Does anyone else feel that much of the DB fandom enforces low standards?

[ABED]

What are you all pointing to and claiming he's different?

Anyway, I think modern Dragon Ball is getting stale, despite the aforementioned new additions it’s made to the lore.

Lore doesn't matter

[UI Peter]

All of that type of content can be found on modern shonen too, even in series that aren't intentionally super serious.

Whoops! You appear to be changing the subject. Be careful as you craft your responses; you wouldn't want people to think you're moving the goalpost.

Much of the material there seen in the 1983 Weekly Shonen Jump (which is what we were discussing; not "modern shonen" as a whole) has been somewhat softly re-classified as seinen.

Did you want to change the subject and discuss modern shonen as a whole? Have you looked at a recent issue of Weekly Shonen Jump? I would love to do an accompanying photo set comparing 1983 with 2020; let me know if this is something you need, or if you do have any on hand yourself to compare.

The point was that content like that doesn't automatically make a series "edgy", especially when many series from today that generally arent viewed as edgy have the same content.

Nobody was changing the subject smh.

[UI Peter]

It feels like Goku doesn't evolve as character, in contrary, he gets worse or never learns, one of things i like in anime, is watching character evolve and change, with Goku..there is none of that, or regression.

I completely agree, and what makes it worse is how much he developed in the original manga and even the movie that kick started this revival, BOG.

Goku from the Piccolo Jr. arc is easily the best interpretation of that character. He's charismatic as all hell and the thing that arc really pushes is how much of a genius Battle strategist the kid is. Unfortunately, I think that kinda disappears in Z, and is all but gone in Super with the appearance of "Jerk-Ass Goku."

But it is the inevitable consequence of a character who can't evolve and can't learn.

The Piccolo Jr. Saga the only time in early DB where Goku actually does come across as a strategic genius. He actually has more strategic feats throughout Z and even in the ToP anime than he did as a prepubescent kid.

[Skar]

Lore doesn't matter

Isn't this an example of the kind of comments this thread is about? He was just pointing out that he liked some of the new lore not that it was the most important thing to him.

[coola]

I completely agree, and what makes it worse is how much he developed in the original manga and even the movie that kick started this revival, BOG.

Goku from the Piccolo Jr. arc is easily the best interpretation of that character. He's charismatic as all hell and the thing that arc really pushes is how much of a genius Battle strategist the kid is. Unfortunately, I think that kinda disappears in Z, and is all but gone in Super with the appearance of "Jerk-Ass Goku."

But it is the inevitable consequence of a character who can't evolve and can't learn.

The Piccolo Jr. Saga the only time in early DB where Goku actually does come across as a strategic genius. He actually has more strategic feats throughout Z and even in the ToP anime than he did as a prepubescent kid.

I like beginning-Piccolo Daimao Goku best, he is naive and childish, but when you push wrong button and mess up with him or his friends, he will kill you, later on, like Vegeta, he just becomes battle loving jerk, who could screw up everyone with his stupid decisions. Giving senzu to enemies, not caring about Buu revival because Vegeta threw tantrum...it was as bad as what Vegeta did, maybe even worse..

[Matches Malone]

Isn't this an example of the kind of comments this thread is about? He was just pointing out that he liked some of the new lore not that it was the most important thing to him.

When someone says X, Y & Z isn't important, what they're really saying is "my favorite show doesn't do (insert here) well, so I'm going to pretend it's not important". With Super's fanboys, you see a lot of "writing consistency isn't important" comments, something I've never seen any DB fan say before 2015. There were also a lot of fanboys defending its terrible production value, ignoring the fact that the show's staff themselves were saying its quality wasn't where they wanted it, at least during the first 40 or so episodes.

[ABED]

No I mean it isn’t important as it is just exposition. Stories are about emotion not information. Exposition is only important in so far as it sets the relevant information for some future payoff.

[WittyUsername]

Keep in mind, I never said that I think lord is the most important thing in a story. That’s why I said that I don’t particularly love modern Dragon Ball, despite the additions it’s made to the lore. It’s basically window dressing.

[UI Peter]

Goku from the Piccolo Jr. arc is easily the best interpretation of that character. He's charismatic as all hell and the thing that arc really pushes is how much of a genius Battle strategist the kid is. Unfortunately, I think that kinda disappears in Z, and is all but gone in Super with the appearance of "Jerk-Ass Goku."

But it is the inevitable consequence of a character who can't evolve and can't learn.

The Piccolo Jr. Saga the only time in early DB where Goku actually does come across as a strategic genius. He actually has more strategic feats throughout Z and even in the ToP anime than he did as a prepubescent kid.

I like beginning-Piccolo Daimao Goku best, he is naive and childish, but when you push wrong button and mess up with him or his friends, he will kill you, later on, like Vegeta, he just becomes battle loving jerk, who could screw up everyone with his stupid decisions. Giving senzu to enemies, not caring about Buu revival because Vegeta threw tantrum...it was as bad as what Vegeta did, maybe even worse..

Giving Cell a senzu bean had ZERO negative consequences whatsoever (nothing would have changed if he didnt), since he knew that Gohan's hidden power was enough to stop Cell regardless.

Majin Vegeta was the bigger immediate threat at the time (and there was no way Vegeta could be talked out of fighting) and they had no way of knowing how strong Buu would be.

And you're favoring the same Kid Goku who'd mostly ignored the RRA unless he was directly attacked (despite them going to war with the whole world), the same Kid Goku who would be easily tricked by villains when they begged for mercy (happens numerous times in the RRA arc), being easily conned by strangers, etc.

[UI Peter]

No I mean it isn’t important as it is just exposition. Stories are about emotion not information. Exposition is only important in so far as it sets the relevant information for some future payoff.

A story is about whatever the author wants it to be.

[MasenkoHA]

The Piccolo Jr. Saga the only time in early DB where Goku actually does come across as a strategic genius. He actually has more strategic feats throughout Z and even in the ToP anime than he did as a prepubescent kid.

I like beginning-Piccolo Daimao Goku best, he is naive and childish, but when you push wrong button and mess up with him or his friends, he will kill you, later on, like Vegeta, he just becomes battle loving jerk, who could screw up everyone with his stupid decisions. Giving senzu to enemies, not caring about Buu revival because Vegeta threw tantrum...it was as bad as what Vegeta did, maybe even worse..

Giving Cell a senzu bean had ZERO negative consequences whatsoever (nothing would have changed if he didnt), since he knew that Gohan's hidden power was enough to stop Cell regardless.

Majin Vegeta was the bigger immediate threat at the time (and there was no way Vegeta could be talked out of fighting) and they had no way of knowing how strong Buu would be.

And you're favoring the same Kid Goku who'd mostly ignored the RRA unless he was directly attacked (despite them going to war with the whole world), the same Kid Goku who would be easily tricked by villains when they begged for mercy (happens numerous times in the RRA arc), being easily conned by strangers, etc.

They said they liked Goku around Piccolo Daimao, not sure why you’re citing stuff from RRA like that’s a good counter argument

[UI Peter]

I like beginning-Piccolo Daimao Goku best, he is naive and childish, but when you push wrong button and mess up with him or his friends, he will kill you, later on, like Vegeta, he just becomes battle loving jerk, who could screw up everyone with his stupid decisions. Giving senzu to enemies, not caring about Buu revival because Vegeta threw tantrum...it was as bad as what Vegeta did, maybe even worse..

Giving Cell a senzu bean had ZERO negative consequences whatsoever (nothing would have changed if he didnt), since he knew that Gohan's hidden power was enough to stop Cell regardless.

Majin Vegeta was the bigger immediate threat at the time (and there was no way Vegeta could be talked out of fighting) and they had no way of knowing how strong Buu would be.

And you're favoring the same Kid Goku who'd mostly ignored the RRA unless he was directly attacked (despite them going to war with the whole world), the same Kid Goku who would be easily tricked by villains when they begged for mercy (happens numerous times in the RRA arc), being easily conned by strangers, etc.

They said they liked Goku around Piccolo Daimao, not sure why you’re citing stuff from RRA like that’s a good counter argument

They said "beginning-Piccolo Daimao Goku", meaning the whole character before the 23rd TB arc, not just the King Piccolo arc.

[coola]

Giving Cell a senzu bean had ZERO negative consequences whatsoever (nothing would have changed if he didnt), since he knew that Gohan's hidden power was enough to stop Cell regardless.

Majin Vegeta was the bigger immediate threat at the time (and there was no way Vegeta could be talked out of fighting) and they had no way of knowing how strong Buu would be.

And you're favoring the same Kid Goku who'd mostly ignored the RRA unless he was directly attacked (despite them going to war with the whole world), the same Kid Goku who would be easily tricked by villains when they begged for mercy (happens numerous times in the RRA arc), being easily conned by strangers, etc.

They said they liked Goku around Piccolo Daimao, not sure why you’re citing stuff from RRA like that’s a good counter argument

They said "beginning-Piccolo Daimao Goku", meaning the whole character before the 23rd TB arc, not just the King Piccolo arc.

Goku later himself admitted it was mistake, since he thought Gohan loved fighting as much as he do.

If Goku went SSJ3, he could easily overpower Majin Vegeta, without giving too much energy to Buu, Mr. Popo said to Kid Goku, you shouldn't forget there is always someone stronger than you, with he humbly agreed.

Yes, he was still naive and dumb, but didnt hesitate to kill enemy, like post Piccolo Daimao Gaku often did, and it was literally his first real visit in city by himself, so no wonder he got conned.

[ABED]

No I mean it isn’t important as it is just exposition. Stories are about emotion not information. Exposition is only important in so far as it sets the relevant information for some future payoff.

A story is about whatever the author wants it to be.

if an author chooses exposition over emotion one wonders why they chose fiction writer as a profession. And stories are written for the purpose of emotionally connecting to and entertaining the audience.

I never said that I think lord is the most important thing in a story.

I never said that you did.

[LoganForkHands73]

No I mean it isn’t important as it is just exposition. Stories are about emotion not information. Exposition is only important in so far as it sets the relevant information for some future payoff.

A story is about whatever the author wants it to be.

if an author chooses exposition over emotion one wonders why they chose fiction writer as a profession. And stories are written for the purpose of emotionally connecting to and entertaining the audience.

I never said that I think lord is the most important thing in a story.

I never said that you did.

Some people find lore entertaining, though. It's just a writing tool like any other. It can be abused, or it can help a reader invest themselves deeper into the story-world.

There didn't need to be massive coffee table book explaining the entire history of Westeros and detailed recounts on the reigns of every single Targaryen king, but people love that shit. Sure, it proves that George R.R. Martin successfully created a universe filled with characters worth emotionally investing in, but does indulging in the expanded lore actually hurt anyone or the current story in any way? Martin is a huge history nerd with a HUGE imagination and his passion for that topic shines through in how he presents the setting in these supplementary materials.

Sometimes lore is used by writers but never even presented to us. I'm pretty sure when he was writing Kill Bill, Tarantino felt the need to write like four or five scripts worth of content or something ridiculous so he could get a proper handle of the story he was trying to create.

Dragon Ball has much less emphasis on lore because it simply wasn't the prerogative of the author. Even that hasn't stopped people from documenting the god hierarchy on this very website, so people obviously care. I understand not caring for lore yourself, especially for this series, but to completely dismiss it out of hand for all literature is something else.

[ABED]

But it wasn't the lore that people loved it was the characters that even in a fantasy world had identifiable motivations. The exposition was used to inform the characters motives and actions. I've seen plenty of interviews with the guy. He's a history nerd but he's a storyteller first and foremost. He built a complex world for characters to inhabit because people are complex. It's not the same as adding Tom Bombadil who adds NOTHING to the story beyond more pages.

The reason why the Red Wedding is as effective as it is is not just because it was shockingly violent but you cared about the characters and you understood why all sides made the choices they did, including the bad guys. There was also a sense of inevitability since the exposition has set up the relevant context for the audience. We know that marriage in that time wasn't primarily about love, it was about strategic alliances. It wasn't esoteric information.

I would argue that indulging in lore during the story does hurt things. It only adds to the page count.

Sometimes lore is used by writers but never even presented to us. I'm pretty sure when he was writing Kill Bill, Tarantino felt the need to write like four or five scripts worth of content or something ridiculous so he could get a proper handle of the story he was trying to create.

He did it right. He thought the world through but when he wrote the story he took out what wasn't relevant to making the audience want The Bride to get her revenge.

Every story is going to accumulate lore and information. It's not a surprise that websites will catalog it but that information in and of itself wasn't the important takeaway from the story. The entire point of the god hierarchy wasn't world building. It developed over time as Goku got stronger and needed more mountains to climb.

So as to not lose the forest from the trees, lore won't make new DB any better no matter how "interesting" it is. The only thing that will make it more fulfilling are the stories but since the story is effectively complete it is no wonder why it's spinning its wheels.

[UI Peter]

They said they liked Goku around Piccolo Daimao, not sure why you’re citing stuff from RRA like that’s a good counter argument

They said "beginning-Piccolo Daimao Goku", meaning the whole character before the 23rd TB arc, not just the King Piccolo arc.

Goku later himself admitted it was mistake, since he thought Gohan loved fighting as much as he do.

If Goku went SSJ3, he could easily overpower Majin Vegeta, without giving too much energy to Buu, Mr. Popo said to Kid Goku, you shouldn't forget there is always someone stronger than you, with he humbly agreed.

Yes, he was still naive and dumb, but didnt hesitate to kill enemy, like post Piccolo Daimao Gaku often did, and it was literally his first real visit in city by himself, so no wonder he got conned.

Yet Goku was in the end still right for putting Gohan into the battlefield, since Gohan was the only person that could actually have a chance in beating Cell. The fate of the universe is more important than a single kid's feelings.

Turning SSJ3 would have burned out Goku's time on Earth, leaving Gohan left as the only person to take on Babidi and Dabura.

Didnt hesitate to kill an enemy? Like how Kid Goku hesitated to kill General White and General Silver, or how he didnt go for the kill against Tao despite being motivated by revenge foe killing that Native American guy?

[ABED]

While I agree that many of the examples some use against Goku aren't proof of his recklessness and Saiyan nature (a fact that's often overstated by large swaths of the fanbase), he's not a goody two shoes by any stretch and that's a good thing. The only thing that should matter is if his decisions are interesting. He's don't plenty of reckless things over the years and it's not something particular to Super or later DB.

[WittyUsername]

In many cases, lore can enhance the story being told by making the audience feel like they can actually live in that world. This applies more to books and novels, but it can apply to other mediums as well. In Dragon Ball’s case though, the lore of the world has always been something that just sort of exists in the background. Modern Dragon Ball certainly seems more lore heavy than classic Dragon Ball.

[ABED]

In many cases, lore can enhance the story being told by making the audience feel like they can actually live in that world.

Is that the reason given because I don't actually buy that. At most I get the idea that if you love a fictional world, you probably want to know more about it and even that has its limits.