Super or GT poll

[Matches Malone]

At least Super was consistent with the starting theme (and got a theme), GT started randomly and changed mid-run.

To be fair, they both weren't exactly consistent. GT had an issue with wanting to be early DB and Z at the same time, while Super wanted to be original and nostalgic at the same time. The end result is both accomplishing neither.

[ChronoTwigger]

I know what a Mary Sue is supposed to mean but it's a BS term. Plenty of iconic characters fall into that category. Batman, Sherlock Holmes, James Bond - all great at everything.

No. A Mary Sue is someone that is OUT OF CONTEXT and for that destroy the story by spoiling everything.
So, Holmes fit his narrative universe, Batman does, Bond does... but if in a movie of Batman appear Jane the Common Girl that for some reason defeat Joker by clapping her hand, while Btaman had at least to struggle, that's a Mary Sue.

In narrative, a Mary Sue is often paired to the concept of "self immersion", the author put himself (mostly, herself) inside the narrative universe to feel important and, not having any relation to the context, "win" without any struggle or previous contextual effort. Like a boy casting himself into DragonBall and become Beerus tier without any training, effort, reason or motivation.

@Matches Malone
That's more of a tone and mood issue you're quoting, I was talking of the plot continuity and structure, GT start too wide and U turned at least three times. Super can be terrible, but all arcs are complying the same theme and tied each other. Not a big point, but that's a point.

[DBPirate]

Voted for Super.

Seems controversial on this forum but I actually find the Future Trunks and TOP arcs to be pretty great. A few minor quibbles here and there, but nothing horrible. The U6 and Battle of Gods sagas are fine. Resurrection F is easily the lowlight of Super, but I still don't find it to be downright awful.

I didn't like most of what was done with any of the characters in GT compared to Super and I'm not a big fan of SS4. I liked some of its concepts -- Goku turning back into a kid (though this should have been a gimmick for one saga only) and the Shadow Dragons specifically. Didn't find either Baby and especially Super 17 to be particularly compelling and I thought that starting the series with a more boring version of the first arc of DB was a bad decision. Not to mention it was horribly set up. I was taken aback at how bad the first few episodes were when I was watching them.

[precita]

My other problem with GT is the characters are even more wasted:

- Gohan really does nothing in GT. His Super portrayal isn't great but it's leagues beyond what he was in GT
- Piccolo shows up for pretty much 1 arc and dies immediately
- Trunks despite being a main character actually does very little, especially when they get back to Earth
- Goten is basically the same as in Super, he's treated as an afterthought
- Vegeta surprisingly does very little in GT, he really gets almost no focus till the final arc. I wonder if Super would ever do this
- Krillin/18 don't even show up till the 17 arc and Krillin immediately dies.
- Yamcha/Tien have no appearance till the finale.
- Boo does nothing and just fuses with Uub so we see nothing of him after

I mean it's mind boggling. GT literally treated the entire cast like an afterthought. I cannot see how anyone could not prefer how Super handled everyone.

[Matches Malone]

Vegeta gets almost no focus till the final arc. I wonder if Super would ever do this

Piccolo shows up for pretty much 1 arc and dies immediately

I cannot see how anyone could not prefer how Super handled everyone.

I doubt it, he's too marketable at this point to set aside. Even in GT, despite not getting much, he still got more than the others.

At least Picoclo kept his arms on in GT.

Goku's terrible in Super.
Vegeta and #17 are definitely better in Super.
Piccolo's sacrifice and helping Goku escape Hell in GT was more productive than getting beat up by henchmen.
Gohan was kicked by both, but he was treated with more dignity in GT. He also didn't go through the same arc like in Super.
In GT Goten and Trunks have lives and get to fight alongside everyone else, unlike in Super.
#18 had good development in GT, unlike in Super where all she cares about is $$$.
Buu thankfully did more in GT than fall asleep.

[ABED]

I know what a Mary Sue is supposed to mean but it's a BS term. Plenty of iconic characters fall into that category. Batman, Sherlock Holmes, James Bond - all great at everything.

No. A Mary Sue is someone that is OUT OF CONTEXT and for that destroy the story by spoiling everything.
So, Holmes fit his narrative universe, Batman does, Bond does... but if in a movie of Batman appear Jane the Common Girl that for some reason defeat Joker by clapping her hand, while Btaman had at least to struggle, that's a Mary Sue.

In narrative, a Mary Sue is often paired to the concept of "self immersion", the author put himself (mostly, herself) inside the narrative universe to feel important and, not having any relation to the context, "win" without any struggle or previous contextual effort. Like a boy casting himself into DragonBall and become Beerus tier without any training, effort, reason or motivation.

@Matches Malone
That's more of a tone and mood issue you're quoting, I was talking of the plot continuity and structure, GT start too wide and U turned at least three times. Super can be terrible, but all arcs are complying the same theme and tied each other. Not a big point, but that's a point.

And yet it's almost always used to disparage hyper competent female characters. Rey is a Mary Sue. Caulifa is a Mary Sue.

When you say "out of context" what does that even mean? Wesley Crusher is considered by some to be a Mary Sue because he's a hypercompetent teenager. Luke Skywalker never gets that label yet he's competent at pretty much everything very quickly and all his flaws are introduced in the sequels. He's also a self insert character.

[WittyUsername]

In terms of the Mary Sue debate, I don’t have any particularly strong opinions on which characters qualify, but regarding Caulifla, I’d say that Future Trunks fits the label a bit better than she does. The main thing about Caulifla that people seem to think makes her a Mary Sue is how quickly she learns how to go Super Saiyan 1 and 2, but honestly, the whole Super Saiyan thing had long since stopped being special by that point.

[precita]

They really should have said Universe 6 Saiyans are more powerful from the start or have them tap into Super Saiyan more easily.

[ABED]

They really should have said Universe 6 Saiyans are more powerful from the start or have them tap into Super Saiyan more easily.

It wouldn't have changed anything, and why does it matter? Does anyone have this big of an issue with Trunks and Goten having no trouble turning Super Saiyan as youngsters without any training?

[Dbzfan94]

GT hands down.

For all GT's faults, it never once made me feel rage like DBS did.

[Grimlock]

I voted neither in that poll. The best sequel to Dragon Ball is obviously Dragon Ball Online. But if I had to pick a series, it would be Dragon Ball GT, for sure.

Please let this be the last "GT vs Super" thread, though. We've had enough of these already.

[Polyphase Avatron]

They really should have said Universe 6 Saiyans are more powerful from the start or have them tap into Super Saiyan more easily.

It wouldn't have changed anything, and why does it matter? Does anyone have this big of an issue with Trunks and Goten having no trouble turning Super Saiyan as youngsters without any training?

I think that's because they were the children of Super Saiyans already, so that kind of makes it more believable, like they have it in their genes or something?

[MyVisionity]

A "Mary Sue" does not mean being the main character. Goku is a gifted fighter who always saves the day, but that's because he is the main character. Also, Goku has flaws and is not perfect. Neither is Batman who is not great at everything.

If the character is so great that they appear to be perfect, to the extent that it defies believability and credibility, then the whole "Mary Sue" argument comes into play. But again, "Mary Sue" is a concept rooted in sexism and should be challenged in its usage. The real issue here is the writing of characters that are so perfect that it does a disservice to the story and a disservice to the audience.

[ABED]

They really should have said Universe 6 Saiyans are more powerful from the start or have them tap into Super Saiyan more easily.

It wouldn't have changed anything, and why does it matter? Does anyone have this big of an issue with Trunks and Goten having no trouble turning Super Saiyan as youngsters without any training?

I think that's because they were the children of Super Saiyans already, so that kind of makes it more believable, like they have it in their genes or something?

It happens off screen and they got no training. They did it on their own.

What's ridiculous about this dumb term in this context is Kaulifa doesn't do much. She's not important to the resolution of the story. She just provides an interesting fight for Goku when he's drained.

Neither is Batman who is not great at everything.

He pretty much is. He's mastered so many things that take decades to master. He's the smartest guy in the room, he's the best fighter, he can beat anyone with enough time to plan. It is often ridiculous how much he is able to master by the time he puts on the costume.

[KPike87]

They're about the same level for me, but GT's ending gives it a slight edge for me.

[precita]

They really should have said Universe 6 Saiyans are more powerful from the start or have them tap into Super Saiyan more easily.

It wouldn't have changed anything, and why does it matter? Does anyone have this big of an issue with Trunks and Goten having no trouble turning Super Saiyan as youngsters without any training?

Trunks and Goten were born after their parents were already strong. You might as well ask why Pan can fly as an infant when all other Saiyans could not.

It's obviously something in the genes passed down that all the kids are far more strong than the parents were at their age.

[WittyUsername]

A "Mary Sue" does not mean being the main character. Goku is a gifted fighter who always saves the day, but that's because he is the main character. Also, Goku has flaws and is not perfect. Neither is Batman who is not great at everything.

If the character is so great that they appear to be perfect, to the extent that it defies believability and credibility, then the whole "Mary Sue" argument comes into play. But again, "Mary Sue" is a concept rooted in sexism and should be challenged in its usage. The real issue here is the writing of characters that are so perfect that it does a disservice to the story and a disservice to the audience.

There is technically a male equivalent of the term (Gary Stu), but more often than not, the whole concept does appear to primarily be used to describe female characters. That much is true. As far as I can tell, the term seemed to receive a big bump in popularity after The Force Awakens.

[MyVisionity]

Neither is Batman who is not great at everything.

He pretty much is. He's mastered so many things that take decades to master. He's the smartest guy in the room, he's the best fighter, he can beat anyone with enough time to plan. It is often ridiculous how much he is able to master by the time he puts on the costume.

He's arguably the "world's greatest detective" perhaps. But everything else is just limited. He's a good fighter, but he can still be beaten. He's smart sure, but not necessarily always the smartest in the room. Yeah, he mastered a lot, but he was driven while also being naturally gifted.

Goku is the same. He's great, yes, but not necessarily the best, and not without flaws. Goku and Batman are the main characters is why.

But again, "Mary Sue" is a concept rooted in sexism and should be challenged in its usage.

There is technically a male equivalent of the term (Gary Stu), but more often than not, the whole concept does appear to primarily be used to describe female characters. That much is true. As far as I can tell, the term seemed to receive a big bump in popularity after The Force Awakens.

There being a male equivalent does not make the Mary Sue concept any less sexist. And "Gary Stu" is equally misogynistic, as it evokes the original concept by way of the name being a rhyme of "Mary Sue".

[ChronoTwigger]

And yet it's almost always used to disparage hyper competent female characters. Rey is a Mary Sue. Caulifa is a Mary Sue.

When you say "out of context" what does that even mean? Wesley Crusher is considered by some to be a Mary Sue because he's a hypercompetent teenager. Luke Skywalker never gets that label yet he's competent at pretty much everything very quickly and all his flaws are introduced in the sequels. He's also a self insert character.

Fun you quoted Star Trek. The original Mary Sue appeared in a fan fiction that shown how a normal girl acting rationally in Star Trek will become leader of the entire space fleet in 5 minutes DOING NOTHING (no power, no actions) simply by the default reaction of the roster.

Now you can spot the definition of "contextual" by your own quotes.
A: Crusher is a boy that for 72 times in the plot instead of being erased/fired up from federation/vaporized/killed get more and more advantages as consequence for the sole and not justified reason to have him again in the plot. Other characters suffer harsh consequences for those deeds or they need to have some requisites for that advantages. Crushers simply "is right" the whole time, or become right.
B: Luke is a Jedi, have the powers of Jedi, had to learn to fight, get injured, get mutilated, face the risk of falling to the Dark Side, he must take a ship to get somewhere. He suffer consequences of his actions.

A Mary Sue is a character written in a way that spoil the plot structure and setting, so destroying the stated rules.
Goku isn't. Bond isn't. Holmes isn't. They follow the stated rules. You need KI to shoot beams, and you need to bash Freeza to win. A DB Mary Sue is someone that come in, talk to Freeza and Freeza comply and stop being evil.

The original definition get lost, and online you mostly find Mary Sue is someone that got uncanny powers. But the concept is more subtle. A Mary Sue is a character that "win" without the contextual requisites (even "being the last Jedi" could be a requisite... A Mary Sue win in a Jedi contest without being a Jedi... for forced plot reasons!).

[ABED]

B: Luke is a Jedi, have the powers of Jedi, had to learn to fight, get injured, get mutilated, face the risk of falling to the Dark Side, he must take a ship to get somewhere. He suffer consequences of his actions.

Again, we're not talking about the sequels. He had a day or two of training at best. He grew up on a farm and drove a speeder but apparently is an expert fighter pilot and becomes a war hero when he can use the force well enough to get the torpedo to go exactly where he needs it to. All the other stuff you mentioned is in the sequels. Also, he's a self insert for George Lucas.

A Mary Sue is a character written in a way that spoil the plot structure and setting, so destroying the stated rules.
Goku isn't. Bond isn't. Holmes isn't. They follow the stated rules. You need KI to shoot beams, and you need to bash Freeza to win. A DB Mary Sue is someone that come in, talk to Freeza and Freeza comply and stop being evil.

I'm gonna need a source because this is the first I've heard of that supposed definition. Regardless, it's a dumb term that serves no constructive purpose. Who cares if any character is great at everything? The only thing that matters is if the character is interesting. Fiction and people are too complex to boil down to a bunch of rule as to what makes for an interesting character.

Trunks and Goten were born after their parents were already strong. You might as well ask why Pan can fly as an infant when all other Saiyans could not.

It's obviously something in the genes passed down that all the kids are far more strong than the parents were at their age.

Flying is shown to be a not very complicated technique. They just need to be shown how to do it. Super Saiyan isn't a mere technique. It requires strong emotion to achieve.