"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Tai Lung]

Honestly with how Toyotaro managed to remember and implement both types of Yardratians into the manga which never showed any, I'd say he is fairly knowledgeable.

Could you explain the difference because I don't know why Toyotaro would be singled out here. The younger staff working on a revival years later are usually nostalgic super fans who grew up with the original which is why these include so much fan service and callbacks. If Toyotaro was replaced, it's unlikely we would get someone who isn't a super fan since I think he was chosen for how close his artstyle was to Toriyama's.

If toyotaro thought like a current fan he would focus on the new events that they have created in super which can be interesting like other universes, planet sadala, the demons that killed the master of jiren or the time traveler from another universe etc

but no ... we have the yadrats I'm sure after 20 years the fans were still interested in them or the surviving soldiers of frieza or the division between ubb and buu (sarcasm)

[Matches Malone]

If toyotaro thought like a current fan he would focus on the new events that they have created in super which can be interesting like other universes, planet sadala, the demons that killed the master of jiren or the time traveler from another universe etc.

The arc was fine until Goku and Vegeta went to train, then things started falling apart.

This is how the arc should've went:

1- Everyone on earth should've been able to kill Moro's men apart from 7-3, that way their screen time wouldn't have been a waste.

2- Vegeta arrives first and his fight plays out the same.

3- Goku and Merus arrive after Vegeta's taken down.

4- Moro 7-3 takes down Omen Goku, at which point Merus gets involved and things play out the same.

5- Goku goes MUI and kills Moro.

Would this have been so hard ?

[Hellspawn28]

I hope Buu saving the day is true because it will make up for Buu not being around in the last torunment arcs. What I like about Super is that it does things different from the other series. In GT and the old DBZ movies, people never like how Goku always saves the day and wins against the main villain. In Super, it's not like that. Freeza is the only villain that was killed off in Super meanwhile Zamasu was erased by Zen-Oh. Beerus, Champa, and Jiren are not villians. With Broly, he was not killed off and was left alone. I hope the next arc, Goku will finally awake up and learn from my mistakes. Not to mention, Goku didn't win the Universe 6 tournament and the TOP.

[JewyB]

If toyotaro thought like a current fan he would focus on the new events that they have created in super which can be interesting like other universes, planet sadala, the demons that killed the master of jiren or the time traveler from another universe etc.

The arc was fine until Goku and Vegeta went to train, then things started falling apart.

This is how the arc should've went:

1- Everyone on earth should've been able to kill Moro's men apart from 7-3, that way their screen time wouldn't have been a waste.

2- Vegeta arrives first and his fight plays out the same.

3- Goku and Merus arrive after Vegeta's taken down.

4- Moro 7-3 takes down Omen Goku, at which point Merus gets involved and things play out the same.

5- Goku goes MUI and kills Moro.

Would this have been so hard ?

I would still have Goku arrive first. Goku arrive, UIO, starts getting beaten, Vegeta IT's in the path of a punch and gets punched in hilarious dragon ball style(how they missed this i do not know), Moro 7-3 takes down Vegeta, Merus gets involved because everything else is hopeless.

I liked the subversion of Goku not being the last to arrive.

[Matches Malone]

I hope Buu saving the day is true because it will make up for Buu not being around in the last torunament arcs.

In GT, people never like how Goku always saves the day and wins against the main villain. In Super, it's not like that.

I hope the next arc, Goku will finally awake up and learn from his mistakes.

Buu definitely has a lot to make up for.

In Super it's the other extreme, where Goku can't win against anyone. There needs to be a balance.

At this point, I think that's very unlikely.

[BWri]

Japan in general don’t give a shit about continuity. That’s mostly a western thing. Which is why no manga, not even something as lore heavy as One Piece that has been running for 20 years, has a lore master. And to be frank, most fans don’t watched Dragon Ball for its story. Which is why Resurrection ‘F’ is rating higher than Battle of Gods on most review sites despite fans here regularly dumping on Resurrection ‘F’ while praising Battle of Gods.

The retelling fixed many issues people had with the story of the movie. The downside was the animation.

It's fine that you think that, but I'm talking about something that can be used to craft a better story. You don't have to live in the East or West to want to do that, and most long-running properties have someone dedicated to continuity. It only provides a net gain. There are no downsides other than money spent. The RoF retelling was not a better story. It was arguably equal, better in some parts, worse in others, and padded for sure. None of the additions really went anywhere. The only net positive was the elaboration of G & V's training. Even that wasn't anything special.

One Piece doesn't necessarily need one of those due to Oda. Oda is incredibly meticulous and no doubt has the majority of his story planned with notes easily accessible when he needs a refresher on something.

And yes, most fans do care about Dragon Ball's story. I'm not sure how you think it's gotten as popular as it has without people caring about the narrative. Sure, it can survive long periods of time on hype alone, which is partly why Super has found success, but that's only achieved on top of the bedrock of narrative which Super at least attempts, but besides that the bedrock was laid ages ago by the original series. Super has mostly coasted off of that.

I'm seeing that RoF has a score of 7.6 compared to BoG at 7.2 but BoG has 24 more reviews and a higher positive score, 74 vs 87 respectively. This is on Metacritic btw. The people who liked BoG liked it more, while the people who liked RoF overall liked it less. Though the people who hated BoG also hated it more than the people who hated RoF. RoF also has more mixed reviews. With scores like that you can conclude that people were more passionate about BoG than RoF at least on that aggregate site.

They're about even on Rotten Tomatoes. 83% tomatometer and 84% audience score for RoF vs 88% tomatometer and 80% audience score for BoG.

[Matches Malone]

Most fans do care about Dragon Ball's story. I'm not sure how you think it's gotten as popular as it has without people caring about the narrative.

The bedrock was laid ages ago by the original series. Super has mostly coasted off of that.

It has become common to just say people don't care about [insert modern DB issue] instead of calling it out on its issues. This is yet another excuse to justify the lazy writing we've been getting in this revival. "People don't care about the story", "People don't care about the characters", "people don't care about consistency", etc... It doesn't end. Let's call it what it is, a good number of the fan base's standards have gotten extremely low following this revival. The average person who knows a thing or two about anime and manga outside of DB definitely cares about the most basic thing you'd expect from the medium.

Let's put it this way, if anyone released an anime/manga with the same quality as Super, but without the name recognition, it wouldn't last half a year.

[Shineman]

And for the coloring pages, aren't they colored by Toyotaro, or done by another colorist just like the Dragon Ball colored manga a few years back? Either way, I'm surprised at the colors for some characters, neutral on it or just indifference.

The color Super volumes are done by uncredited colorist teams (?), just like all of Shueisha's other colored Jump manga lines. (DB, JoJo, One Piece, Naruto, etc.)

Since there are spots that deviate from the artists' own coloring, including in Super, it's unlikely the original artists get much or any say in them (or choose not to have much do to busy schedules; I'm not privy to what the workflow is).

All of their colored manga lines do tend to reference the original artists' coloration style and coloring choices though, even if there are deviations. While Super takes some cues from the anime, there's also a general attempt to privilege consistency with Toyotaro's own colored illustrations and especially volume covers. In general (again, there are exceptions), their reference/privilege order seems to be 1. Toyotaro's cover illustrations, and where no reference in those exists, 2. the anime. (Sometimes Toyotaro himself isn't consistent as well; he has color illustrations with both pink- and tan-armed Piccolo, for example.)

Thanks man! Always coming in with that information. Huh... interesting to see that coloring are done by colorist teams. I always assumed that the creator does that at some point in the future, but based on what provided, it doesn't seems to be the case (similar to the colorist team in the United States for Marvel and DC).

You said that there often inconsistencies with colors for characters in the manga (and I can imagine some in the original manga run). Where there cases of characters having completely different colors between the two mediums (anime and manga)?

====

I think it's best to wait for the chapter to come out and see the full context of that scene. That way, we have a more accurate depiction of what actually transpired, then legit out your full complaints. Who knows, maybe the moment Moro eats the Senzu, Goku immediately bodies him to the point that he can no longer move and that's that?

Although Super manga can often drop the ball several times during its run, I find the idea that not liking several ideas suddenly means the writers are loons, the creator lost it and anyone who supported needs to be fired over it quite an overreaction. Reminds me of the supposed outrage during One Punch Man, Murata's iteration, because their expectations wasn't meet.

You can dislike ideas, concepts and then some provided by the writers, of course. I just find it quite strange, if not downright, crazy, to suggest someone needs to be fired over them.

[Tai Lung]

I hope Buu saving the day is true because it will make up for Buu not being around in the last torunament arcs.

In GT, people never like how Goku always saves the day and wins against the main villain. In Super, it's not like that.

I hope the next arc, Goku will finally awake up and learn from his mistakes.

Buu definitely has a lot to make up for.

In Super it's the other extreme, where Goku can't win against anyone. There needs to be a balance.

At this point, I think that's very unlikely.

the victory against jiren was clean for me ...
in the anime goku defeat him with UI ... in the battle and his fight of ideals he just can't get him off the platform ...
However, it could be said that Frieza and Goku together managed to beat him in the end by taking Jiren off the platform.
Winning the tournament only means that someone on the team remains standing and not because they have defeated the enemy because android 17 could never fight jiren while healthy ... and in general goku had a greater number of eliminations kefla, jiren, trio of dangers , team Universe 2 etc

in the manga only against hit technically in a somewhat limited fight

[HeroR]

Japan in general don’t give a shit about continuity. That’s mostly a western thing. Which is why no manga, not even something as lore heavy as One Piece that has been running for 20 years, has a lore master. And to be frank, most fans don’t watched Dragon Ball for its story. Which is why Resurrection ‘F’ is rating higher than Battle of Gods on most review sites despite fans here regularly dumping on Resurrection ‘F’ while praising Battle of Gods.

The retelling fixed many issues people had with the story of the movie. The downside was the animation.

It's fine that you think that, but I'm talking about something that can be used to craft a better story. You don't have to live in the East or West to want to do that, and most long-running properties have someone dedicated to continuity. It only provides a net gain. There are no downsides other than money spent. The RoF retelling was not a better story. It was arguably equal, better in some parts, worse in others, and padded for sure. None of the additions really went anywhere. The only net positive was the elaboration of G & V's training. Even that wasn't anything special.

One Piece doesn't necessarily need one of those due to Oda. Oda is incredibly meticulous and no doubt has the majority of his story planned with notes easily accessible when he needs a refresher on something.

And yes, most fans do care about Dragon Ball's story. I'm not sure how you think it's gotten as popular as it has without people caring about the narrative. Sure, it can survive long periods of time on hype alone, which is partly why Super has found success, but that's only achieved on top of the bedrock of narrative which Super at least attempts, but besides that the bedrock was laid ages ago by the original series. Super has mostly coasted off of that.

I'm seeing that RoF has a score of 7.6 compared to BoG at 7.2 but BoG has 24 more reviews and a higher positive score, 74 vs 87 respectively. This is on Metacritic btw. The people who liked BoG liked it more, while the people who liked RoF overall liked it less. Though the people who hated BoG also hated it more than the people who hated RoF. RoF also has more mixed reviews. With scores like that you can conclude that people were more passionate about BoG than RoF at least on that aggregate site.

They're about even on Rotten Tomatoes. 83% tomatometer and 84% audience score for RoF vs 88% tomatometer and 80% audience score for BoG.

it was a better story for one, we actually saw Goku and Vegeta training with Whis in more detail and how it happened. Goku getting down by a laser was changed after people hated how it was done in the movie. Freeza and his men were shown as more as a threat, another major complaint about the movie. We the Earth blew up, we saw everyone mourn their families, not just Bulma. The retelling of Resurrection ‘F’ was padded when people thought the retelling could have used more detail like showing Freeza’s training.

Even excluding One Piece: HxH, Jo Jo, Berserk, all long running series with no lore master. They don’t care enough about that kind of stuff in Japan.

Most fans on here care. Not the majority. If that was the case, original Dragon Ball would be far more popularity than Z since Dragon Ball told a far better story.

On average, yes Resurrection ‘F’ was seen as better because it addressed a lot of issues people had with Battle of Gods. Namely, people who didn’t like Battle of Gods thought it was boring and the fights with too short.

[Matches Malone]

the victory against jiren was clean for me ...
in the anime goku defeat him with UI ... in the battle and his fight of ideals he just can't get him off the platform ...

I have no problem with the way Jiren was taken down, but it would've helped if Goku had secured a major victory in a previous arc. Jiren was the 5th main antagonist in a row who Goku couldn't beat on his own, Moro is now the 7th. I have no issue with Goku losing fights, in fact I welcome it, as it's one of the things that made the original manga interesting. The problem is that it's unbalanced. In the manga, Goku's defeats were followed up be victories, same goes for everyone else. No one stayed at the top or bottom for too long. In GT, you had Goku winning everything while the others lost at everything, while in modern DB it's the opposite. There needs to be a balance of victories and defeats to give them weight, otherwise fans will starts getting annoyed, as we're currently seeing.

[HeroR]

Most fans do care about Dragon Ball's story. I'm not sure how you think it's gotten as popular as it has without people caring about the narrative.

The bedrock was laid ages ago by the original series. Super has mostly coasted off of that.

It has become common to just say people don't care about [insert modern DB issue] instead of calling it out on its issues. This is yet another excuse to justify the lazy writing we've been getting in this revival. "People don't care about the story", "People don't care about the characters", "people don't care about consistency", etc... It doesn't end. Let's call it what it is, a good number of the fan base's standards have gotten extremely low following this revival. The average person who knows a thing or two about anime and manga outside of DB definitely cares about the most basic thing you'd expect from the medium.

Let's put it this way, if anyone released an anime/manga with the same quality as Super, but without the name recognition, it wouldn't last half a year.

That is lot of bulk. When you used that logic, Dragon Ball GT and Evolution would have sold gangbusters since it’s all Dragon Ball. Same with Dragon Ball Kai which was considered a failure in Japan.

The whole post reeks of ‘everyone must have poor standards because this product sucks, but no one but me can see it’.

The fact is, the average Dragon Ball fan really don’t care about story. If they did, Broly wouldn’t have been so stupidly popular worldwide and original Dragon Ball would be way more popula. Most watch Dragon Ball to see musclier men beat the shit out of each other.

[HeroR]

Double post.

[Matches Malone]

When you used that logic, Dragon Ball GT and Evolution would have sold gangbusters since it’s all Dragon Ball.

Same with Dragon Ball Kai which was considered a failure in Japan.

The whole post reeks of ‘everyone must have poor standards because this product sucks, but no one but me can see it’.

Most watch Dragon Ball to see musclier men beat the shit out of each other.

GT wasn't intended to be long from its conception, at least based on interviews with the staff. It's also worth mentioning that standards change over the years, so what was or wasn't accepted can change. When I say low standards, I don't mean Evolution kind of low.

It was a failure because the merchandise wasn't selling, the show itself was always in the top 10 most viewed.

Based on the reactions to the latest drafts, I don't think I'll be in the minority for much longer. I honestly can't remember when was the last time the majority of the fan base got this up in arms. Super's 5th episode back in 2015 ? You can only get away with brand recognition for so long before even the most die hard loyal fans start noticing the quality just isn't there.

I won't deny that DB is watched for its action, but to say people outright don't care about story, characters, consistency, etc. is just false. This is, IMO, just an excuse to look past Super's flaws instead of calling it out on them.

[Kinokima]

If toyotaro thought like a current fan he would focus on the new events that they have created in super which can be interesting like other universes, planet sadala, the demons that killed the master of jiren or the time traveler from another universe etc.

The arc was fine until Goku and Vegeta went to train, then things started falling apart.

This is how the arc should've went:

1- Everyone on earth should've been able to kill Moro's men apart from 7-3, that way their screen time wouldn't have been a waste.

2- Vegeta arrives first and his fight plays out the same.

3- Goku and Merus arrive after Vegeta's taken down.

4- Moro 7-3 takes down Omen Goku, at which point Merus gets involved and things play out the same.

5- Goku goes MUI and kills Moro.

Would this have been so hard ?

No I wouldn’t have liked Vegeta’s role being wasted

They could have let Vegeta help Goku without letting Goku look bad


For the record I don’t think Goku needs a solo victory. He’s had some throughout the franchise (and tons of memorable moments ) that’s not the issue. The issue is making Goku make a dumb stereotypical bad mistake for a “twist” a twist we all saw coming. I don’t think Goku needs to defeat a villain on his own but I don’t want him to be written to look bad that’s the problem here.

[HeroR]

When you used that logic, Dragon Ball GT and Evolution would have sold gangbusters since it’s all Dragon Ball.

Same with Dragon Ball Kai which was considered a failure in Japan.

The whole post reeks of ‘everyone must have poor standards because this product sucks, but no one but me can see it’.

Most watch Dragon Ball to see musclier men beat the shit out of each other.

GT wasn't intended to be long from its conception, at least based on interviews with the staff. When I say low standards, I don't mean Evolution kind of low.

It was a failure because the merchandise wasn't selling, the show itself was always in the top 10 most viewed.

Based on the reactions to the latest drafts, I don't think I'll be in the minority for much longer. I honestly can't remember when was the last time the majority of the fan base got this up in arms. Super's 5th episode back in 2015 ? You can only get away with brand recognition for so long before even the most die hard loyal fans start noticing the quality just isn't there.

I won't deny that DB is watched for its action, but to say people outright don't care about story, characters, consistency, etc. is just false. This is, IMO, just an excuse to look past Super's flaws instead of calling it out on them.

It was. GT didn’t last long because it wasn’t popular despite it having Dragon Ball’s name on it. It isn’t even popular in Mexico where Dragon Ball is worship along with Sailor Moon. So the idea anything with Dragon Ball’s name on it sells is a fallacy.

Which is my point. Kai is literally Z, but no one cared about it enough to buy toys or be seriously invested in Dragon Ball. That and in Latin-America, Kai is forever tainted because it replaced all the beloved voice actors from Z.

It is a minority for one reason alone, most Dragon Ball fans don’t read the manga. A lot don’t even know Super has a manga. Only the hardcore like us follows it.If you talk to a casual Dragon Ball fan, I’m willing to bet money that most wouldn’t know who Moro is. For example, I lurk FighterZ, Dokkan, and Legends forums and every time the Moro arc is brought up, the most common response is ‘what’s that’. Also not helping that almost all merch for Super is based on the anime. Not even freaking Heroes really used manga stuff despite low hanging fruit like Super Saiyan Black.

It isn’t an excuse so much the way Dragon Ball is. If most fans cared about story, characters, consistency, etc so much, why don’t more people watched original Dragon Ball or read the original manga for that matter. Outside of Namek and parts of the Saiyan Saga, Z’s story is inferior to Dragon Ball. Same with the character writing outside of Gohan, Piccolo, Vegeta, and Mr. Satan. And I can’t stress this enough, one of Dragon Ball’s most beloved characters is OG Broly who has the personality of cardboard and it isn’t his backstory people like about him since most agree that’s the worst aspect of his character.

[Skar]

That is lot of bulk. When you used that logic, Dragon Ball GT and Evolution would have sold gangbusters since it’s all Dragon Ball. Same with Dragon Ball Kai which was considered a failure in Japan.

I think it goes without saying that Toriyama being involved is going to attract more attention. Toei wasn't willing to continue the series until he decided to work on it again despite DB being in their top 3 highest earning franchises since the early 2000's (that's as far back as their financial reports go).

To be fair, I think he was talking production value. A brand new series trying to make a name for itself probably wouldn't be as rushed and have as little pre-production time as DBS. The ones that do usually don't last long or rank among great or even above average anime. Most of Toei's other recent anime didn't suffer as badly from what I understand.

[The Undying]

Let me talk about Star Wars for a second.

Star Wars's fanbase is probably the worst fanbase in film history, complete with unbelievably toxic behavior, some of the shittiest ideas about where George Lucas should have taken the series, and, even if they were fully knowledgeable about the lore, an often rampant failure to understand his intended themes and messages at every possible turn.

The original six SW movies were great despite those people, not because of them. We already saw what happens when the writing attempts to cater to fans - virtually nobody was happy with that result.

Rest assured, I don't give one iota of a shit about what Dragon Ball's community thinks. Someone who has "constant engagement" with them should never be involved with the franchise in any official capacity.

Write what you want, regardless of controversy. The original manga was certainly no stranger to it.

[Dbzfan94]

"Man, I'm so glad you guys were here, we would have been done for!" "Yes, Goku, now where are my NOODLES?!" haha, everyone laughs, Vegeta and Piccolo scowl, and then off we go into the next arc. Jesus... "

This is exactly what's going to happen, the only difference maybe being the kind of food Beerus asks for. If you're interested in good writing, you can either re-watch the original material from the 80s-90s or watch/read other anime and manga, because quality writing at this point is something DB isn't interested in.

And yet somehow people will eat it up like is so amazing, and it’ll end up the same exact way as this arc has.

[Shineman]

Let me talk about Star Wars for a second.

Star Wars's fanbase is probably the worst fanbase in film history, complete with unbelievably toxic behavior, some of the shittiest ideas about where George Lucas should have taken the series, and, even if they were fully knowledgeable about the lore, an often rampant failure to understand his intended themes and messages at every possible turn.

The original six SW movies were great despite those people, not because of them. We already saw what happens when the writing attempts to cater to fans - virtually nobody was happy with that result.

Rest assured, I don't give one iota of a shit about what Dragon Ball's community thinks. Someone who has "constant engagement" with them should never be involved with the franchise in any official capacity.

Write what you want, regardless of controversy. The original manga was certainly no stranger to it.

Hey man, I can think there are several fanbases that can run Star Wars fanbase for their money on the worst!

Jokes aside, I agreed with your sentiment! It reminds me of several fans absolutely dropping loads in their knickers when Ian managed to cut through the inside of the barrier created by Tatsumaki. Throwing Murata under the bus, calling the illustrator an hack, downright crazy, and doing things without consulting with ONE (despite the panels clearly showing that it did took effort, and other scenes having context behind such), and proposed their own ideas that clearly better. Those conversations disappeared when another chapter details slightly on Tatsumaki's barrier. Almost like the creators and the writers know their characters and concepts a lot better than some fans. Perhaps, we should trust the writers who probably have a lot more access to the material than anyone here.

As I said before, you can dislike something, but to start pulling ideas, claim to be better and then some, just seem outright silly. I'm not a particular fan of downgrading the writer/creator's ideas over dislike. It kind on borders on "let me take this artist's drawing, and make it better" type of thing, you know?