Episode #0125 (20 April 2008)
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- Velasa
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There's something for the argument about Pic that I'm surprised no one has brought up yet, a scene just a few minutes before that one.
When the genki dama goes off, everyone gets blown away. Krillian and Gohan get out of the mess of their own, but Son doesn't- Pic pulls him from the water without anyone saying anything to him or asking him to. Son barely seems conscious, and it takes such an effort to move at all that he wouldn't have been able to swim against that current alone. This isn't a mid-battle thing like any of the previous saves- the enemy is supposedly dead and they can just go home. But he consciously drags him up there instead of leaving his longtime rival to drown. It's a major gap he breaches withing himself at that point and I've always loved it. If he would go that far to save his life I can see him taking the extra step some two-three minutes later.
I do not have my manga with me right now unfortunately, so I can't back-check this scene there. But I'm pretty certain that it is.
When the genki dama goes off, everyone gets blown away. Krillian and Gohan get out of the mess of their own, but Son doesn't- Pic pulls him from the water without anyone saying anything to him or asking him to. Son barely seems conscious, and it takes such an effort to move at all that he wouldn't have been able to swim against that current alone. This isn't a mid-battle thing like any of the previous saves- the enemy is supposedly dead and they can just go home. But he consciously drags him up there instead of leaving his longtime rival to drown. It's a major gap he breaches withing himself at that point and I've always loved it. If he would go that far to save his life I can see him taking the extra step some two-three minutes later.
I do not have my manga with me right now unfortunately, so I can't back-check this scene there. But I'm pretty certain that it is.
[quote="Rocketman"]Rocketman is to ChiChi as Velasa is to _______.
A. ChiChi
B. Piccolo
C. Goku
D. Bulma[/quote]
A. ChiChi
B. Piccolo
C. Goku
D. Bulma[/quote]
- Herms
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Yeah, that scene is in the manga as well. And there's that whole scene afterward with everyone all happy now that Freeza is dead (they think), and Piccolo seems pretty close to everyone.Velasa wrote:I do not have my manga with me right now unfortunately, so I can't back-check this scene there. But I'm pretty certain that it is.
Another thing that wasn't mentioned was that at this point Piccolo has already fused with Nail, which would probably affect his personality somewhat. Nail was after all Saichourou's bodyguard and used to altruistic actions.
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We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.
- Velasa
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Hell yes.
While he and Neru fused are... a liiitle headstrong at first, once he gets down from that initial "HOLY CRAP I'M AWESOME!" surge, Neru's lighter nature has an effect on him. I can see how that could impact everything as well.
Pic actually kinda smiles in that scene, and he actually laughs a little with everybody else. For him to even be able to do that means that a lot has changed. Even if it isn't really defined in the manga that he took the bullet, I'll always see it that way.
While he and Neru fused are... a liiitle headstrong at first, once he gets down from that initial "HOLY CRAP I'M AWESOME!" surge, Neru's lighter nature has an effect on him. I can see how that could impact everything as well.
Pic actually kinda smiles in that scene, and he actually laughs a little with everybody else. For him to even be able to do that means that a lot has changed. Even if it isn't really defined in the manga that he took the bullet, I'll always see it that way.
[quote="Rocketman"]Rocketman is to ChiChi as Velasa is to _______.
A. ChiChi
B. Piccolo
C. Goku
D. Bulma[/quote]
A. ChiChi
B. Piccolo
C. Goku
D. Bulma[/quote]
- SSJ2bardock
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You bring up a really good point and some could argue that "if anyone defeats Goku it's going to be me" stuff, but Piccolo showed during the battle with Raditz he doesn't have morals like that or at least back then he didn't.Velasa wrote:There's something for the argument about Pic that I'm surprised no one has brought up yet, a scene just a few minutes before that one.
When the genki dama goes off, everyone gets blown away. Krillian and Gohan get out of the mess of their own, but Son doesn't- Pic pulls him from the water without anyone saying anything to him or asking him to. Son barely seems conscious, and it takes such an effort to move at all that he wouldn't have been able to swim against that current alone. This isn't a mid-battle thing like any of the previous saves- the enemy is supposedly dead and they can just go home. But he consciously drags him up there instead of leaving his longtime rival to drown. It's a major gap he breaches withing himself at that point and I've always loved it. If he would go that far to save his life I can see him taking the extra step some two-three minutes later.
I do not have my manga with me right now unfortunately, so I can't back-check this scene there. But I'm pretty certain that it is.
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- Velasa
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It's pretty clearly not the "if anyone beats him it's gonna be me!" sentiment by that point. I'm not sure how I'd describe it purely in terms of physical examples from the cannon, but there's... just so much damn change that happens before he runs into Son again, and even after he does. Lemme try though....
Basically- Pic did kill Son. But it just left him feeling him hollow. After seeing that he has other choices, after having someone actually care about him, after touching the soil of his homeworld and being infused with memories from his people, there's no way he would do that again.
If I recall correctly, when he snaps at Krillian about being perfectly capable of taking up the mantle of Daimaou and taking over things it was right before he chose to go back to Kami, which was a heavy blow to his ego because he despises the guy. So he was feeling tense and one of the humans was acting way too friendly and he snapped at him to insist he had more control over his life than he really did at that point. It would have been more a defensive thing if that is the timing.
Basically- Pic did kill Son. But it just left him feeling him hollow. After seeing that he has other choices, after having someone actually care about him, after touching the soil of his homeworld and being infused with memories from his people, there's no way he would do that again.
If I recall correctly, when he snaps at Krillian about being perfectly capable of taking up the mantle of Daimaou and taking over things it was right before he chose to go back to Kami, which was a heavy blow to his ego because he despises the guy. So he was feeling tense and one of the humans was acting way too friendly and he snapped at him to insist he had more control over his life than he really did at that point. It would have been more a defensive thing if that is the timing.
[quote="Rocketman"]Rocketman is to ChiChi as Velasa is to _______.
A. ChiChi
B. Piccolo
C. Goku
D. Bulma[/quote]
A. ChiChi
B. Piccolo
C. Goku
D. Bulma[/quote]
- SSJ2bardock
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I agree, he is just having a hard time coping with what he has become and by the end of the series Piccolo is one of Goku's most trusted friends.Velasa wrote:It's pretty clearly not the "if anyone beats him it's gonna be me!" sentiment by that point. I'm not sure how I'd describe it purely in terms of physical examples from the cannon, but there's... just so much damn change that happens before he runs into Son again, and even after he does. Lemme try though....
Basically- Pic did kill Son. But it just left him feeling him hollow. After seeing that he has other choices, after having someone actually care about him, after touching the soil of his homeworld and being infused with memories from his people, there's no way he would do that again.
If I recall correctly, when he snaps at Krillian about being perfectly capable of taking up the mantle of Daimaou and taking over things it was right before he chose to go back to Kami, which was a heavy blow to his ego because he despises the guy. So he was feeling tense and one of the humans was acting way too friendly and he snapped at him to insist he had more control over his life than he really did at that point. It would have been more a defensive thing if that is the timing.
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- Son Wukong
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Maybe Piccolo still had a small grudge against Goku but just as with Raditz, at his time, the main objective in Namek was to beat Freeza. And I always saw Piccolo as the quick thinker of the whole gang and that made it feasible for me in the anime to think that Piccolo intercepted the blast knowing that if it would be anyone who would have a chance against Freeza it would be Goku.
And I really don't think Piccolo would jump in front of Goku to make sure Gohan wouldn't get hurt because he actually yells ''GOKU'' before he pushes him away and gets hit wiht Freeza's blast.
And I really don't think Piccolo would jump in front of Goku to make sure Gohan wouldn't get hurt because he actually yells ''GOKU'' before he pushes him away and gets hit wiht Freeza's blast.
- Saiyavenger2941
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Truer words never spoken.Meri wrote:Illiterate, asinine, stupid, impossible-to-reason-with fanboys.
I do have to say that could also apply to Sonic the Hedgehog or Kingdom Hearts fans as well.
(Which, by the way, I'm a fan of both aforementioned franchises. Just, the majority of the fans are douchebags.)
That's what I think, honestly. He doesn't care much for Goku at this point, but he DOES care a lot for Gohan. I believe he didn't want Gohan growing up without a father. (Of course, that ended up happening anyways, but...)Mike wrote:So, do you think he took the shot for Gohan, maybe?
Gyah... Tell me about it. My two biggest videos are FLOODED with idiots who obviously can't read infoboxes and/or credits.Youtube "what song is this?" comments.
Anyways, great episode, and the closing music = pwnage.
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- dowlingusa
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I honestly don't think there is a grudge there anymore. Piccolo offered his life to protect Goku from Freeza while he finished the "spirit bomb"! He even looked troubled while he watched Goku get pummeled by Freeza previously. You could argue that the main goal was to beat Freeza, but even then Piccolo is constantly helping Goku (I don't need to list them since they are all listed above). It's just one to many coincidences to convince me Piccolo is only helping to protect Gohan or just kill Freeza. Maybe I'm misinterpreting?Son Wukong wrote:Maybe Piccolo still had a small grudge against Goku but just as with Raditz, at his time, the main objective in Namek was to beat Freeza.
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- Saiyavenger2941
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That's a pretty good point too. I'm not sure if this was just a dub add-in, or if it was really part of the original script, but Piccolo, after seeing Goku go at it with Freezy-Pop for a few minutes, says something along the lines of "I wouldn't mind having a chance to spar with him again."dowlingusa wrote:I honestly don't think there is a grudge there anymore. Piccolo offered his life to protect Goku from Freeza while he finished the "spirit bomb"! He even looked troubled while he watched Goku get pummeled by Freeza previously. You could argue that the main goal was to beat Freeza, but even then Piccolo is constantly helping Goku (I don't need to list them since they are all listed above). Its just one to many coincidences to convince me Piccolo is only helping to protect Gohan or just kill Freeza. Maybe I'm misinterpreting?Son Wukong wrote:Maybe Piccolo still had a small grudge against Goku but just as with Raditz, at his time, the main objective in Namek was to beat Freeza.
What stands out in that quote, for me at least, was he said "spar" instead of "fight".
In any instance, it can be looked at both ways.
Man, here's hoping the next inconsistency is this interesting. Genius stuff.
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Hmm.. I didn't listen to the podcast yet (it's still downloadin') but I did watch the "Inconsistencies" video.
I think that yes, it's more Freeza's style to kill of the small fries first, and he would have done Piccolo, Kuririn, and Gohan before Goku. However, he didn't shoot Piccolo through the heart to really kill him. So maybe Freeza's aim is pretty bad, or he wanted to let Piccolo die slowly, but if Piccolo was able to survive something like that while being dragged around by Gohan, then I think Freeza should have gone for a shot through the heart.
Anime wise, it's possible that Freeza was so PO'd that we went for Goku first, but Piccolo saved him; this amusing him, Freeza changes his mind and kills Kuririn next. Or he's so angry that he's just randomly killing whoever without even caring. However, Freeza seems to be calculating while he's staring at them on top of that rock.
So I guess neither way really works perfectly. D:
I think that yes, it's more Freeza's style to kill of the small fries first, and he would have done Piccolo, Kuririn, and Gohan before Goku. However, he didn't shoot Piccolo through the heart to really kill him. So maybe Freeza's aim is pretty bad, or he wanted to let Piccolo die slowly, but if Piccolo was able to survive something like that while being dragged around by Gohan, then I think Freeza should have gone for a shot through the heart.
Anime wise, it's possible that Freeza was so PO'd that we went for Goku first, but Piccolo saved him; this amusing him, Freeza changes his mind and kills Kuririn next. Or he's so angry that he's just randomly killing whoever without even caring. However, Freeza seems to be calculating while he's staring at them on top of that rock.
So I guess neither way really works perfectly. D:
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- djkalteraphine
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"Forbidden Kingdom" was freaking sweet.
On the inconsistency video, I'd say that I do believe Piccolo, at this point, would "take a bullet" for Goku. He's half Nail, remember? And Nail was told specifically by Saichoro to keep the "Earthlings" alive and fighting. Also, at this point in the fight, Piccolo would have seen what Goku can do against Freeza, compared to what he can do (which wasn't very much after Freeza's second transformation). They'd already lost Vegeta, and if Goku dies, their fight is lost: Piccolo is not stupid, he knows he can't defeat Freeza, and that Goku just might. So, when you add it up - the saint-like Nail side, and a practical and logical chessmaster Piccolo side, him jumping in the way of Goku is the perfectly logical and most likely.
On the inconsistency video, I'd say that I do believe Piccolo, at this point, would "take a bullet" for Goku. He's half Nail, remember? And Nail was told specifically by Saichoro to keep the "Earthlings" alive and fighting. Also, at this point in the fight, Piccolo would have seen what Goku can do against Freeza, compared to what he can do (which wasn't very much after Freeza's second transformation). They'd already lost Vegeta, and if Goku dies, their fight is lost: Piccolo is not stupid, he knows he can't defeat Freeza, and that Goku just might. So, when you add it up - the saint-like Nail side, and a practical and logical chessmaster Piccolo side, him jumping in the way of Goku is the perfectly logical and most likely.
- dowlingusa
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Those are all fantastic points. A great summery of the main ideas being thrown around the forum. I definitely think Piccolo knew Goku was the only shot they had. I had also forgotten Nail's influence on Piccolo at the time too. This brings up the question: how much impact did Nail have on Piccolo's views on Goku? Was it 50% Nail in the "new" Piccolo, or less?djkalteraphine wrote:"Forbidden Kingdom" was freaking sweet.
On the inconsistency video, I'd say that I do believe Piccolo, at this point, would "take a bullet" for Goku. He's half Nail, remember? And Nail was told specifically by Saichoro to keep the "Earthlings" alive and fighting. Also, at this point in the fight, Piccolo would have seen what Goku can do against Freeza, compared to what he can do (which wasn't very much after Freeza's second transformation). They'd already lost Vegeta, and if Goku dies, their fight is lost: Piccolo is not stupid, he knows he can't defeat Freeza, and that Goku just might. So, when you add it up - the saint-like Nail side, and a practical and logical chessmaster Piccolo side, him jumping in the way of Goku is the perfectly logical and most likely.
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- djkalteraphine
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I would say at least 40%-ish, but a good half-and-half is always how I've seen it. Nail is one of those obscure characters I've always loved, so I've actually thought about this many times in the past. And I'm of the belief that Piccolo became much wiser and certainly more good natured after his merger with Nail; Though, I seem to recall Nail assuring him otherwise, it's plain when Piccolo is interacting with the other Nameks, and even with Freeza, that Nail was lying to him.dowlingusa wrote: Was it 50% Nail in the "new" Piccolo, or less?
Whether or not Nail was a huge influence is debatable; but he was certainly an influence, that much we know.
Thank you.dowlingusa wrote:Those are all fantastic points. A great summery of the main ideas being thrown around the forum.
- Saiyavenger2941
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I'd like to hear a continuation of the topic on the next episode. With the new ideas (Nail; Freeza originally wanting to kill Goku, but changing his plans after Piccolo's sacrifice) and a possible return for Julian, I think it'd be a great idea and a real treat for us listeners.
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- Velasa
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Damn, I love running through the possibilities on what impact the three different people in his head have on Pic. They're really polar voices- there's Daimaou's dark violence, Kami's holier-than-thou with good intentions and Neru's balance between all of them- he's not weighted too heavily in either direction and much cooler-headed than any of them at times. I wish we could have gotten to see more of him o_o
I like to believe that they're all still in there, slowly driving Pic crazy and annoying the living hell out of him ^_~
I like to believe that they're all still in there, slowly driving Pic crazy and annoying the living hell out of him ^_~
[quote="Rocketman"]Rocketman is to ChiChi as Velasa is to _______.
A. ChiChi
B. Piccolo
C. Goku
D. Bulma[/quote]
A. ChiChi
B. Piccolo
C. Goku
D. Bulma[/quote]