Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Thani]

But Miracles, are you assuming that Gogeta is naturally stronger than Vegito, or that Vegito now would have the same strength as two arcs ago?

Because saying that Gogeta now is stronger than Vegito then doesn't really proves anything, since he's also much stronger than Broly.

[Miracles]

"probably (prɒbəbli; adverb) almost certainly; as far as one knows or can tell."

Still not fact.

But something Goku is pretty certain of, at this point in the story. Or would you like to dispute that point?

The word probably disputes Goku. He isn't definite.

[Magnificent Ponta]

But something Goku is pretty certain of, at this point in the story. Or would you like to dispute that point?

The word probably disputes Goku. He isn't definite.

If one says something is probable, they mean, as I noted earlier, that they are almost certain that something is so, or that they believe it is so to the best of their knowledge. So your only way out of accepting this obvious meaning of Goku's statement is to question the basis of his knowledge, which we don't have much reason to consider impeachable at this point.

There may be a small margin of error in the judgement (this is true of most judgement calls), but the weight of Goku's meaning indicates that he thinks it is so, else he would not have expressed it as such an affirmation. At this stage, to completely ignore the basic thrust of this affirmation in favour of the very small gap between 'almost certain' and 'completely certain' is simply obtuse.

[Skar]

Broly needed a fusion stronger than Vegetto to beat him. That alone shows Broly is stronger than Vegetto.
The enemy raised the power scaling ceiling that high. Due to Toriyama's narrative.
The story doesn't even know if this enemy who boosted the power ladder is stronger than Beerus.

If you do feel there's a contradiction, it's still difficult to argue that's what the author intended. That would mean they thought "I'll have Shin claim Vegetto might have surpassed Beerus and Goku claim Broly is probably stronger than Beerus. Rather than have another character dispute these statements like I've always done to show that it was false, I'll hope that fans find a contradiction between these two statements regarding Vegetto and Broly and realize I didn't intend for either to be true".

To be honest, it just seems like you're choosing to interpret it in a way that leads to a contradiction. We have no idea how strong Broly is compared to Vegetto and only that both were implied to be above Beerus. They could be nearly equal for all we know and their fusion only now surpasses Broly because Goku and Vegeta grew stronger since then. We also don't have any indication how much stronger they've grown since Toriyama seems to only have them at regular SSJB in his outlines.

Since we keep going back and forth, could you tell how strong you believe Vegetto, Jiren, and Broly are compared to Beerus? If Beerus was a 100, where would you place these characters? You made it clear you believe they're still weaker but how much weaker in your opinion?

[Thani]

Broly needed a fusion stronger than Vegetto to beat him. That alone shows Broly is stronger than Vegetto.
The enemy raised the power scaling ceiling that high. Due to Toriyama's narrative.
The story doesn't even know if this enemy who boosted the power ladder is stronger than Beerus.

If you do feel there's a contradiction, it's still difficult to argue that's what the author intended. That would mean they thought "I'll have Shin claim Vegetto might have surpassed Beerus and Goku claim Broly is probably stronger than Beerus. Rather than have another character dispute these statements like I've always done to show that it was false, I'll hope that fans find a contradiction between these two statements regarding Vegetto and Broly and realize I didn't intend for either to be true".

To be honest, it just seems like you're choosing to interpret it in a way that leads to a contradiction. We have no idea how strong Broly is compared to Vegetto and only that both were implied to be above Beerus. They could be nearly equal for all we know and their fusion only now surpasses Broly because Goku and Vegeta grew stronger since then. We also don't have any indication how much stronger they've grown since Toriyama seems to only have them at regular SSJB in his outlines.

I think that's about right. Because of how fusion works, Goku and Vegeta don't need to improve drastically for Vegito and Gogeta to be exponentially more powerful.

[Miracles]

But Miracles, are you assuming that Gogeta is naturally stronger than Vegito, or that Vegito now would have the same strength as two arcs ago?

Because saying that Gogeta now is stronger than Vegito then doesn't really proves anything, since he's also much stronger than Broly.

The fact that it took a stronger fusion later to defeat a supposed Beerus level opponent, in Broly, demonstrates the villain raising the power level roof. FT Vegetto was made obsolete, thanks to another fusion facing the current threat. This is thanks to Toriyama's eternal law of power escalation.

But something Goku is pretty certain of, at this point in the story. Or would you like to dispute that point?

The word probably disputes Goku. He isn't definite.

If one says something is probable, they mean, as I noted earlier, that they are almost certain that something is so, or that they believe it is so to the best of their knowledge. So your only way out of accepting this obvious meaning of Goku's statement is to question the basis of his knowledge, which we don't have much reason to consider impeachable at this point.

There may be a small margin of error in the judgement (this is true of most judgement calls), but the weight of Goku's meaning indicates that he thinks it is so, else he would not have expressed it as such an affirmation. At this stage, to completely ignore the basic thrust of this affirmation in favour of the very small gap between 'almost certain' and 'completely certain' is simply obtuse.

Almost doesn't cut it. It still isn't truth. For example, Goku straight out says "the stronger Broly [A fact]."
Compared to "probably" stronger than Beerus [non truth]."

Broly needed a fusion stronger than Vegetto to beat him. That alone shows Broly is stronger than Vegetto.
The enemy raised the power scaling ceiling that high. Due to Toriyama's narrative.
The story doesn't even know if this enemy who boosted the power ladder is stronger than Beerus.

If you do feel there's a contradiction, it's still difficult to argue that's what the author intended. That would mean they thought "I'll have Shin claim Vegetto might have surpassed Beerus and Goku claim Broly is probably stronger than Beerus. Rather than have another character dispute these statements like I've always done to show that it was false, I'll hope that fans find a contradiction between these two statements regarding Vegetto and Broly and realize I didn't intend for either to be true".

To be honest, it just seems like you're choosing to interpret it in a way that leads to a contradiction. We have no idea how strong Broly is compared to Vegetto and only that both were implied to be above Beerus. They could be nearly equal for all we know and their fusion only now surpasses Broly because Goku and Vegeta grew stronger since then. We also don't have any indication how much stronger they've grown since Toriyama seems to only have them at regular SSJB in his outlines.

Since we keep going back and forth, could you tell how strong you believe Vegetto, Jiren, and Broly are compared to Beerus? If Beerus was a 100, where would you place these characters? You made it clear you believe they're still weaker but how much weaker in your opinion?

See you aren't understanding the dialogue. You are still thinking the author made those statements as cemented facts. They didn't, due to the reality that the authors used assumptive vocabulary with "maybe" and "probably." Therefore the statements weren't stated as eternal truths. So they are subject to change. Which is exactly what happened when a stronger fusion was brought in to raise Toriyama's eternal escalating power level narrative for the current opponent.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Almost doesn't cut it. It still isn't truth. For example, Goku straight out says "the stronger Broly [A fact]."
Compared to "probably" stronger than Beerus [non truth]."

Why? Because you say so? Your dichotomising isn't appropriate for a continuum of meaning (or even probability). Things can be more or less probable, and Goku thinks Broly being stronger than Beerus is likely, based on what he knows. The fact of the matter is that Goku thinks it is true, and, frankly, until we get new data that's all that really matters here.

Do you actually have any real reason for us to doubt this? Or is playing with semantics all that's going to happen here?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I wouldn't really bother.

Nobody's gonna budge from their positions until the series comes back and explicitly lays out things plain and simple with exact words that aren't up for interpretation whatsoever and direct confirmation that things didn't change at all later.

At least nobody tries to only use feats and no power-scaling whatsoever; can you imagine how bad things would be if people tried to only scale characters using environmental feats?

[Miracles]

Almost doesn't cut it. It still isn't truth. For example, Goku straight out says "the stronger Broly [A fact]."
Compared to "probably" stronger than Beerus [non truth]."

Why? Because you say so? Your dichotomising isn't appropriate for a continuum of meaning (or even probability). Things can be more or less probable, and Goku thinks Broly being stronger than Beerus is likely, based on what he knows. The fact of the matter is that Goku thinks it is true, and, frankly, until we get new data that's all that really matters here.

Do you actually have any real reason for us to doubt this? Or is playing with semantics all that's going to happen here?

The story said "probably," that factually means it isn't definite truth. Anyone else claiming otherwise, is pulling from headworld.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Almost doesn't cut it. It still isn't truth. For example, Goku straight out says "the stronger Broly [A fact]."
Compared to "probably" stronger than Beerus [non truth]."

Why? Because you say so? Your dichotomising isn't appropriate for a continuum of meaning (or even probability). Things can be more or less probable, and Goku thinks Broly being stronger than Beerus is likely, based on what he knows. The fact of the matter is that Goku thinks it is true, and, frankly, until we get new data that's all that really matters here.

Do you actually have any real reason for us to doubt this? Or is playing with semantics all that's going to happen here?

The story said "probably" that factually means it isn't definite truth. Anyone else claiming otherwise, is pulling from headworld.

But nobody's talking about absolute definiteness; what's more, absolute definiteness isn't even completely necessary - but on the balance of probability, Goku clearly thinks it's more likely that Broly is stronger than Beerus than the reverse. And if Goku's judgement isn't obviously impeachable for a clear reason here, then that's all that needs to be said.

Now it may well be that in some future chapter, Beerus will show us something new that will overturn Goku's judgement here. If that turns out to be the case, I'll congratulate you for your insight, and for being correct after all. But unless and until that happens, arguing on the basis of a small semantic gap for no particularly compelling reason can only be described as weak.

[Miracles]

Why? Because you say so? Your dichotomising isn't appropriate for a continuum of meaning (or even probability). Things can be more or less probable, and Goku thinks Broly being stronger than Beerus is likely, based on what he knows. The fact of the matter is that Goku thinks it is true, and, frankly, until we get new data that's all that really matters here.

Do you actually have any real reason for us to doubt this? Or is playing with semantics all that's going to happen here?

The story said "probably" that factually means it isn't definite truth. Anyone else claiming otherwise, is pulling from headworld.

But nobody's talking about absolute definiteness; what's more, absolute definiteness isn't even completely necessary - but on the balance of probability, Goku clearly thinks it's more likely that Broly is stronger than Beerus than the reverse. And if Goku's judgement isn't obviously impeachable for a clear reason here, then that's all that needs to be said.

Now it may well be that in some future chapter, Beerus will show us something new that will overturn Goku's judgement here. If that turns out to be the case, I'll congratulate you for your insight, and for being correct after all. But unless and until that happens, arguing on the basis of a small semantic gap for no particularly compelling reason can only be described as weak.

Absolute is always the point when you are talking about being stronger or not. Goku's gas tank wasn't full because he's not sure. So it's not a factual statement.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Absolute is always the point when you are talking about being stronger or not.

Since when? Dragon Ball has, in the past, made extremely qualified statements that have nevertheless been accepted as being actually the case (such as Piccolo's comments on SSj Vegeta and SSj Goku), and with perfectly good reason. Why is Goku's much more confident statement of probability with respect to Broly and Beerus suddenly inadmissible, other than just because you've predetermined that it should be inadmissible?

[Skar]

See you aren't understanding the dialogue. You are still thinking the author made those statements as cemented facts. They didn't, due to the reality that the authors used assumptive vocabulary with "maybe" and "probably." Therefore the statements weren't stated as eternal truths. So they are subject to change. Which is exactly what happened when another stronger fusion was brought in to meet Toriyama's eternal power level raising narrative for that current opponent.

We've kinda gone over this a million times. Of course they're subject to change because it's an ongoing story. We assume they're intended to be true because no character disputed any of these statements yet. Honestly if you're so confident that these statements will be disproven in a future arc, why go to all this trouble to prove them wrong now? Why not just wait and let people believe them until then?

[Hugo Boss]

Goku is not exactly an unreliable strength judge, since he has a good record of on point assessments and he usually doesn’t make a judgment without at least having an idea, but sometimes he makes mistakes.

For example, despite guessing right that Cell was stronger than him, he discovered there was a much larger difference than he expected and he almost couldn’t finish his fight as planned. Also, when he compared Dabra to Cell, after seeing Dabra fighting a second time he concluded he was way stronger than he initially thought. So, there is precedence for a possible mistake.

A few pages ago I already noted that Goku probably doesn’t have a proper assessment of Beerus’ strength, because Beerus lied to him and he never saw Beerus fighting again, except for the manga, which doesn’t share the same event with the anime, so the movie likely doesn’t as well.

[Thani]

But Miracles, are you assuming that Gogeta is naturally stronger than Vegito, or that Vegito now would have the same strength as two arcs ago?

Because saying that Gogeta now is stronger than Vegito then doesn't really proves anything, since he's also much stronger than Broly.

The fact that it took a stronger fusion later to defeat a supposed Beerus level opponent, in Broly, demonstrates the villain raising the power level roof. FT Vegetto was made obsolete, thanks to another fusion facing the current threat. This is thanks to Toriyama's eternal law of power escalation.

But that only means that current Gogeta is also stronger than Beerus. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Miracles]

But Miracles, are you assuming that Gogeta is naturally stronger than Vegito, or that Vegito now would have the same strength as two arcs ago?

Because saying that Gogeta now is stronger than Vegito then doesn't really proves anything, since he's also much stronger than Broly.

The fact that it took a stronger fusion later to defeat a supposed Beerus level opponent, in Broly, demonstrates the villain raising the power level roof. FT Vegetto was made obsolete, thanks to another fusion facing the current threat. This is thanks to Toriyama's eternal law of power escalation.

But that only means that current Gogeta is also stronger than Beerus. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That is also an unknown. Since Goku's statement concerning Beerus isn't truth.

Absolute is always the point when you are talking about being stronger or not.

Since when? Dragon Ball has, in the past, made extremely qualified statements that have nevertheless been accepted as being actually the case (such as Piccolo's comments on SSj Vegeta and SSj Goku), and with perfectly good reason. Why is Goku's much more confident statement of probability with respect to Broly and Beerus suddenly inadmissible, other than just because you've predetermined that it should be inadmissible?

Since Goku flat out said Broly was "the stronger" against him, unlike with Beerus. There was complete certainty in the first claim and doubt in the second. The difference is right there.

See you aren't understanding the dialogue. You are still thinking the author made those statements as cemented facts. They didn't, due to the reality that the authors used assumptive vocabulary with "maybe" and "probably." Therefore the statements weren't stated as eternal truths. So they are subject to change. Which is exactly what happened when another stronger fusion was brought in to meet Toriyama's eternal power level raising narrative for that current opponent.

We've kinda gone over this a million times. Of course they're subject to change because it's an ongoing story. We assume they're intended to be true because no character disputed any of these statements yet. Honestly if you're so confident that these statements will be disproven in a future arc, why go to all this trouble to prove them wrong now? Why not just wait and let people believe them until then?

It was you wrongfully trying to tell me that the story presented those two statements as fact, when in truth they did not. I merely corrected you on this. It was you trying to tell me that Toriyama's plot narrative about the next enemy "always" being strongest was wrong. I pointed out the impossibility of your claims which are contrary to established facts. Now you can believe what you want but you can't tell me facts are obsolete based on their date or you reading the story's statements incorrectly.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Since Goku flat out said Broly was "the stronger" against him, unlike with Beerus. There was complete certainty in the first claim and doubt in the second. The difference is right there.

If someone says 'x is much stronger than me, and probably even stronger than y', all you're meant to take from the statement that x is likely to be the strongest of the three people under discussion. That's it. Unless you have anything else to tip that balance, you have no reason to read it the way you do, which is tendentious.

Moreover, can you provide me with a statement to the effect that anyone in the story thinks that Beerus is stronger than Broly? Or not? If not, you have less evidence for your position than there is for the contrary.

[Koitsukai]

Back to the Vegito-Broly thing, I think they should be pretty even. Both were compared to the same stagnant power source (Beerus) with similar statements. There is nothing putting one above the other, either way.

It's not like the second blue fusion struggled with Broly, making it impossible for the previous blue fusion to be on par with the freak. Gogeta was so above Broly that there's still room for Vegito to be above Broly as well (or not), though potara wouldn't last.
Broly should definitely be able to lay a finger on the 1st blue fusion, but to be able of defeating it is unclear.

[Thani]

Back to the Vegito-Broly thing, I think they should be pretty even. Both were compared to the same stagnant power source (Beerus) with similar statements. There is nothing putting one above the other, either way.

It's not like the second blue fusion struggled with Broly, making it impossible for the previous blue fusion to be on par with the freak. Gogeta was so above Broly that there's still room for Vegito to be above Broly as well (or not), though potara wouldn't last.
Broly should definitely be able to lay a finger on the 1st blue fusion, but to be able of defeating it is unclear.

Honestly, I was kinda pissed that Gogeta lasted for so long, despite the dance having a shorter duration compared to the earrings. It's especially jarring since both methods of fusion were shown to have shorter durations because of a particular form (Fusion Dance's 30min cutting short to just 5min thanks to SSj3 and even less thanks to SSj4; Potara Fusion's 1h lasting less than 7 minutes thanks to SSB) draining the time limit.

It's also bizarrely arbitrary, since Fused Zamasu still had the entire hour to work with, despite spending ludicrous amount of ki like there was no tomorrow, in the manga, even if he wasn't nowhere near Vegito Blue in sheer power.

[Mad Swami]

Back to the Vegito-Broly thing, I think they should be pretty even. Both were compared to the same stagnant power source (Beerus) with similar statements. There is nothing putting one above the other, either way.

It's not like the second blue fusion struggled with Broly, making it impossible for the previous blue fusion to be on par with the freak. Gogeta was so above Broly that there's still room for Vegito to be above Broly as well (or not), though potara wouldn't last.
Broly should definitely be able to lay a finger on the 1st blue fusion, but to be able of defeating it is unclear.

Seeing as Gogeta and Vegito were made equels and or just about I assume your saying Zamasu saga Vegito Blue vs Broly is like a stale mate. If so, I agree somewhat. I think Broly might have the edge.