Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Incarnate]

It's funny how in Toei's continuity such a thing as "Legendary Super Saiyan 2" exists, which really makes you wonder if Broly is weaker than Kefla. Or we can all just ignore their little marketing additions not present in Toriyama's draft.

[Hugo Boss]

I think the manga and the anime made very clear that Vegeta saying he was equally matched with Cabba was a “lie”. Even Goku comments that Vegeta didn’t even need to go past Super Saiyan to win that fight.

No they didn't. In fact, in the anime Vegeta saying that him & Cabba were equal was a monologue (and he has no reason to lie to himself). Also, Cabba has Plenty of feats in both versions of the ToP proving that he's base is on par with Goku's & Vegeta's.

A monologue is when someone talks only to himself. He wasn’t doing that. Cabba was hearing him. Besides, I’m not talking about the tournament of power.

[DBZ Macky]

No they didn't. In fact, in the anime Vegeta saying that him & Cabba were equal was a monologue (and he has no reason to lie to himself). Also, Cabba has Plenty of feats in both versions of the ToP proving that he's base is on par with Goku's & Vegeta's.

Please actually watch the fight again to refresh your memory.

1. They trade a few blows, and Cabba instantly runs out of stamina.
2. Cabba charges a Galick Gun and shoots it at Vegeta, who counters him with an uncharged Galick Gun of his own at pretty much point-blank range.
3. The "we're equal in normal forms" line was also clearly directed at Cabba, the screen wouldn't immediately pan to him if that wasn't the case.

Also, what feats does Cabba have in the Anime's ToP? (other than his SS form being on the losing end against Monna, who Vegeta blasts away casually in his base form)

[ZombieVito]

Please actually watch the fight again to refresh your memory.

1. They trade a few blows, and Cabba instantly runs out of stamina.
2. Cabba charges a Galick Gun and shoots it at Vegeta, who counters him with an uncharged Galick Gun of his own at pretty much point-blank range.
3. The "we're equal in normal forms" line was also clearly directed at Cabba, the screen wouldn't immediately pan to him if that wasn't the case.

Also, what feats does Cabba have in the Anime's ToP? (other than his SS form being on the losing end against Monna, who Vegeta blasts away casually in his base form)

All of this can be explained by Vegeta having better skill. At the end of the day Vegeta said they were equal so they are equal.

And Mona said twice that Vegeta caught her off guard. Nice try.

[SaiyanEpic]

I think the manga and the anime made very clear that Vegeta saying he was equally matched with Cabba was a “lie”. Even Goku comments that Vegeta didn’t even need to go past Super Saiyan to win that fight.

+1 especially since the source is in Goku's comments

[ankokudaishogun]

Also, what feats does Cabba have in the Anime's ToP?

forces Freeza to go Golden

...which brings us back to the whole problem with RoF and its portrayal of First Form Freeza, Final Form Freeza and Base Goku

I personally think that while Cabba's base-power is comparable to Vegeta's, Vegeta's skill and experience is much greater.
It would fit with Caulifla vs Base Goku.

So, yeah. Base Cabba would have a similar basic power-level to Vegeta, enough for Vegeta to not bother with outskill him but to force him to reveal his full power as SS... which Cabba couldn't because he never went SS before.

[UI Peter]

Please actually watch the fight again to refresh your memory.

1. They trade a few blows, and Cabba instantly runs out of stamina.
2. Cabba charges a Galick Gun and shoots it at Vegeta, who counters him with an uncharged Galick Gun of his own at pretty much point-blank range.
3. The "we're equal in normal forms" line was also clearly directed at Cabba, the screen wouldn't immediately pan to him if that wasn't the case.

Also, what feats does Cabba have in the Anime's ToP? (other than his SS form being on the losing end against Monna, who Vegeta blasts away casually in his base form)

All of this can be explained by Vegeta having better skill. At the end of the day Vegeta said they were equal so they are equal.

And Mona said twice that Vegeta caught her off guard. Nice try.

Basically this. Thanks for the support.

[UI Peter]

Also, what feats does Cabba have in the Anime's ToP?

forces Freeza to go Golden

...which brings us back to the whole problem with RoF and its portrayal of First Form Freeza, Final Form Freeza and Base Goku

I personally think that while Cabba's base-power is comparable to Vegeta's, Vegeta's skill and experience is much greater.
It would fit with Caulifla vs Base Goku.

So, yeah. Base Cabba would have a similar basic power-level to Vegeta, enough for Vegeta to not bother with outskill him but to force him to reveal his full power as SS... which Cabba couldn't because he never went SS before.

There's also the fact that Vegeta had mastered SSJ1 (grade 4) while Cabba was only a grade 1 SSJ in the U6 arc.

[UI Peter]

It's funny how in Toei's continuity such a thing as "Legendary Super Saiyan 2" exists, which really makes you wonder if Broly is weaker than Kefla. Or we can all just ignore their little marketing additions not present in Toriyama's draft.

There's no such thing as "legendary SSJ2" outside of DB Heroes.

And the manga is also filled with stuff that's not in Toriyama's outline.

[ZombieVito]

Also, what feats does Cabba have in the Anime's ToP?

forces Freeza to go Golden

...which brings us back to the whole problem with RoF and its portrayal of First Form Freeza, Final Form Freeza and Base Goku

I personally think that while Cabba's base-power is comparable to Vegeta's, Vegeta's skill and experience is much greater.
It would fit with Caulifla vs Base Goku.

So, yeah. Base Cabba would have a similar basic power-level to Vegeta, enough for Vegeta to not bother with outskill him but to force him to reveal his full power as SS... which Cabba couldn't because he never went SS before.

There's also the fact that Vegeta had mastered SSJ1 (grade 4) while Cabba was only a grade 1 SSJ in the U6 arc.

Grade 4 and 1 have the same multiplier. The actual difference here is simple: Cabba got his ass demolished by someone 50 times stronger than him. He was not at 100% when he transformed.

[DBZ Macky]

All of this can be explained by Vegeta having better skill. At the end of the day Vegeta said they were equal so they are equal.

And Mona said twice that Vegeta caught her off guard. Nice try.

I understand where you're coming from, it's difficult to go against it when the line is also repeated in the Manga.


It's possible that Vegeta = Cabba in Toriyama's outline, but it doesn't make sense considering the way the Anime and the Manga handled it later.

The Anime especially has Base Goku and Vegeta being stronger than final form Freeza, yet later in the ToP we see Freeza beating the crap out of Cabba (who's supposed to be equal to Vegeta apparently) and fighting with Super Saiyan Caulifla in the Manga (who should be much stronger in that case).

The obvious solution to this inconsistency is to assume that Goku/Vegeta were holding back in the tournament - which they really already were by not using their strongest forms, so why not?

[ZombieVito]

All of this can be explained by Vegeta having better skill. At the end of the day Vegeta said they were equal so they are equal.

And Mona said twice that Vegeta caught her off guard. Nice try.

I understand where you're coming from, it's difficult to go against it when the line is also repeated in the Manga.


It's possible that Vegeta = Cabba in Toriyama's outline, but it doesn't make sense considering the way the Anime and the Manga handled it later.

The Anime especially has Base Goku and Vegeta being stronger than final form Freeza, yet later in the ToP we see Freeza beating the crap out of Cabba (who's supposed to be equal to Vegeta apparently) and fighting with Super Saiyan Caulifla in the Manga (who should be much stronger in that case).

The obvious solution to this inconsistency is to assume that Goku/Vegeta were holding back in the tournament - which they really already were by not using their strongest forms, so why not?

Or Freeza simply surpassed them and reached SS tier on his FF form.

And even if you don't agree with that, Cabba was weakened after beating Mona so him getting beat by him still makes sense.

[UI Peter]

All of this can be explained by Vegeta having better skill. At the end of the day Vegeta said they were equal so they are equal.

And Mona said twice that Vegeta caught her off guard. Nice try.

I understand where you're coming from, it's difficult to go against it when the line is also repeated in the Manga.


It's possible that Vegeta = Cabba in Toriyama's outline, but it doesn't make sense considering the way the Anime and the Manga handled it later.

The Anime especially has Base Goku and Vegeta being stronger than final form Freeza, yet later in the ToP we see Freeza beating the crap out of Cabba (who's supposed to be equal to Vegeta apparently) and fighting with Super Saiyan Caulifla in the Manga (who should be much stronger in that case).

The obvious solution to this inconsistency is to assume that Goku/Vegeta were holding back in the tournament - which they really already were by not using their strongest forms, so why not?

You are falsely assuming that RoF Freeza = ToP Freeza when this is explicitly shown not to be the case (Freeza improved after RoF). There's no inconsistency.

[UI Peter]

I think the manga and the anime made very clear that Vegeta saying he was equally matched with Cabba was a “lie”. Even Goku comments that Vegeta didn’t even need to go past Super Saiyan to win that fight.

+1 especially since the source is in Goku's comments

The key word is "go past SSJ1", not "needed to go SSJ1". If Vegeta was lying about he and Cabba being equal in base then he would have never used SSJ1 on Cabba in the first place (he had no idea about Cabba's full power before he admited to not knowing how to go SSJ1, so Vegeta had no reason nor motive to suppress himself at the start of their fight).

[UI Peter]

I think the manga and the anime made very clear that Vegeta saying he was equally matched with Cabba was a “lie”. Even Goku comments that Vegeta didn’t even need to go past Super Saiyan to win that fight.

No they didn't. In fact, in the anime Vegeta saying that him & Cabba were equal was a monologue (and he has no reason to lie to himself). Also, Cabba has Plenty of feats in both versions of the ToP proving that he's base is on par with Goku's & Vegeta's.

A monologue is when someone talks only to himself. He wasn’t doing that. Cabba was hearing him. Besides, I’m not talking about the tournament of power.

The main point was that Vegeta had no motive to lie to Cabba about their bases being equal in the U6 arc, since Vegeta had no idea about Cabba's full capabilities before the later admiting to not knowing how to transform. So Vegeta had no reason to hold back on Base Cabba.

[Noitsnothim]

Don't know if this has been asked before but here it goes

with how the Moro saga is going how strong do you think SS Broly is now compared to UI Sign/Omen Goku and Perfected SSB Vegeta?
would he be able to hold his own or transform again into his Legendary form?

[FishermanJohnWest]

Doesn't really matter considering she wasn't using normal SSJ forms and yet she wasn't that much greater then Blue despite her base form was > SSJG Goku (weakened)

What are you talking about? SS Kefla was even compared to the Genkidama which was way stronger than KKx20 Blue Goku.

I know there's an argument to be made that "the video game is not canon", but it's in line with some stuff in the actual story as well.
Combine this with the fact that Goku still displays confidence in Buu's abilities despite seeing Frost, Magetta and Cabba in the Universe 6 tournament, and it seems pretty clear to me that they are not supposed to be stronger than Gotenks as we would be lead to believe.

Tl;dr Base Cabba/Caulifla < Cell < SS2 Trunks < SSR Goku Black

Stronger then KKx20 Goku from Episode 110

Goku obviously became a lot stronger then since

[Hugo Boss]

with how the Moro saga is going how strong do you think SS Broly is now compared to UI Sign/Omen Goku and Perfected SSB Vegeta?
would he be able to hold his own or transform again into his Legendary form?

I think he probably needs to use his full power to contend with these new versions of Goku and Vegeta. There is quite an improvement even in regular SSBlue form, let alone the upgraded version and Ultra Instinct itself.

[ZombieVito]

Stronger then KKx20 Goku from Episode 110

Goku obviously became a lot stronger then since

Nope.

No statement exists that confirms that.

[ankokudaishogun]

that only implies Base Cabba>SS3 Gotenks.

Which again bring the whole issue of post-RoF "Super Strong Bases" for Goku and Vegeta, which is something that has been debated for a while