"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Kinokima]

Vegeta has like decades long record of embarassing himself; not sure why would now be any different...

Except he didn’t embarrass himself anymore than anyone else this arc. Moro couldn’t beat Vegeta with his own power and had to steal power again from someone else which is literally what Vegeta accused him of at the start of the fight.

And quite honestly he hasn’t embarrassed himself in Super all that much either. If not beating the main villain is “embarrassing” one self than that’s practically the whole cast.


People put too much importance on who ultimately beats the main villain which is just stupid because there is a story being told here. It’s not just about who wins or loses. This isn’t a sports game but fiction. Saying Vegeta is just there to embarrass himself is just as dumb as when people were saying Toyo was wanking Vegeta because he is his favorite character. But I guess Vegeta is simultaneously Toyo’s favorite character and also just there to be embarrassed by him.

[HeroR]

It's embarrassing how irrelevant Vegeta really is in the grand scheme of things

They did the same thing they did to Vegeta Vs Semi Perfect Cell, and that is Vegeta was nothing but set up for Goku so he can fight a stronger opponent so he can have his precious moment.

Pathetic

In the case of Vegeta Vs Semi Perfect Cell, that was Vegeta's own fault. He could have killed Cell, but he allowed Cell to bait him into allowing him to become perfect even after Trunks told him what an absolutely horrible idea that was and even forced Trunks to blast him. That and it was more of a setup for Gohan than Goku since Goku still lost to Cell. He just put up a better fight and didn't even get to Cell's full power.

Vegeta's role in this arc at the moment (because this can still change) is more akin to Ultimate Gohan. A character who was buildup as the hero, only for him to fall flat on his ass by his own hubris and amount to little more than a free power-up for the villain.

Same can be said for Moro vs Vegeta and Vegeta talking too much and letting Moro get away.

Agree with the last part, Vegeta is honestly their for fusions and to have his little moment and it goes back to Goku and stays there

Except one was intentional on Vegeta’s part. So everything bad that happened afterwards was on him. In the above case is closer to Resurrection ‘F’ than Cell Saga.

[Psajdak]

Right...

I can't wait for Vegeta to steal this arc from Goku.

[HeroR]

It's this. Trying to frame Merus as influential to Goku as Kuririn was doesn't work because we didn't see any of it. Instead, Toyotarou wafted around, showing us pointless fights with Vegeta fighting a random henchman, etc. He had plenty of time to build up this supposed Merus relationship but failed to do so.

Not only that but Goku having this extreme type of reaction toward Merus yet didn't when his family and friends were killed by Boo or when Freeza killed them again in RoF? Yeah, I don't buy it one bit. It's hamfisted, forced drama designed to get a reaction out of people and that's all it is.

I could've misinterpreted but I didn't think it was necessarily implying that Goku formed a super close bond with Meerus. Goku gained respect for him knowing that Meerus wanted to help and do good despite not being allowed as an Angel. Goku's failure to stop Moro is what leads to Meerus sacrificing himself and being erased.

I thought it was closer to #16's death than Krillin's. Gohan had only met #16 recently but #16 sacrificed himself when he had no reason to get involved. If Gohan was able to act earlier and unleash his full power then maybe #16 would've still been alive. What all three have in common is that it was a permanent death for these characters or at least believed to be at the time. Goku assumed Krillin couldn't be wished back since he was already resurrected, #16 was a robot (well #8 was wished back so maybe they never tried with #16), and Meerus was erased. The only way to resurrect Meerus is with the Super Dragonballs which would require Whis helping them crossover to U6 to gather their Dragonballs then make the wish for them. That would be unlikely since he would be violating the Grand Priest or whoever enforces the Angel Law.

Regarding most other deaths in the series, the characters were aware they had the means to resurrect them so their grief wasn't long. When Kid Buu destroyed the Earth, Goku was upset until Dende brought up the Namekian Dragonballs. If Whis didn't rewind time in RoF, Goku would've probably ITed to Namek to restore the Earth again.

I pointed out the difference.

16’s death works, despite me having issues with the entire scene, because of the situation. Gohan even before 16 got there was in emotional distress. He was watching his friends and family being tortured to death and he had the power to stop it, but couldn’t unleashed his power. 16’s death was the kick in the ass Gohan needed because 16 died because of Gohan’s inactions. 16 never being wish back isn’t a factor because when everything was said and done, no one attempted to revive him. He’s quite literally never mentioned again. And there’s no reason why 16 couldn’t be fixed since he was a machine like Android 8 or someone’s car that got brought back in the Buu Saga.

And to make it worse, Merus’ death is treated with more emotional weight than Future Trunks’ timeline being erased. Heck, Goku is more distressed about Merus dying than Future Trunks was over his mother‘a murder and his timeline being erased. So you have this disconnect where every other emotional moment in the Super manga is treated like a footnote, including U6 being erased and the deaths of several fan-favorite characters, but Toyo’s personal OC gets to be mourned and honored to the point that Goku mimicked his rage pose on Namek is just.....not right for the lack of better words.

[Kinokima]

Right...

I can't wait for Vegeta to steal this arc from Goku.

I am not really sure why you think one has to steal the arc from the other.

[Psajdak]

I am not really sure why you think one has to steal the arc from the other.

If you honestly don't know what I am talking about yourself, then you won't get it even if I do try to explain it to you.

- I will say one thing, though; life is short, don't waste it expecting for Vegeta to become anything other than Goku's sidekick.

[goku the krump dancer]

He was more than that since unlike most villains he didn't see himself as the villain or evil. The most he would admit to was that his actions were evil, but it were all for a good caused. Frieza nor any other villain in Dragon Ball up until him didn't try to justify their actions or pretend what they were doing was good. They were evil, proclaimed themselves as evil, and was proud of it.

He also wasn't supposed to be 'morally grey'.

It's fine not to be a fan of Zamasu, but the fact is he wasn't 'Bwahaha I'm evil' as you put it.

Doing something bad for a "good cause" is a form of moral ambiguity but even if you wanna say that Zamasu was just straight up bad do to how self absorbed he was, how does that make him any different from Freeza or Vegeta?

Vegeta -I'm The Saiyan Prince, I'm Better than you!

Freeza - I rule the universe, I'm better than you!

Cell - I'm the perfect life form, I'm better than you!

Zamasu - I'm a God, I'm better than you! but also everyone's wrong and I'm right so I'm gonna kill everyone to prove my point!

Sure, Zamasu has a more refined "motivation", his self delusion is just cranked to the max, so he appears to be a little different when he really isn't once you get past his constant speeches about how people are bad.

Sensui from YuYu Hakusho had the "Humans are bad" thing going on too but he's an infinitely more complex character than Zamasu could ever hope to be. Granted like you said saying Zamasu is the most complex DB Villain is like saying Chic Fil-A is the best fast food joint, not exactly high praise lol. Nothing wrong with being simple either though, I feel like a lot of folks are under the impression that if you cant relate to a villain or hero than that makes them less likable or fun to watch, which isn't true, people love Goku despite how simple he is.

Sometimes when writers try too hard to make someone deep or complex they lose any sense of authenticity to the character and thus their regression or progression as the story moves forward feels forced and unnatural which leads to a lot of (using a wrestling term here) "Go away heat" meaning you wanna see the character be written off not because he's the "bad guy" but because he's just unbearable to watch/listen too. Which a lot of people here seem to feel that way about Moro but I don't. I mean, this arc isn't perfect by a long shot but I've enjoyed most of it more than hated it.

The problem Toyotaro is having with Moro is that he seems to not know if he wants him to be simple or complex, so from an execution stand point he's in this weird middle ground where you can cause people to potentially lose a lot of interest.

Force of nature is a personality trait because Kid Boo didn't really have a personality.

Hurricanes, Tsunamis, Earthquakes and Black Holes are forces of Nature, none those occurrences have a personality though, they are phenomenons that transpire because that's just how things go, they aren't living beings. Boo is a sentient entity that is fully aware of what he does and chooses to do it.

According to modern info Boo has always just been around but he also wasn't always evil either, that just happened overtime. So maybe form an "existence standpoint" you can say he's a force of nature since he's always just kinda been there but he's apparently psychotic by nurture and not nature, despite his sporadic behavior, he can still think, he just doesn't do a lot of it or so it would appear.

[Kinokima]

I am not really sure why you think one has to steal the arc from the other.

If you honestly don't know what I am talking about yourself, then you won't get it even if I do try to explain it to you.

- I will say one thing, though; life is short, don't waste it expecting for Vegeta to become anything other than Goku's sidekick.

Goku is the main character. Vegeta may have his moments to shine but yes he is ultimately going to be the Number 2

The thing is I don’t really understand why people act like that is such a horrible role

[JulieYBM]

Gokuu isn't short-changed by giving Vegeta a win in an arc that departs from his usual storylines.

[Kinokima]

Gokuu isn't short-changed by giving Vegeta a win in an arc that departs from his usual storylines.

Well I don’t think so either but at the same time Vegeta isn’t worthless because he doesn’t get to beat a main villain.

Also the arc isn’t over yet but people are already writing Vegeta off that he isn’t going to do anything else but no one Truly knows that.

[JulieYBM]

Gokuu isn't short-changed by giving Vegeta a win in an arc that departs from his usual storylines.

Well I don’t think so either but at the same time Vegeta isn’t worthless because he doesn’t get to beat a main villain.

Also the arc isn’t over yet but people are already writing Vegeta off that he isn’t going to do anything else but no one Truly knows that.

Yes, the arc isn't over and that is the issue. In trying to out-smart the audience Toyo-tarou and JUMP editorial are doing nothing more than undermining the creation of a good story. The story arc is bloated and unwieldy, inefficiently structured with no clear development in sight other than "Gokuu completes his training, Moro dies."

[BWri]

Vegeta has like decades long record of embarassing himself; not sure why would now be any different...

Except he didn’t embarrass himself anymore than anyone else this arc. Moro couldn’t beat Vegeta with his own power and had to steal power again from someone else which is literally what Vegeta accused him of at the start of the fight.

And quite honestly he hasn’t embarrassed himself in Super all that much either. If not beating the main villain is “embarrassing” one self than that’s practically the whole cast.

People put too much importance on who ultimately beats the main villain which is just stupid because there is a story being told here. It’s not just about who wins or loses. This isn’t a sports game but fiction. Saying Vegeta is just there to embarrass himself is just as dumb as when people were saying Toyo was wanking Vegeta because he is his favorite character. But I guess Vegeta is simultaneously Toyo’s favorite character and also just there to be embarrassed by him.

Goku would also have to be considered embarassed, especially since he got one-shot in the latest chapter and had to be rescued by Merus. I honestly don't feel bad for any character. Everyone has grown considerably from the start of the arc and contributed to the fight in a meaningful way. Moro is just way more resourceful than anyone could have predicted. No one other than him has combined ancient dark magic with cutting edge space technology like he's done with his merger with 7-3. I honestly don't care who defeats Moro at this point. Would it be cool if someone other than Goku did it? Sure! Is it necessary? Not really. Is Vegeta owed a W? I wouldn't say so. It would be cool if it were him dealing the final blow though. DB is kind of known for it's screwy finishes at this point (pardon the wrestling jargon).

And to make it worse, Merus’ death is treated with more emotional weight than Future Trunks’ timeline being erased. Heck, Goku is more distressed about Merus dying than Future Trunks was over his mother‘a murder and his timeline being erased. So you have this disconnect where every other emotional moment in the Super manga is treated like a footnote, including U6 being erased and the deaths of several fan-favorite characters, but Toyo’s personal OC gets to be mourned and honored to the point that Goku mimicked his rage pose on Namek is just.....not right for the lack of better words.

Maybe his writing just improved? I think we all tend to forget that Toyo is learning as he goes. He's also been given a lot more time to flesh this arc out than previous arcs. The ToP feels completely rushed in comparison. Moro's arc is nearly 2 years going now. It also seems like he has more freedom here, but I have no way of confirming that.

My own opinions of the chapter. I liked it. Merus went out like a G and was awesome throughout. I loved his fighting style! I'm going to actually miss the guy (and this is coming from an avid Merus hater at the start of the arc), as I rather like the idea of an angel struggling angelic law and neutrality and keeping his powers in check. If he were a bit weaker, I'd want his inclusion in the main cast as his fights are a joy to watch. I didn't think I'd care to see more from Goku, but I liked that we got more of a glimpse into how he feels about his actions. We never really hear Goku talk about "why" he spares villains. I also like that we get a glimpse into how he bonded with Merus during their training. Dragon Ball tends to gloss over things like this and leave it implied, but I'm glad Toyo was a bit more explicit.

One thing that doesn't make sense is having rage trigger the final state of Ultra Instinct. UI is a form that emphasizes no-mindedness so I think Toyo and Toriyama-san could have been more creative with this instead of rehashing SSJ. Then again, it could be that trauma in general is the trigger, which kind-of falls in line with the anime version as Goku experienced the trauma of near death. We'll have to see next week.

Another thing I initially found weird was the order that Gohan requested Dende heal everyone. For one, I guess Dende can't heal the Androids due to their unnatural energy source, since Gohan didn't include them. I wonder if they have their own source of self healing, something faster than a normal humans? Also, he told Dende to heal specifically in this order: Goku, Piccolo, Vegeta, then himself last. I would think strategically that Vegeta and Goku would be the priority for strategic reasons. It took me a while but I finally realized the order was likely due to their level of injury with Goku and Piccolo having the most severe injuries. Though, I still wonder if this is going to come into play for the next chapter.

Other than that, where the heck is Krillin? He should be close by. Maybe he's the one who'll heal the Androids. And finally. RIP Merus. I'll pour one out for our angelic homie ...

[Xeogran]

Other than that, where the heck is Krillin? He should be close by. Maybe he's the one who'll heal the Androids.

You mean Moro, seeing how Cell-y this saga is

[BWri]

I am not really sure why you think one has to steal the arc from the other.

If you honestly don't know what I am talking about yourself, then you won't get it even if I do try to explain it to you.

- I will say one thing, though; life is short, don't waste it expecting for Vegeta to become anything other than Goku's sidekick.

Goku is the main character. Vegeta may have his moments to shine but yes he is ultimately going to be the Number 2

The thing is I don’t really understand why people act like that is such a horrible role

It's because they are supposed to be rivals and the best rivals are equals. Goku and Vegeta sometimes have equal power levels but their standing in the story is not equal. To this degree, I empathize with Vegeta fans. I would also like it if the story strayed from its formulaic approach. That said, I don't even think Vegeta needs to be the sole fighter standing over Moro in the end in this arc. Everyone has put in the work to defeat him. Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, Piccolo, and likely #18 and the Earthlings all trained for this, so a group effort would be nice. I feel like Goku and Vegeta were both tore down and built up throughout the arc, so a team up with the two of them would also provide a satisfying close to the arc.

I thought it was closer to #16's death than Krillin's. Gohan had only met #16 recently but #16 sacrificed himself when he had no reason to get involved. If Gohan was able to act earlier and unleash his full power then maybe #16 would've still been alive. What all three have in common is that it was a permanent death for these characters or at least believed to be at the time.

Yeah, I see Merus as being a better version of the #16 sacrifice as Goku was able to spend several months (half a year right?) training with him in the RoSaT which does create a bond. You gave a good explanation too.

Other than that, where the heck is Krillin? He should be close by. Maybe he's the one who'll heal the Androids.

You mean Moro, seeing how Cell-y this saga is

I meant Krillin and his bag of sensu. Since Dende doesn't seem to be healing them, I figure it'll be Krillin since he's in the area. Unless they self-heal which hasn't been established yet.

[Majin Hopo]

I've been reading through these forums for years, so I'm excited to finally discuss the current DB material.

Merus had a nice sendoff in this chapter, but he could have been a valuable ally later on if he survived. It looks like Goku will achieve MUI through rage, but I hope other emotions such as regret or grief will be involved. The next chapter could be the end of the final battle with chapter 65 being the aftermath. There is still a slight chance Goku will use MUI to catch Moro off guard and Vegeta will defuse him. Goku will most likely beat him alone since MUI should be strong enough for a weakened Moro. I really liked this arc at the start with a magic based villain and other enemies for the Gohan and co to fight, but now it is starting to drag.

[Magnificent Ponta]

One thing that doesn't make sense is having rage trigger the final state of Ultra Instinct. UI is a form that emphasizes no-mindedness so I think Toyo and Toriyama-san could have been more creative with this instead of rehashing SSJ. Then again, it could be that trauma in general is the trigger, which kind-of falls in line with the anime version as Goku experienced the trauma of near death. We'll have to see next week.

Well, it's not rage as such - it's a jarring shock to his emotions, which he has to then achieve self-control in the face of; so, like Merus explained, it's the opposite of SSj. Goku's experiencing the 'jarring shock' right now; he should be achieving the 'self-control' (and thereby Ultra Instinct) in the next issue.

I think to this end, people who are comparing Merus's death to #16's are on the money, as arguably Gohan's SSj2 transformation is the 'moment' of Dragon Ball (I know everyone's different and has 'their' moment, but Gohan's awakening is probably up there for most as a super-memorable 'moment'); Toyotarou is probably similarly trying to achieve Super's defining 'moment' here (with the differences specific to Ultra Instinct rolled in), which is pretty risky, as it seems a little self-conscious; we'll have to see next month whether it achieves the payoff intended.

[Kagari]

If you honestly don't know what I am talking about yourself, then you won't get it even if I do try to explain it to you.

- I will say one thing, though; life is short, don't waste it expecting for Vegeta to become anything other than Goku's sidekick.

Goku is the main character. Vegeta may have his moments to shine but yes he is ultimately going to be the Number 2

The thing is I don’t really understand why people act like that is such a horrible role

It's because they are supposed to be rivals and the best rivals are equals. Goku and Vegeta sometimes have equal power levels but their standing in the story is not equal. To this degree, I empathize with Vegeta fans. I would also like it if the story strayed from its formulaic approach. That said, I don't even think Vegeta needs to be the sole fighter standing over Moro in the end in this arc. Everyone has put in the work to defeat him. Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, Piccolo, and likely #18 and the Earthlings all trained for this, so a group effort would be nice. I feel like Goku and Vegeta were both tore down and built up throughout the arc, so a team up with the two of them would also provide a satisfying close to the arc.

I thought it was closer to #16's death than Krillin's. Gohan had only met #16 recently but #16 sacrificed himself when he had no reason to get involved. If Gohan was able to act earlier and unleash his full power then maybe #16 would've still been alive. What all three have in common is that it was a permanent death for these characters or at least believed to be at the time.

Yeah, I see Merus as being a better version of the #16 sacrifice as Goku was able to spend several months (half a year right?) training with him in the RoSaT which does create a bond. You gave a good explanation too.

Other than that, where the heck is Krillin? He should be close by. Maybe he's the one who'll heal the Androids.

You mean Moro, seeing how Cell-y this saga is

I meant Krillin and his bag of sensu. Since Dende doesn't seem to be healing them, I figure it'll be Krillin since he's in the area. Unless they self-heal which hasn't been established yet.

They're not really rivals. If anything it's one-sided because Goku doesn't care and hasn't since Namek. They've also not been equals in the original series ever, and in Super outside of RoF since the anime added SSB Kaioken not long after and Vegeta's answer to that didn't come until 80 episodes later when Goku had UI waiting in the wings.

[HeroR]

Vegeta has like decades long record of embarassing himself; not sure why would now be any different...

Except he didn’t embarrass himself anymore than anyone else this arc. Moro couldn’t beat Vegeta with his own power and had to steal power again from someone else which is literally what Vegeta accused him of at the start of the fight.

And quite honestly he hasn’t embarrassed himself in Super all that much either. If not beating the main villain is “embarrassing” one self than that’s practically the whole cast.

People put too much importance on who ultimately beats the main villain which is just stupid because there is a story being told here. It’s not just about who wins or loses. This isn’t a sports game but fiction. Saying Vegeta is just there to embarrass himself is just as dumb as when people were saying Toyo was wanking Vegeta because he is his favorite character. But I guess Vegeta is simultaneously Toyo’s favorite character and also just there to be embarrassed by him.

Goku would also have to be considered embarassed, especially since he got one-shot in the latest chapter and had to be rescued by Merus. I honestly don't feel bad for any character. Everyone has grown considerably from the start of the arc and contributed to the fight in a meaningful way. Moro is just way more resourceful than anyone could have predicted. No one other than him has combined ancient dark magic with cutting edge space technology like he's done with his merger with 7-3. I honestly don't care who defeats Moro at this point. Would it be cool if someone other than Goku did it? Sure! Is it necessary? Not really. Is Vegeta owed a W? I wouldn't say so. It would be cool if it were him dealing the final blow though. DB is kind of known for it's screwy finishes at this point (pardon the wrestling jargon).

And to make it worse, Merus’ death is treated with more emotional weight than Future Trunks’ timeline being erased. Heck, Goku is more distressed about Merus dying than Future Trunks was over his mother‘a murder and his timeline being erased. So you have this disconnect where every other emotional moment in the Super manga is treated like a footnote, including U6 being erased and the deaths of several fan-favorite characters, but Toyo’s personal OC gets to be mourned and honored to the point that Goku mimicked his rage pose on Namek is just.....not right for the lack of better words.

Maybe his writing just improved? I think we all tend to forget that Toyo is learning as he goes. He's also been given a lot more time to flesh this arc out than previous arcs. The ToP feels completely rushed in comparison. Moro's arc is nearly 2 years going now. It also seems like he has more freedom here, but I have no way of confirming that.

My own opinions of the chapter. I liked it. Merus went out like a G and was awesome throughout. I loved his fighting style! I'm going to actually miss the guy (and this is coming from an avid Merus hater at the start of the arc), as I rather like the idea of an angel struggling angelic law and neutrality and keeping his powers in check. If he were a bit weaker, I'd want his inclusion in the main cast as his fights are a joy to watch. I didn't think I'd care to see more from Goku, but I liked that we got more of a glimpse into how he feels about his actions. We never really hear Goku talk about "why" he spares villains. I also like that we get a glimpse into how he bonded with Merus during their training. Dragon Ball tends to gloss over things like this and leave it implied, but I'm glad Toyo was a bit more explicit.

One thing that doesn't make sense is having rage trigger the final state of Ultra Instinct. UI is a form that emphasizes no-mindedness so I think Toyo and Toriyama-san could have been more creative with this instead of rehashing SSJ. Then again, it could be that trauma in general is the trigger, which kind-of falls in line with the anime version as Goku experienced the trauma of near death. We'll have to see next week.

Another thing I initially found weird was the order that Gohan requested Dende heal everyone. For one, I guess Dende can't heal the Androids due to their unnatural energy source, since Gohan didn't include them. I wonder if they have their own source of self healing, something faster than a normal humans? Also, he told Dende to heal specifically in this order: Goku, Piccolo, Vegeta, then himself last. I would think strategically that Vegeta and Goku would be the priority for strategic reasons. It took me a while but I finally realized the order was likely due to their level of injury with Goku and Piccolo having the most severe injuries. Though, I still wonder if this is going to come into play for the next chapter.

Other than that, where the heck is Krillin? He should be close by. Maybe he's the one who'll heal the Androids. And finally. RIP Merus. I'll pour one out for our angelic homie ...

The problem with ‘he’s just learning’ is that even as recent as last year when he killed all the Namekians, that had no emotional weight with the merged Super Namekian being killed without Moro even looking as a punchline. It like all tragedies are treated as a footnote with no one really caring outside a comment or two about the genocide. Compared that to Merus’ end.

It’s obvious that Toyo cared for his OC, he wanted the audience to care too, so he put a lot of weight into Merus dying compared to everyone else who ever died or got erased. Which is another common fanfic mistake.

[Kinokima]

Are we sure Merus is completely Toyo’s OC? The one thing we know that Toriyama came up for this arc was the Merus was an Angel. Perhaps everything else about Merus is all Toyo but at the very least I don’t think we can say that for certain.

[Tamagon]

I liked Merus' death but I admit that's largely due to how much I like the concept. With how utterly awful the divine hierarchy is, it's refreshing to see someone who wants to fix things. It could be done way better for sure and I hope the anime does the idea proper justice.

It's interesting that Merus being an angel was a Toriyama idea because everything about the character so far hinges on him being an angel, honestly.