How Would Moro Arc Piccolo Fare In DBZ?

[The Undying]

Piccolo teaming up with Gohan or using Makankosappo (a technique that far outstrips the user's current power when fully charged) doesn't necessarily prove he's pushing god tiers, and the only direct statement we get from the manga is Goku vaguely acknowledging he's a lot stronger now.

I think SS3 level is probably a safe bet, but again, it's too ambiguous to decisively say one way or the other. We only know that Gohan and 17 are god-level because the story was pretty explicit about it.

[BWri]

Piccolo teaming up with Gohan or using Makankosappo (a technique that far outstrips the user's current power when fully charged) doesn't necessarily prove he's pushing god tiers, and the only direct statement we get from the manga is Goku vaguely acknowledging he's a lot stronger now.

I think SS3 level is probably a safe bet, but again, it's too ambiguous to decisively say one way or the other. We only know that Gohan and 17 are god-level because the story was pretty explicit about it.

I agree but when Piccolo's taking the same blows that #17 is taking and lasting longer and taking even more of them while #17 is still on the floor, I don't think you need anyone in the story to specifically say that he's at least as strong if not much stronger. The feat speaks for itself. Goku's statement just backs that up.

[Peach]

Seems like he's weaker than Cell, but smart enough to outsmart and hurt opponents at Cell's level (judging by how he beat SSJ2 Gohan in their sparring).

Basically, somewhat weaker than Cell, but smarter and more durable.

[theherodjl]

Seems like he's weaker than Cell, but smart enough to outsmart and hurt opponents at Cell's level (judging by how he beat SSJ2 Gohan in their sparring).

Basically, somewhat weaker than Cell, but smarter and more durable.

That was Piccolo just before the ToP. By the time Moro arrives on Earth, Piccolo has spent months training both by himself and with Gohan so he's probably improved quite a bit since. He'd probably steamroll Cell at his current level.

[The Undying]

I agree but when Piccolo's taking the same blows that #17 is taking and lasting longer and taking even more of them while #17 is still on the floor, I don't think you need anyone in the story to specifically say that he's at least as strong if not much stronger. The feat speaks for itself. Goku's statement just backs that up.

When Jaco is shown taking the same blow from a fighter like Saganbo that also easily knocks Piccolo down and being not much worse for wear, I think you might. Endurance and durability "feats" in DB were never exactly the most linear/concrete measurements for a character's strength.

Any level of power that starts with Super Saiyan God as the bare minimum is treated as exceptional in the manga, even as recently as the Universe Survival and early-mid Galactic Patrol Prisoner arcs. Gohan being here makes sense because his potential is known for being practically limitless, and in 17's case, almost catching up to Goku and Vegeta after just fighting poachers is something of a gag (although Volume 8's bonus chapter does go a little more in-depth). Trunks, in contrast, trained his ass off for several years and was only on par with Goku's Super Saiyan 3 form.

I don't really have a problem with Piccolo belonging to one of the god-level tiers, I'm just not convinced that's actually the case without more specific acknowledgment than what we have. It's still far too vague to make any kind of judgment call.

[Koitsukai]

To be completely fair, we don't have much to go by vs Saganbo, and 17 suffered a bigger blow than Piccolo did. He got grabbed by the head, spinned around and slammed against the floor, just like Gohan, while Piccolo only took a punch to the nose in the next chapter.

In favour of Piccolo is the fact that he was part of the only set of 2 fighters still standing, but that really doesn't tell us much because who knows how the fight developed after 17 and Gohan hit the floor with their faces.

What happened off-screen? did Saganbo kept beating up Gohan and 17 like before and the weaker of those two got left behind and then Piccolo stepped in? is that not possible at all?
- Is it also impossible to think the androids fought first and considering they have the weakest fighter of the 4 (#18), that team suffered dearly? - Could it not be that 17 had to Z-assist to protect his weak sister thus ending up more battered than Piccolo who in return didn't have a weaker partner to protect?

My point being there are too many assumptions to be made in this case, is a really vague fight to reach any conclusive result, in my opinion.

[BWri]

I agree but when Piccolo's taking the same blows that #17 is taking and lasting longer and taking even more of them while #17 is still on the floor, I don't think you need anyone in the story to specifically say that he's at least as strong if not much stronger. The feat speaks for itself. Goku's statement just backs that up.

When Jaco is shown taking the same blow from a fighter like Saganbo that also easily knocks Piccolo down and being not much worse for wear, I think you might. Endurance and durability "feats" in DB were never exactly the most linear/concrete measurements for a character's strength.

Jaco never took direct blows like #18 or Piccolo. He was brushed aside using either wind or the body of another character.

Endurance and durability "feats" in DB were never exactly the most linear/concrete measurements for a character's strength.

And that's why I say I agree with you to a point. The thing is, they are still a good indicator of strength. If you can take a direct attack from a villain and get up to fight again that usually means you aren't too far from their level of power. If you are too far, then you get the Krillin v. Cell treatment. If Saganbo punched Jaco like he did Piccolo, I think we can all agree that Jaco would be dead. There's a reason he wasn't attacked directly by Saganbo and Moro (plot armor), while Piccolo and #18 were just like Gohan and #17.

Any level of power that starts with Super Saiyan God as the bare minimum is treated as exceptional in the manga, even as recently as the Universe Survival and early-mid Galactic Patrol Prisoner arcs.

Goku did literally say that he can barely recognize Piccolo and Gohan. That's only a compliment characters receive when they are unbelievably stronger than they previously were. I believe Vegeta gets this same compliment later when he shows up to fight Moro after his Yardrat training.

The thing is, characters don't often compliment others for reaching beyond previous arcs either. Their relevance is typically only acknowledged compared to the current arc. If T.O.P. Gohan was only as strong as SSG BoG Goku then chances are Goku wouldn't have acknowledged his increase in power during his fight with Kefla. It wouldn't have necessarily been relevant to the current situation. Anime Goku acknowledges just about everyone, but manga Goku doesn't so much do this. So his statement to Piccolo and Gohan means something, especially when you consider that Gohan's strength was already acknowledged during the T.O.P. It means he and Piccolo really put in some work.

Gohan being here makes sense because his potential is known for being practically limitless, and in 17's case, almost catching up to Goku and Vegeta after just fighting poachers is something of a gag (although Volume 8's bonus chapter does go a little more in-depth). Trunks, in contrast, trained his ass off for several years and was only on par with Goku's Super Saiyan 3 form.

To be fair, none of those instances would be acceptable if they weren't already written. No one in the fanbase would have ever considered #17 to be a top tier fighter after the Buu saga until Toriyama and Toyotaro wrote it that way. Toyotaro made it make more sense but still.

My point is, it's not a reality until the author dubs it as such. Making sense, as you put it, is a term that barely belongs in modern Dragon Ball. Everything is indeed based on the whims of the writers, internal consistency be damned.

That said, at least in Piccolo's case, a consistent trend follows. His potential is incredible when he trains with someone stronger than himself as seen after he trains with SSJ Goku. Outside of Frieza and #17, Piccolo probably has the best training gains in the entire series. I'm talking pure training, no transformations or powerups.

I don't really have a problem with Piccolo belonging to one of the god-level tiers, I'm just not convinced that's actually the case without more specific acknowledgment than what we have. It's still far too vague to make any kind of judgment call.

I'm the opposite. I have no problem placing Piccolo below that margin either, which is why I like your assessment. It's why I lowball him when I make a statement. My lowball is SSJ3 level (in relation to current Goku/Vegeta) with massively amped SBC and self-destruct. But I honestly think he's easily BoG SSG and cresting on RoF SSB levels if not having surpassed it already.

My only issue is when others completely invalidate the gains he's made. I saw Perfect Cell-tier and Cell Jr-tier. I know the power scaling isn't always clear, but no one can really believe that he is still Perfect Cell-tier. But it's no surprise, Piccolo's been downplayed since the days of the Base Saiyans > Piccolo debate during the Buu saga. Super's clearly dispelled with that silly notion.

To be completely fair, we don't have much to go by vs Saganbo, and 17 suffered a bigger blow than Piccolo did. He got grabbed by the head, spinned around and slammed against the floor, just like Gohan, while Piccolo only took a punch to the nose in the next chapter.

I've been grabbed/swung around, slammed, and punched in the face before. The punch hurt more. I think its even worse when you consider that all the ki is concentrated in Saganbo's fist while the ground has no ki. Plunging into the ground would likely do less damage now that it did in Dragon Ball, even with Saganbo slamming you into it.

[Koitsukai]

To be completely fair, we don't have much to go by vs Saganbo, and 17 suffered a bigger blow than Piccolo did. He got grabbed by the head, spinned around and slammed against the floor, just like Gohan, while Piccolo only took a punch to the nose in the next chapter.

I've been grabbed/swung around, slammed, and punched in the face before. The punch hurt more. I think its even worse when you consider that all the ki is concentrated in Saganbo's fist while the ground has no ki. Plunging into the ground would likely do less damage now that it did in Dragon Ball, even with Saganbo slamming you into it.

By Saganbo? because that's the only case our personal experiences might be relevant here.

In any case, nobody was taking more damage than the other to be conclusive about it.

[Cipher]

My only issue is when others completely invalidate the gains he's made. I saw Perfect Cell-tier and Cell Jr-tier. I know the power scaling isn't always clear, but no one can really believe that he is still Perfect Cell-tier. But it's no surprise, Piccolo's been downplayed since the days of the Base Saiyans > Piccolo debate during the Buu saga. Super's clearly dispelled with that silly notion.

???

He is demonstrably so (or rather, slightly below it) for most of the first part of Super, and has received all of ... one comment about having powered up since, with no action to contextualize it besides a team fight that also includes #18, who is not said or shown to have powered up at all.

It’s not impossible he’s meant to be stronger, but it certainly seems like that assumption is the stretch, rather than the reading that he’s just gotten somewhat stronger than he was previously cemented as being. Radical power-increases like those of Gohan’s, #17’s and Trunks’ are much belabored by the series. This isn’t about “making sense”—if the series wants to tell us next month that Piccolo could beat up a Super Saiyan God, it can—but about reading it on its own terms. It hasn’t been one to leave characters catching up to that extent unsaid. If it does it now, that’s something new.

This question is surely the “are the humans stronger than Freeza now?” of Super. But we found out later that, despite dialogue about having powered up, staying in for fights in the Android arc, etc—they weren’t.

[BWri]

By Saganbo? because that's the only case our personal experiences might be relevant here.

In any case, nobody was taking more damage than the other to be conclusive about it.

Then that means Piccolo and #18 took the same damage as #17 and Gohan. That doesn't sound like the point you were making before.

To be completely fair, we don't have much to go by vs Saganbo, and 17 suffered a bigger blow than Piccolo did.

???

He is demonstrably so (or rather, slightly below it) for most of the first part of Super, and has received all of ... one comment about having powered up since, with no action to contextualize it besides a team fight that also includes #18, who is not said or shown to have powered up at all.

I can only assume you haven't seen any of his fights in Super or paid much attention to them, or you've just lowballed every single character to their absolute lowest point beyond what's evident in the fights. If everyone needed a statement to contextualize power then we wouldn't be able to figure out how strong the vast majority of the cast is. But the thing is, Piccolo has statements under his belt as well, as far back as the U6 arc. More importantly, he has feats. There are even reactions from other characters to consider.

Radical power-increases like those of Gohan’s, #17’s and Trunks’ are much belabored by the series.

Not always and certainly not for all side-characters. Some progression has been more subtle like with the U6 cast.

It’s not impossible he’s meant to be stronger, but it certainly seems like that assumption is the stretch

That's coming across as more conservative than what the story is presenting. Like I said above, you'd have to lowball all the characters lower than what the story is presenting to get the notion that Piccolo is Cell's level (or lower as some folks have said). You'd have to ignore the progression Goku/Vegeta has made, the progression Frieza has made and the progression Piccolo has made.

if the series wants to tell us next month that Piccolo could beat up a Super Saiyan God, it can—but about reading it on its own terms.

Right, but this also means feats, reactions, and fighting comparative opponents along with direct statements. Communication is delivered through many avenues especially in visual media.

It hasn’t been one to leave characters catching up to that extent unsaid. If it does it now, that’s something new.

I'm not sure if this is true, but I'll bite. Piccolo has had at least two statements from the anime that indicate a major power increase from RoF along with two statements from the manga. Not to mention even more feats.

This question is surely the “are the humans stronger than Freeza now?” of Super. But we found out later that, despite dialogue about having powered up, staying in for fights in the Android arc, etc—they weren’t.

In the anime, this is actually questionable. Krillin was certainly fighting on par with #18 and Roshi seemed even more impressive than Krillin. I don't want to open that can of worms though.

I get your premise, Cipher, I really do understand it, but I think you take it too far. Being conservative and safe for accuracy's sake is one thing and it's commendable, I try to do it as much as possible but if you play it too safe to the point where you ignore what the story is presenting then you miss its point. There is absolutely 0% chance that the Piccolo who is directly fighting against Saganbo and Moro is as strong or weaker than Perfect Cell.

[Cipher]

I can only assume you haven't seen any of his fights in Super or paid much attention to them, or you've just lowballed every single character to their absolute lowest point beyond what's evident in the fights. If everyone needed a statement to contextualize power then we wouldn't be able to figure out how strong the vast majority of the cast is. But the thing is, Piccolo has statements under his belt as well, as far back as the U6 arc. More importantly, he has feats. There are even reactions from other characters to consider.

This is really wading into the weeds, but let's look at the totality of said fights, between the post-revival movies and Super manga:

Spoiler:

Battle of Gods: Put down instantly by Beerus along with the rest of the cast; neither here nor there, but tossing it in for completeness' sake.

Resurrection "F": His fight with Shishamo certainly raises some questions about the latter's power, but in terms of Piccolo himself, it's made clear that he's weaker than Super Saiyan Gohan. Since this is a Gohan who has powered down from his highest Boo-arc levels, to the point of "only" being able to reach Super Saiyan, Piccolo is rather explicitly still weaker than the Boo arc Saiyans, who were equivalent to the Cell arc Saiyans (Gohan, in Super Saiyan, can fight evenly with but struggles to put down Dabra, who is said to be roughly even with Cell). This keeps Piccolo where he should last have been in the Cell arc, after his pre-Cell Games trip through the Room of Spirit and Time: Stronger than the Androids and quite possibly first-form Cell (who had put a hole through his chest earlier in the arc), but not strong enough to be a contender with Perfect Cell or the Super Saiyan Goku and Gohan who amaze everyone by fighting him.

Universe 6 arc: Piccolo is told outright that he won't be able to defeat Frost, and admits as much himself as he begins the match. However, he is able to keep Frost from achieving a quick victory, as well as get under his skin, through clever use of long-distance techniques. His tactics and the energy he's forcing Frost to expend are enough to prompt the later to use his poison needle again.

Piccolo's dialogue (my own translations, as I only have the Japanese version on hand): "I may not be able to defeat you, but ... I have some methods of not being defeated myself."

Goku and Vegeta's dialogue toward Piccolo once the match starts: "Hey! Piccolo's doin' pretty well!" "However, he's still being forced on the defensive. He may be forcing Frost to use power, but Piccolo's is dropping even faster. Though he does seem to be getting under his skin."

That is it. It's basically the opposite of the kind of dialogue the series goes for when a fighter has had an unexpected boost of strength. (See, in Super alone: Trunks, #17, Gohan, Boo, in the Moro arc.) Piccolo exceeds expectations with his defensive tactics, but he's still weaker than Super Saiyans, who can easily defeat Frost. (Even allowing for their years in the Room of Spirit and time, the difference here appears not to be too drastic.) If the series wanted to hint at a power increase for Piccolo to accompany his unexpectedly good performance, this was the space for it, but it forgoes doing so rather pointedly. Conclusion: No to minimal change.

Future Trunks arc: Doesn't fight.

Tournament of Power arc: Chapter 34: Scattered by Magetta (meaningless); clashes punches and makes a strained face while fighting Universe 9's large blue spiky guy, who he comments he expected to only rely on his size, but is proving to be fairly strong/skillfull as well; is picked up and dragged into the air by Universe 9's bat guy, and saved by Gohan, who is still not using his full power (read: his "ultimate" state, in fan terms)--we know this, because he explicitly tells Gohan to refrain from using his full power so early a few pages later, when the two of them face down the whole U9 team; a few pages later, a full-power Frost effortelssly tosses blue spiky guy out of the ring (make of this what you will; only including it for the thouroughness' sake); comments that the Trio de Danger, who had given a reserved Gohan trouble in tandem earlier, are nothing special while apart, and defeats Bergamo rather easily off-page

Comments on Piccolo's strength: None. Struggles against two opponents (one of whom Frost beats), beats one. Is saved once by a reserved Gohan, and also beats one enemy who had given the same Gohan trouble via coordinated group attacks.

Chapter 36: Defeats a minor fighter from Universe 2 with one blast; is amazed by #17's ability to rubber-band Botamo out of the ring with one punch; easily defeats Universe 10's sumo-wrestler fighter; joins #17 and Gohan in fighting the last three Universe 10 fighters, mostly off-page, though that fight is broken up by Universe 4's invisible fighter, Gamisaras, before it concludes; Piccolo senses and easily blasts Gamisaras out of the ring; Piccolo strikes and and misses Universe 4's bug fighter, Daimon, and is knocked out of the ring by a surprise strike

Comments on Piccolo's strength: None. Mostly fights mooks, so it's hard to make anything of his actual fights in this chapter. Likewise, his defeat seems to come more due to the surprise of the strike than the strength of the opponent.

Chapter 39: No fighting for Piccolo (obviously), but this does contain his commentary on Gohan's new strength, as the latter fights Kefla. His line: さすが悟飯だ。短時間の修行では闘いの勘を取り戻すので精一杯だったが...この闘いの中でさらに進化して以前より強くなっている。 "Gohan truly is incredible. It took everything he (or "we," ambigious) had to get his fighting senses back in such a short time, but he's grown even stronger during the course of his battles here." I bring this up mostly to point out that it makes no commentary as to Piccolo's role in the training, and indicates that Gohan's further growth beyond the realm of his initial Elder Kaioshin power-up is attributed to Gohan's own growth during the ToP.

So, we leave the arc with: No meaningful statements about any power increases for Piccolo, and no opponents to provide any kind of clear scaling to that effect. Nothing reads out of place with the idea that he isn't substantially stronger than he was in the U6 arc, where he wasn't substantially stronger than in "F," where he was demonstratably not substantially stronger than in the Boo or Cell arcs.

Which leaves us with the...

Moro arc: A relatively short amount of time has passed since the ToP/Broly, given appearances and ages (Bra and Pan still babies, etc.). Piccolo fights the Macareni Siblings during their scouting of Earth, which tells us little, given that they aren't proper fighters. He fights Seven-Three alongside Gohan (or rather, is saved by Gohan) during his and Shimorekka's first trip to the planet. Then, finally, in the chapters that sparked this thread, is given his first direct dialogue regarding power in Super: Goku complementing both his and Gohan's growth on the other side of a two-month training period. His fighting at this point consists primarily of the group performances detailed at length in other posts, which I'd argue doesn't give us a whole lot, if not only for the fact it also involves #18, infamous for not actively training when there isn't money in the line, and who is certainly never spared any dialogue about power-ups. There's also nary a solitary moment for Piccolo with which the series asks us to appraise him.

Moro does stop Piccolo from charging his attack after he's set up the barrier, but 1) Piccolo is specific about attributing any success to his attack to the fact that Moro's sealed in, so ... it's skirting a moment to really sell us on a massive power-increase again, 2) Moro's taking out errybody; even #18 and Jaco, 3) even Tenshinhan manages to hurt Cell with a specific attack; Chaozu is confident he can sacrifice himself to take out Nappa, etc. Those kinds of moments have never been the ones the series turns to for smoking-gun, reader-clarity, "Oh, this character is much stronger now" beats.

Conclusion: Piccolo is noticably stronger than he was--for the first demonstratable time at any point in Super, and arguably, looking at the length the U6 arc's dialogue goes to specifically avoid attributing his performance to strength, for the first time in Super period. But to what extent is unclear.

I don't have a grudge against Piccolo. I don't have an issue with large strength jumps when the story makes it clear. That's just ... what's on the page. A lot of demonstratable lack of major growth, and then one comment as to some. That's ... that's it. I can't pull more out of thin air.

"Well, why couldn't that 'some' mean 'a lot' in this case?" you might ask.

But, ah, ye unfortunate soul who has waded so far into a sincere power-scaling post as to see this: read on.

You'd have to ignore the progression Goku/Vegeta has made, the progression Frieza has made and the progression Piccolo has made.

The difference between Goku, Vegeta and Freeza's progression and Piccolo's supposed one is that the former three are aggressively confirmed--in action against opponents whose strength we can easily ascertain, in dialogue such as Goku telling Vegeta he may not be able to beat the Freeza he brings to the ToP (the story's big red flag for, "Hey, he has caught up to Goku and Vegeta again".)

But it isn't just them. Look for it across both DB and Super and you'll realize the remarkable, almost absurd mission they're on to reaffirm and even contextually scale big jumps where they happen. At the 22nd and 23rd Tenkaichi Budokais? Even though it's painfully obvious from presentation that all of the Turtle (and later Crane) students have improved, they aren't spared dialogue from observing characters to drive that point home. Saiyan arc? Power levels galore, to quantify each and every cast member's gains, even though the performances against Raditz-equivalent Saibaman and Nappa could easily speak for themselves. Goku's power-ups? Better believe we both see and hear about them. Kuririn and Gohan's power-ups from the Grand Elder? Clear as day, plus Gohan is specifically ready to at least stand his ground against Vegeta now so it's fully and readily contextualized. Where things might be murky, we get stand-in villains like Dabra. Super for its part, follows suit, and it doesn't just apply to the upper-echelon of fighters. Trunks' SS2 is confirmed in outrageously specific terms to be a match for Goku's SS3, even though it's below the then-relevant levels of power. #17 both puts SS3 Goku into a panic and is given post-arc dialogue about having more or less caught up to Goku/Vegeta. Freeza, I mentioned. Gohan's performance against Kefla at the ToP could easily speak for itself, but is given commentary from Kuririn, Goku and Piccolo to confirm how impressive his new increase is. Boo fighting Moro on Namek signals a clear power-up simply from the characters involved and one-sided nature of the fight, but it, too, can't go without commentary from Vegeta and Goku to confirm that--yes--Boo seems to have newly gotten really strong. (Unlike Piccolo, Boo in that scene is both fighting on his own and winning; nothing murky about the size of his jump, and it's then additionally doubled down on by dialogue.)

Perhaps the one situation where the original series doesn't go out of its way to belabor a strength increase? The humans between the Namek and Cell arcs. Hence the infamous old fandom constant of "Are they stronger than Freeza now or not?" But it turns out that in that case, there was no massively relevant, unspoken increase. They were stronger, to be sure, but the one time the series chose not to be very enthusiastic about explicitly contextualizing new power-ups through both action and dialogue? Confirmed by Beerus' dialogue in Battle of Gods to also be the one time, in Toriyama's mind, they hadn't eclipsed the villain from the previous arc.

The fact that the series doesn't provide Piccolo the same kind of doubled-down contextualizing those big jumps always get, much like the fact that it doesn't spare him dialogue on a power-up in the U6 arc at all (and pointedly does the opposite) is telling. As is the fact that it doesn't do it during the ToP. And so, based on one comment accompanied by half the usual specificity of the series in terms of either dialogue or performance, what am I supposed to think, except that the increase simply isn't intended to be that relevant, that large? All I have to go on are everything the series has shown and told us concerning Piccolo prior, and its own precedent for the way it has consisntetntly doubled down on clearly presenting and contextualizing strength increases of that degree. Give me Piccolo clearly beating an opponent who will allow us to understand the extent of a strength increase; give me a line of dialogue more clearly indicating where he stands; do either, or even both of those, as both series have always done, except in the one infamous case where the strength increase truly wasn't, in context, so significant.

Again, I could be wrong, as the series will go where it will. But it wouldn't be because I've somehow been blind to the way it has worked either generally, or in regard to Piccolo specifically, up to now.

In the anime, this is actually questionable. Krillin was certainly fighting on par with #18 and Roshi seemed even more impressive than Krillin. I don't want to open that can of worms though.

Who cares about the anime though (apply to both Z and Super, for this kind of conversation)

There is absolutely 0% chance that the Piccolo who is directly fighting against Saganbo and Moro is as strong or weaker than Perfect Cell.

But what then, if his presence in losing group fights against those characters is enough alone to discredit that notion, do we make of the #18 doing the same? (This is a rhetorical question, simply meant to point out that there's very clearly a character weaker than Perfect Cell involved in the same fights, and even causing Moro to dodge when attacking in tandem with a much stronger partner. You could argue #18 has powered up that much as well, but that's truly clutching at air, considering she doesn't even get a line on her power to the extent of Piccolo's, and pointedly expresses disinterest in training and fighting without prize money.)

But even on taken on its own? It's like saying the Tenshinhan who fights the androids couldn't be weaker than Freeza. But ... he is. And group fights simply don't offer much if everyone's losing horribly anyway.

I have absolutely no idea why I wound up typing such a wall of text about this. I guess just because I'm a bit floored by the idea not so much that someone would disagree with my reading, but see it as being so impossible (and even against the spirit of the series' specifics and presentation, instead of grounded in them). My tl;dr is that both series have always been very, very clear about making the audience aware of power jumps on that level, which this arc absolutely has not been for Piccolo (a character whom previous arcs have also actively dissuaded us from attributing any other big power-ups to since the Cell arc). Hence I'm left with, "Well, he's stronger than we left him in the Cell/Boo arcs/early Super, but not enough to have received that kind of greater contextualizing. So I guess ... Perfect Cell-ish." Anyway, Piccolo is a good, green boy.

[Koitsukai]

By Saganbo? because that's the only case our personal experiences might be relevant here.

In any case, nobody was taking more damage than the other to be conclusive about it.

Then that means Piccolo and #18 took the same damage as #17 and Gohan. That doesn't sound like the point you were making before.

To be completely fair, we don't have much to go by vs Saganbo, and 17 suffered a bigger blow than Piccolo did.

Actually it was, because the bolded part only included 17 and Piccolo (Gohan clearly took more damage than the rest) and was just me considering a slam against the floor worse than a punch, which is nothing but a subjective opinion seeing how you fairly believe the opposite due to personal experience.

My point was that there is nothing conclusive about it, they both got two or three panels of beating, 17 was on the frontline with Gohan, off-screen fight happens and then Gohan is seen "aided" by someone else. Just as I can't say 17 is stronger than Piccolo BASED on the damage he took even if I consider a slam > a punch, I have nothing substantial to definitively say just how strong Piccolo is.

Besides like I said in my first post, we don't even know how much damage they took off-screen, Toyo showed how it started and how it ended skipping the why. Going by just the punch he took isn't enough for me to confidently draw conclusions.

[The Undying]

To be fair, none of those instances would be acceptable if they weren't already written.

I find them acceptable enough in the manga. Trunks endured years of the most intense situations imaginable and only achieved SS3-like power, Gohan's potential (which is basically his whole shtick) to reach god-level strength with training was established as early as the Champa arc, and 17 at least gets some explanation via one of the bonus chapters.

Certain readers might find some of those explanations unsatisfying, but they're better than nothing. Even without them, these instances are always directly confirmed by the manga's dialogue; outside of ambiguous visual extrapolations and a not-quite-clear "I barely recognized you" statement, we're not really getting that from Piccolo thus far. That's why I think it's best to err on the side of caution with these characters unless it's specifically noted.

I don't think it's fair to call this some kind of "Piccolo downplay" or whatever. It's more that if Piccolo is somehow a god-level fighter - which, again, the story makes out to be a big deal as recently as the US arc's exhibition match and the GPP arc's training room - the manga isn't doing nearly as much as it normally does to demonstrate that. It's possible, and that's about all anyone can say at this point.

[ZombieVito]

He kills everything from Z.

Piccolo at the ToP was already base tier. Training with Ultimate Gohan for 2 months should put him at least on SS1 tier.

[BWri]

To be fair, none of those instances would be acceptable if they weren't already written.

Certain readers might find some of those explanations unsatisfying, but they're better than nothing. Even without them, these instances are always directly confirmed by the manga's dialogue; outside of ambiguous visual extrapolations and a not-quite-clear "I barely recognized you" statement, we're not really getting that from Piccolo thus far. That's why I think it's best to err on the side of caution with these characters unless it's specifically noted.

That's fair enough. I get where you're coming from and don't necessarily disagree. I put more stock into Goku's statement and what I've seen of Piccolo in combat. We seem to both put him at around abouts SSJ3 level so we don't disagree on much.

Spoiler:

Battle of Gods: Put down instantly by Beerus along with the rest of the cast; neither here nor there, but tossing it in for completeness' sake.

Resurrection "F": His fight with Shishamo certainly raises some questions about the latter's power, but in terms of Piccolo himself, it's made clear that he's weaker than Super Saiyan Gohan. Since this is a Gohan who has powered down from his highest Boo-arc levels, to the point of "only" being able to reach Super Saiyan, Piccolo is rather explicitly still weaker than the Boo arc Saiyans, who were equivalent to the Cell arc Saiyans (Gohan, in Super Saiyan, can fight evenly with but struggles to put down Dabra, who is said to be roughly even with Cell). This keeps Piccolo where he should last have been in the Cell arc, after his pre-Cell Games trip through the Room of Spirit and Time: Stronger than the Androids and quite possibly first-form Cell (who had put a hole through his chest earlier in the arc), but not strong enough to be a contender with Perfect Cell or the Super Saiyan Goku and Gohan who amaze everyone by fighting him.

Universe 6 arc: Piccolo is told outright that he won't be able to defeat Frost, and admits as much himself as he begins the match. However, he is able to keep Frost from achieving a quick victory, as well as get under his skin, through clever use of long-distance techniques. His tactics and the energy he's forcing Frost to expend are enough to prompt the later to use his poison needle again.

Piccolo's dialogue (my own translations, as I only have the Japanese version on hand): "I may not be able to defeat you, but ... I have some methods of not being defeated myself."

Goku and Vegeta's dialogue toward Piccolo once the match starts: "Hey! Piccolo's doin' pretty well!" "However, he's still being forced on the defensive. He may be forcing Frost to use power, but Piccolo's is dropping even faster. Though he does seem to be getting under his skin."

That is it. It's basically the opposite of the kind of dialogue the series goes for when a fighter has had an unexpected boost of strength. (See, in Super alone: Trunks, #17, Gohan, Boo, in the Moro arc.) Piccolo exceeds expectations with his defensive tactics, but he's still weaker than Super Saiyans, who can easily defeat Frost. (Even allowing for their years in the Room of Spirit and time, the difference here appears not to be too drastic.) If the series wanted to hint at a power increase for Piccolo to accompany his unexpectedly good performance, this was the space for it, but it forgoes doing so rather pointedly. Conclusion: No to minimal change.

Future Trunks arc: Doesn't fight.

Tournament of Power arc: Chapter 34: Scattered by Magetta (meaningless); clashes punches and makes a strained face while fighting Universe 9's large blue spiky guy, who he comments he expected to only rely on his size, but is proving to be fairly strong/skillfull as well; is picked up and dragged into the air by Universe 9's bat guy, and saved by Gohan, who is still not using his full power (read: his "ultimate" state, in fan terms)--we know this, because he explicitly tells Gohan to refrain from using his full power so early a few pages later, when the two of them face down the whole U9 team; a few pages later, a full-power Frost effortelssly tosses blue spiky guy out of the ring (make of this what you will; only including it for the thouroughness' sake); comments that the Trio de Danger, who had given a reserved Gohan trouble in tandem earlier, are nothing special while apart, and defeats Bergamo rather easily off-page

Comments on Piccolo's strength: None. Struggles against two opponents (one of whom Frost beats), beats one. Is saved once by a reserved Gohan, and also beats one enemy who had given the same Gohan trouble via coordinated group attacks.

Chapter 36: Defeats a minor fighter from Universe 2 with one blast; is amazed by #17's ability to rubber-band Botamo out of the ring with one punch; easily defeats Universe 10's sumo-wrestler fighter; joins #17 and Gohan in fighting the last three Universe 10 fighters, mostly off-page, though that fight is broken up by Universe 4's invisible fighter, Gamisaras, before it concludes; Piccolo senses and easily blasts Gamisaras out of the ring; Piccolo strikes and and misses Universe 4's bug fighter, Daimon, and is knocked out of the ring by a surprise strike

Comments on Piccolo's strength: None. Mostly fights mooks, so it's hard to make anything of his actual fights in this chapter. Likewise, his defeat seems to come more due to the surprise of the strike than the strength of the opponent.

Chapter 39: No fighting for Piccolo (obviously), but this does contain his commentary on Gohan's new strength, as the latter fights Kefla. His line: さすが悟飯だ。短時間の修行では闘いの勘を取り戻すので精一杯だったが...この闘いの中でさらに進化して以前より強くなっている。 "Gohan truly is incredible. It took everything he (or "we," ambigious) had to get his fighting senses back in such a short time, but he's grown even stronger during the course of his battles here." I bring this up mostly to point out that it makes no commentary as to Piccolo's role in the training, and indicates that Gohan's further growth beyond the realm of his initial Elder Kaioshin power-up is attributed to Gohan's own growth during the ToP.

So, we leave the arc with: No meaningful statements about any power increases for Piccolo, and no opponents to provide any kind of clear scaling to that effect. Nothing reads out of place with the idea that he isn't substantially stronger than he was in the U6 arc, where he wasn't substantially stronger than in "F," where he was demonstratably not substantially stronger than in the Boo or Cell arcs.

Which leaves us with the...

Moro arc: A relatively short amount of time has passed since the ToP/Broly, given appearances and ages (Bra and Pan still babies, etc.). Piccolo fights the Macareni Siblings during their scouting of Earth, which tells us little, given that they aren't proper fighters. He fights Seven-Three alongside Gohan (or rather, is saved by Gohan) during his and Shimorekka's first trip to the planet. Then, finally, in the chapters that sparked this thread, is given his first direct dialogue regarding power in Super: Goku complementing both his and Gohan's growth on the other side of a two-month training period. His fighting at this point consists primarily of the group performances detailed at length in other posts, which I'd argue doesn't give us a whole lot, if not only for the fact it also involves #18, infamous for not actively training when there isn't money in the line, and who is certainly never spared any dialogue about power-ups. There's also nary a solitary moment for Piccolo with which the series asks us to appraise him.

Moro does stop Piccolo from charging his attack after he's set up the barrier, but 1) Piccolo is specific about attributing any success to his attack to the fact that Moro's sealed in, so ... it's skirting a moment to really sell us on a massive power-increase again, 2) Moro's taking out errybody; even #18 and Jaco, 3) even Tenshinhan manages to hurt Cell with a specific attack; Chaozu is confident he can sacrifice himself to take out Nappa, etc. Those kinds of moments have never been the ones the series turns to for smoking-gun, reader-clarity, "Oh, this character is much stronger now" beats.

Conclusion: Piccolo is noticably stronger than he was--for the first demonstratable time at any point in Super, and arguably, looking at the length the U6 arc's dialogue goes to specifically avoid attributing his performance to strength, for the first time in Super period. But to what extent is unclear.

Much respect! You really really went into detail. I was trying to avoid that but I'll respect your time by giving it a proper read.

Pre-BoG: Goku fights and defeats mental images of Frieza, Cell, and Majin Buu while in SSJ. You can take this or leave it at face value. I take it to represent that Goku's SSJ is much stronger than it was previously.

RoF: This is properly where the downplay starts IMO. I don't see the logic in why you think Gohan is specifically at Cell saga levels of power. He was still using his Ultimate state as far as BoG. I'm not sure why he'd go all the way back to Cell Saga levels of power just because he's weaker than he was in BoG.

Gohan himself had gotten much stronger prior to Old Kai's release. In his base he was able to easily handle the Z-sword by the end of his training while Goku struggled with it when he arrived in the realm. Interpret that how you will.

We agree that Piccolo is lower than Perfect Cell but the degree must be vast. I don't think a character who's made the gains the Piccolo has made would be stuck at Semi-Cell level for very long, but then again there's a wide enough range between that and Perfect Cell for Piccolo to occupy comfortably. At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter how strong he was here but it does matter how strong Gohan was as a point of comparison.

U6: You bring up these statements that Piccolo is said to be outclassed, but you fail to mention that he managed to surprise and impress Goku in both mediums. You also fail to quantify how much power it would even take for him to be able to keep up with Frost. To understand Frost, you have to understand Goku. To understand Goku you have to first look at the previous arc.

In every version of the RoF story including the promo manga, SSJ Gohan is far outclassed by first form Frieza while Goku in base takes on the Final Form and pressures him into a transformation. This shows us that Goku's base far outstrips Gohan's SSJ, whether you want to put that at Cell level, MSSJ level, or what have you, it doesn't matter. This Goku is fighting at a level of power beyond the Cell saga if even Gohan is so far removed from Frieza's weaker form.

That Goku had an additional 3 years of training in the RoSaT with Vegeta another SSB level fighter. That same Goku and Vegeta both resorted to using SSJ to defeat Frost in his Final Form, like immediately no questions asked. Anime or manga, Goku deemed it necessary to use SSJ against Frost, while base was good enough for Frieza. Piccolo challenged this same Frost in the manga and forced him to use his full power in what effectively looked to be a stalemate until Frost cheated. Even if you downplay Piccolo here, the only logical conclusion to come to is that he is massively more powerful than he was in the Cell arc and Buu arc ... unless you reduce everyone to how strong they were in the Cell arc, Goku and Vegeta included, despite all of their training. I'm not sure how you could logically put him anywhere under the Buu saga after this fight.

The anime version has god-breaking feats at this point as well, directly mentioned by a literal god. He broke a barrier that Champa tested himself and stated "I would be humiliated if it got destroyed during the match". Piccolo's attack was amped, but you have to see my confusion at your insistence on holding him to Cell at this point, right? Clearly we're seeing power progression if Piccolo is even competing amongst these fighters to the degree that he is. He nearly defeated Frost in the anime and was standing his ground hand-to-hand in the manga. In both, Frost resorted to cheating because he could not easily dispose of Piccolo.

"No minimal change", as you say, makes no sense because Goku and Vegeta have been making drastic changes since the Cell arc.

ToP: You mention Gohan isn't using full power but you forget that no-one is using full power. When Frost, literally "goes all out" various fighters go out of their way to mention it because he is not pacing himself, Piccolo even warns Gohan not to use full power. All the other experienced fighters are pacing themselves. Even going all out, Frost briefly struggles with the same spiky blue guy Piccolo briefly skirmished with. Piccolo, unlike Frost who is stated to be going all out, was pacing himself. To me, this is a subtle implication that Piccolo is likely stronger than Frost since he's able to contend with the guy while using much less power, but I understand it's somewhat of a leap. We didn't see much of Piccolo's skirmish after all, just the clashing of fists and Piccolo's remarks that the guy is more than just power.

All in all there are no feats or statements that explicitly mention Piccolo has gotten stronger in this particular arc. But you know he never stops training, so he's literally always getting stronger. The only question that remains is to what degree. We also know he's been training with Gohan.

More important than all that, Gohan and #17 have feats which we can later use to extrapolate Piccolo's power. #17 one-shots Botamo, a fighter that base Goku could not contend with physically only a few arcs prior. Gohan at full power is at least as strong as Berserk Kale if not far far greater.

Moro: There's some interesting scaling going on earlier in the arc. Such as Gohan vs 7-3. 7-3 being equally matched with Piccolo previously but having the advantage of infinite stamina is completely dominated by Gohan, but interestingly enough Gohan could not one-shot him. Again, 7-3 had some stamina and durability advantages over Piccolo but Gohan was still not able to one-shot him despite a massive power advantage. That right there seems to be evidence enough that Piccolo has improved from even the ToP. Cell would be easily one-shot by post ToP Gohan.

Piccolo admits to Krillin, in-universe this time, "I never stop honing myself, even in the best of times."

We've already gone over the latter part of the arc but you said some things I'd like to respond directly to.

Moro does stop Piccolo from charging his attack after he's set up the barrier, but 1) Piccolo is specific about attributing any success to his attack to the fact that Moro's sealed in, so ... it's skirting a moment to really sell us on a massive power-increase again

See, I don't know why you see this as skirting. The implication is in Piccolo threatening it and Moro going out of his way to stop him. It's all mostly in Piccolo's threat. This is a character not known (in manga standards) for engaging in useless attacks or outrageous bluffing, especially after fusing with Kami. He knows how strong Moro is and he still believes his attack, "will leave nothing left". As I said before, even if that same attack could effect someone with a 10th or 100th of the strength Moro has, it would indicate an unprecedented power increase. The barrier likely contributes to the effectiveness of this planned attack, but still, the level of power this requires is mind boggling.

2) Moro's taking out errybody; even #18 and Jaco,

Jaco is usually shown being attacked in non-direct ways. He was hit with air pressure and someone elses limp body. Piccolo took these same hits, but was also directly attacked by Moro and Saganbo. The only direct damage Jaco's taken as far as I know was when 7-3 decked him in the face much earlier in the arc. Any time Jaco is about to be attacked directly someone saves him, indicating that he is not on the same level as the other fighters. I think #18 has caught up to #17.

3) even Tenshinhan manages to hurt Cell with a specific attack;

Justified by it being a sneak attack. Most people don't even believe that this attack hurt Cell. And I happen to be one of the folks that believe Tien is much stronger than most think him to be so this sort of argument won't sway me either way.

Chaozu is confident he can sacrifice himself to take out Nappa, etc.

Justified in that Chaozu didn't know how strong Nappa truly was. He just knew he was stronger than his allies who were all in the 1000 - 2000 range as far as he knew. Chaozu likely generated enough power to pass that threshold. Chaozu is also not Piccolo who we know has quite the battlefield acumen by the time of the Cell saga.

Those kinds of moments have never been the ones the series turns to for smoking-gun, reader-clarity, "Oh, this character is much stronger now" beats.

It doesn't really have to be. This isn't Piccolo's arc so his strength isn't the focus. Same with the previous arcs. Toyotaro just seems to be positioning him so that he is a useful defender of Earth. His development is happening in the background. Hints here, hints there along with explicit statements and showings. Nothing as explicit as "Piccolo is stronger than I was two arcs ago" but explicit enough to get a good idea of his improvements. Goku's statement about barely recognizing Gohan and Piccolo after their training is very explicit. It's a phrase that typically denotes tremendous power growth in the series which is way Piccolo says the same thing about Vegeta a little later.

Spoiler:

I don't have a grudge against Piccolo. I don't have an issue with large strength jumps when the story makes it clear. That's just ... what's on the page. A lot of demonstratable lack of major growth, and then one comment as to some. That's ... that's it. I can't pull more out of thin air.

We basically completely split at the universe 6 arc. You don't seem to think those fighters are much stronger than the Cell saga, while I think its evident due to the events of RoF that the fighters were well past Perfect Cell. I don't believe a fighter between Semi-Cell and Perfect Cell would be able to present any trouble to Frost.

Spoiler:

The difference between Goku, Vegeta and Freeza's progression and Piccolo's supposed one is that the former three are aggressively confirmed--in action against opponents whose strength we can easily ascertain, in dialogue such as Goku telling Vegeta he may not be able to beat the Freeza he brings to the ToP (the story's big red flag for, "Hey, he has caught up to Goku and Vegeta again".)

You misunderstand what I'm saying. By lowballing Piccolo to less than Cell you've already massively disregarded the strength progression of Frieza, Goku, and Vegeta before Universe 6 even begins. You can track their strength progression throughout, yes that's my point. Thanks to their progression, it's easy to see that Piccolo has improved. Nobody has to say it, the fights show it.

Spoiler:

But it isn't just them. Look for it across both DB and Super and you'll realize the remarkable, almost absurd mission they're on to reaffirm and even contextually scale big jumps where they happen. At the 22nd and 23rd Tenkaichi Budokais? Even though it's painfully obvious from presentation that all of the Turtle (and later Crane) students have improved, they aren't spared dialogue from observing characters to drive that point home.

This is the same point I was going to make, because this one is in Piccolo's favor. The growth of the turtle clan is only commented on, by Goku by the way, in the same way Goku comments on Piccolo. There's no direct comparisons, Goku and sometimes Roshi just say that they have improved. There are no magnitudes of strength mentioned. The only direct comparison we get is Goku to Tao. This is the same as what Goku just provided to Gohan and Piccolo. I don't see how the Dragon Ball statements are more valid than these used in the Moro arc. What's more, the "barely recognize" and other similar statements have a precedent in the series for indicating a dramatic increase in strength.

On the flipside, there's also no statements singling him out as a weakling during the ToP or Moro arc. As a matter of fact both Champa and the Galactic Patrol King seem rather impressed with him specifically as Champa recruits his own Namekians and the Galactic King wants to recruit Piccolo for the Ginga patrol. Typically, weaklings are singled out and referred to as such when they are outclassed to the degree you say Piccolo is.

Where things might be murky, we get stand-in villains like Dabra.

Before that was the humans. No one really knows if they are weaker than the Ginyu's or in the ballpark of the base Saiyans by the end of the Android arc. Then later where #18 stands in regards to Krillin or Goten and Trunks. Goten and Trunks are also rather murky. That's what I'm saying is power progression is not as clean is you're implying. Power progression for the side characters is never really a focus. The story used to be better about it which is what people complain about.

Spoiler:

Saiyan arc? Power levels galore, to quantify each and every cast member's gains, even though the performances against Raditz-equivalent Saibaman and Nappa could easily speak for themselves. Goku's power-ups? Better believe we both see and hear about them. Kuririn and Gohan's power-ups from the Grand Elder? Clear as day, plus Gohan is specifically ready to at least stand his ground against Vegeta now so it's fully and readily contextualized. Where things might be murky, we get stand-in villains like Dabra. Super for its part, follows suit, and it doesn't just apply to the upper-echelon of fighters. Trunks' SS2 is confirmed in outrageously specific terms to be a match for Goku's SS3, even though it's below the then-relevant levels of power. #17 both puts SS3 Goku into a panic and is given post-arc dialogue about having more or less caught up to Goku/Vegeta. Freeza, I mentioned. Gohan's performance against Kefla at the ToP could easily speak for itself, but is given commentary from Kuririn, Goku and Piccolo to confirm how impressive his new increase is. Boo fighting Moro on Namek signals a clear power-up simply from the characters involved and one-sided nature of the fight, but it, too, can't go without commentary from Vegeta and Goku to confirm that--yes--Boo seems to have newly gotten really strong. (Unlike Piccolo, Boo in that scene is both fighting on his own and winning; nothing murky about the size of his jump, and it's then additionally doubled down on by dialogue.)

I'll respond to this in one go. In Piccolo's fight in the latest arc, there is no one around who can really commentate on his improvement which is why Goku does it when he shows up. Gohan already knows the depths of Piccolo's power and is intensely engaged in combat right alongside Piccolo. The Androids don't sense ki, Jaco doesn't sense ki. 7-3 and Shimo-Rekka don't seem to be able to read ki, neither does Saganbo. Moro can read ki but he isn't aware of how strong Piccolo and Gohan were before. The other Earthlings are also engaged in combat around the world but they all stop and stare at Piccolo's SBC. It is curious that they don't comment on his increase but Goku does.

Spoiler:

Perhaps the one situation where the original series doesn't go out of its way to belabor a strength increase? The humans between the Namek and Cell arcs. Hence the infamous old fandom constant of "Are they stronger than Freeza now or not?" But it turns out that in that case, there was no massively relevant, unspoken increase. They were stronger, to be sure, but the one time the series chose not to be very enthusiastic about explicitly contextualizing new power-ups through both action and dialogue? Confirmed by Beerus' dialogue in Battle of Gods to also be the one time, in Toriyama's mind, they hadn't eclipsed the villain from the previous arc.

Exactly, that's why I reference the humans up above. I think Beerus' statement about Frieza in BoG is only movie continuity isn't it? In any case, I still challenge this because any increase between say Tien's 1,800 and Frieza's initial 530,000 could be considered substantial as could an increase between Tien's PL and Captain Ginyu's 120,000. Hell, going from 1,800 to Recoome's 40,000 is worth a comment or two because its a 22x increase in power. The problem is at a certain point that sort of increase, especially the latter, is so irrelevant that it doesn't even matter. I'm arguing that an increase from Semi-Cell to Perfect Cell warrants the exact same reaction in this current arc. That's why I find the assertion that Piccolo in this current arc to be hovering around Perfect Cell's level of power to be ludicrous by any standard.

Spoiler:

The fact that the series doesn't provide Piccolo the same kind of doubled-down contextualizing those big jumps always get, much like the fact that it doesn't spare him dialogue on a power-up in the U6 arc at all (and pointedly does the opposite) is telling.

I can't vibe with this because the series actively sets up feats for him to shatter then he does. Vados' barrier is setup up before the tournament as something that Champa is confident not even Goku and Vegeta can shatter. Goku doesn't shatter it, Piccolo does. Goku tells Piccolo he can't defeat Frost, he nearly does in the anime and fights him to a standstill in the manga. Everything doesn't have to be a direct statement.

Sorry, I just read the part where you mention you don't care to use the anime.

Spoiler:

Give me Piccolo clearly beating an opponent who will allow us to understand the extent of a strength increase; give me a line of dialogue more clearly indicating where he stands; do either, or even both of those, as both series have always done, except in the one infamous case where the strength increase truly wasn't, in context, so significant.

That would be ideal, yes but we work with what we have. And just because this isn't available doesn't equate to nothing. That's where other subtle storytelling techniques come in. You're basically saying, if Piccolo doesn't beat someone or if exposition for his fights doesn't exist then he can't increase in power because there's no other way to gauge him. That just isn't true.

Who cares about the anime though (apply to both Z and Super, for this kind of conversation)

Yeah, I hear you. I use both mediums to help me figure out the truth of things. It helps me determine what Toriyama-san's intentions might have actually been, or rather the origin point of certain ideas.

Spoiler:

But what then, if his presence in losing group fights against those characters is enough alone to discredit that notion, do we make of the #18 doing the same? (This is a rhetorical question, simply meant to point out that there's very clearly a character weaker than Perfect Cell involved in the same fights, and even causing Moro to dodge when attacking in tandem with a much stronger partner. You could argue #18 has powered up that much as well, but that's truly clutching at air, considering she doesn't even get a line on her power to the extent of Piccolo's, and pointedly expresses disinterest in training and fighting without prize money.)

That's also the point I've been making. Yes, #18 has also increased her power by a major degree. Using the anime (which I just realized you're understandably loathe to do) there is the precedent for #18 having a major power increase. Manga-wise IDK, Roshi has had a major power increase in either medium so I don't begrudge #18 getting the same off-screen treatment. It's overdue IMO. She has better precedent for getting stronger than #17 does, she lives with a martial artist. If #17's light exercise can get him as strong as he is (cuz I'm not sure the Cell Jrs are canon) then why can't hers likewise increase her power?

Spoiler:

But even on taken on its own? It's like saying the Tenshinhan who fights the androids couldn't be weaker than Freeza. But ... he is. And group fights simply don't offer much if everyone's losing horribly anyway.

Tenshinhan didn't accomplish anything in that fight. That's what a gulf in power gets you. Group fights don't radically alter the mechanics of the franchise. Tien never pulled off impressive combos with Piccolo like Piccolo did with Gohan. He was taken out after one headlock. Just like Jaco, he took no full-on blows like Piccolo, Vegeta, and Trunks did. And what's funny is Tien is closer to Piccolo, Vegeta, and Trunks in that arc than your theoretical Piccolo and #18 would be to Gohan and #17 in this Moro arc.

I have absolutely no idea why I wound up typing such a wall of text about this.

It's fun discourse, so I'm glad you did. Trying to respond to all this while not creating a page long post myself is a challenge but a fun one. I'm sure I already failed. IDK, it's taken a couple of hours to respond to everything, referencing the various manga. Almost like a research project.

I guess just because I'm a bit floored by the idea not so much that someone would disagree with my reading, but see it as being so impossible (and even against the spirit of the series' specifics and presentation, instead of grounded in them).

I find your view extreme. Just as extreme as someone who would say that Piccolo is as strong as Moro, SSBE Vegeta, or UI Goku. When I compare Piccolo to anything god related, it's from the very beginning of the show. It just seems like you'd have to either not know or ignore a lot of what's presented to come to the conclusion you've come to. You're very knowledgeable and your logic makes sense but the conclusion doesn't add up to me. I think it's just due to how we interpret power after RoF. Backpedalling to Cell arc levels seems far too regressive to me in a series where the characters in question are always getting stronger.

My tl;dr is that both series have always been very, very clear about making the audience aware of power jumps on that level, which this arc absolutely has not been for Piccolo (a character whom previous arcs have also actively dissuaded us from attributing any other big power-ups to since the Cell arc). Hence I'm left with, "Well, he's stronger than we left him in the Cell/Boo arcs/early Super, but not enough to have received that kind of greater contextualizing. So I guess ... Perfect Cell-ish." Anyway, Piccolo is a good, green boy.

I see nothing wrong with wanting solid footing to come to conclusions about things but I still feel you have to ignore a lot of subcontext to come to the conclusion that Piccolo is near Perfect Cell at this point, including series battle mechanics. You've explained it well enough though, so I get ya! Thanks for clarifying and responding!

[TobyS]

I can only assume you haven't seen any of his fights in Super or paid much attention to them, or you've just lowballed every single character to their absolute lowest point beyond what's evident in the fights. If everyone needed a statement to contextualize power then we wouldn't be able to figure out how strong the vast majority of the cast is. But the thing is, Piccolo has statements under his belt as well, as far back as the U6 arc. More importantly, he has feats. There are even reactions from other characters to consider.

This is really wading into the weeds, but let's look at the totality of said fights, between the post-revival movies and Super manga:

Spoiler:

Battle of Gods: Put down instantly by Beerus along with the rest of the cast; neither here nor there, but tossing it in for completeness' sake.

Resurrection "F": His fight with Shishamo certainly raises some questions about the latter's power, but in terms of Piccolo himself, it's made clear that he's weaker than Super Saiyan Gohan. Since this is a Gohan who has powered down from his highest Boo-arc levels, to the point of "only" being able to reach Super Saiyan, Piccolo is rather explicitly still weaker than the Boo arc Saiyans, who were equivalent to the Cell arc Saiyans (Gohan, in Super Saiyan, can fight evenly with but struggles to put down Dabra, who is said to be roughly even with Cell). This keeps Piccolo where he should last have been in the Cell arc, after his pre-Cell Games trip through the Room of Spirit and Time: Stronger than the Androids and quite possibly first-form Cell (who had put a hole through his chest earlier in the arc), but not strong enough to be a contender with Perfect Cell or the Super Saiyan Goku and Gohan who amaze everyone by fighting him.

Universe 6 arc: Piccolo is told outright that he won't be able to defeat Frost, and admits as much himself as he begins the match. However, he is able to keep Frost from achieving a quick victory, as well as get under his skin, through clever use of long-distance techniques. His tactics and the energy he's forcing Frost to expend are enough to prompt the later to use his poison needle again.

Piccolo's dialogue (my own translations, as I only have the Japanese version on hand): "I may not be able to defeat you, but ... I have some methods of not being defeated myself."

Goku and Vegeta's dialogue toward Piccolo once the match starts: "Hey! Piccolo's doin' pretty well!" "However, he's still being forced on the defensive. He may be forcing Frost to use power, but Piccolo's is dropping even faster. Though he does seem to be getting under his skin."

That is it. It's basically the opposite of the kind of dialogue the series goes for when a fighter has had an unexpected boost of strength. (See, in Super alone: Trunks, #17, Gohan, Boo, in the Moro arc.) Piccolo exceeds expectations with his defensive tactics, but he's still weaker than Super Saiyans, who can easily defeat Frost. (Even allowing for their years in the Room of Spirit and time, the difference here appears not to be too drastic.) If the series wanted to hint at a power increase for Piccolo to accompany his unexpectedly good performance, this was the space for it, but it forgoes doing so rather pointedly. Conclusion: No to minimal change.

Future Trunks arc: Doesn't fight.

Tournament of Power arc: Chapter 34: Scattered by Magetta (meaningless); clashes punches and makes a strained face while fighting Universe 9's large blue spiky guy, who he comments he expected to only rely on his size, but is proving to be fairly strong/skillfull as well; is picked up and dragged into the air by Universe 9's bat guy, and saved by Gohan, who is still not using his full power (read: his "ultimate" state, in fan terms)--we know this, because he explicitly tells Gohan to refrain from using his full power so early a few pages later, when the two of them face down the whole U9 team; a few pages later, a full-power Frost effortelssly tosses blue spiky guy out of the ring (make of this what you will; only including it for the thouroughness' sake); comments that the Trio de Danger, who had given a reserved Gohan trouble in tandem earlier, are nothing special while apart, and defeats Bergamo rather easily off-page

Comments on Piccolo's strength: None. Struggles against two opponents (one of whom Frost beats), beats one. Is saved once by a reserved Gohan, and also beats one enemy who had given the same Gohan trouble via coordinated group attacks.

Chapter 36: Defeats a minor fighter from Universe 2 with one blast; is amazed by #17's ability to rubber-band Botamo out of the ring with one punch; easily defeats Universe 10's sumo-wrestler fighter; joins #17 and Gohan in fighting the last three Universe 10 fighters, mostly off-page, though that fight is broken up by Universe 4's invisible fighter, Gamisaras, before it concludes; Piccolo senses and easily blasts Gamisaras out of the ring; Piccolo strikes and and misses Universe 4's bug fighter, Daimon, and is knocked out of the ring by a surprise strike

Comments on Piccolo's strength: None. Mostly fights mooks, so it's hard to make anything of his actual fights in this chapter. Likewise, his defeat seems to come more due to the surprise of the strike than the strength of the opponent.

Chapter 39: No fighting for Piccolo (obviously), but this does contain his commentary on Gohan's new strength, as the latter fights Kefla. His line: さすが悟飯だ。短時間の修行では闘いの勘を取り戻すので精一杯だったが...この闘いの中でさらに進化して以前より強くなっている。 "Gohan truly is incredible. It took everything he (or "we," ambigious) had to get his fighting senses back in such a short time, but he's grown even stronger during the course of his battles here." I bring this up mostly to point out that it makes no commentary as to Piccolo's role in the training, and indicates that Gohan's further growth beyond the realm of his initial Elder Kaioshin power-up is attributed to Gohan's own growth during the ToP.

So, we leave the arc with: No meaningful statements about any power increases for Piccolo, and no opponents to provide any kind of clear scaling to that effect. Nothing reads out of place with the idea that he isn't substantially stronger than he was in the U6 arc, where he wasn't substantially stronger than in "F," where he was demonstratably not substantially stronger than in the Boo or Cell arcs.

Which leaves us with the...

Moro arc: A relatively short amount of time has passed since the ToP/Broly, given appearances and ages (Bra and Pan still babies, etc.). Piccolo fights the Macareni Siblings during their scouting of Earth, which tells us little, given that they aren't proper fighters. He fights Seven-Three alongside Gohan (or rather, is saved by Gohan) during his and Shimorekka's first trip to the planet. Then, finally, in the chapters that sparked this thread, is given his first direct dialogue regarding power in Super: Goku complementing both his and Gohan's growth on the other side of a two-month training period. His fighting at this point consists primarily of the group performances detailed at length in other posts, which I'd argue doesn't give us a whole lot, if not only for the fact it also involves #18, infamous for not actively training when there isn't money in the line, and who is certainly never spared any dialogue about power-ups. There's also nary a solitary moment for Piccolo with which the series asks us to appraise him.

Moro does stop Piccolo from charging his attack after he's set up the barrier, but 1) Piccolo is specific about attributing any success to his attack to the fact that Moro's sealed in, so ... it's skirting a moment to really sell us on a massive power-increase again, 2) Moro's taking out errybody; even #18 and Jaco, 3) even Tenshinhan manages to hurt Cell with a specific attack; Chaozu is confident he can sacrifice himself to take out Nappa, etc. Those kinds of moments have never been the ones the series turns to for smoking-gun, reader-clarity, "Oh, this character is much stronger now" beats.

Conclusion: Piccolo is noticably stronger than he was--for the first demonstratable time at any point in Super, and arguably, looking at the length the U6 arc's dialogue goes to specifically avoid attributing his performance to strength, for the first time in Super period. But to what extent is unclear.

I don't have a grudge against Piccolo. I don't have an issue with large strength jumps when the story makes it clear. That's just ... what's on the page. A lot of demonstratable lack of major growth, and then one comment as to some. That's ... that's it. I can't pull more out of thin air.

"Well, why couldn't that 'some' mean 'a lot' in this case?" you might ask.

But, ah, ye unfortunate soul who has waded so far into a sincere power-scaling post as to see this: read on.

You'd have to ignore the progression Goku/Vegeta has made, the progression Frieza has made and the progression Piccolo has made.

The difference between Goku, Vegeta and Freeza's progression and Piccolo's supposed one is that the former three are aggressively confirmed--in action against opponents whose strength we can easily ascertain, in dialogue such as Goku telling Vegeta he may not be able to beat the Freeza he brings to the ToP (the story's big red flag for, "Hey, he has caught up to Goku and Vegeta again".)

But it isn't just them. Look for it across both DB and Super and you'll realize the remarkable, almost absurd mission they're on to reaffirm and even contextually scale big jumps where they happen. At the 22nd and 23rd Tenkaichi Budokais? Even though it's painfully obvious from presentation that all of the Turtle (and later Crane) students have improved, they aren't spared dialogue from observing characters to drive that point home. Saiyan arc? Power levels galore, to quantify each and every cast member's gains, even though the performances against Raditz-equivalent Saibaman and Nappa could easily speak for themselves. Goku's power-ups? Better believe we both see and hear about them. Kuririn and Gohan's power-ups from the Grand Elder? Clear as day, plus Gohan is specifically ready to at least stand his ground against Vegeta now so it's fully and readily contextualized. Where things might be murky, we get stand-in villains like Dabra. Super for its part, follows suit, and it doesn't just apply to the upper-echelon of fighters. Trunks' SS2 is confirmed in outrageously specific terms to be a match for Goku's SS3, even though it's below the then-relevant levels of power. #17 both puts SS3 Goku into a panic and is given post-arc dialogue about having more or less caught up to Goku/Vegeta. Freeza, I mentioned. Gohan's performance against Kefla at the ToP could easily speak for itself, but is given commentary from Kuririn, Goku and Piccolo to confirm how impressive his new increase is. Boo fighting Moro on Namek signals a clear power-up simply from the characters involved and one-sided nature of the fight, but it, too, can't go without commentary from Vegeta and Goku to confirm that--yes--Boo seems to have newly gotten really strong. (Unlike Piccolo, Boo in that scene is both fighting on his own and winning; nothing murky about the size of his jump, and it's then additionally doubled down on by dialogue.)

Perhaps the one situation where the original series doesn't go out of its way to belabor a strength increase? The humans between the Namek and Cell arcs. Hence the infamous old fandom constant of "Are they stronger than Freeza now or not?" But it turns out that in that case, there was no massively relevant, unspoken increase. They were stronger, to be sure, but the one time the series chose not to be very enthusiastic about explicitly contextualizing new power-ups through both action and dialogue? Confirmed by Beerus' dialogue in Battle of Gods to also be the one time, in Toriyama's mind, they hadn't eclipsed the villain from the previous arc.

The fact that the series doesn't provide Piccolo the same kind of doubled-down contextualizing those big jumps always get, much like the fact that it doesn't spare him dialogue on a power-up in the U6 arc at all (and pointedly does the opposite) is telling. As is the fact that it doesn't do it during the ToP. And so, based on one comment accompanied by half the usual specificity of the series in terms of either dialogue or performance, what am I supposed to think, except that the increase simply isn't intended to be that relevant, that large? All I have to go on are everything the series has shown and told us concerning Piccolo prior, and its own precedent for the way it has consisntetntly doubled down on clearly presenting and contextualizing strength increases of that degree. Give me Piccolo clearly beating an opponent who will allow us to understand the extent of a strength increase; give me a line of dialogue more clearly indicating where he stands; do either, or even both of those, as both series have always done, except in the one infamous case where the strength increase truly wasn't, in context, so significant.

Again, I could be wrong, as the series will go where it will. But it wouldn't be because I've somehow been blind to the way it has worked either generally, or in regard to Piccolo specifically, up to now.

In the anime, this is actually questionable. Krillin was certainly fighting on par with #18 and Roshi seemed even more impressive than Krillin. I don't want to open that can of worms though.

Who cares about the anime though (apply to both Z and Super, for this kind of conversation)

There is absolutely 0% chance that the Piccolo who is directly fighting against Saganbo and Moro is as strong or weaker than Perfect Cell.

But what then, if his presence in losing group fights against those characters is enough alone to discredit that notion, do we make of the #18 doing the same? (This is a rhetorical question, simply meant to point out that there's very clearly a character weaker than Perfect Cell involved in the same fights, and even causing Moro to dodge when attacking in tandem with a much stronger partner. You could argue #18 has powered up that much as well, but that's truly clutching at air, considering she doesn't even get a line on her power to the extent of Piccolo's, and pointedly expresses disinterest in training and fighting without prize money.)

But even on taken on its own? It's like saying the Tenshinhan who fights the androids couldn't be weaker than Freeza. But ... he is. And group fights simply don't offer much if everyone's losing horribly anyway.

I have absolutely no idea why I wound up typing such a wall of text about this. I guess just because I'm a bit floored by the idea not so much that someone would disagree with my reading, but see it as being so impossible (and even against the spirit of the series' specifics and presentation, instead of grounded in them). My tl;dr is that both series have always been very, very clear about making the audience aware of power jumps on that level, which this arc absolutely has not been for Piccolo (a character whom previous arcs have also actively dissuaded us from attributing any other big power-ups to since the Cell arc). Hence I'm left with, "Well, he's stronger than we left him in the Cell/Boo arcs/early Super, but not enough to have received that kind of greater contextualizing. So I guess ... Perfect Cell-ish." Anyway, Piccolo is a good, green boy.

First of all good thought out post.

Funnily enough the humans are praised indirectly in the android arc. Yamcha is mistaken for Goku and their power alongside mainly piccolo is enough to help bridge the Gero to vegeta gap.

However I kinda disagree that because something is explicitly stated a lot means that it always is.
The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

Piccolo getting hurt by a henchman doesn't appear in the Toyos RoF, XV 2 and where it does occur in the anime they've explicitly had it explained how that aliens physiology would allow for those kind of gains when also being trained with/on by Freeza.

Now gohans rusty and lost ultimate but it's unclear if he's weaker in his original forms, it's only really said he's not sure if he can turn ss.

It's possible that we have Gohan SS1 > Gohan SS1 Cell >> Goku SS1 Cell >> Vegeta/Trunks/Jr > Piccolo at Cell.

So Piccolo does still have some room to have made gains here.

By U6 he could have got stronger then RoF as Goku never saw him fight there, all we know is his position relative to wounded Frost.

Now I assume he's gotten stronger by the ToP.
I think only the anime has that weird line about Frost having got weaker on the run.

I do think Gohans in ultimate, bang be damned, I just don't think he's using his full power in ultimate, he's just conserving his Chi.

I do think Piccolo is holding back somewhat too, not explicitly as a strategy like for Gohan (which turned out to be the right move as he needed it for Kale) but implicitly as it's a long battle royale tournament and everyone's trying to conserve their stamina.

So Piccolo being surprised by spikey guy just meant Piccolo underestimated how much force he'd need to fight him and as I recall aren't there other fighters standing there too?

So then we have Frosts feat. This doesn't say as much about the remaining relative gap for me, it's explicitly stated he's going BALLS OUT in a completely unsustainable way under the presumption that Freeza will cover him and let him rest later. Theoretically Piccolo could have done the same thing albeit not as easily as Frost as there's still probably power gap between them.

Then we have his explicitly stated “i barely recognized you” power up in Moro.

It's weird to me that he got so strong here without getting that strong before so I guess personally I like to high ball as much of those earlier gains as possible to make it a more logical spread...

[DestructoDisc]

He would kill everyone from Z (pre BoG) easily. Moro arc indicated he's stronger than current 17, who's above SSJ3 tier in the manga. In the anime it's debatable where he stands, but the Moro arc made it very clear imo how strong he is exactly in the manga. Same thing with #18 who I have in the same tier as #17.

[TobyS]

He would kill everyone from Z (pre BoG) easily. Moro arc indicated he's stronger than current 17, who's above SSJ3 tier in the manga. In the anime it's debatable where he stands, but the Moro arc made it very clear imo how strong he is exactly in the manga. Same thing with #18 who I have in the same tier as #17.

I don't know about that. There's a reading to low ball 17 as above SS2 as he forced Goku into 3. But Goku calls off the fight after that as it was getting out of hand. And he can't read the ki of the androids attack and has blue on reserve so it wasn't fear.

The only other statement is Goku saying 17 is about on their level but that could have been a collective our for a team that included Kuririn Ten Piccolo etc.

He has far less feats against Jiren in the ToP no and only really fights Dyspo who also lacks feats in the manga.

Does it say 17 trained for Moro too? It could be Piccolo only surpassed that above SS2 level which would still make him fodder for Buuhan and such.

I guess it depends on if taking blows from Moro and saying he could hurt him with an amplified attack inside a barrier mean much.

Don't get me wrong I want Piccolo to be strong but I'm just being devil's advocate.

Plus I find it weird he could improve that much but not in the years before...

[Koitsukai]

I doubt his intent to kill Moro inside that dome would actually do anything, Moro not only is GoD tier or something close to that, but could regenerate too. Besides he was charging up his Light Granade, I don't know what Jaco was talking about, he was about to do the same attack he did to 1st form Cell, perhaps Jaco was thinking that it'd be such a huge attack that getting stuck up with it inside the dome would be devastating but Moro can turn off the dome just like that. Even absorb it!

I think Moro's main concern was that attack obliterating his many meals lying around.

[Lionel]

Training with the hybrid-Saiyan who has been continually praised for having the greatest potential of all the Z-Warriors should reasonably boost anyone's strength. I don't believe it farfetched that Piccolo could have improved so rapidly by collaborating with Gohan after years of training exclusively by himself.

Technically speaking, Piccolo would have had more rigorous conditions to train in compared with Goku between the Buu and Beerus arcs when the latter was preoccupied with farming and having only intermittent periods to mentally spar by himself.