Does anyone else feel that much of the DB fandom enforces low standards?

[Skar]

Super is also repeating many of the mistakes of old DB so at the very least it's the same show we had in the past, but you're not a kid anymore so now you notice it.

This is an example of what we were discussing in the first few pages of this thread. The original series has been criticized and analyzed since the early 2000's. The only way to assume it's flaws are only being noticed now is if someone had only recently joined the forum and missed out on all those discussions.

It's not setting the bar too high for DBS because this is a basic expectation of sequels and applies to movies, shows, video games, or any kind of follow-up in general. The fact that they're acknowledged as mistakes means they're not benefiting the story to repeat them. Mistakes aren't a quota that need to be filled like "the original did this X many times therefore it's okay for the sequel to repeat it". If a sequel repeats the same mistakes, it adds to the overall problems of the franchise.

I think the easiest way to judge if low standards are being used for DBS is seeing how fans reacted to the same ideas when they've appeared in fanfiction. DB fanfiction has existed since the late 1990's so it's inevitable that many ideas we see now have been covered before. For example, there have been plenty of OC Saiyans but I've never seen anyone say "Goten and Trunks diminished SSJ therefore it's perfectly acceptable if my OC achieves even more transformations than them with less work". Fanfiction has lower standards since they're made by amateurs but no one tries to excuse their bad ideas by pointing out the original also did it.

[Matches Malone]

It's not setting the bar too high for DBS because this is a basic expectation of sequels and applies to movies, shows, video games, or any kind of follow-up in general. The fact that they're acknowledged as mistakes means they're not benefiting the story to repeat them. Mistakes aren't a quota that need to be filled like "the original did this X many times therefore it's okay for the sequel to repeat it". If a sequel repeats the same mistakes, it adds to the overall problems of the franchise.

It seems like expecting anything from Super is too much to ask for, at least according to its fanboys. The majority of demands are nothing we wouldn't ask of anything else, be it anime or otherwise. The biggest problem with Super is that not only is it repeating past mistakes (which have been called out on countless times), it's bringing in new ones as well.

[The Bastard.]

Super is also repeating many of the mistakes of old DB so at the very least it's the same show we had in the past, but you're not a kid anymore so now you notice it.

This is an example of what we were discussing in the first few pages of this thread. The original series has been criticized and analyzed since the early 2000's. The only way to assume it's flaws are only being noticed now is if someone had only recently joined the forum and missed out on all those discussions.

It's not setting the bar too high for DBS because this is a basic expectation of sequels and applies to movies, shows, video games, or any kind of follow-up in general. The fact that they're acknowledged as mistakes means they're not benefiting the story to repeat them. Mistakes aren't a quota that need to be filled like "the original did this X many times therefore it's okay for the sequel to repeat it". If a sequel repeats the same mistakes, it adds to the overall problems of the franchise.

I think the easiest way to judge if low standards are being used for DBS is seeing how fans reacted to the same ideas when they've appeared in fanfiction. DB fanfiction has existed since the late 1990's so it's inevitable that many ideas we see now have been covered before. For example, there have been plenty of OC Saiyans but I've never seen anyone say "Goten and Trunks diminished SSJ therefore it's perfectly acceptable if my OC achieves even more transformations than them with less work". Fanfiction has lower standards since they're made by amateurs but no one tries to excuse their bad ideas by pointing out the original also did it.

No one is saying Super is a better show because it has the same flaws as the original show.

People are fuelled by nostalgia and will use 2 different measures for the same weight. Trunks and Goten reaching SSJ the way they did is fine, the in-universe reasons are fine and explained, thus, Kale and Kaulifla reaching SSJ the way they did is fine and has a in-universe reason for doing so. What people are doing here is calling Kaulifla out as a Mary Sue ignoring the fact that Goten and Trunks exist and did the same exact thing. Then people argue that they want the show how it was before, again, nostalgia, when the show has tons of passion put into it but also plenty of issues, but, at the same time, we had 2 very good movies that are perfectly paced and introduce new things, characters, ideas and shake the franchise and make things more exciting.

Super is doing new things but it fails in many technical aspects due to a lack of time and budget, when the artists are given both we get Super Broly and BoG, the 2 best movies in the entire franchise, which is no different than DB of old, in fact the Filler in both was bad in the first half and unbearable in the latter one, so at least in this aspect it is better, the ToP flows nicely and we don't have any 5 minutes scenes of the same shot at different Angles at every other commercial brake.

Your argument for seeing if it's low standard or not doesn't work, I don't care for Kale and Kaulifla reaching SSJ the way they did, and seeing how them are fan favorites, many also don't, just people that nitpick and wanting their nostalgia tingles in the back (see what I did there) but will never get them again.

The original run will not cease to exist, it will always be there, with it's flaws and good things, for you to rewatch at leisure, we will compare it to new work and that's fine, what's not fine is complaining about it being Goku's show( oh no! ) Like it always was, the sanctity of cannon and other quirks of the franchise, it's not supposed to be deep, it's a show aimed at young boys wanting their quota of screams and punched, don't expect more than it.

If this thread was only about technical issues I would agree, but it isn't, it's about what people don't agree when it comes to storytelling and cannon, and how they want it just like it was, this is the issue for me.

[Skar]

People are fuelled by nostalgia and will use 2 different measures for the same weight. Trunks and Goten reaching SSJ the way they did is fine, the in-universe reasons are fine and explained, thus, Kale and Kaulifla reaching SSJ the way they did is fine and has a in-universe reason for doing so. What people are doing here is calling Kaulifla out as a Mary Sue ignoring the fact that Goten and Trunks exist and did the same exact thing.

I don't mind that Kale was powerful because she's a mutated Saiyan and female version of Broly or that Caulifa achieving SSJ only like in the manga. I assume that's all Toriyama intended for her and Toei gave her SSJ2 and USSJ in the anime as extra fan service since they might've assumed we won't see her again after the ToP. I can accept that as reasoning but not pretending that her achieving both SSJ1 and SSJ2 in the same day is equivalent to Goten and Trunks having only SSJ1. Every Saiyan who had achieved SSJ2 had to train and it wasn't immediately after getting the first transformation so it's not equilovent to Goten and Trunks who have yet to reach SSJ2 despite all their training in the Buu saga. It's only the same weight if you're considering one similarity which is that they achieve a transformation easily but not far each example is taken.

If this thread was only about technical issues I would agree, but it isn't, it's about what people don't agree when it comes to storytelling and cannon, and how they want it just like it was, this is the issue for me.

The point of this thread was about short dismissive comments that attempt to shut down any sort of criticism. This topic was discussed in the first few pages of this thread and how accusing someone of "nostalgia goggles" is an example of those types of comments. It doesn't hold water because fans had the same criticism long before DBS existed for countless fanfic OCs. I don't have high expectations for DBS but I think it's fair to expect slightly more than I would for an amateur fanfiction. I've never seen a fanfic writer accuse someone of nostalgia when their stories get criticized so that argument has no place in a discussion of an official series.

[VegettoEX]

I've already given my two cents on several of these matters already earlier in the thread, but I did want to pop in to say that unironically using "fanboys" to describe another person or group who -- regardless of whether or not it's genuine -- are attempting to explain their preferences and opinions, you've already said everything that really needs to be said about your own position.

Do better. You're worth it, and the discussion is worth it.

[JulieYBM]

It reasons that transformation acquisition would need to be sped up when introducing new characters. It's a easier way of show how one character is in relation to another. Criticizing Kale and Caulifla achieving Super Saiyan 2 through battle in quick succession also ignores the historical reliance on kairological time. Long-running anime like Dragon Ball function on kairological time, how long it feels like something began than the actual time. Character development in general occurs differently in these types of series. This is why Trunks and Goten look the same as they did in 1996 and why Satoshi is still ten despite 1,100 episodes of Pokemon having aired.

[UI Peter]

The term Mary Sue was literally coined by a woman trying to disparage young Star Trek fangirls who were trying to express themselves through writing fan fiction. The term is inherently used to weed out women from fandom.

It was created to mock badly written fanfic characters, regardless of gender.

[JulieYBM]

The term Mary Sue was literally coined by a woman trying to disparage young Star Trek fangirls who were trying to express themselves through writing fan fiction. The term is inherently used to weed out women from fandom.

It was created to mock badly written fanfic characters, regardless of gender.

https://journal.transformativeworks.org ... ew/243/205

Paula Smith talks about how she coined and spread the term while dunking on teen Trek fangirls while she was a 20-something grad student.

The origin is literally "LOL, these dumb girls are just writing themselves into their shitty fan fics lulz lets make fun of them".

[UI Peter]

The term Mary Sue was literally coined by a woman trying to disparage young Star Trek fangirls who were trying to express themselves through writing fan fiction. The term is inherently used to weed out women from fandom.

It was created to mock badly written fanfic characters, regardless of gender.

https://journal.transformativeworks.org ... ew/243/205

Paula Smith talks about how she coined and spread the term while dunking on teen Trek fangirls while she was a 20-something grad student.

The origin is literally "LOL, these dumb girls are just writing themselves into their shitty fan fics lulz lets make fun of them".

So mocking bad writing and dumb fans is sexist now smh?

[JulieYBM]

It was created to mock badly written fanfic characters, regardless of gender.

https://journal.transformativeworks.org ... ew/243/205

Paula Smith talks about how she coined and spread the term while dunking on teen Trek fangirls while she was a 20-something grad student.

The origin is literally "LOL, these dumb girls are just writing themselves into their shitty fan fics lulz lets make fun of them".

So mocking bad writing and dumb fans is sexist now smh?

When it's predominantly high school girls that are the focus of the original punch-down? Yeah. When the term is now predominantly only applied to female characters now? Yeah.

Hate to break it to you Peter but women can be shitty towards women, too.

[Skar]

It reasons that transformation acquisition would need to be sped up when introducing new characters. It's a easier way of show how one character is in relation to another. Criticizing Kale and Caulifla achieving Super Saiyan 2 through battle in quick succession also ignores the historical reliance on kairological time. Long-running anime like Dragon Ball function on kairological time, how long it feels like something began than the actual time. Character development in general occurs differently in these types of series. This is why Trunks and Goten look the same as they did in 1996 and why Satoshi is still ten despite 1,100 episodes of Pokemon having aired.

I could be misunderstanding because I'm not sure how this applies to Caulifla. Goten and Trunks look the same because we're only a few years after the Buu saga in-universe (even though they're as old as Future Trunks during the TV special) and Ash is an anime character who never ages. I'm talking about the passage of time for her achieve SSJ2 relative to the other Saiyans who also have the form. There weren't any complaints about Cabba obtaining SSJ2 in the anime because that was a year after the Champa saga and he likely trained since then. Toei could've easily left Caulifla with only SSJ1 like in the manga since she didn't stand a chance against Goku until she fused.

[JulieYBM]

It reasons that transformation acquisition would need to be sped up when introducing new characters. It's a easier way of show how one character is in relation to another. Criticizing Kale and Caulifla achieving Super Saiyan 2 through battle in quick succession also ignores the historical reliance on kairological time. Long-running anime like Dragon Ball function on kairological time, how long it feels like something began than the actual time. Character development in general occurs differently in these types of series. This is why Trunks and Goten look the same as they did in 1996 and why Satoshi is still ten despite 1,100 episodes of Pokemon having aired.

I could be misunderstanding because I'm not sure how this applies to Caulifla. Goten and Trunks look the same because we're only a few years after the Buu saga in-universe (even though they're as old as Future Trunks during the TV special) and Ash is an anime character who never ages. I'm talking about the passage of time for her achieve SSJ2 relative to the other Saiyans who also have the form. There weren't any complaints about Cabba obtaining SSJ2 in the anime because that was a year after the Champa saga and he likely trained since then. Toei could've easily left Caulifla with only SSJ1 like in the manga since she didn't stand a chance against Goku until she fused.

I'm saying don't correlate in-universe development with in-universe time, because generally speaking anime likes to focus on a short era within the story's timeline to only change the status quo in minimal ways while also balancing out the need for development. So, Goten and Trunks remain looking the same while Gokuu has gone off and acquired three new transformations.

Furthermore, the Tournament of Power is a great example of this. Only 48 minutes pass but those 48 minutes are stretched across 33 episodes. That is kairological time.

I might need to log into my account and post on a computer again to really write out a full post at this rate.

[WittyUsername]

I never saw anything fundamentally wrong with terms like ‘Mary Sue’ or ‘Gary Stu’, but I never paid much attention to the origin of the terms anyway. Still, I wouldn’t use the term to describe Caulifla and Kale. They’re not really presented as these flawless female characters. I suppose you could argue that the anime leans slightly more into this idea than the manga does, but I still don’t think they’d qualify.

[Skar]

I'm saying don't correlate in-universe development with in-universe time, because generally speaking anime likes to focus on a short era within the story's timeline to only change the status quo in minimal ways while also balancing out the need for development. So, Goten and Trunks remain looking the same while Gokuu has gone off and acquired three new transformations.

Didn't the original series also use this kairological time? I'm pretty sure that isn't the reason why Goten and Trunks haven't changed because they look younger than Future Trunks at the same age. I always assumed that was the more popular look for them or they weren't relevant to the story so Toriyama didn't care to redesign them.

[WittyUsername]

I'm saying don't correlate in-universe development with in-universe time, because generally speaking anime likes to focus on a short era within the story's timeline to only change the status quo in minimal ways while also balancing out the need for development. So, Goten and Trunks remain looking the same while Gokuu has gone off and acquired three new transformations.

Didn't the original series also use this kairological time? I'm pretty sure that isn't the reason why Goten and Trunks haven't changed because they look younger than Future Trunks at the same age. I always assumed that was the more popular look for them or they weren't relevant to the story so Toriyama didn't care to redesign them.

I think Toei/Toyotaro/Toriyama/whoever wants to keep things as safe and familiar as possible, which is why none of the child characters are allowed to age. It’s the same thing with Marron, who still looks like a toddler, even though she should be older than Goten and Trunks were during the Boo saga.

[Matches Malone]

I think Toei/Toyotaro/Toriyama/whoever wants to keep things as safe and familiar as possible, which is why none of the child characters are allowed to age. It’s the same thing with Marron, who still looks like a toddler, even though she should be older than Goten and Trunks were during the Boo saga.

Forget about actual character design changes, we can't even get a simple outfit change for Goku and Vegeta. Changes to the characters outfits and appearances was one of the best things about the original manga, yet somehow they left that behind.

[LoganForkHands73]

I think Toei/Toyotaro/Toriyama/whoever wants to keep things as safe and familiar as possible, which is why none of the child characters are allowed to age. It’s the same thing with Marron, who still looks like a toddler, even though she should be older than Goten and Trunks were during the Boo saga.

Forget about actual character design changes, we can't even get a simple outfit change for Goku and Vegeta. Changes to the characters outfits and appearances was one of the best things about the original manga, yet somehow they left that behind.

I wish they'd have at least kept Goku's Resurrection F redesign for longer. On the surface, it wasn't a major change, but it was an excellently simple, modern update of a classic design. I appreciate that they did the same with Vegeta by experimenting with his look, but I've honestly never been a huge fan of the grey suit. Though to be fair, Super: Broly gave Vegeta a much darker navy-blue suit similar to the one he wore on Namek which looks fantastic and I hope that they keep using that.

I appreciate the arguments that Vegeta should never go back to wearing Saiyan armour full stop because of his character arc in Z ending with him wearing a normal human training jumpsuit. However, I'm not against him wearing variants of the classic armoured look, so long as they spice it up occasionally and keep it interesting. As much as I like the bright blue suit, it's gotta go.

Goku going back to a black undershirt in Heroes is okay but what I'd want more than anything is something like this used in an actual story:

[Matches Malone]

Spoiler:

This isn't official is it ?

[LoganForkHands73]

Spoiler:

This isn't official is it ?

Oh yes it is. Check out Chapter 173 on Kanzenshuu. https://www.kanzenshuu.com/manga/chp-173/

[Matches Malone]

Oh yes it is. Check out Chapter 173 on Kanzenshuu. https://www.kanzenshuu.com/manga/chp-173/

I had no idea it was official, much less from Toriyama himself. I'd love to get something like that.