How would you rank Dragonball compared to other Shonen?

[Xeno Goku Black]

I just can't understand that. The whole idea makes me uncomfortable.

That's how you're supposed to feel being a normal human being.

[ABED]

I think DB is my favorite, but Yu Yu Hakusho comes a VERY close second. I love the characters and the cast is small enough to all be given focus.

[JulieYBM]

I really can't rank this stuff. My feelings are so fluid.

I just can't understand that. The whole idea makes me uncomfortable.

That's how you're supposed to feel being a normal human being.

Kinks are a normal part of human life, honey. I hope you someday learn to enjoy your sexuality!

[Xeno Goku Black]

Yeah, I doubt I'll enjoy watching women getting raped just like most of the normal human population but you enjoy your "kink".

[Melee_Sovereign]

The show doesn't make a definitive statement on rape and then move on, it just lets the actions linger, repeating trauma over-and-over and driving forward plot and character development.

What exactly do you mean by it doesn't make a definitive statement? How many shows do you know of, make a definitive statement on traumatic events that happen to their characters?

I never got the impression from GoT that I was suppose to get off on a rape scene, or that it's somehow glorified. With the case of Sansa, for instance, the perpetrator was an established villain (Ramsay Bolton) that the audience at this point would have come to hate. As any villain should be. There was no definitive statement when Ramsay emasculated Theon either.

There's no sense that this was DnD trying process their own personal experiences with rape, it just comes across as the callous cashing in on a historically painful subject manner all being controlled by two privileged white guys.

So a writer has to personally go through a particular traumatic event to be allowed to put it in their story? And the bolded is your personal interpretation. I don't think a writer has to go through a particular traumatic event to be allowed to put it in their story.

Either way, I didn't get the impression that DnD were trying to cash in on anything. I simply got the impression that they took an established villain (one of the most vial and barbaric in the series) and unsurprisingly made him do something horrible.

And back to my point on the Medieval setting. So many stories set in this time period have rape scenes, and they're generally only ever meant to further drive the point that it's (accurately) a brutal world. E.g. the anime Berserk, and the show Vikings.

DnD do a really shitting job of doing anything beyond turning womens' historical powerlessness into a regurgitated entrée and then trying to pass it off as Serious Art.

You keep hyperfocusing on women. But again, given the Medieval setting, any character male or female, was a possible victim of some form of brutality. Theon and Varys were emasculated. The 10s of thousands of Unsullied were castrated. Men are typically subjected by oath to take on a dangerous lifetime of war (which likely means they'll die young) sometimes with the oath of never being allowed to have a personal life like having a wife and kids. Melisandre, a woman, basically sexually molested Gendry with leeches. Good people are killed due to being too honorific and morally inflexible (Ned Stark).

The entire point is, it's a dark and brutal world. It's not some sort of cash grab. It's simply the setting of the series.

And frankly, it just plain isn't interesting seeing characters like you tortured for eight seasons and then on top of that receive zero catharsis

Well that's your opinion. And that's fine. But some people like dark stories. Me personally, I tend to gravitate towards darker fiction because I relate to it more. I sometimes have a harder time taking more light-hearted fiction seriously.

[Melee_Sovereign]

Martin told them his overall plan. The execution is what matters, not the plan.

True. I just think that the execution being bad wasn't because GoT went past 6 season. The execution was bad because DnD are bad writers without source material (and or maybe they got greedy and rushed things, because I think they got some sort of Star Wars deal or something).

[ABED]

Martin told them his overall plan. The execution is what matters, not the plan.

True. I just think that the execution being bad wasn't because GoT went past 6 season. The execution was bad because DnD are bad writers without source material (and or maybe they got greedy and rushed things, because I think they got some sort of Star Wars deal or something).

I never said or implied it was bad because it went beyond season 6.

[MasenkoHA]

Martin told them his overall plan. The execution is what matters, not the plan.

True. I just think that the execution being bad wasn't because GoT went past 6 season. The execution was bad because DnD are bad writers without source material (and or maybe they got greedy and rushed things, because I think they got some sort of Star Wars deal or something).

It’s not that GoT went bad for going more than six seasons its just that most shows generally can’t maintain quality after 3-5 seasons and GoT isn’t an exception.

[ABED]

Martin told them his overall plan. The execution is what matters, not the plan.

True. I just think that the execution being bad wasn't because GoT went past 6 season. The execution was bad because DnD are bad writers without source material (and or maybe they got greedy and rushed things, because I think they got some sort of Star Wars deal or something).

It’s not that GoT went bad for going more than six seasons its just that most shows generally can’t maintain quality after 3-5 seasons and GoT isn’t an exception.

That isn't why it went into the crapper. It's issue wasn't going on too long and retreading old stories, it's issue was it didn't feel innevitable but surprising. It felt like writers checking plot points off a list that was set up years prior and feeling like that was an ending. Stories are about catharsis and nothing about that ending was cathartic.

Dragon Ball was different. That was an issue of going on too long and repeating stories, but at least the ending was satisfying. I know I've said stuff to the contrary over the years but opinions change. It works because it sums up what the story is about. I prefer YYH's ending, though. All of the characters reach a satisfying conclusion.

[ChronoTwigger]

Old guy here and I watched probably more shounen than most of you.

You must state you're talking of "battle shounen", a subgenre that imply a plot focus on fights.
It's hard for me to remember all of them, anyway.

How DB compare to others?
DB shine at two moments in his long history. Kid Goku (probably RR arc less interesting) and the Sayan saga.
The first being a combination of light hearted adventures where everything was actually possible: witches, robots, chinese assassins, talking dogs, ancient menaces that lay eggs and flying on a cloud. It was FANTASY as his purest level, combined with struggles and combat. It was a flight of fantasy that uplifted your mood. Toriyama intent was for you to feel happy.

The sayan arc introduced "power level" and for the whole lasting of the arcs there was an incredible tension and geometry. You face opponents with a power level higher than your, how you can survive? And that leaded to PRECISE and SMART sudden twists. The first time you read/watch it is really dragging in.
Beside such moments, the serie was UTTERLY BAD, totally BAD, UNCANNY BAD.
Characters got no motivations, stories where less interesting and tension was gone. It repeated the wrong trope, as probably TOEI and Studio Bird weren't totally aware of the elements that made DragonBall so famous (mind: no web at the time...). Androids, Buu, GT, Super, also some movie... the strenght of DB was the continual plot twist and not such stuff.

Anyway, how DragonBall compare to other battle shounen?
Saint Seiya is WAY more better for his entire lasting. On technical sense and plotwise. Until the franchise opened up and terrible sequels came out, to the point of Kurumada had to redraw first person such sequels! But Saint Seiya doesn't have just 2 moments in the whole serie. It was good since the start to the ending.
Saint Seiya > DragonBall

Hokuto no Ken is more a seinen, not a shounen, and one of the "muscular" genre like BAKI the Grappler - the plot mean nothing, the charm is based on muscular figures. Hokuto no Ken is technically a masterpiece compared to DB, just watch a single movie of HnK and compare it to alll 13 DBZ movies... Well, watch the BAKI chinese tournament and ask yourself why in 2020 DragonBall should look less than this...
Hokuto no Ken < > DragonBall (they doesn't match, but is technically superior)

I find Naruto horrible, REALLY horrible in any sense. Plotwise is atrociously boriing and predictable. DragonBall is better.
DragonBall > Naruto

YuYu Hakusho, HunterxHunter, Shaman King, Samurai Troopers, RuRoni Kenshin... are all secondary products: they make you feel good the moment you watch them (they are made to have such effect after all!), but you forgot them easily. DragonBall was better.
DragonBall > Groups of derivative shounen

OnePiece tried to tell again a flight of fantasy and worked fine, using a pop modern graphic, until it dragged so much that the starting premise fell off and I don't even remember how much people they slapped and WHy they slapped them...
So, to me DragonBall is better: I want for more stories of DB, while to me OnePiece could have ended already.
DragonBall > OnePiece

Kunnikiman is probably better than DragonBall Buu arc and Super to convey a battle shounen feeling paired with comedy. I really enjoy Kunnikiman and how silly the leads are WHILE the story somehow keep up tension. Kunnikiman is EXACTLY what DragonBall Z could have been if they didn't turned to a serious mood.
It's hard to compare them, I think they get on a tie.
DragonBall == Kunnikiman

If One Punch Man is a shounen, is conceptually a masterpiece compared to DragonBall.
OPMan >> DragonBall (but OPMan is a seinen, and so...)

My Hero Academia is a pure joke. Horrible.
DragonBall >> MHA

But the battle shounen that actually killed DragonBall, being better even than DB excellent moments was

DEMONSLAYER

DemonSlayer is probably the better battle shounen (for the reference demographic) ever made.
Is coherent, evolutive in the plot, is tense since the premise, fights are good and tap into the old DBZ geometry system, the most plain scene is drawn better than the better scene of DragonBall.
It take most of Saint Seiya lessons and bost them all a lot.

DemonSlayer >>>>>>>>>>>>> even the best moment of DragonBall.

So, in the end, DragonBall is probably in the top 5 battle shounen of all time, but is not the winner.

[MyVisionity]

Yuu Yuu Hakusho's characters receive stronger focus and development because the series takes place in the real world and they are written with a more realistic approach, unlike in DB which is a fantasy world full of unrealistically written characters.

Even though Hakusho could have lasted hundreds of more episodes if the author had wanted, it's probably a good thing that it ended when it did since it peaks with Toguro. My only problem with the final arc is that it was rushed due to behind the scenes issues and does not receive the length it deserves. The anime team did what they could but it's still too short. It's not a huge deal though.

Hokuto no Ken is technically a masterpiece compared to DB, just watch a single movie of HnK and compare it to alll 13 DBZ movies... Well, watch the BAKI chinese tournament and ask yourself why in 2020 DragonBall should look less than this...
Hokuto no Ken < > DragonBall (they doesn't match, but is technically superior)

I find Naruto horrible, REALLY horrible in any sense. Plotwise is atrociously boriing and predictable. DragonBall is better.
DragonBall > Naruto

The Hokuto no Ken movie being superior on a technical level doesn't mean much when the tv series itself is in no way technically superior. Also, the HnK movie is so far removed from the series that it doesn't really compare to the DBZ movies, which strike a closer resemblance to the tv series.

I would not say that Naruto is in any way boring, but it does move very slowly at times while also involving some unexciting subject matter. Not everyone can tolerate that sort of thing.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Yu Yu Hakusho was good, I finished rewatching that this week for the first time since 2008.

It's not as good as Dragon Ball though. Especially if you go by the manga, it had a somewhat dodgy start and an absolutely awful ending that was rushed to hell. The artwork went to complete shit. The anime didn't even bother to adapt those parts and was better for it.

[DBZAOTA482]

It's arguably the best of its era however, plenty of shonen (One Piece, Hunter x Hunter, Attack on Titan to name a few) since then have surpassed it with more diverse cast of characters, deeper and more complex plots, and more mature themes.

[Matches Malone]

It's arguably the best of its era however, plenty of shonen (One Piece, Hunter x Hunter, Attack on Titan to name a few) since then have surpassed it with more diverse cast of characters, deeper and more complex plots, and more mature themes.

I think fans of newer shows tend to forget that DB for its time was, to put it lightly, revolutionary. Unlike Naruto, One Piece, etc... that had DB to draw inspiration for, DB didn't have that, and a good number of what Shonen is known for today was started by DB. DB may not be the best Shonen, but it's without a doubt the most important one.

[LoganForkHands73]

It's arguably the best of its era however, plenty of shonen (One Piece, Hunter x Hunter, Attack on Titan to name a few) since then have surpassed it with more diverse cast of characters, deeper and more complex plots, and more mature themes.

I think fans of newer shows tend to forget that DB for its time was, to put it lightly, revolutionary. Unlike Naruto, One Piece, etc... that had DB to draw inspiration for, DB didn't have that, and a good number of what Shonen is known for today was started by DB. DB may not be the best Shonen, but it's without a doubt the most important one.

I dunno man, I think that's overstating it a little. DB had plenty of inspiration, from other manga series and way beyond. The success of Hokuto no Ken which predated it by a year was a huge inspiration, and Shonen Jump had of course been running for years by that point - there were tonnes of other series that had similar tone and content to Dragon Ball. Although Dragon Ball was (and is) hugely successful, it hit that sweet spot by distilling elements from plenty of different sources. Sure, I'd say it's still revolutionary in a way for its sheer popularity and influence, but Toriyama was largely following trends that were already well in place.

[Super Sonic]

Martin told them his overall plan. The execution is what matters, not the plan.

True. I just think that the execution being bad wasn't because GoT went past 6 season. The execution was bad because DnD are bad writers without source material (and or maybe they got greedy and rushed things, because I think they got some sort of Star Wars deal or something).

It’s not that GoT went bad for going more than six seasons its just that most shows generally can’t maintain quality after 3-5 seasons and GoT isn’t an exception.

I take it you guys never saw DS9. Season 6 is when stuff got big due to the war.

[ABED]

True. I just think that the execution being bad wasn't because GoT went past 6 season. The execution was bad because DnD are bad writers without source material (and or maybe they got greedy and rushed things, because I think they got some sort of Star Wars deal or something).

It’s not that GoT went bad for going more than six seasons its just that most shows generally can’t maintain quality after 3-5 seasons and GoT isn’t an exception.

I take it you guys never saw DS9. Season 6 is when stuff got big due to the war.

No, I find Star Trek boring. It's not a hard and fast rule but this is a trend that holds pretty damn true.

[MasenkoHA]

True. I just think that the execution being bad wasn't because GoT went past 6 season. The execution was bad because DnD are bad writers without source material (and or maybe they got greedy and rushed things, because I think they got some sort of Star Wars deal or something).

It’s not that GoT went bad for going more than six seasons its just that most shows generally can’t maintain quality after 3-5 seasons and GoT isn’t an exception.

I take it you guys never saw DS9. Season 6 is when stuff got big due to the war.

I haven’t but note I said shows GENERALLY can’t maintain quality after 3-5 years. Obviously I can’t attest to every single show to ever existed but from my own experience its a good rule of thumb.

[Mister_Popo]

If you consider plot, characters, music, voice acting, animation, art ...
In several of those separate domains you may find shounens that might do just that little bit better. DB might not be the best in one thing. What it does amazingly well and makes all the difference, is that it has been innovative in many of those areas.

It has redefined and marketed the martial arts fantasy genre like never before. Not that good shounens weren't made after DB, but the fact that we see many of its innovative properties and concepts reflected in what came after says a lot about the quality of Dragon Ball.
That is why it remains the best fight shounen of all time in my opinion. Over such a long period it maintained a pretty high level in a substantial amount of different domains.

[RobertDaDon]

It's arguably the best of its era however, plenty of shonen (One Piece, Hunter x Hunter, Attack on Titan to name a few) since then have surpassed it with more diverse cast of characters, deeper and more complex plots, and more mature themes.

This right here.

Also, I think its hypocritical for DB fans of all people to criticize a series for being too long.