Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

How can something that has not happened be a DEFINITE FACT???

Wait a minute, are you implying Broly and Gogeta were evenly matched? because that's the only scenario I see where what you propose making any sense. Unless you think they could've chosen to be FT Vegito instead of Gogeta, or that you think dance fusion > potara.
You are saying that Beerus was as strong as Gogeta Blue in the movie, therefore he is stronger than FT Vegito, right?
Two questions then:
1) where is the evidence pointing at Beerus growing in power from FT arc to the movie?
2) did you watch the movie?

Yes I watched the movie. Gogeta needed his Blue form to take down Broly. They are close in power. Also your question about Beerus is unsubstantiated. Nothing implies Beerus needs to get stronger, when the story never defined his power. You are pretending characters were stronger than him is an outright falsehood. BTW, the Oracle fish stated that Goku will become a formidable rival for Beerus. That means it's a prophetic fact that WILL happen in the future. You guys have a hard time seeing between fact and fiction.

Gogeta was superior to Broly by a wider margin than just "close". Gogeta overpowered Broly multiple times and showed that he was far superior. Even when they clashed Broly was the one that got pushed back and damaged, even needing a moment to collect himself, while Gogeta was unaffected.

Yes that's understood. However, Gogeta needed his most powerful form and multiple attacks to do so.

How can something that has not happened be a DEFINITE FACT???

Wait a minute, are you implying Broly and Gogeta were evenly matched? because that's the only scenario I see where what you propose making any sense. Unless you think they could've chosen to be FT Vegito instead of Gogeta, or that you think dance fusion > potara.
You are saying that Beerus was as strong as Gogeta Blue in the movie, therefore he is stronger than FT Vegito, right?
Two questions then:
1) where is the evidence pointing at Beerus growing in power from FT arc to the movie?
2) did you watch the movie?

Yes I watched the movie. Gogeta needed his Blue form to take down Broly. They are close in power. Also your question about Beerus is unsubstantiated. Nothing implies Beerus needs to get stronger, when the story never defined his power. You are pretending characters were stronger than him is an outright falsehood. BTW, the Oracle fish stated that Goku will become a formidable rival for Beerus. That means it's a prophetic fact that WILL happen in the future. You guys have a hard time seeing between fact and fiction.

It is substantiated when he is stated to be as strong as blue fusion was two arcs ago, and you claim he is stronger than that, so where's the evidence? you can't provide it because it does not exist, unless you are advocating for bad writing, one that ignores what itself provides pretending it never happened, not even trying to explain it, just a quiet retcon.

Broly and Gogeta are so close in power that he landed 0 blows and wasn't killed because of Shenron... the last time two dudes "close in power" had a one-sided fight and one was saved by the bell was... never. Unless Drederick Tatum and Homer were close in power.

I insist, how can something that HAS NOT HAPPENED YET be a FACT? it will be a fact when it happens, as of now October 5th 2020 it is NOT a fact. The only fact is that he spoke those words, and didn't the oracle fish also foresaw an idol moving into Beerus' place? seems like Shin isn't the only one to have been wrong in the past, but seems to be the only one who is "unreliable" and whose words are just his and not the author's... to expand on it, a formidable rival is such a vague term... it could mean so many things, one of them being: he'll be the one who'll force Beerus into getting his shit together, get back to training and become even stronger.

It's a fact since the oracle fish already foresees Goku becoming a rival for Beerus beforehand. He reassured Beerus about this just before the TOP. Gogeta thrashed Broly but he needed his most powerful form and multiple attacks to do so. This doesn't change the fact that Broly needed a stronger fusion to beat him than from FT Vegetto. And "maybe" doesn't mean Beerus is just as strong as a character. That's why Beerus was still used as a benchmark when the power scale ceiling raised with Broly.

[TheQuestioner]

Yes that's understood. However, Gogeta needed his most powerful form and multiple attacks to do so.

That is durability and endurance not power. In terms of durability Broly has shown to be a tank throughout the movie so no that does not work. I do agree that Broly is above SSJ Gogeta and that Gogeta arguably needed his strongest form. But in Blue they did not have a close power gap.

[Skar]

Because Toriyama already established that Beerus was the boss over these opponents from the gate. With the Oracle fish's prophecy. For example, there is no way a TOP Jiren, who couldn't beat UI Goku then can handle UI Goku against Moro. The prophecy hasn't been fulfilled yet since Goku has yet to become a formidable rival for Beerus. However, Goku surpassed Jiren. You can't ignore these facts.

This is same argument you keep giving and still doesn't answer the questions. I tried to reword them a few times in case you weren't sure what I was asking. I'll ask them again.

1. If Toriyama intends for Beerus to be reserved as the strongest, WHY include these statements that imply other characters might be above him in the first place? These statements serve no purpose if you're claiming Beerus was confirmed to stronger than them before they even appeared in the story.

2. Why would he provide evidence within each of their arcs that Golden Freeza, Hit, and Goku Black are weaker than Beerus but not do the same with Jiren and Broly?

[pepd]

I don't have a strong opinion on this or are interested in jumping to conclusion, but about those (and similar) lines: IF they were from Toriyama, I don't think his intention was to state that Broli is more powerful than Beerus, but just to communicate that (WOW, Beerus) Broli is really strong, I wouldn't give it more importance than that, it fulfilled it's purpose and came from an unreliable source, it can be contradicted any time without problem.

[Magnificent Ponta]

I didn't contradict that Goku didn't decide a winner or loser with Broly and Beerus.

Who on Earth said anything about winning or losing? Goku's (provisional) judgement is that Broly is stronger. You're still not actually addressing the points being made. Please stick to the evidence that is under discussion.

Do you have any evidence to suggest that Beerus is stronger than Broly? If so, please provide it. If not, then Goku's judgement stands for the time being.

The degree of his uncertainty doesn't change this fact.

The degree to which there is uncertainty is low, hence why Goku's statement expresses high confidence that Broly is stronger than Beerus - he clearly thinks so. So again, it comes back to whether you have any evidence to counter Goku's assertion. Do you have any?

[Miracles]

Yes that's understood. However, Gogeta needed his most powerful form and multiple attacks to do so.

That is durability and endurance not power. In terms of durability Broly has shown to be a tank throughout the movie so no that does not work. I do agree that Broly is above SSJ Gogeta and that Gogeta arguably needed his strongest form. But in Blue they did not have a close power gap.

In DB durability is power since it is backed by Ki level. It's called balance.

Because Toriyama already established that Beerus was the boss over these opponents from the gate. With the Oracle fish's prophecy. For example, there is no way a TOP Jiren, who couldn't beat UI Goku then can handle UI Goku against Moro. The prophecy hasn't been fulfilled yet since Goku has yet to become a formidable rival for Beerus. However, Goku surpassed Jiren. You can't ignore these facts.

This is same argument you keep giving and still doesn't answer the questions. I tried to reword them a few times in case you weren't sure what I was asking. I'll ask them again.

1. If Toriyama intends for Beerus to be reserved as the strongest, WHY include these statements that imply other characters might be above him in the first place? These statements serve no purpose if you're claiming Beerus was confirmed to stronger than them before they even appeared in the story.

2. Why would he provide evidence within each of their arcs that Golden Freeza, Hit, and Goku Black are weaker than Beerus but not do the same with Jiren and Broly?

Toriyama already did with the oracle fish prophecy. Goku is stronger than Jiren but has not became a formidable rival for Beerus still. Hence why powerful enemies like Broly are only guessed in comparison to Beerus because he is the benchmark.

I didn't contradict that Goku didn't decide a winner or loser with Broly and Beerus.

Who on Earth said anything about winning or losing? Goku's (provisional) judgement is that Broly is stronger. You're still not actually addressing the points being made. Please stick to the evidence that is under discussion.

Do you have any evidence to suggest that Beerus is stronger than Broly? If so, please provide it. If not, then Goku's judgement stands for the time being.

The degree of his uncertainty doesn't change this fact.

The degree to which there is uncertainty is low, hence why Goku's statement expresses high confidence that Broly is stronger than Beerus - he clearly thinks so. So again, it comes back to whether you have any evidence to counter Goku's assertion. Do you have any?

That's outright false. You don't get it. You don't have any factual points. You are trying to push non facts as truth because of Goku's degree of uncertainty is low. This high degree of sureness does not change the fact that Goku never said Broly is stronger. You are trying too hard to push grey areas as if they determine the outcome. Well they don't and didn't in this case.

[Magnificent Ponta]

That's outright false. You don't get it. You don't have any factual points.

I have a statement from Goku that he thinks Broly is stronger than Beerus (and he's in a decent position to know), which is more evidence than I've seen out of you, despite the fact that I've specifically asked you for any evidence to the contrary about 20 times now.

If you don't have any, you can always admit it, and this exchange can end.

You are trying to push non facts as truth because of Goku's degree of uncertainty is low. This high degree of sureness does not change the fact that Goku never said Broly is stronger.

Basic Assertion -> He (Broly) is stronger than Beerus.
Qualifier -> Probably
Full Statement -> He's probably stronger than Beerus.

How you get from the technically provisional character of the judgement - which certainly is a judgement, no matter how much you dig your heels in, because it's clear he favours Broly in a judgement of strength - to 'Goku basically didn't say anything' is a bizarre line of argument that no-one could reasonably agree with. So I don't agree, I'm afraid.

you are trying too hard to push grey areas as if they determine the outcome. Well they don't and didn't in this case.

I'm not interested in any 'outcome'; I'm simply counting perfectly valid evidence that you aren't - only you don't have any real reason not to, at present, which is why your argument is so weak (and in many places isn't even an argument; just a repetition of semantics).

[Miracles]

That's outright false. You don't get it. You don't have any factual points.

I have a statement from Goku that he thinks Broly is stronger than Beerus (and he's in a decent position to know), which is more evidence than I've seen out of you, despite the fact that I've specifically asked you for any evidence to the contrary about 20 times now.

If you don't have any, you can always admit it, and this exchange can end.

You are trying to push non facts as truth because of Goku's degree of uncertainty is low. This high degree of sureness does not change the fact that Goku never said Broly is stronger.

Basic Assertion -> He (Broly) is stronger than Beerus.
Qualifier -> Probably
Full Statement -> He's probably stronger than Beerus.

How you get from the technically provisional character of the judgement - which certainly is a judgement, no matter how much you dig your heels in, because it's clear he favours Broly in a judgement of strength - to 'Goku basically didn't say anything' is a bizarre line of argument that no-one could reasonably agree with. So I don't agree, I'm afraid.

you are trying too hard to push grey areas as if they determine the outcome. Well they don't and didn't in this case.

I'm not interested in any 'outcome'; I'm simply counting perfectly valid evidence that you aren't - only you don't have any real reason not to, at present, which is why your argument is so weak (and in many places isn't even an argument; just a repetition of semantics).

Goku thinking Broly's "probably" stronger than Beerus is not fact. So show me where he unequivocally said "Broly IS stronger than Beerus?"

[Skar]

Toriyama already did with the oracle fish prophecy. Goku is stronger than Jiren but has not became a formidable rival for Beerus still. Hence why powerful enemies like Broly are only guessed in comparison to Beerus because he is the benchmark.

Since that remains your only argument, I'm going to assume these statements are likely true until the story proves otherwise. If the Oracle Fish's prophecy is brought up again or Beerus is confirmed to be stronger than Vegetto, Jiren, and Broly in a future arc, then I'd be willing to believe these were intended to be false.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Goku thinking Broly's "probably" stronger than Beerus is not fact. So show me where he unequivocally said "Broly IS stronger than Beerus?"

You're asking for something I've never said or tried to say, do why exactly would I want to provide such a statement?

You're constantly dichotomising where it isn't called for (e.g. if Goku isn't totally certain, he's just 'uncertain', as opposed to 'relatively certain'), and this seems to stand behind everything you're saying - which is why I can't agree with you, and will continue to push this (though it may exasperate you).

I've said that Goku clearly thinks it is true, and that this is legitimate evidence for anyone who wishes to use it. Which should be blindingly obvious, saying as he does that "He's probably stronger than Beerus-Sama!". So, It's clear he favours Broly in a judgement of strength, and the only things that can reasonably undermine the assertion are:

• An impeachment of Goku's position (i.e., to claim and provide evidence that he's not in a position to know)
• A statement to the contrary from someone who may be regarded as authoritative (e.g., someone like Whis countermanding the statement, even if tentatively)
• A demonstration of power, direct or indirect, which shows that Broly is actually not stronger than Beerus, or is arguably not so.

If you have such evidence, then fine; I'm perfectly happy to consider it. Otherwise, I quite literally can't believe the stubbornness with which you're opposing the obvious.

[Miracles]

Goku thinking Broly's "probably" stronger than Beerus is not fact. So show me where he unequivocally said "Broly IS stronger than Beerus?"

You're asking for something I've never said or tried to say, do why exactly would I want to provide such a statement?

You're constantly dichotomising where it isn't called for (e.g. if Goku isn't totally certain, he's just 'uncertain', as opposed to 'relatively certain'), and this seems to stand behind everything you're saying - which is why I can't agree with you, and will continue to push this (though it may exasperate you).

I've said that Goku clearly thinks it is true, and that this is legitimate evidence for anyone who wishes to use it. Which should be blindingly obvious, saying as he does that "He's probably stronger than Beerus-Sama!". So, It's clear he favours Broly in a judgement of strength, and the only things that can reasonably undermine the assertion are:

• An impeachment of Goku's position (i.e., to claim and provide evidence that he's not in a position to know)
• A statement to the contrary from someone who may be regarded as authoritative (e.g., someone like Whis countermanding the statement, even if tentatively)
• A demonstration of power, direct or indirect, which shows that Broly is actually not stronger than Beerus, or is arguably not so.

If you have such evidence, then fine; I'm perfectly happy to consider it. Otherwise, I quite literally can't believe the stubbornness with which you're opposing the obvious.

Goku doesn't think his statement is true. That's only from your feelings. That's why I asked you to show me where Goku outright makes an absolute truthful statement.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Goku doesn't think his statement is true.

Of all the claims you have made, 'Goku doesn't think he's telling the truth when he says something' is the most baffling. That is frankly risible; there's no other word for it. Of course Goku thinks his claim is correct, else he wouldn't make it in the first place. To suggest otherwise is totally absurd.

I assume what you actually mean is just a return to your previous, unconvincing, dichotomy that 'if Goku isn't totally certain, then he's just uncertain, and isn't really saying anything' - which simply cannot be sustained, and which I've already dealt with, but here it is again:

Goku says, "He's probably stronger than Beerus-Sama!" (<- Note: claim being made). So, It's clear he favours Broly in a judgement of strength, and the only things that can reasonably undermine the assertion are:

• An impeachment of Goku's position (i.e., to claim and provide evidence that he's not in a position to make that judgement accurately)
• A statement to the contrary from someone who may be regarded as authoritative (e.g., someone like Whis countermanding the statement, even if tentatively)
• A demonstration of power, direct or indirect, which shows that Broly is actually not stronger than Beerus, or is arguably not so.

If you have such evidence, then fine; I'm perfectly happy to consider it. Do you actually have any evidence at all?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Freeza disproves the idea that Broly has to be perfectly balanced across the board, anyways, as do many other fighters across the series.

Dude is legitimately far more durable than he has any right to be for his given power level; Dyspo is far faster than his actual strength would suggest; one of the Universe 9 fighters was a whole lot more durable with a body of iron than his strength would suggest; and other examples.

It's not a stretch to think that Super Saiyan Full Power Broly's massive muscular state and general tenacity/insanity would afford him the ability to keep going even though SSB Gogeta is overwhelmingly more powerful than him and beating on him really hard.

[Miracles]

Goku doesn't think his statement is true.

Of all the claims you have made, 'Goku doesn't think he's telling the truth when he says something' is the most baffling. That is frankly risible; there's no other word for it. Of course Goku thinks his claim is correct, else he wouldn't make it in the first place. To suggest otherwise is totally absurd.

I assume what you actually mean is just a return to your previous, unconvincing, dichotomy that 'if Goku isn't totally certain, then he's just uncertain, and isn't really saying anything' - which simply cannot be sustained, and which I've already dealt with, but here it is again:

Goku says, "He's probably stronger than Beerus-Sama!" (<- Note: claim being made). So, It's clear he favours Broly in a judgement of strength, and the only things that can reasonably undermine the assertion are:

• An impeachment of Goku's position (i.e., to claim and provide evidence that he's not in a position to make that judgement accurately)
• A statement to the contrary from someone who may be regarded as authoritative (e.g., someone like Whis countermanding the statement, even if tentatively)
• A demonstration of power, direct or indirect, which shows that Broly is actually not stronger than Beerus, or is arguably not so.

If you have such evidence, then fine; I'm perfectly happy to consider it. Do you actually have any evidence at all?

Provide proof for something Goku couldn't even provide evidence for with his uncertain statement?
Goku inconclusively favoring doesn't mean he thinks his statement true either.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Provide proof for something Goku couldn't even provide evidence for with his uncertain statement?

You're the one arguing that Beerus is stronger than Broly; don't you have any evidence to support it?

EDIT, since you changed your post:

Goku inconclusively favoring doesn't mean he thinks his statement true either.

To make a claim is to assume the claim is true, unless one is claiming a thing in deliberate bad faith. Please don't bother with non-arguments like this.

[Miracles]

Provide proof for something Goku couldn't even provide evidence for with his uncertain statement?

You're the one arguing that Beerus is stronger than Broly; don't you have any evidence to support it?

EDIT, since you changed your post:

Goku inconclusively favoring doesn't mean he thinks his statement true either.

To make a claim is to assume the claim is true, unless one is claiming a thing in deliberate bad faith. Please don't bother with non-arguments like this.

Goku didn't make a claim, he made an assumptive claim. Therefore he doesn't assume it to be truth. Also, in our discussion, I never stated Beerus was stronger than Broly, pertaining to this statement. I've repeatedly told you it is left open by Goku's statement.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Goku didn't make a claim, he made an assumptive claim. Therefore he doesn't assume it to be absolute truth. Also, in our discussion, I never stated Beerus was stronger than Broly, pertaining to this statement. I've repeatedly told you it is left open by Goku's statement.

Firstly, you have quite clearly stated in this thread that Beerus is stronger than all the other foes, until he is beaten. And frankly, if you didn't think so, there would have been no need for me to have ever referenced this statement (and I've referred to this position of yours often). So your position is clearly relevant, and actual evidence for it would be welcome.

If you'd just said, 'I don't think Beerus is stronger than Broly, but I don't think much of this particular piece of evidence, so I don't recognise it and leave it completely open', I'd've disagreed, but left you to it. But that isn't what you've said. You've said that Beerus is stronger, provided no evidence, and dismissively responded to evidence against your argument (and it is evidence) on the basis of a really unconvincing semantic claim to the effect that whatever is not 100% certain may as well be 0% certain, and can't be used. Which is totally unsustainable.

Secondly, that a claim is qualified or provisional doesn't somehow make it 'not a claim' - you're arguing in circles again by talking about absolute truth and all this stuff that I never mentioned and which mischaracterises my statement and the basis of the argument, so please don't bother - just address the matter that Goku makes a statement, however qualified, to the effect that Broly is stronger than Beerus.

[Miracles]

Goku didn't make a claim, he made an assumptive claim. Therefore he doesn't assume it to be absolute truth. Also, in our discussion, I never stated Beerus was stronger than Broly, pertaining to this statement. I've repeatedly told you it is left open by Goku's statement.

Firstly, you have quite clearly stated in this thread that Beerus is stronger than all the other foes, until he is beaten. And frankly, if you didn't think so, there would have been no need for me to have ever referenced this statement (and I've referred to this position of yours often). So your position is clearly relevant, and actual evidence for it would be welcome.

If you'd just said, 'I don't think Beerus is stronger than Broly, but I don't think much of this particular piece of evidence, so I don't recognise it and leave it completely open', I'd've disagreed, but left you to it. But that isn't what you've said. You've said that Beerus is stronger, provided no evidence, and dismissively responded to evidence against your argument (and it is evidence) on the basis of a really unconvincing semantic claim to the effect that whatever is not 100% certain may as well be 0% certain, and can't be used. Which is totally unsustainable.

Secondly, that a claim is qualified or provisional doesn't somehow make it 'not a claim' - you're arguing in circles again by talking about absolute truth and all this stuff that I never mentioned and which mischaracterises my statement and the basis of the argument, so please don't bother - just address the matter that Goku makes a statement, however qualified, to the effect that Broly is stronger than Beerus.

The other topics about Beerus were in other discussions. You and I was specifically on the Broly statement. So you've been shadow boxing because of your mixup.

[Magnificent Ponta]

The other topics about Beerus were in other discussions.

That couldn't be less relevant. It is your position, clearly expressed in this very topic, and I have argued against it on the basis we have been discussing.

You and I was specifically on the Broly statement.

Yes, because it is evidence in favour of the contention that Broly is stronger than Beerus. As has been stated many times, and as is very obvious. Are you saying you didn't catch that, despite my repeating it several times in this argument? I'm afraid I find that very hard indeed to believe.

So you've been shadow boxing because of your mixup.

If you'd like to say that you don't actually think Beerus is stronger than Broly, I'm all ears. Otherwise, it's clear I haven't mixed anything up, and I'm precisely on target.

[Miracles]

The other topics about Beerus were in other discussions.

That couldn't be less relevant. It is your position, clearly expressed in this very topic, and I have argued against it on the basis we have been discussing.

You and I was specifically on the Broly statement.

Yes, because it is evidence in favour of the contention that Broly is stronger than Beerus. As has been stated many times, and as is very obvious. Are you saying you didn't catch that, despite my repeating it several times in this argument? I'm afraid I find that very hard indeed to believe.

So you've been shadow boxing because of your mixup.

If you'd like to say that you don't actually think Beerus is stronger than Broly, I'm all ears. Otherwise, it's clear I haven't mixed anything up, and I'm precisely on target.

I've stated repeatedly, the statement on Beerus and Broly is inconclusively left open.