Is Dabra (Buu Saga) SSj2-level?

[JFK]

Chapter: 461 (DBZ 267), P3.5-7
Context: after Kaioshin says they must run from Boo
Gohan: "...Is that so?.....He really does have tremendous ki, but...It doesn't seem like so much so that there's nothing I can do...[ ] ...If I can only put out all of my true power..."

SSj2 Gohan > Fat Boo (Initial)

Chapter: 461 (DBZ 267), P7.6
Dabra: "I don't know why, but it seems we failed...I thought [Boo] had finally appeared, but it's just some stupid-looking raw garbage, without brains or power..."

Dabra is unimpressed, and is later ready to throw down with Boo when he stances up.

Dabra >/~ SSj2 Gohan > Fat Boo (Initial)?

What's your take on this? I don't see how Dabra can sense Boo's power, dismiss him as a failure and be ready to fight if, as some fans believe, Dabra is only SSj-level.

[precita]

They said he was on the same level as Cell, didn't they? So probably a little below SSJ2 since Gohan could beat Cell.

[Matches Malone]

I don't think he is, as a rusty Gohan was holding his own against him. Cell arc Ssj2 Gohan, Ssj2 Goku, & Ssj2 Majin Vegeta could've easily put him 6ft under.

[Hugo Boss]

They said he was on the same level as Cell, didn't they? So probably a little below SSJ2 since Gohan could beat Cell.

Goku said it, but he later corrected himself by saying Dabra was way stronger than he thought. I have no idea how strong this means, but it certainly seems like he is manageable by a SS2.

[TobyS]

He's compared to Cell intially and then Goku revises that estimate upwards mostly due to his magic.

Trunks beats him once he turns SS2 and vegeta is more than happy to fight Dabra knowing he has his non majin SS2 power.

So we have a weird situation. We also don't know if Dabra trained at all in the future although I'm guessing not.

Goku SS2=Majin Vegeta > SS2 Gohan Cell Games >=SS2 Vegeta >=SS2 Trunks >=SS2 Gohan (Budokai) Dabra > Cell=Dabra initial estimate > SS1 Gohan > SS1 Trunks

You can say SS1 Trunks was just further along with the battle and more wounded and that Gohan would have eventually started loosing like that. Or that Dabra trained more and widened the gap. You can possibly say SS2 Gohan was still stronger then Trunks but there's a lack of feats to decide either way. Gohan seems very confident if he can access his full power Dabra will be no problem. Kaioshin holds Dabra for Trunks although he doesn't ask him to. Trunks is also more wounded by this point...

Gohan does better in SS1 then Trunks does. Which may seem weird because trunks has had years to train and Gohan is regarded as weaker in the buu saga but iirc I think only Gohans max (SS2) is weaker, because Goku and Geets don't confirm Gohans weaker now untill they see his SS2 at the tourney and even then Geets brushes off the idea of Gohan and Kaioshin being ok later with like “eh who knows what will happen if Gohan goes beserk” so Gohans not so far off that a little rage boost couldn't close the gap. I think a lot of the Gohan is weak thing is mostly more annoyance that he didn't IMPROVE. I think he was initially weaker but training for the budokai probably put him in similar base and SS1. I'm pretty sure this is alluded to when Goku says he wonders how strong Gohan has gotten by now and Gohan awkwardly laughs it off (going by memory here)

And bear in mind Goku was a LOT stronger then cell games Trunks and Vegeta and Gohan was a LOT stronger then Cell games Goku, he literally thought he wasn't trying Vs Cell (as he assumed he was above his own level)

So Trunks has room to improve but still not be able to beat SPC tier guys w.o SS2

[TobyS]

I don't think he is, as a rusty Gohan was holding his own against him. Cell arc Ssj2 Gohan, Ssj2 Goku, & Ssj2 Majin Vegeta could've easily put him 6ft under.

The thing is even SPC Cell is the weakest SS2 character we ever see and Cell Games Gohan/Buu Goku/Buu Geets SS1s are the strongest pre super SS1s we ever see so it's not impossible. I also personally don't think Gohans got much weaker in SS1 of at all. They only really start to comment on Gohan getting weaker when they see his SS2 at the tournament.

[Koitsukai]

I think not. I base this on the fight he had with SS Gohan. He had the edge but wasn't really that much stronger, and we know he wasn't holding anything back, his objective was to get energy by hurting Gohan and was being controlled by Babidi, so no ulterior motives.

I think the confusion lies with the daizenshuu saying Gohan was a SS2 vs Dabura, when he actually wasn't. Because the fight is pretty clear, he wasn't stomping SS Gohan like a SS2 tier would.

To me: SS > Perfect Cell > Dabura > Super Perfect Cell > SS2

[Magnificent Ponta]

Woooow. This old chestnut of a topic, huh? Figure I'll skirt the whole 'fighting SSj Gohan' bit.

Anyway. Basically, I'd say Dabura fits snugly between the general SSj and SSj2 tiers of power. He's above one, but below the other (like Perfect Cell). You can go back and forth as to which tier he's closer to (it possibly shades slightly towards SSj2, on balance), but I'd say in general, that's basically it.

With respect to his position on Buu's initial power, I think Vegeta's position probably adds another relevant aspect to it:

Chapter: 461 (DBZ 267), P4.6, P5.4-6
Goku: “It’s a ki…! A huge ki has appeared…! Majin Boo has finally come out…”
Vegeta: “Fuffuffuh…Majin Boo, huh?...Here I was wondering what kind of amazing guy he would be, and he’s got this kind of battle power number?...I thought so…Kakarot, you and I have now become too strong…By a wide margin!

So, from a more powerful SSj2 perspective, Buu's initial power is actually quite low. So, plausibly, he could be thought of as a manageable foe in the bracket between SSj2 and SSj, as well, particularly compared to how he's been built up prior to this - I guess Dabura's just showing a broadly similar attitude to Vegeta, in that regard.

As for Gohan's statement, I'd read it less as a 'maybe I could do something if I use my full power', and more as a direct rebuttal of Kaioshin's statement in the previous chapter that they have to run because no-one can beat Buu - he's saying if he goes SSj2 and finds the same power as he had in Cell Games, he's sure of winning no matter what. Basically, he's not all that impressed. Which would seem to track well enough with what we've seen.

[theherodjl]

The fact that Dabura was panting while fighting a non-angry SSJ2 Gohan that had some degree of power still drained from him says it all. When a villain with clear SSJ2-tier strength attacked Dabura, he got beat down pretty bad. There isn't really much to Dabura other than his magic. He might have Perfect Cell-tier strength but he's not particularly impressive as a fighter without some kind of gimmick to back him up.

[JFK]

Interesting responses, guys. Thanks.

The fact that Dabura was panting while fighting a non-angry SSJ2 Gohan that had some degree of power still drained from him says it all.

I reread the fight this morning, and I'm pretty sure the panting was coming from Gohan. Here's how it goes:

Dabra blocks three punches from SSj2 Gohan. Gohan connects with a spinning back kick. Dabra counters with a stream of fire, which Gohan evades. He charges Dabra, who tricks him into attacking an afterimage, and tags him with a fireball. Gohan emerges from the rubble sweatdropping and charges him again. Dabra uses his stone spit, which Gohan surmounts by removing the affected piece of clothing. Dabra charges him, materializing a sword, which Gohan catches and with considerable exertion snaps in half. Dabra discards his broken sword while Gohan is seen slouching over, accompanied by panting sounds. Dabra transfers his attention to Vegeta and the story progresses.

So, yeah. Without getting into all the tiny details and chains, I have Dabra as a SSj2-level fighter. He's on the low end of the spectrum along with Fat Boo (Initial), SSj2 Gohan (Rusty) and SSj2 Gohan (Rusty, "True Power.")

[theherodjl]

I reread the fight this morning, and I'm pretty sure the panting was coming from Gohan. Here's how it goes:

Dabra blocks three punches from SSj2 Gohan. Gohan connects with a spinning back kick. Dabra counters with a stream of fire, which Gohan evades. He charges Dabra, who tricks him into attacking an afterimage, and tags him with a fireball. Gohan emerges from the rubble sweatdropping and charges him again. Dabra uses his stone spit, which Gohan surmounts by removing the affected piece of clothing. Dabra charges him, materializing a sword, which Gohan catches and with considerable exertion snaps in half. Dabra discards his broken sword while Gohan is seen slouching over, accompanied by panting sounds. Dabra transfers his attention to Vegeta and the story progresses.

I reread it again myself and the panting seems to be coming all around each other in the panel as well both giving off beads of sweat in the previous panel, they even both stop to rest for several seconds before getting back into battle poses. It is then that Dabura changes his attention once Vegeta angrily declares that he is tired of waiting to battle Goku and that he'll end the fight himself.

[miguelnuva1]

Goku and Vegeta both agree they can beat Dabra before either one knows the other has SS2. When Gohan fights Dabra as a SS1 it is his skill that is called into action.

[TobyS]

Goku and Vegeta both agree they can beat Dabra before either one knows the other has SS2. When Gohan fights Dabra as a SS1 it is his skill that is called into action.

How does the wording work in the manga, each one knows they themselves have SS2 and they wouldn't dispute the other could do it without knowing they can't.

Besides it's possible that one of them could be so strong that they could do it in SS1, they haven't seen each others full power in any form.

[TobyS]

Goku and Vegeta both agree they can beat Dabra before either one knows the other has SS2. When Gohan fights Dabra as a SS1 it is his skill that is called into action.

How do you explain Trunks needing SS2? Despite having like 10 11 years to train presumably w.o slacking

[Grimlock]

But when Trunks faced Dabura, the timeskip wasn't ten years. Cell was defeated in AGE 788 and Goku Black appeared in AGE 796. Dabura appeared at some point during that gap, it could've been one year or seven years after Cell for all we know. That's the amount of time he got to train.