readers he was going for would actually want to read that shit. Actually that might be an Oda quote. Whatever. Point being, while shows might attach other demographics too, they usually have a core audience in mind and I don't blame them for sticking with what got them to the dance. If I want DB to explore romance more (and I actually would with that specific angle) or any other theme but they don't care...well at a certain point I have to let that ship sail. It's only entertainment.