"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Matches Malone]

Just look at the arguments people use to defend this writing: "It's just not who Goku is, remember when he spared Piccolo and Frieza 30 years ago?"... implying that a character can't have some development after 30 years..

None of those hold up because they were completely different circumstances. With Piccolo, not only did he not do anything, killing him would've meant killing Kami. He did however have no issue killing King Piccolo, Tao (although he survived), Buu, and telling Gohan to kill Cell. Goku only let people go when he knew they either no longer posed a threat, or were at a level where he could handle them. What we're asking for isn't anything new, we just want Goku to be written smart like he was in the original manga.

[HeroR]

My final prediction: Something horrible happens, Goku loses the fight, Moro gains a massive advantage.

- BoG: Goku loses the fight, is spared by Beerus.
- RoF: Goku loses the fight, is saved by Whis.
- Universe 6: Goku concedes to Hit.
- Future Trunks: Goku loses the fight badly, is saved by Zeno.
- ToP: Goku loses the fight, is saved by Frieza and 17.
- Broly: Goku loses the fight, needs to fuse.

It's just how Super works, Goku NEVER gets the main win. He might defeat some secondary antagonists like Kefla, but he never beats the main antagonist. So he won't get a traditional win vs. Moro, even if he seems to be dominating right now.

I mean, he would've gotten a big triumph if he didn't spare Moro, but idiots be idiots I guess.

Goku was saved by Vegeta, not Whis. The person who messed up so badly that Whis directly intervene was Vegeta.

Goku actually didn't lose against Merged Zamasu. In the manga, he made Zamasu's fusion run out by fighting him to a draw and Zamasu only got ahead thanks to his immorality messing up. In the anime, Goku damaged Merged Zamasu's body and never directly fights him again after. fusing. In either case, he never lost badly to the guy.

Goku actually won against Jiren as the director of Super stated. What Goku failed to do was knock Jiren out of the ring, but Jiren was defeated. As the director put it, Jiren's beliefs had been shattered, which is why he faired so poorly against 17 and Freeza. And even then, Goku got back up and helped Freeza knock Jiren out of the ring.

So yes, Goku did beat Jiren. Rather you count him beating Jiren mentally or helping to knock him out of the ring.

[SupremeKai25]

Just look at the arguments people use to defend this writing: "It's just not who Goku is, remember when he spared Piccolo and Frieza 30 years ago?"... implying that a character can't have some development after 30 years..

None of those hold up because they were completely different circumstances. With Piccolo, not only did he not do anything, killing him would've meant killing Kami. He did however have no issue killing King Piccolo, Tao (although he survived), Buu, and telling Gohan to kill Cell. Goku only let people go when he knew they either no longer posed a threat, or were at a level where he could handle them. What we're asking for isn't anything new, we just want Goku to be written smart like he was in the original manga.

That's funny, I could've sworn I read in some earlier pages "This is who Goku is, he is stupid, he doesn't think things through, so it's 100% in-character to spare Moro". I read that many times, in fact.

My final prediction: Something horrible happens, Goku loses the fight, Moro gains a massive advantage.

- BoG: Goku loses the fight, is spared by Beerus.
- RoF: Goku loses the fight, is saved by Whis.
- Universe 6: Goku concedes to Hit.
- Future Trunks: Goku loses the fight badly, is saved by Zeno.
- ToP: Goku loses the fight, is saved by Frieza and 17.
- Broly: Goku loses the fight, needs to fuse.

It's just how Super works, Goku NEVER gets the main win. He might defeat some secondary antagonists like Kefla, but he never beats the main antagonist. So he won't get a traditional win vs. Moro, even if he seems to be dominating right now.

I mean, he would've gotten a big triumph if he didn't spare Moro, but idiots be idiots I guess.

Goku was saved by Vegeta, not Whis. The person who messed up so badly that Whis directly intervene was Vegeta.

Goku actually didn't lose against Merged Zamasu. In the manga, he made Zamasu's fusion run out by fighting him to a draw and Zamasu only got ahead thanks to his immorality messing up. In the anime, Goku damaged Merged Zamasu's body and never directly fights him again after. fusing. In either case, he never lost badly to the guy.

Goku actually won against Jiren as the director of Super stated. What Goku failed to do was knock Jiren out of the ring, but Jiren was defeated. As the director put it, Jiren's beliefs had been shattered, which is why he faired so poorly against 17 and Freeza. And even then, Goku got back up and helped Freeza knock Jiren out of the ring.

So yes, Goku did beat Jiren. Rather you count him beating Jiren mentally or helping to knock him out of the ring.

You missed the point. In all these cases, he never got a clear win against the main antagonist. And by "clear win", I mean something like him killing Piccolo, Buu, Baby, or Omega Shenron.

[HeroR]

I mean, I have been saying for one month that it's disappointing how Goku hasn't learned his lesson from RoF... but there are many people in this thread who refuse to let go of the past. The idea that Goku would develop as a character and become more ruthless and merciless is unfathomable, and this is the result.

Just look at the arguments people use to defend this writing: "It's just not who Goku is, remember when he spared Piccolo and Frieza 30 years ago?"... implying that a character can't have some development after 30 years.

Sparing Moro was never the problem since Goku doesn't like to kill begging foes even if they are evil bastards. Rather you consider a lack of growth, that is simply not who Goku is for better and worst.

The problem was that he didn't need to heal Moro and could have just let Jaco arrest him, something Jaco points out.

[Matches Malone]

That's funny, I could've sworn I read in some earlier pages "This is who Goku is, he is stupid, he doesn't think things through, so it's 100% in-character to spare Moro". I read that many times, in fact.

This has been going on for awhile, where "fans" will try to bring down the classic DB in order to make the modern DB look good. Anyone who says Goku was stupid in the original is either lying to themselves or hasn't watch/read it in years.

[Matches Malone]

Goku doesn't like to kill begging foes even if they are evil bastards.

Was Moro even begging for help ? Didn't Goku pull a DBZA and offer him help if he "promised" not to do it again ? I really don't know what can be done to salvage this arc and revival at this point, as the writing is simply terrible.

[Totamo]

meKai25 post_id=1674744 time=1602868755 user_id=121875]
I mean, I have been saying for one month that it's disappointing how Goku hasn't learned his lesson from RoF... but there are many people in this thread who refuse to let go of the past. The idea that Goku would develop as a character and become more ruthless and merciless is unfathomable, and this is the result.

Just look at the arguments people use to defend this writing: "It's just not who Goku is, remember when he spared Piccolo and Frieza 30 years ago?"... implying that a character can't have some development after 30 years.
[/quote]That was me and I think folks misunderstood. I was bringing that stuff up to show why Goku isn't doing that same thing here as each time he spared a villain, it was for different reasons and it made sense

The thing is Goku already developed 30 years ago, Super shouldn't be focused on Goku's development as a character but as a fighter. Manga Goku in super has been doing that exactly and anime Goku letting his guard down gave way to ultra instinct which fixed that problem

Thats why so many folks are mad about this. Goku wouldn't do this. Goku hasn't done this.

[Ziegander]

I was totally fine with the senzu if it led to something else besides Goku letting his guard down and getting his neck grabbed...which seems to have possibly happened. His body is meant to move on it's own now, it should be impossible to let his guard down while in the form. It not needing the connections from his brain is the entire point.

Hoping that Moro gaining an upper hand is for any other reason than that.

Honestly, I hope the leak is entirely bogus. I'm so, so tired of this arc. Please just end it already. For the love of god, nobody likes Moro as a villain anymore. He's so fucking boring. I was fine with the senzu too until it was revealed that he expected Moro to turn himself in and willingly allow himself to be imprisoned, again, for eternity. That was the stupidest thing I've read for a while, and we still aren't sure if that translation is accurate either, but then to stack the possibility that somehow Goku now not only is bested by the restored Moro but that Moro gains a fucking new form?! It's just padding and already bloated arc that everyone has been tired of for months. When will it end?? Make it stop!

Goku does the Goku thing and then Beerus and Whis save the day again? If Moro gains a new form, there's literally nothing anyone else could do, so... Well, I guess the Sealing Technique, though, I don't know how or why that would work when it originally cost Grand Supreme Kai nearly all of his magic power, and that was against, one assumes, a weaker Moro. So... Neither Buu nor Grand Supreme Kai should have the magic power they'd need to seal this more powerful Moro now, leaving it up to Beerus and/or Whis.

And even that's... fine... I guess IF there are major consequences for Goku after this arc and not just, "Man, I'm so glad you guys were here, we would have been done for!" "Yes, Goku, now where are my NOODLES?!" haha, everyone laughs, Vegeta and Piccolo scowl, and then off we go into the next arc. Jesus... "I... I did it again," please tell me that's some bullshit, because that's literally self parody at this point.

[Totamo]

Goku doesn't like to kill begging foes even if they are evil bastards.

Was Moro even begging for help ? Didn't Goku pull a DBZA and offer him help if he "promised" not to do it again ? I really don't know what can be done to salvage this arc and revival at this point, as the writing is simply terrible.

Yeah he was last chapter.

[HeroR]

Just look at the arguments people use to defend this writing: "It's just not who Goku is, remember when he spared Piccolo and Frieza 30 years ago?"... implying that a character can't have some development after 30 years..

None of those hold up because they were completely different circumstances. With Piccolo, not only did he not do anything, killing him would've meant killing Kami. He did however have no issue killing King Piccolo, Tao (although he survived), Buu, and telling Gohan to kill Cell. Goku only let people go when he knew they either no longer posed a threat, or were at a level where he could handle them. What we're asking for isn't anything new, we just want Goku to be written smart like he was in the original manga.

That's funny, I could've sworn I read in some earlier pages "This is who Goku is, he is stupid, he doesn't think things through, so it's 100% in-character to spare Moro". I read that many times, in fact.

My final prediction: Something horrible happens, Goku loses the fight, Moro gains a massive advantage.

- BoG: Goku loses the fight, is spared by Beerus.
- RoF: Goku loses the fight, is saved by Whis.
- Universe 6: Goku concedes to Hit.
- Future Trunks: Goku loses the fight badly, is saved by Zeno.
- ToP: Goku loses the fight, is saved by Frieza and 17.
- Broly: Goku loses the fight, needs to fuse.

It's just how Super works, Goku NEVER gets the main win. He might defeat some secondary antagonists like Kefla, but he never beats the main antagonist. So he won't get a traditional win vs. Moro, even if he seems to be dominating right now.

I mean, he would've gotten a big triumph if he didn't spare Moro, but idiots be idiots I guess.

Goku was saved by Vegeta, not Whis. The person who messed up so badly that Whis directly intervene was Vegeta.

Goku actually didn't lose against Merged Zamasu. In the manga, he made Zamasu's fusion run out by fighting him to a draw and Zamasu only got ahead thanks to his immorality messing up. In the anime, Goku damaged Merged Zamasu's body and never directly fights him again after. fusing. In either case, he never lost badly to the guy.

Goku actually won against Jiren as the director of Super stated. What Goku failed to do was knock Jiren out of the ring, but Jiren was defeated. As the director put it, Jiren's beliefs had been shattered, which is why he faired so poorly against 17 and Freeza. And even then, Goku got back up and helped Freeza knock Jiren out of the ring.

So yes, Goku did beat Jiren. Rather you count him beating Jiren mentally or helping to knock him out of the ring.

You missed the point. In all these cases, he never got a clear win against the main antagonist. And by "clear win", I mean something like him killing Piccolo, Buu, Baby, or Omega Shenron.

Not having a clear win isn't the same as saying Goku lost. And even Buu wasn't a clear win since he only did it with the help of Vegeta, Buu, Mr. Satan, the Namekian Dragon Balls, and everyone on Earth. Even Goku doesn't see Buu as a clear win because he didn't beat Buu on his own. King Piccolo was also not technically a 'clean win' since he needed Tien to dodge Piccolo's most powerful attack after he disabled his leg. Baby was also not a 'clean win' since he needed to be repowered by Gohan, Goten, Pan, and Trunks because Baby was kicking his ass before then and Uub gave Baby stomach pains.

[SupremeKai25]

Not having a clear win isn't the same as saying Goku lost. And even Buu wasn't a clear win since he only did it with the help of Vegeta, Buu, Mr. Satan, the Namekian Dragon Balls, and everyone on Earth. Even Goku doesn't see Buu as a clear win because he didn't beat Buu on his own. King Piccolo was also not technically a 'clean win' since he needed Tien to dodge Piccolo's most powerful attack after he disabled his leg. Baby was also not a 'clean win' since he needed to be repowered by Gohan, Goten, Pan, and Trunks because Baby was kicking his ass before then and Uub gave Baby stomach pains.

But he still lost. He lost vs. Golden Frieza because he was oneshot, and wouldn't have been able to kill him if it wasn't for Whis rewinding time. He lost vs. Fused Zamasu because he NEVER had the strength to kill him, that's why they fuse into Vegito in the first place. He lost vs. Jiren because his UI ran out, at which point he was saved only by Frieza's intervention. What ensued was a 1v3 gang up on Jiren. It was very predictable that Goku wouldn't kill Moro, regardless the execution is trash.

I will concede if you can give me an example from Super of an arc ending with Goku killing the main antagonist. Without an angel saving everyone at the last moment. Spoilers: There isn't one.

[Matches Malone]

"Man, I'm so glad you guys were here, we would have been done for!" "Yes, Goku, now where are my NOODLES?!" haha, everyone laughs, Vegeta and Piccolo scowl, and then off we go into the next arc. Jesus... "

This is exactly what's going to happen, the only difference maybe being the kind of food Beerus asks for. If you're interested in good writing, you can either re-watch the original material from the 80s-90s or watch/read other anime and manga, because quality writing at this point is something DB isn't interested in.

[HeroR]

Goku doesn't like to kill begging foes even if they are evil bastards.

Was Moro even begging for help ? Didn't Goku pull a DBZA and offer him help if he "promised" not to do it again ? I really don't know what can be done to salvage this arc and revival at this point, as the writing is simply terrible.

Yes, on one of the last pages, Moro was literally begging Goku not to kill him. It was very classic Freeza on Namek who Goku helped despite wanting to leave Freeza to die. The difference being that Freeza was actually dying, while Moro just got his shit kicked in.

So yes, Goku wouldn't kill a foe begging for their life, that simply not his character. At the same time, as I keep saying, he didn't need to heal him since Moro wasn't in mortal danger.

[Totamo]

I mean, I have been saying for one month that it's disappointing how Goku hasn't learned his lesson from RoF... but there are many people in this thread who refuse to let go of the past. The idea that Goku would develop as a character and become more ruthless and merciless is unfathomable, and this is the result.

Just look at the arguments people use to defend this writing: "It's just not who Goku is, remember when he spared Piccolo and Frieza 30 years ago?"... implying that a character can't have some development after 30 years.

That was me and I think folks misunderstood. I was bringing that stuff up to show why Goku isn't doing that same thing here as each time he spared a villain, it was for different reasons and it made sense. The argument was that Goku wasn't sparing him but baiting Moro to attack him which Moro would not have done if he wasn't healed. The twist would been that Goku knew the outcome of his decision unlike the other times.

That could still happen and moro gains the upper hand for a different reason.

The thing is Goku already developed 30 years ago, Super shouldn't be focused on Goku's development as a character but as a fighter. Manga Goku in super has been doing that exactly and anime Goku letting his guard down gave way to ultra instinct which fixed that problem

[HeroR]

Not having a clear win isn't the same as saying Goku lost. And even Buu wasn't a clear win since he only did it with the help of Vegeta, Buu, Mr. Satan, the Namekian Dragon Balls, and everyone on Earth. Even Goku doesn't see Buu as a clear win because he didn't beat Buu on his own. King Piccolo was also not technically a 'clean win' since he needed Tien to dodge Piccolo's most powerful attack after he disabled his leg. Baby was also not a 'clean win' since he needed to be repowered by Gohan, Goten, Pan, and Trunks because Baby was kicking his ass before then and Uub gave Baby stomach pains.

But he still lost. He lost vs. Golden Frieza because he was oneshot, and wouldn't have been able to kill him if it wasn't for Whis rewinding time. He lost vs. Fused Zamasu because he NEVER had the strength to kill him, that's why they fuse into Vegito in the first place. He lost vs. Jiren because his UI ran out, at which point he was saved only by Frieza's intervention. What ensued was a 1v3 gang up on Jiren. It was very predictable that Goku wouldn't kill Moro, regardless the execution is trash.

I will concede if you can give me an example from Super of an arc ending with Goku killing the main antagonist. Spoilers: There isn't one.

Technically, he lost to Sorbet, not Freeza, and then he won in the end since he killed Freeza. Against Zamasu, it wasn't a matter of strength in the manga since Goku was even with Zamasu and nearly erased him. The problem was, he couldn't kill Zamasu no matter what he did because Zamasu literally couldn't die. Not even Beerus could kill Zamasu despite him being way stronger.

Jiren was the one who lost in the anime since he was defeated mentally and physically. Knocking him out was more or less a formality at that point, and even then Goku still knocked Jiren out of the ring with Freeza helped in both versions. Especially in the anime where if Goku didn't return to the ring, Jiren would have knocked out Freeza and 17, so he returned the bailout.

He killed Freeza at the end of Resurrection 'F' regardless if you say Whis help if you're going to count Goku killing Buu or Baby and Zamasu literally couldn't die as I pointed out. Every other foe, Goku couldn't kill because it was a tournament or he didn't want to kill like Broly. Remember, Goku was actually winning against Broly and Freeze had to intervened to get Broly to go Super Saiyan.

[Matches Malone]

He killed Freeza at the end of Resurrection 'F' regardless if you say Whis help if you're going to count Goku killing Buu.

Goku didn't need someone to rewind time so he could kill Buu and Baby.

[HeroR]

I mean, I have been saying for one month that it's disappointing how Goku hasn't learned his lesson from RoF... but there are many people in this thread who refuse to let go of the past. The idea that Goku would develop as a character and become more ruthless and merciless is unfathomable, and this is the result.

Just look at the arguments people use to defend this writing: "It's just not who Goku is, remember when he spared Piccolo and Frieza 30 years ago?"... implying that a character can't have some development after 30 years.

That was me and I think folks misunderstood. I was bringing that stuff up to show why Goku isn't doing that same thing here as each time he spared a villain, it was for different reasons and it made sense. The argument was that Goku wasn't sparing him but baiting Moro to attack him which Moro would not have done if he wasn't healed. The twist would been that Goku knew the outcome of his decision unlike other times.

That could still happen and moro gains the upper hand for a different reason.

The thing is Goku already developed 30 years ago, Super shouldn't be focused on Goku's development as a character but as a fighter. Manga Goku in super has been doing that exactly and anime Goku letting his guard down gave way to ultra instinct which fixed that problem

Thats why so many folks are mad about this. Goku wouldn't do this. Goku hasn't done this.

Goku did have subtile development as a character in Super, at least in the anime. He went from hating working the farm and finding any reason to ditch it to actually finding some joy in it and providing for his family. He accepts that Gohan isn't a fighter and supports him in his career, telling Gohan not to feel bad about not being part of the first tournament. He also went from saying to Denda that he wasn't interesting in being a teacher when he asked him train Uub when he's older to training Cali and Kale. There was also a full circle moment of Goku not liking Super Saiyan God because it wasn't his power that he achieved on his own, to accepting that he wasn't a self-made man and he got where he was because of his friends and family supporting him to the point that he called UI 'our power' to Jiren, not 'his power'.

Nothing major or groundbreaking, but it was there.

[Totamo]

He killed Freeza at the end of Resurrection 'F' regardless if you say Whis help if you're going to count Goku killing Buu.

Goku didn't need someone to rewind time so he could kill Buu and Baby.

Well, he needed the dragon balls to kill Buu and if I remember correctly to beat baby, ubb had to go inside him.

[HeroR]

He killed Freeza at the end of Resurrection 'F' regardless if you say Whis help if you're going to count Goku killing Buu.

Goku didn't need someone to rewind time so he could kill Buu and Baby.

Missing the point.

To kill Buu, Goku didn't just need the help of his friends to make the Spirit Bomb (with that only being possible to begin with because the Dragon Balls revived everyone killed by Buu outside of the bad people) and distract Kid Buu, he needed the help of the Namekian Dragon Balls to restore his power since without them, Kid Buu would have killed Goku with his own Spirit Bomb. That and Goku and Vegeta would have died when Kid Buu blew up the Earth if Shin didn't saved them.

Against Baby, he needed Pan to talk sense into him when he went out of control as a Golden Great Ape and he needed Goten, Gohan, Pan, and Trunks to repower him after Baby and him doubled KO each other. Uub also saved Goku by distracting Baby by giving his stomach pains when everyone was recharging Goku. In fact, Gohan, Goten, and Trunks were only around to help Goku because Shin went to Kami’s Lookout and got the healing water to free them from their brainwashing.

[Totamo]

I mean, I have been saying for one month that it's disappointing how Goku hasn't learned his lesson from RoF... but there are many people in this thread who refuse to let go of the past. The idea that Goku would develop as a character and become more ruthless and merciless is unfathomable, and this is the result.

Just look at the arguments people use to defend this writing: "It's just not who Goku is, remember when he spared Piccolo and Frieza 30 years ago?"... implying that a character can't have some development after 30 years.

Sparing Moro was never the problem since Goku doesn't like to kill begging foes even if they are evil bastards. Rather you consider a lack of growth, that is simply not who Goku is for better and worst.

The problem was that he didn't need to heal Moro and could have just let Jaco arrest him, something Jaco points out.

Thats what most folks are saying.