"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[SupremeKai25]

You know this whole conversation has made me question why the Supreme Kai’s life is tied to that universes God of Destruction and not the Grand Supreme Kai. All logic should point towards the grand supreme kai’s life being tied to Beerus’s and not Shins.

The only reason I can conclude is that the whole thing is simply a plot device to allow Black and Zamasu to kill all the Gods without actually being on Beerus’s level

I would say because at this point the Grand Supreme Kai is a concept only related to U7. The other universes don't seem to have multiple Supreme Kais. For example, only Gowasu and his apprentice Zamasu (who was previously a North Kai) lived in the Sacred World of U10, there were no other Supreme Kais to be seen in the vicinity.

Perhaps Zeno or the Grand Priest decided to send more Supreme Kais to U7 because they foresaw the high number of threats U7 would go through. Frieza's criminal empire, the Androids, Majin Buu, Moro... No other universe has had as many threats to the world and Gods as U7. Perhaps Zeno or the Grand Priest felt that more divine presence was required in that universe, hence why only U7 has multiple Supreme Kais and a Grand Supreme Kai.

This isn't a plot device however. Beerus and Shin were already dead in the Future timeline. Shin died against Majin Buu, so Beerus and Whis were gone too. That's the reason why Zamasu decided to go to the Future Trunks timeline. He wouldn't have had to deal with a GoD anyway.

[TobyS]

You know this whole conversation has made me question why the Supreme Kai’s life is tied to that universes God of Destruction and not the Grand Supreme Kai. All logic should point towards the grand supreme kai’s life being tied to Beerus’s and not Shins.

The only reason I can conclude is that the whole thing is simply a plot device to allow Black and Zamasu to kill all the Gods without actually being on Beerus’s level

I would say because at this point the Grand Supreme Kai is a concept only related to U7. The other universes don't seem to have multiple Supreme Kais. For example, only Gowasu and his apprentice Zamasu (who was previously a North Kai) lived in the Sacred World of U10, there were no other Supreme Kais to be seen in the vicinity.

Perhaps Zeno or the Grand Priest decided to send more Supreme Kais to U7 because they foresaw the high number of threats U7 would go through. Frieza's criminal empire, the Androids, Majin Buu, Moro... No other universe has had as many threats to the world and Gods as U7. Perhaps Zeno or the Grand Priest felt that more divine presence was required in that universe, hence why only U7 has multiple Supreme Kais and a Grand Supreme Kai.

This isn't a plot device however. Beerus and Shin were already dead in the Future timeline. Shin died against Majin Buu, so Beerus and Whis were gone too. That's the reason why Zamasu decided to go to the Future Trunks timeline. He wouldn't have had to deal with a GoD anyway.

The totally plausible fan explanation is that the grand supreme Kai is really just the supreme Kaioshin all the others were really apprentices like Kibito. When the supreme Kai dies an apprentice takes his spot, you need to kill all apprentices and Kaioshin to kill Beerus.

Perhaps they only automatically can/do become the next supreme Kai if they are a gold fruit core person.

All the other worlds supreme Kai's are the grand supreme Kai by default as is now shin.

Our grand supreme Kai was just a super prodigy in top of that.

Another headcanon is like rather then a gold fruit a grand supreme Kaioshin is an ultra rare platinum fruit or something.

[Galan007]

My personal theory is that because Boo had been rampaging in U7 since time immemorial, the higher powers felt it was necessary to inject more Kaioshin into that universe in an effort to help offset the destruction Boo had been causing for untold eons.

Five Kaioshin out there creating/seeding worlds(instead of just one) would at least help give U7 more of a fighting chance for survival. It would also explain why each of them was only responsible for a specific sector of the universe, and not the entirety of it: South Kaioshin would help repopulate the southern portion of the universe, East Kaioshin would help repopulate the eastern portion of the universe, etc. etc.

[precita]

I wish Grand Kai appeared, this was the perfect time to canonize him. Seeing how incompetent Shin is, it would be nice to have someone wise in charge of the good deities.

Unless I'm mistaken, I'm pretty sure Grand Kai IS canon in the original manga. They don't show him in-person like in the anime Boo saga, but he's mentioned. It's the other two Kai's, East and West Kai, (the purple one who had Pikkon and the female one) that haven't been shown in the manga.

So technically all the original Kai's are canon but two of them were only shown in the anime.

[Galan007]

Unless I'm mistaken, I'm pretty sure Grand Kai IS canon in the original manga. They don't show him in-person like in the anime Boo saga, but he's mentioned.

Yeah, DaiKaio was mentioned(albeit very briefly) in the manga:
https://ibb.co/3SRnJTg

So he is indeed "canon"... Though the likelihood of him ever appearing is slim to none, imo. There's really no logical reason I can think of to [re]introduce a lower-level Kai at this point. /shrug

[TobyS]

My personal theory is that because Boo had been rampaging in U7 since time immemorial, the higher powers felt it was necessary to inject more Kaioshin into that universe in an effort to help offset the destruction Boo had been causing for untold eons.

Five Kaioshin out there creating/seeding worlds(instead of just one) would at least help give U7 more of a fighting chance for survival. It would also explain why each of them was only responsible for a specific sector of the universe, and not the entirety of it: South Kaioshin would help repopulate the southern portion of the universe, East Kaioshin would help repopulate the eastern portion of the universe, etc. etc.

That's a decent theory too, but none of the other universes in the TOP despite at least U9 being lower seem to have more then one Kaioshin, unless again on top of your theory, they are only sending their Dai-Kaioshin to represent them.
But then elder kai is there too so....

[Galan007]

That's a decent theory too, but none of the other universes in the TOP despite at least U9 being lower seem to have more then one Kaioshin, unless again on top of your theory, they are only sending their Dai-Kaioshin to represent them.
But then elder kai is there too so....

I think the five Kaioshin thing was exclusive to U7. It has never been alluded to that any other universes have employed more than one active, full-fledged Kaioshin at any given time.

And as mentioned above: I personally think the reason for U7 being permitted to have five active Kaioshin simultaneously could come down to Boo. Toriyama confirmed that Boo has existed since time immemorial(effectively making him the oldest being in creation barring, possibly, Zen-Oh and some of the Angels.) This means he would have been sporadically wreaking havoc across U7 for untold eons before he confronted DaiKaioshin and the others. And since we also know the Kaioshin are akin to celestial gardners who are tasked with creating/seeding planets within their universe, it's possible that the 'higher powers' of the multiverse(namely Zen-Oh and/or GP) noticed the problem, and injected several additional Kaioshin into U7 in an effort to help offset some of the uncontrolled devastation that Boo had caused, and give that reality a greater chance for survival -- especially since Boo would go into long periods of hibernation between his cycles of destruction, which would make repopulating U7 more achievable... That's my head-canon, at least. /shrug

That said, there are still holes in my theory. For example, why not just order Beerus to eradicate Boo instead of going through the trouble of inserting multiple Kaioshin into U7 and having them rebuild from scratch..? Of course, it's possible that Beerus may not have been powerful enough to kill Boo back then, but that's a topic for another day.

tl;dr
I like my theory and I'm sticking with it.


...As for Elder Kai: he isn't an active Kaioshin(he hasn't been since Beerus sealed him in the Z Sword.) So personally, I wouldn't include him in U7's current list of Kaioshin, anymore than I would include guys like Kibito or Zamasu... Even though Elder Kai is probably still more useful than Shin overall.

[TobyS]

That's a decent theory too, but none of the other universes in the TOP despite at least U9 being lower seem to have more then one Kaioshin, unless again on top of your theory, they are only sending their Dai-Kaioshin to represent them.
But then elder kai is there too so....

I think the five Kaioshin thing was exclusive to U7. It has never been alluded to that any other universes have employed more than one active, full-fledged Kaioshin at any given time.

And as mentioned above: I personally think the reason for U7 being permitted to have five active Kaioshin simultaneously could come down to Boo. Toriyama confirmed that Boo has existed since time immemorial(effectively making him the oldest being in creation barring, possibly, Zen-Oh and some of the Angels.) This means he would have been sporadically wreaking havoc across U7 for untold eons before he confronted DaiKaioshin and the others. And since we also know the Kaioshin are akin to celestial gardners who are tasked with creating/seeding planets within their universe, it's possible that the 'higher powers' of the multiverse(namely Zen-Oh and/or GP) noticed the problem, and injected several additional Kaioshin into U7 in an effort to help offset some of the uncontrolled devastation that Boo had caused, and give that reality a greater chance for survival -- especially since Boo would go into long periods of hibernation between his cycles of destruction, which would make repopulating U7 more achievable... That's my head-canon, at least. /shrug

That said, there are still holes in my theory. For example, why not just order Beerus to eradicate Boo instead of going through the trouble of inserting multiple Kaioshin into U7 and having them rebuild from scratch..? Of course, it's possible that Beerus may not have been powerful enough to kill Boo back then, but that's a topic for another day.

tl;dr
I like my theory and I'm sticking with it.


...As for Elder Kai: he isn't an active Kaioshin(he hasn't been since Beerus sealed him in the Z Sword.) So personally, I wouldn't include him in U7's current list of Kaioshin, anymore than I would include guys like Kibito or Zamasu... Even though Elder Kai is probably still more useful than Shin overall.

Yeah I'm not sure how long Buu rampages are spaced out vs how long Beerus has been around and improved. You think Beerus would have been Buu level at one of the previous rampages given how strong he is now.
They also have a way of sealing beings so he could have done that even if a bit weaker.

What I meant about Elder kai is it shows you can bring other kaioshin associated people to the TOP so it kinda proves there was no other supreme kais in the other unis. Yeah he's not an active Kaio but they didn't bring any other spectators either so I feel like it's more his somewhat Kaio status that allows him to come.

[Galan007]

What I meant about Elder kai is it shows you can bring other kaioshin associated people to the TOP so it kinda proves there was no other supreme kais in the other unis. Yeah he's not an active Kaio but they didn't bring any other spectators either so I feel like it's more his somewhat Kaio status that allows him to come.

Oh yeah, most definitely.

Elder Kai may not be an active Kaioshin anymore, but he still seems to get many of the privileges that come with the title -- like being able to resurrect Goku by giving up his own life(with a thought), then immediately popping back up in his own body on the Kaioshin world:
https://ibb.co/VTw5sVS
https://ibb.co/3sJ87Zp

[Brettjr25]

What I meant about Elder kai is it shows you can bring other kaioshin associated people to the TOP so it kinda proves there was no other supreme kais in the other unis. Yeah he's not an active Kaio but they didn't bring any other spectators either so I feel like it's more his somewhat Kaio status that allows him to come.

Oh yeah, most definitely.

Elder Kai may not be an active Kaioshin anymore, but he still seems to get many of the privileges that come with the title -- like being able to resurrect Goku by giving up his own life(with a thought), then immediately popping back up in his own body on the Kaioshin world:
https://ibb.co/VTw5sVS
https://ibb.co/3sJ87Zp

That was hilarious! I miss that. Can you imagine if that happened with Meerus? LOL

[AndLad92]

What I meant about Elder kai is it shows you can bring other kaioshin associated people to the TOP so it kinda proves there was no other supreme kais in the other unis. Yeah he's not an active Kaio but they didn't bring any other spectators either so I feel like it's more his somewhat Kaio status that allows him to come.

Oh yeah, most definitely.

Elder Kai may not be an active Kaioshin anymore, but he still seems to get many of the privileges that come with the title -- like being able to resurrect Goku by giving up his own life(with a thought), then immediately popping back up in his own body on the Kaioshin world:
https://ibb.co/VTw5sVS
https://ibb.co/3sJ87Zp

Before Elder Kai gave up his life to Goku, he told them that he only had 1.000 years left in him. There's a fan theory that Goku then can live for these 1.000 years, which also is why Goku is seen unchanged and in his prime in the 100 years epilogue in DBGT.
What do you guys think of that?

[Dragon Wukong]

There is some indication in the manga that Elder Kai may still be officially a Supreme Kai. His death is considered significant somewhat in the backstory for Future Trunks before the FT arc began, and seems to be hinted as possibly part of why Beerus died.

[Devilman21/]

TobyS mentioned this earlier but I think an easy answer to "5 Kaioshin" issue is just to retcon the 4 Kaioshin into being the Dai Kaioshin's apprentices much like how Zamasu was to Gowasu or Kibito to Shin (although the latter seems to be more of an attendant). It does raise the question as to why he was called "Grand Supreme Kai" and not just Supreme Kai, but it could easily be explained that Dai Kaioshin simply appointed all of his apprentices to the status of Kaioshin to aid him in the maintenance of Uni7. Maybe in response to Moro or Boo? I believe Shin mentioned that the universe was experiencing a lengthy period of peace under Dai Kaioshin reign prior to Boo's rampage, but we know Moro was around causing chaos and that Boo was going through cycles of destruction. So perhaps the timeline looked like this:

Dai Kaioshin becomes Kaioshin of Uni7 > big threats like Moro and Boo begin popping up > he then appoints Shin and co. to Kaioshin status in order to stabilize universe 7, becoming the Dai Kaioshin > Moro is defeated, Boo goes into hibernation, 5 million years of peace ensue > Boo awakens and kills everyone leaving Shin as the only Kaioshin left to take over.

This would explain why Shin is so inexperienced. He was a Kaioshin apprentice who was still undergoing training before being thrusted into the role of Kaioshin and then entrusted to be the sole guardian of universe 7. He then later recruits Kibito to be his own apprentice/aid to help him out.

[Galan007]

Before Elder Kai gave up his life to Goku, he told them that he only had 1.000 years left in him. There's a fan theory that Goku then can live for these 1.000 years, which also is why Goku is seen unchanged and in his prime in the 100 years epilogue in DBGT.
What do you guys think of that?

I like the theory, tbh.

...Even though that was almost certainly not the reason why Goku hadn't aged past his prime in the GT epilogue.

There is some indication in the manga that Elder Kai may still be officially a Supreme Kai. His death is considered significant somewhat in the backstory for Future Trunks before the FT arc began, and seems to be hinted as possibly part of why Beerus died.

Beerus was killed in Trunks' timeline because Dabura killed Shin. Elder Kai hadn't even been released from the Z Sword.

[precita]

Didn't Grand Kai get at least a single panel/picture similar to Bardock in the original manga? I vaguely remember seeing the Grand Kai in manga form at some point, but I haven't read the manga in a long time.

Also who was the green Kai looking character with the U6 Kai in the Universe 6 tournament? Was he just a Kibito-like attendant?

[Grimlock]

No, it's Dai Kaioshin who "briefly" appears in the manga. Dai Kaio doesn't appear but is mentioned twice: the first time by Piccolo when he learns Kaioshin of East's true identity and the other by Dende prior to the fight against Buu.

[Dragon Wukong]

There is some indication in the manga that Elder Kai may still be officially a Supreme Kai. His death is considered significant somewhat in the backstory for Future Trunks before the FT arc began, and seems to be hinted as possibly part of why Beerus died.

Beerus was killed in Trunks' timeline because Dabura killed Shin. Elder Kai hadn't even been released from the Z Sword.

One of the interstitials shows that after the Z Sword was turned into stone and broke Elder Kai died, as it shows him as a ghost rising from the rubble of the Z sword.

Keep in mind that Elder Kai was an active Supreme Kai when Beerus himself sealed him in said sword.

[TobyS]

I think Elder kai died just as an extension of how everyone dies in the future and it's hopeless.
Or why Trunks wasn't Ultimate.

It could be that if he was alive and shin died he'd sorta become the next kaioshin like shin did after the grand kaio died so him dying first prevented that I suppose.

With Grand kai you are confusing 2 things.
1. Grand kai is mentioned to exist.
2. Toriyama did do the character design for him.

It can be assumed the manga version mentioned thus does look like that. But yeah.

[Matches Malone]

The drafts should be out within the next 2 days so hopefully it gives us an idea about how things will go down.

[FlpShimizu]

Hoping for a planet sized Spirit Fission from my man Vegeta