"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Hellspawn28]

that was said by frieza final form (not golden) which is just a reference to namek however in the series they remained constant in their statements





anyway it's strange if jiren surpasses the gods .... merus and moro should be able to do it

I always feel like those lines are figure of speech and are not meant to be taken seriously. No different from someone saying "I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse". I'm not saying that Kefla is not bluffing, but I don't think Beerus can destroy more than one universe. Zeno is the only one in the series with multiverse powers at the moment.

[SupremeKai25]

The way I see it is this:

Zeno/Grand Priest (?)/Infinite Zamasu - Multiversal
Angels/GoDs/GoD-tier fighters (MUI Goku, Jiren, Vegito, Gogeta, Kefla, Broly, Angel Moro, Fused Zamasu, etc.) - Universal
Below GoD tier but still relevant (so like Goku Black, Immortal Zamasu, Hit, Caulifla, Kale, etc. all these people) - Galaxy

I don't know why Toyotaro insists that these top tier people are only galaxy level, regardless I refuse to believe Moro wouldn't have enough power to obliterate the entire universe, when in BoG people were already shaking the universe just by trading fists.

[JewyB]

Maybe its just like when a really big person says "i'm gonna break your legs" when realistically they could break my all of me but it sells the idea enough?

[Tai Lung]

that was said by frieza final form (not golden) which is just a reference to namek however in the series they remained constant in their statements





anyway it's strange if jiren surpasses the gods .... merus and moro should be able to do it

I always feel like those lines are figure of speech and are not meant to be taken seriously. No different from someone saying "I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse". I'm not saying that Kefla is not bluffing, but I don't think Beerus can destroy more than one universe. Zeno is the only one in the series with multiverse powers at the moment.

although Vados mentions that beerus and champa together are capable of destroying both universes and not beerus alone but ok

[Mister_Popo]

My thoughts on this chapter ...

Pros

- Great art and battle scenes. Notably those panels when Goku and Moro were flying towards each other and hitting fists were simply stunning.

- Cool additional aspect of UI: the body grows sturdier as necessary.
Autonomous reflexes and increased strength we already knew of.
But it somehow makes sense it has other influences on the body of the martial artist as well.

- Excellent polarisation between the characters of Goku and Moro.
Goku is a man of honour, not always smart, but he wants to win in the most fair possible way his battles. Moro on the other just wants to win, he doesn't care about honour, and is more strategic than Goku (altough Goku showed some nice strategy as well this chapter).
This in line with both Moros and Gokus character.
Goku doesn't kill unless utterly needed, and even gives a final chance to redemption to sadistic villains. He has always been this way. And knowing he has become complete as a martial artist through MUI, it fits he is on the same mental plane as well.

Goku btw has become quite a universal character with typical traits. I doubt he will evolve much within the short or even longer term. The franchise wants to keep him recognizable for fans over the world. If you want serious character growth and evolution, you have to read other series i'm afraid.
Most what we can expect as a DB-fan at this point is that he is portrayed consistently like he is. I do have the impression Toyotaro understands Gokus dynamics quite well.

- I loved Gokus little trick of luring Moro into using UI, as he knew how much strain the form requires on the body when one is not used to it.

- I liked the concept of UI Moro combining UI with his magic (two Moros).
Moro just using UI would have been kinda boring.

- Moro becoming one with the earth as a final strategy surely has a surprise element to it, but at the same time it does make sense as a final 'option' for him to win the battle. He is a strategic villain and he knows how precious the earth and its inhabitants are to Goku. Probably Moro has prepared this strategy in advance, as a final attempt to settle the score if everything else fales, just like he had 'prepared' 7-3 for his absorption if things went wrong.

Cons

- Merus gets surprised by Moro into stealing his abilities.
That shouldn't normally be possible, as Merus has MUI and Moro has not.
Merus shouldn't be caught off guard by that attack.

- Copying and absorbing are different abilities.
Moro normally only changes chape only when he absorbs, not when he copies.

Moro becoming more white and angel-like feels just like transforming because of the show-aspect, rather then because of it truely makes sense. Not that it never has happened before in DB of course

- Goku should have finished Moro right after he defeated him in angelform.
He had given Moro his chance to redeem, but it obviously didn't work.
He didn't have to wait for Whis order, but should have nuked him right away before he could merge with the earth.
It's very classic DB things are being overstretched.

- The chapter is again very Goku-centered. During the first and middle part of the arc we saw more of the other fighters. I can somehow understand because he is the main character and didn't appear that much in the first and middle part, but it would be nice for Vegeta, Dai Kaioshin (or even Beerus, now his precious food earth has become one big Moro-candy?) to step in again.

Conclusion

I do find the dramaqueening in advance somehow exaggerated.
This felt like an above average chapter, i have seen better this arc, but i have seen a lot worse as well.
Best of all the Goku vs Moro-chapters: 7,5 / 10.

It however feels time the arc finally comes to a close.
It has been stretched to its absolute maximum.

[goku the krump dancer]

Spoiler:

If someone says "Toyotaro has no idea how to write Goku/Dragon Ball", they're really revealing that they don't understand Goku/Dragon Ball. I don't have it in me to once again explain the main character to "hardcore" fans, but please refer to this very helpful thread by Cipher, or any of the many wonderful Toriyama comments in the Kanzenshuu Translations section.

Complaining about retread is another issue, and while it's my main issue with this arc, I'll push back on it regarding Goku offering Moro a Senzu compared to Cell. Goku gave Cell a Senzu to (1) make it a fair fight and (2) increase the changes of drawing out Gohan's latent power. Goku gave Moro a Senzu as a test. There was never a chance that Moro could go free and train (although Goku admittedly would like that), but Goku wanted to give Moro a chance to return to jail with dignity. We knew that would never happen, but that's Goku, even when (or especially because) we the audience and every other character on the page disagrees with him.

I thought Chapter 64: Son Goku, Galactic Patrolman vs Chapter 65: Son Goku, Earthling was a neat juxtaposition that really drives Goku's characterization home.

Interesting new detail regarding MnG: "When Migatte no Gokui is honed to this extent, the body will automatically grow sturdier as necessary." This seems to tie in to Omen in the ToP. When Goku wasn't fast enough to dodge Jiren's attacks outright, his body allowed hits to non-lethal areas. This feels like a progression of that. When Moro's body parts grow as a result of failing to maintain Merus' power, it seems like this feature is the specific trigger (as the areas that grow are the areas Goku succeeds in hitting). Moro's failure to once again skewer an opponent due to this attribute is very satisfying karma.

Another MnG detail is the seeming confirmation of a fan theory: Angels are constantly in a state of MnG. That's what Moro's white hair seems to imply, anyway. I will also say that it's cool that they actually went through with utilizing that severed hand, and I like the deformity parallel to Saganbo.

One more thing on MnG: Goku is now able to phase in and out of it without issue. At this point, it seems as though he has truly mastered it, so if he doesn't use it moving forward, there should be a good reason (not just because he hasn't really completed perfected mastered it 100%).

Something I missed on my first read through: Moro grabs the Senzu bag from Goku and crushes it. I love the two panels showing Goku remaining calm that follow.

The MnG vs MnG skirmish that follows has some decent scale. I maintain what I said last chapter about how this arc has given us the most "true" or "pure" showcase of MnG. Whis acting stern for once was a surprise. Planet Moro is the exact sort of whacky stuff I want from this series.

Seems like Vegeta, or perhaps the Dai Kaioshin, might be able to help defeat Planet Moro. If Earth/Moro must explode, my wildcard prediction is that Goku will demonstrate mastery of the technique he used in BoG to negate Beerus' Earth-ending attack. It didn't happen in the manga (he negated the attack with a Kamehameha, or at least the pose), but neither did the Monaka foreshadowing (which was later added as a between-chapters tankobon interstitial).

I agree with all of this.. Initially I took the bate and was a bit concerned about the Senzu Bean spoiler myself but it was mostly out of curiosity, My exact words were "What was Toyo trying to prove?" and now in context I get it.

2 points i'd like to make to help illustrate Goku's character:

1. He's an absolute alpha male when it comes to battle and combat. when he face's his oppenents he lets them power up because he likes to establish absolute dominace, he enjoys a great fight but at the end of the day he want's his beaten oppenents to know that they BOTH went all out Goku still managed to come out on top. He then goes "Good Game" in hopes of walking off, getting better and doing it all over again. Goku LOVES the art of Combat, not just because he's a saiyan because he's passionate about it.

2. He NEVER liked killing his enemies, unless he had absolutely no choice, he wouldn't do it. Agent Black, King Piccolo, Freeza and Boo all gave Goku no other choice but to end their lives. Look at Goku's face after he delivers the final blow to Freeza on Namek, it's guilt written all over it despite witnessing how shitty of a person Freeza was. He also made the off hand remark that he'd hope Boo came back to life as good person so he can enjoy his high level combat with out the mental pressure of potentially having to kill him again and while he never managed to give Agent Black or Daimaoh a complement, I'm sure if he didn't have too, he wouldnt have dispatched them. Part of that is what makes him a hero in a traditional sense despite not claiming to be one.

He had already beaten Moro at his best (before the Angel boost), he offered the Senzu, knowing Moro would go back on his word, he just wanted to feel less guilty about ending his life and while YES it was a gamble because it always is, at the point both he and Moro thought all of his options where exhausted (Moro's) turns out not to be the case ultimately but that's who Goku is, that's how he operates. For Goku it's the Sport of Combat over the emotional conflict of the battle itself and thats what makes him who he is, a fucking KICK ASS character.

[Cipher]

But couldn’t that have been written into the plot without the Senzu. Moro was badly hurt after his first scuffle with Goku but he wasn’t at death’s door. I still don’t see narratively speaking why the Senzu itself was needed.

Moro could have gone to prison and not died without the Senzu

Goku isn’t interested in sparing Moro if he can’t pass this test though. The Senzu allows him to measure Moro’s sincerity. Will he agree to go if he’s in a state where he thinks he could still conceivably fight back?

Goku’s hoping for a “yes,” but is quite clear about what will happen if it doesn’t come (death, for Moro).

[Tai Lung]

But couldn’t that have been written into the plot without the Senzu. Moro was badly hurt after his first scuffle with Goku but he wasn’t at death’s door. I still don’t see narratively speaking why the Senzu itself was needed.

Moro could have gone to prison and not died without the Senzu

Goku isn’t interested in sparing Moro if he can’t pass this test though. The Senzu allows him to measure Moro’s sincerity. Will he agree to go if he’s in a state where he thinks he could still conceivably fight back?

Goku’s hoping for a “yes,” but is quite clear about what will happen if it doesn’t come (death, for Moro).

Nor does it seem like a "reasonable" decision to me, although some ignore it, goku did not forgive vegeta and frieza because he thought they could redeem themselves, he knew that they would not do it and that he was wrong ... but he did it out of fear ... afraid of running out worthy opponents to fight .. that's consistent until fnf but ... currently doesn't make sense
goku still has jiren, kefla, broly, beerus, whis etc and others that he has not overcome yet, what difference does it make to let it go, moro without his magic is really not strong

[LightBing]

Just read the chapter. It's preposterous how much of a copy of the Cell Arc this is.

I'm disappointed and honestly this doesn't feel like Toyotarõ. Sure the dude copied a bunch of panels from the manga, some plot was reminiscent but nothing like this. In a few pages he summarized the latter bit of the Cell Games.

Like or dislike Toyotarõ he always had originality in this manga, stuff like Trunks plot during the Zamasu Arc or Muten Roshi's inferior Ultra Instinct.

This is just speculation but I think the corporate hand is at work. The way this arc has extended and restarted a few times, how plot points were dropped, most significantly Mr. Boo.

This feels like a Toei movie right now. I'll keep reading the action is improving and it's entertaining, otherwise like the anime the manga is creatively bankrupt.

[xm0c]

2. He NEVER liked killing his enemies, unless he had absolutely no choice, he wouldn't do it. Agent Black, King Piccolo, Freeza and Boo all gave Goku no other choice but to end their lives. Look at Goku's face after he delivers the final blow to Freeza on Namek, it's guilt written all over it despite witnessing how shitty of a person Freeza was. He also made the off hand remark that he'd hope Boo came back to life as good person so he can enjoy his high level combat with out the mental pressure of potentially having to kill him again and while he never managed to give Agent Black or Daimaoh a complement, I'm sure if he didn't have too, he wouldnt have dispatched them. Part of that is what makes him a hero in a traditional sense despite not claiming to be one.

Sorry, but how did Agent Black leave him no choice? He was literally running for his life when Goku killed him. I mean yeah he did launch a rocket at him, but what Black did wasn't all that different from what the Pilaf gang did to Goku later in the arc, and they were left just comically beaten up.

Also, what about all those Red Ribbon soldiers? Barely any of them put up a fight, yet Goku had no problem killing them. Or what about Tambourine, Drum, Yakon? I don't think any of those guys got any mercy like Moro did, though Tambourine can be justified cause he did kill Goku's best friend.

[goku the krump dancer]

Spoiler:

2. He NEVER liked killing his enemies, unless he had absolutely no choice, he wouldn't do it. Agent Black, King Piccolo, Freeza and Boo all gave Goku no other choice but to end their lives. Look at Goku's face after he delivers the final blow to Freeza on Namek, it's guilt written all over it despite witnessing how shitty of a person Freeza was. He also made the off hand remark that he'd hope Boo came back to life as good person so he can enjoy his high level combat with out the mental pressure of potentially having to kill him again and while he never managed to give Agent Black or Daimaoh a complement, I'm sure if he didn't have too, he wouldnt have dispatched them. Part of that is what makes him a hero in a traditional sense despite not claiming to be one.

Sorry, but how did Agent Black leave him no choice? He was literally running for his life when Goku killed him. I mean yeah he did launch a rocket at him, but what Black did wasn't all that different from what the Pilaf gang did to Goku later in the arc, and they were left just comically beaten up.

Also, what about all those Red Ribbon soldiers? Barely any of them put up a fight, yet Goku had no problem killing them. Or what about Tambourine, Drum, Yakon? I don't think any of those guys got any mercy like Moro did, though Tambourine can be justified cause he did kill Goku's best friend.

It can be argued that as kid, Goku was more reckless with how he handled things but even still, most of the RRA members he dispatched were just hit really hard, not hit with death blows, save for the ones that he blew up in tanks but I mean those guys were shooting rockets at him for Pete's sake, its a do or die situation. Any major Red Ribbon leader (Save for Agent Black) that was killed, wasn't murdered by Goku. General White, Blue and Commander Red were all taken out by other individuals.

Moving on to his adult life he literally made an attempt to spare everyone he faced. Raditz kidnapped Gohan, Goku tried to spare him, Nappa killed four of his friends, Goku tried to spare him, Vegeta did get spared, the Ginyu's were murdered by Vegeta and the list goes on.
Yakon was another do or die situation, even if he did spare him, he knew the poor guy was just gonna get offed by Bobidi anyway so chances are he just saved him some embarrassment sorta.

EDIT: Also this is the first time the Copy technique resulted in actual "Power Boost" Right? I mean, guest it makes sense seeing as though Ultra Instinct is a "transformation".

[Ronin]

This arc has its problems and isn't perfect but I'm enjoying all the different unexpected plot twists. This is one of the things I love about Dragon Ball and I hope it keeps going a little more. Please don't let Moro get defeated in the next chapter. I want things to keep spiraling out of control like this for a couple more chapters and hopefully it'll lead to an epic ending.

I know Moro has magic abilities and all but I didn't know he can apparently just merge his body with anything he pleases. He basically just fused with the Earth. If he could do that, what's the point of the copy technique? Maybe he likes keeping his own body or doesn't wanna get rid of other bodies? If he had this ability all along, what else could he've done?

And just for fun, here's a crappy ending scenario I imagined:

Spoiler:

Goku continues fighting Planet Moro and Moro, realizing he can't win, decides to eat Goku instead, getting his power. His body can't handle the extra power and he blows up killing Goku but his soul survives in a large chunk of Earth that he molds into a humanoid shape. He's weaker but still stronger than everyone else. Everyone freaks out for a minute then Goten, Trunks and Gohan show up saying they've been training in the Room of Spirit and Time incase things got awry with Goku and Vegeta. Goten and Trunks fuse into Gotenks and surprises everyone (except Gohan) that he can also do Ultra Instinct, but only as Gotenks. Maybe their fused selves can somehow manage to obtain it sooner and also makes them twice as strong. (I mean he managed to make an interdimensional portal after 30 minutes of screaming one time, so it's not that crazy.) But the catch is that it shortens their fusion time by half. They don't manage beat him in time, but they do weaken him enough for Gohan to fight him who also surprises everyone that he can do Super Saiyan God or Blue or something. He can't quite beat him alone and maybe Goten, Trunks and Vegeta jump in and helps him beat him. Not sure about the details on how that happens, but ehh.

Hopefully the real ending would be better than that, but I enjoyed thinking that up enough to wanna share it.

[Cipher]

- Copying and absorbing are different abilities.
Moro normally only changes chape only when he absorbs, not when he copies.

Moro becoming more white and angel-like feels just like transforming because of the show-aspect, rather then because of it truely makes sense. Not that it never has happened before in DB of course

I thought the implication was that his hair lightened because he was using UI—meaning that Goku’s hair change is an innate feature of the technique rather than some odd Saiyan transformation.

[theherodjl]

Does anyone else find it just stupid that Moro's former hand was conveniently sitting on a tiny piece of land surrounded by lava??? As though the universe knew that it was a crucial plot device in allowing Moro to have his umpteenth comeback & power up?
Boo's sliced-off tentacle at least was set up to be intentional by Vegetto so that Boo might try to absorb him. This crap with the the hand though, just puts me off.

[Dragon Wukong]

- Copying and absorbing are different abilities.
Moro normally only changes chape only when he absorbs, not when he copies.

Moro becoming more white and angel-like feels just like transforming because of the show-aspect, rather then because of it truely makes sense. Not that it never has happened before in DB of course

I thought the implication was that his hair lightened because he was using UI—meaning that Goku’s hair change is an innate feature of the technique rather than some odd Saiyan transformation.

Not to mention the recognition of it by it's silver hair during the ToP implies that as well. It's almost assuredly not because Moro copied an angel in particular, but because he has access to Ultra Instinct now.

Wonder what'll happen if Beerus achieves it.

[TobyS]

although Vados mentions that beerus and champa together are capable of destroying both universes and not beerus alone but ok

Does she say this in the manga and the anime?
The more interesting thing to me is this would mean the twin universes are the closest together 'geographically'
or at least by chance 6 and 7 are, otherwise why are they not a threat to all of them.

[TobyS]

Does anyone else find it just stupid that Moro's former hand was conveniently sitting on a tiny piece of land surrounded by lava??? As though the universe knew that it was a crucial plot device in allowing Moro to have his umpteenth comeback & power up?
Boo's sliced-off tentacle at least was set up to be intentional by Vegetto so that Boo might try to absorb him. This crap with the the hand though, just puts me off.

I mean if it did fall in the lava the story would be over and we wouldn't be having this convo.
If it's on a tiny island surrounded by a literal moat of lava that'd be silly but more of the earth is still not lava then is so it's no implausible to me.

It's not right by his feet conveniently, he had to suck it in from far away with his TK, so it feels somewhat 'earned'.

If spirit fission or something else clever ends the threat I'm fine with it. As long as they don't get bailed out by yet another Whis rewind or everyone dies and Namekian/Super DB's restore everything then I'm fine with whatever else.

[eledoremassis02]

Is there a reason the site hasn't updated in regards to the new chapter? I find that interesting. I hope VegettoEX is ok

[theherodjl]

I mean if it did fall in the lava the story would be over and we wouldn't be having this convo.
If it's on a tiny island surrounded by a literal moat of lava that'd be silly but more of the earth is still not lava then is so it's no implausible to me.

It's not right by his feet conveniently, he had to suck it in from far away with his TK, so it feels somewhat 'earned'.

If spirit fission or something else clever ends the threat I'm fine with it. As long as they don't get bailed out by yet another Whis rewind or everyone dies and Namekian/Super DB's restore everything then I'm fine with whatever else.

Its not really that far away, maybe only 20 feet at the most. Its egregious that Goku let him pull it in when it was so close. Guess that Ultra Instinct failed in stopping the villain's plan. There also should be the issue of the air around lava already being burning hot but fate apparently has other plans, enough so that even a discarded limb can withstand the superheated area just fine.
That's Toyo's writing for you.

[TobyS]

I guess his body doesn't react to it because it's not aimed at him. Otherwise he'd be startled by like every bird and bug that flies near him.
It is a danger to him but only in some abstract way, it's not a spider-sense he's got.