What is the likelihood of them introducing a Super Saiyan version of Ultra Instinct in the future?

[GodVegetto91]

Two thirds of this is headcanon and never stated in series, the only accurate part of it is your comments on SSJ God, which, if you have to train super hard to achieve it, and transform into it on several future occasions, it is a separate form than base form.

You seem highly defensive of your own ideas but instinctively dismiss other peoples ideas as inferior to yours and it just seems rude to be honest.

What is headcanon about this scene?
https://youtu.be/Pv9986xgY5E

This is an actual scene from the Anime where Whis states that Goku and Vegeta need to control their ki, by keeping their aura’s hidden within their bodies and then powering up after that. After they did this, you could clearly see that the SSJ Blue’s energy was starting to emerge. There is no headcanon about this. It’s literally in the show itself!

Also, it’s a fact that Vegeta’s Spirit Control training revolved around “calming his spirit” through meditation in the manga.. THAT was clearly seen and stated by the elder Yardrat. What’s headcanon about that??

After his training was complete, he suddenly gained far more power.. Through what other mechanism was this able to occur other than a potential unlock?? The fact is, after Vegeta calmed his mind/spirit enough, he was able to awaken (bring out) more of his power, hence why he got more powerful.. Why was this?? How was he able to do this? It was because with this higher level of mental clarity, he had become “more AWARE” of his inner potential, and thus was able to bring it out. Again, I’m unable to see why this would be headcanon, since it’s literally citing all the facts involved. You seem to be obsessed with political correctness and being nice. But the truth is the truth. It’s literally all there.

Since you cherry picked before responding i'll do the same and reply to one specific part before moving on, the bolded part if it helps.

You seem to think i'm somebody else unless thinking UI + SSJG would look nice is anything other than subjective, but not only that somehow preaching political correctness. Unless it was me pointing out your attitude is anything but constructive, that isn't me worrying about political correctness, that is me pointing out that you're arguing in bad faith.

With that though, i'll be done here since you dont want others opinions and you seem to be unsure who you're even interacting with, so this topic seems kind of closed off to the potential to any form of discussion.

Buh-bye now.

Weren’t you the one who started to diagnose my attitude and called me rude? Yes you were. That’s why I quoted you. I did not quote the wrong person, I quoted exactly the person I wanted to quote.

But you’re right. This going back and forth between us is getting nowhere. I too, have had enough, we should probably end this debate right now since none of us will come to some form of agreement on here.

Have a nice day!

[Koitsukai]

Third, Super Saiyan God is the next step after Super Saiyan 3 in the evolutionary line, followed by Super Saiyan Blue (or Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan...). This has become clear in the manga by Goku demonstrating it twice, against Future Trunks and Toppo. Ultra Instinct is not lumped together with Saiyan forms. Goku doesn’t go Ultra Instinct after he becomes a Super Saiyan. Has anyone seen it?

Yeah, doesn't this panel prove your point as well?

Spoiler:

[Hugo Boss]

Yeah, doesn't this panel prove your point as well?

I just forgot it. Thanks for pointing that out.

[HeroR]

Third, Super Saiyan God is the next step after Super Saiyan 3 in the evolutionary line, followed by Super Saiyan Blue (or Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan...). This has become clear in the manga by Goku demonstrating it twice, against Future Trunks and Toppo. Ultra Instinct is not lumped together with Saiyan forms. Goku doesn’t go Ultra Instinct after he becomes a Super Saiyan. Has anyone seen it?

Yeah, doesn't this panel prove your point as well?

Spoiler:

This is actually an error on Toyo’s part. The god forms are not on the same Super Saiyan branch as the golden Super Saiyan forms. Toriyama more or less confirmed this when he called Super Saiyan 2 and 3 just extentions of Super Saiyan, while Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is a mixed of Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan. So Goku should have went Blue, Super Saiyan God, and then base form.

[Koitsukai]

Third, Super Saiyan God is the next step after Super Saiyan 3 in the evolutionary line, followed by Super Saiyan Blue (or Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan...). This has become clear in the manga by Goku demonstrating it twice, against Future Trunks and Toppo. Ultra Instinct is not lumped together with Saiyan forms. Goku doesn’t go Ultra Instinct after he becomes a Super Saiyan. Has anyone seen it?

Yeah, doesn't this panel prove your point as well?

Spoiler:

This is actually an error on Toyo’s part. The god forms are not on the same Super Saiyan branch as the golden Super Saiyan forms. Toriyama more or less confirmed this when he called Super Saiyan 2 and 3 just extentions of Super Saiyan, while Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is a mixed of Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan. So Goku should have went Blue, Super Saiyan God, and then base form.

Isn't the manga corrected by Toriyama? seems like he didn't see an error here, if it ended up being published.

[Hugo Boss]

This is actually an error on Toyo’s part. The god forms are not on the same Super Saiyan branch as the golden Super Saiyan forms. Toriyama more or less confirmed this when he called Super Saiyan 2 and 3 just extentions of Super Saiyan, while Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is a mixed of Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan. So Goku should have went Blue, Super Saiyan God, and then base form.

Can you back this claim up? It’s seems weird that Toyotaro has been repeating this mistake (this is the third time) after we just got confirmation that Toriyama actively oversees the storyboard conception.

Also, chapter 58 makes clear that Goku has to revert to normal whenever he wants to switch between Super Saiyan Blue and Ultra Instinct. He has no problem with upgrading to Super Saiyan God while using Super Saiyan 1 or 3.

[HeroR]

Yeah, doesn't this panel prove your point as well?

Spoiler:

This is actually an error on Toyo’s part. The god forms are not on the same Super Saiyan branch as the golden Super Saiyan forms. Toriyama more or less confirmed this when he called Super Saiyan 2 and 3 just extentions of Super Saiyan, while Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is a mixed of Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan. So Goku should have went Blue, Super Saiyan God, and then base form.

Isn't the manga corrected by Toriyama? seems like he didn't see an error here, if it ended up being published.

Toriyama does missed things, like the infamous 'Vegeta never underestimates his opponents'.

This is actually an error on Toyo’s part. The god forms are not on the same Super Saiyan branch as the golden Super Saiyan forms. Toriyama more or less confirmed this when he called Super Saiyan 2 and 3 just extentions of Super Saiyan, while Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is a mixed of Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan. So Goku should have went Blue, Super Saiyan God, and then base form.

Can you back this claim up? It’s seems weird that Toyotaro has been repeating this mistake (this is the third time) after we just got confirmation that Toriyama actively oversees the storyboard conception.

Also, chapter 58 makes clear that Goku has to revert to normal whenever he wants to switch between Super Saiyan Blue and Ultra Instinct. He has no problem with upgrading to Super Saiyan God while using Super Saiyan 1 or 3.

That Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are just extensions? Here: https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... mysteries/

Goku endlessly keeps getting stronger, with Super Saiyan 3 in the manga and Super Saiyan 4 in the anime; does Super Saiyan keep getting limitlessly stronger too? Might we eventually see things such as a Super Saiyan 5…?!

Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.

Granted, Goku has used Super Saiyan 2 and to a far lesser extend Super Saiyan 3, but there are no longer his go to forms and prefer to used Super Saiyan or Blue, which was seen in the Broly movie when Goku and Vegeta used Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan God, and then Blue with Gogeta going Super Saiyan and then Blue. And Goku going from Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan God doesn't mean that there on the same power branch. Using GT, yes I know, Goku was able to go Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan 4, yet Super Saiyan 4 isn't on the same power branch as the golden Super Saiyan forms according to the GT Perfect Files. In fact, it's only called Super Saiyan 4 out of simplicity since it isn't really an upgrade of Super Saiyan 3.

[Koitsukai]

This is actually an error on Toyo’s part. The god forms are not on the same Super Saiyan branch as the golden Super Saiyan forms. Toriyama more or less confirmed this when he called Super Saiyan 2 and 3 just extentions of Super Saiyan, while Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is a mixed of Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan. So Goku should have went Blue, Super Saiyan God, and then base form.

Isn't the manga corrected by Toriyama? seems like he didn't see an error here, if it ended up being published.

Toriyama does missed things, like the infamous 'Vegeta never underestimates his his opponent'.

That comment is open to interpretation, I've read interesting explanations about it in the manga thread. Besides the obvious difference between a passing comment and an actual situation that involves several panels.

My point was that Toyotaro works with Toriyama, side-by-side might be an exaggeration but he does have someone breathing on his neck, so he probably understands how this particular subject works better than any of us, actually I have no doubt about that. At the very least has exclusive access to the creator, so if his work -overseen by the creator- says that you can be demoted from SSG to SS3, then that's it.

A 6-year-old interview can't have more weight than a current manga chapter, if anything that interview was retconned through the manga. Like other things in that interview, ie: not using SS2 or SS2 anymore. I stand by my original post.

[HeroR]

Isn't the manga corrected by Toriyama? seems like he didn't see an error here, if it ended up being published.

Toriyama does missed things, like the infamous 'Vegeta never underestimates his his opponent'.

That comment is open to interpretation, I've read interesting explanations about it in the manga thread. Besides the obvious difference between a passing comment and an actual situation that involves several panels.

My point was that Toyotaro works with Toriyama, side-by-side might be an exaggeration but he does have someone breathing on his neck, so he probably understands how this particular subject works better than any of us, actually I have no doubt about that. At the very least has exclusive access to the creator, so if his work -overseen by the creator- says that you can be demoted from SSG to SS3, then that's it.

A 6-year-old interview can't have more weight than a current manga chapter, if anything that interview was retconned through the manga. Like other things in that interview, ie: not using SS2 or SS2 anymore. I stand by my original post.

Except my source came the horse’s month, while you’re making assumptions.

That and in all the movies directly written by Toriyama, Goku has never used Super Saiyan 2 or 3 again after Battle of Gods. Not even Gogeta.

[The Undying]

This has become clear in the manga by Goku demonstrating it twice, against Future Trunks and Toppo. Ultra Instinct is not lumped together with Saiyan forms.

I'll add that it's not just clear in the manga, but also Super's supplementary materials. Both V Jump's Super Saiyan guide and an anime guide for the Tournament of Power corroborate the idea that they belong to the same line, additionally classifying Super Saiyan God as an actual Super Saiyan form (and, notably, the stage after Super Saiyan 3).

Also, like you said, confirmation that God follows 3 was confirmed and Toriyama-checked on more than three separate occasions in the manga. Chapter 29 in particular has Goku specifically describing Super Saiyan God as the "next level" after Super Saiyan 3 and calling it the "fourth transformation".

Ultra Instinct's name doesn't use "Super Saiyan" as a prefix and always shows Goku reverting to base before transforming, so it's likely a completely separate thing.

[Koitsukai]

Toriyama does missed things, like the infamous 'Vegeta never underestimates his his opponent'.

That comment is open to interpretation, I've read interesting explanations about it in the manga thread. Besides the obvious difference between a passing comment and an actual situation that involves several panels.

My point was that Toyotaro works with Toriyama, side-by-side might be an exaggeration but he does have someone breathing on his neck, so he probably understands how this particular subject works better than any of us, actually I have no doubt about that. At the very least has exclusive access to the creator, so if his work -overseen by the creator- says that you can be demoted from SSG to SS3, then that's it.

A 6-year-old interview can't have more weight than a current manga chapter, if anything that interview was retconned through the manga. Like other things in that interview, ie: not using SS2 or SS2 anymore. I stand by my original post.

Except my source came the horse’s month, while you’re making assumptions.

That and in all the movies directly written by Toriyama, Goku has never used Super Saiyan 2 or 3 again after Battle of Gods. Not even Gogeta.

Toyotaro's source also comes from the horse's mouth. I'll go with Toyo/Toriyama over any fan, he knows the horse better than the fandom.

If that interview was AFTER the chapter in discussion, then I'd give it to you, but it is not.

Edit: I'm not making any assumption, only basing my point on the actual material, you on the other hand are ASSUMING Toyo made a mistake.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

I don't know.. I mean, aren't there enough forms as it is? I don't see any point, MUI should be it for forms unless the writers decide they want to dip their hands into a new super form again. If anything, Goku is one of the last people who needs a super form, he has plenty and so does Vegeta. They should give other characters like the androids, Piccolo or Gohan forms or Goten and Trunks before they get more.

Besides what would it even look like. They've tried literally every color for forms, except purple I guess and grey. We have Rose, Super Saiyan, SSG Blue and Red, MUI. What's next, MUI Super saiyan Rainbow? Good luck designing that without it looking like one of those OC's that I've seen on Deviantart.

Seriously, have you seen the fanmade forms people have made? I can't think of many I'd like to see in an official product because they look strange.

[JewyB]

I dont see why they dont just go with fusion over new forms, so many possibilities and ways to make everyone else relevant, "oh noooo Goku needs telekinesis oh woops he danced in Chiaotzus direction oh look a new marketable character without having to paint Goku a new colour oh nooooo" or something.

[HeroR]

That comment is open to interpretation, I've read interesting explanations about it in the manga thread. Besides the obvious difference between a passing comment and an actual situation that involves several panels.

My point was that Toyotaro works with Toriyama, side-by-side might be an exaggeration but he does have someone breathing on his neck, so he probably understands how this particular subject works better than any of us, actually I have no doubt about that. At the very least has exclusive access to the creator, so if his work -overseen by the creator- says that you can be demoted from SSG to SS3, then that's it.

A 6-year-old interview can't have more weight than a current manga chapter, if anything that interview was retconned through the manga. Like other things in that interview, ie: not using SS2 or SS2 anymore. I stand by my original post.

Except my source came the horse’s month, while you’re making assumptions.

That and in all the movies directly written by Toriyama, Goku has never used Super Saiyan 2 or 3 again after Battle of Gods. Not even Gogeta.

Toyotaro's source also comes from the horse's mouth. I'll go with Toyo/Toriyama over any fan, he knows the horse better than the fandom.

If that interview was AFTER the chapter in discussion, then I'd give it to you, but it is not.

Edit: I'm not making any assumption, only basing my point on the actual material, you on the other hand are ASSUMING Toyo made a mistake.

You’re assuming that Toriyama okay the panel because it was correct. That isn’t coming from the horse’s mouth, that’s making an assumption.

Except not because Toriyama comes out and says he changed his mind or he puts it in material directly written by him, it is an assumption of a retcon. Especially when stuff written directly from Toriyama supports the above statement since in Resurrection ‘F’ and Broly, Goku never used Super Saiyan 2 or 3, and neither did Gogeta.

[theherodjl]

I dont see why they dont just go with fusion over new forms, so many possibilities and ways to make everyone else relevant, "oh noooo Goku needs telekinesis oh woops he danced in Chiaotzus direction oh look a new marketable character without having to paint Goku a new colour oh nooooo" or something.

Considering Goku just held Moro in midair without even touching him, I'd say he's got telekinesis down.

[The Undying]

You’re assuming that Toriyama okay the panel because it was correct.

That's not how this works.

Toriyama "okays" (and even occasionally adds to) every chapter ever drawn/written in the manga. This was stated verbatim in multiple interviews.

Claiming that something within these chapters "slipped by" or somehow wasn't checked by Toriyama is the assumption, and one that runs completely contrary to the information highlighted above. The burden of proof is on the person claiming that Toriyama didn't approve what he's officially said to approve on a monthly basis.

[HeroR]

You’re assuming that Toriyama okay the panel because it was correct.

That's not how this works.

Toriyama "okays" (and even occasionally adds to) every chapter ever drawn/written in the manga. This was stated verbatim in multiple interviews.

Claiming that something within these chapters "slipped by" or somehow wasn't checked by Toriyama is the assumption, and one that runs completely contrary to the information highlighted above. The burden of proof is on the person claiming that Toriyama didn't approve what he's officially said to approve on a monthly basis.

Except we do have an example of something slipping by like Piccolo’s infamous line about Vegeta that shouldn’t have made it past the draft page.

[Hugo Boss]

That Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are just extensions? Here: https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... mysteries/

Not exactly that claim. This:

[...] Goku going from Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan God doesn't mean that there on the same power branch.

I’m not seeing where he says SSGod is not on the same evolution line. After Saganbo, Goku also goes from SS3 to SSGod against Merus. So, there is at least 4 times in the manga.

I'll add that it's not just clear in the manga, but also Super's supplementary materials. Both V Jump's Super Saiyan guide and an anime guide for the Tournament of Power corroborate the idea that they belong to the same line, additionally classifying Super Saiyan God as an actual Super Saiyan form (and, notably, the stage after Super Saiyan 3).

Also, like you said, confirmation that God follows 3 was confirmed and Toriyama-checked on more than three separate occasions in the manga. Chapter 29 in particular has Goku specifically describing Super Saiyan God as the "next level" after Super Saiyan 3 and calling it the "fourth transformation".

Ultra Instinct's name doesn't use "Super Saiyan" as a prefix and always shows Goku reverting to base before transforming, so it's likely a completely separate thing.

Totally overlooked that. Excellent post. So, 3 official sources support the idea. Hmm.

[The Undying]

Except we do have an example of something slipping by like Piccolo’s infamous line about Vegeta that shouldn’t have made it past the draft page.

Except nothing, full stop. We don't have a confirmed example.

Your assumption that Piccolo's line slipped by Toriyama is totally unsubstantiated. Your personal opinion about that line means nothing. It also says nothing about Toriyama's (actually substiantiated) proofreading of every single chapter.

As Koitsukai quite plainly pointed out, there has already been detailed discussion on the supposed inaccuracy of what Piccolo said. It's not universally accepted as some error just because you want it to be. Check the manga thread for reference.

[Koitsukai]

You’re assuming that Toriyama okay the panel because it was correct. That isn’t coming from the horse’s mouth, that’s making an assumption.

Except not because Toriyama comes out and says he changed his mind or he puts it in material directly written by him, it is an assumption of a retcon. Especially when stuff written directly from Toriyama supports the above statement since in Resurrection ‘F’ and Broly, Goku never used Super Saiyan 2 or 3, and neither did Gogeta.

I'm not assuming anything, Toriyama reviewing Toyo's work is a fact, and the treatment of this subject being in the manga is also a fact, so what exactly am I assuming?

You are arguing against the material, you see this right? assuming Toyo must've made a mistake because it contradicts a BoG-related interview, like if the manga was some fanfic with zero involvement from the creator, or that they can't change how things work, ever, because of an old interview, because the show never touched the subject, so it's not even a retcon.
Only Toriyama -now, in 2020- has the authority to say something was a mistake or not, and that scene being in the manga is eloquent enough.

Your only argument seems to be Piccolo's one-liner, that I insist, was explained in this very forum and is nothing more than a personal opinion about another character's way of approaching a fight, it's not even relevant. Hardly comparable to a situation where an attack makes a character's body react in a certain way and it involves drawing like 10 panels.

And I don't understand what you are trying to say with the Broly movie. Goku should've never used SS in the first place, Broly was already making God Vegeta struggle, so him not using SSG from the start already disregards any kind of "logic" behind what form was used or not.