"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Kanassa]

Ok i am extreme defender of Super but even i cant defend the leak i just saw.

At this point even GT makes more sense.

I mean, it's dumb, but it's no where close to the worst thing this arc has done.

Out of curiosity, what do you think is the worst thing in this arc?

The repeated artificial extension of the plot. It's something that annoyed me back in the Cell saga, but at least then it was something that was easy to miss, in this arc you could only get more blatant if the characters pulled out the script and says "It says the plot isn't done yet. Quick, someone pull out a bullshit excuse that the villain or hero doesn't end it.". And this is an arc that I feel never benefitted from the length, so much shit could be cut and the only thing you lose is a nice looking battle or two because previous scenes you'd think were gonna be important turn out to be basically dead ends (this chapter is basically the manga's last chance to make Vegeta's trip to Yardrat actually matter).

This Goku spirit bullshit looks like it'll be dumb (and the draft pages telling us that Whis has to come down and tell Goku the solution instead of having our main characters figure it out is annoying also), but at least you can go "Fuck it, it's providing the interesting visuals this arc has sorely been missing".

[Matches Malone]

This is an arc that I feel never benefitted from the length, so much shit could be cut and the only thing you lose is a nice looking battle or two because previous scenes you'd think were gonna be important turn out to be basically dead ends.

This arc could've been easily cut in half and nothing important would be lost.

[Kinokima]

This is an arc that I feel never benefitted from the length, so much shit could be cut and the only thing you lose is a nice looking battle or two because previous scenes you'd think were gonna be important turn out to be basically dead ends.

This arc could've been easily cut in half and nothing important would be lost.

If this was an anime the announcer would end the episode with “Moro is finally going down...but wait” lol

[DiscountDabi]

Goku giving Moro a Senzu bean isn’t even in my top 10. Its a dumb decision, but no more dumb than giving Cell a Senzu. Or Piccolo.

He gave Piccolo a bean because if he didn't, Kami would've died with him.

He gave Cell a bean because he was trying to have a fair competition, at least in the beginning.

He gave Moro a bean because...???

Piccolos isn’t as bad, for the reasons you listed here. But there were other options, such as using the dragon balls to sever the connection between the two or simply imprisonment in the Room of Spirit and Time.

Cells is definitely not justified since no one yet could defeat Cell and if it wasn’t for 16, Cell would have gotten bored and just kill Gohan which is something Goku couldn’t have accounted for.

Even though Goku giving Moro a Senzu bean is a Dumb decision, from Goku’s perspective he just 3 shot him. And Moro is out of options, as far as he is aware at the time since there was no way he could have anticipated Moro taking Merus’s hand.

But its still not relavent as its still not Dumber than Moro 73’s entire existence.

[Lionel]

Goku giving Moro a Senzu bean isn’t even in my top 10. Its a dumb decision, but no more dumb than giving Cell a Senzu. Or Piccolo.

He gave Piccolo a bean because if he didn't, Kami would've died with him.

He gave Cell a bean because he was trying to have a fair competition, at least in the beginning.

He gave Moro a bean because...???

Couldn't Kami have attempted the Mafuba once more and prevented Piccolo from wreaking any more havoc? By that point Piccolo was down and out with a seeming lack of ability to resist. I think that alternative could have worked.

I would categorically place it next to Vegeta allowing Cell to absorb #18. Goku was thinking purely through the mindset of a martial artist and not someone trying to save the world. You could argue that Goku's initial notion was that his son also wanted to fight Cell on an equally rested footing for the sake of sportsmanship but it doesn't help or benefit anyone except those two.

This may just be my opinion but I believe having Dende arrive and perform just enough restorative healing to stabilise Moro should have been the limit of the treatment that monster received. Moro being allowed his full stamina was unnecessary and felt like a hackneyed segue into the next act with Moro gaining Merus' abilities followed up with this new debacle in him merging with the planet.

[Kanassa]

Goku giving Moro a Senzu bean isn’t even in my top 10. Its a dumb decision, but no more dumb than giving Cell a Senzu. Or Piccolo.

He gave Piccolo a bean because if he didn't, Kami would've died with him.

He gave Cell a bean because he was trying to have a fair competition, at least in the beginning.

He gave Moro a bean because...???

Piccolos isn’t as bad, for the reasons you listed here. But there were other options, such as using the dragon balls to sever the connection between the two or simply imprisonment in the Room of Spirit and Time.

Cells is definitely not justified since no one yet could defeat Cell and if it wasn’t for 16, Cell would have gotten bored and just kill Gohan which is something Goku couldn’t have accounted for.

Even though Goku giving Moro a Senzu bean is a Dumb decision, from Goku’s perspective he just 3 shot him. And Moro is out of options, as far as he is aware at the time since there was no way he could have anticipated Moro taking Merus’s hand.

But its still not relavent as its still not Dumber than Moro 73’s entire existence.

Piccolo was very clear cut at the time, Goku didn't want to kill or imprison him because he was the strongest person Goku had faced at the time and Goku wanted him to get stronger. Piccolo only really wanted to beat Goku because Goku beat his father, with his more destructive aspirations being more of a "Maybe I'll get round to it sometime after I've won..." sorta deal, despite his boasting about being evil reincarnated, he was never really a threat they needed to worry about letting free. Also, the Dragon Balls can't sever the connection between Kami and Piccolo, they're as strong as their creator and Kami wasn't able to do that.

Goku giving Cell the sensu bean is a dumb move in a strategic sense, but from a story and character perspective, it's... Fine, if a bit frustrating. It's made to fit with the character and give an interesting look at Goku's mindset, leading into his sacrifice. It wasn't just that Goku thought Gohan wanted a shot, it was that he NEEDED Gohan to beat Cell fairly at full strength. Part of Gohan's problem in the cell fight is how much confidence he lacks in himself and, in Goku's eyes, if Gohan didn't fight Cell at full strength that problem would persist and Gohan would never be confident enough to take over for him. GOku's mistake is that he didn't know that another part of the problem is that Gohan didn't want to fight.

Here, the sensu bean isn't only stupid (this entire arc has been about Moro suddenly pulling out life saving abilities at the last second, so just assuming Moro can't try anything is something Goku should understand by this point), but it makes no sense. Goku wants Moro to return to jail. Why does Goku give him a sensu bean? Why would he put Moro in the care of people who can't handle Moro and then make it even worse by having Moro be at full strength on the way back? And what, Goku doesn't think backstabbing bastard Moro won't just wait until he's off planet and then slaughter all the Galactic Patrolmen and hide until he's strong enough to kill Goku? Even for Goku, this decision has no basis that I really have to question what Goku was thinking would happen.

It's also made worst because it just feels pointless. Why have Goku make this needless offer when you could just have Moro find the hand anyway? All this moment does is reinforce this arc being a highlight reel of previous arcs with none of the charm.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Who’s to say Vegeta isn’t doing this to Goku. I mean Vegeta saw Pibara do it and could have figured it out. And given Moro still has Angel Power in him it wouldn’t make sense for Vegeta to beat him just doing this technique.

Like Kanassa says, Vegeta seems as surprised as anyone by this development, so I doubt it's his doing as such. However, it's possible it could be Goku unexpectedly riffing on something Vegeta's started. So, say:

• We see Moro eating the energy of Earth and its people in the draft pages, so there's more energy to use.
• We see SSjB^e Vegeta 'about to do something' at the end of the draft pages that most fans interpret as a set-up for Forced Spirit Fission.
• We see Moro has seriously deteriorated from his draft page self somehow in these new pages, whereas Vegeta's fine, albeit powered down again.

So, conceivably Vegeta could have 'done something' like split off the energy of Earth that Moro's eaten (as well as splitting off Moro from Earth), for Goku to take the energy (instead of it being released and sent back to its owners like Vegeta did before) and use it in the way we've already seen.

Of course, this could also just be a new, Goku-only thing, but it's fun to speculate; it would be nice for Vegeta to have a key role in this development somehow (as others have said, the development seems suited to what we've seen of Vegeta's arc so far). Whatever the case, I think it looks pretty cool.

[YamiGoku]

This arc may not be perfect and have stupid things, but people need to rewatch GT if they think this is worse than the First arc of GT, or the super 17 arc or the shadow dragon arc, hell even the Baby arc wasn't that great.

I bet you all couldn't finish the first arc of GT of how boring it is.

I dont want to insult what other people like, especially on the same franchise I love, but It gets in my nerves when people see something they don't like and instantly use the "GT is better" card, not to defend GT but to insult super, I'm sorry but GT has like no memorable moments or good fights compared to super, the only things GT actually did Better is SSj4, the consistent animation, the music and the ending, everything else is absolutely failure.

[FlpShimizu]

This arc may not be perfect and have stupid things, but people need to rewatch GT if they think this is worse than the First arc of GT, or the super 17 arc or the shadow dragon arc, hell even the Baby arc wasn't that great.

I bet you all couldn't finish the first arc of GT of how boring it is.

I dont want to insult what other people like, especially on the same franchise I love, but It gets in my nerves when people see something they don't like and instantly use the "GT is better" card, not to defend GT but to insult super, I'm sorry but GT has like no memorable moments or good fights compared to super, the only things GT actually did Better is SSj4, the consistent animation, the music and the ending, everything else is absolutely failure.

I agree. The gulf in quality is not subjective. You can like it more of course, the better product doesn't need to be your favorite, that's indeed subjective.

I made two super long videos: one had all the best fight scenes from Super and the other had the GT ones. I was biased towards animation rather than on model stills and the difference was huge. Super's video has almost 9 hours with 131 episodes while GT's barely surpasses 2 hours with 64 episodes.

I just started editing the OG Dragon Ball one and I can already tell it's gonna be another defeat for GT. That said, I LOVE GT. That's why I also edited a video with it. GT does not deserve to be used as a low standard measuring stick for Super, neither of them deserve it.

[Kinokima]

This arc may not be perfect and have stupid things, but people need to rewatch GT if they think this is worse than the First arc of GT, or the super 17 arc or the shadow dragon arc, hell even the Baby arc wasn't that great.

I bet you all couldn't finish the first arc of GT of how boring it is.

I dont want to insult what other people like, especially on the same franchise I love, but It gets in my nerves when people see something they don't like and instantly use the "GT is better" card, not to defend GT but to insult super, I'm sorry but GT has like no memorable moments or good fights compared to super, the only things GT actually did Better is SSj4, the consistent animation, the music and the ending, everything else is absolutely failure.

I never found any enjoyment in GT except a few moments here and there so I guess I agree with you

But with Super my expectations gets raised and then dashed in the end. I honestly don’t know what is worse

[Xeogran]

I bet you all couldn't finish the first arc of GT of how boring it is.

I finished and liked it. It's a short (like 20 episode long) adventure. Rildo's fight was pretty cool too as an ending to it before the climax with Baby. Acting like it's somehow impossible to get through it is subjective.

But maybe because I was introduced to GT from the start, rather than skipping the beginning for no reason but only because a certain dubbing company did so.

[DiscountDabi]

He gave Piccolo a bean because if he didn't, Kami would've died with him.

He gave Cell a bean because he was trying to have a fair competition, at least in the beginning.

He gave Moro a bean because...???

Piccolos isn’t as bad, for the reasons you listed here. But there were other options, such as using the dragon balls to sever the connection between the two or simply imprisonment in the Room of Spirit and Time.

Cells is definitely not justified since no one yet could defeat Cell and if it wasn’t for 16, Cell would have gotten bored and just kill Gohan which is something Goku couldn’t have accounted for.

Even though Goku giving Moro a Senzu bean is a Dumb decision, from Goku’s perspective he just 3 shot him. And Moro is out of options, as far as he is aware at the time since there was no way he could have anticipated Moro taking Merus’s hand.

But its still not relavent as its still not Dumber than Moro 73’s entire existence.

Piccolo was very clear cut at the time, Goku didn't want to kill or imprison him because he was the strongest person Goku had faced at the time and Goku wanted him to get stronger. Piccolo only really wanted to beat Goku because Goku beat his father, with his more destructive aspirations being more of a "Maybe I'll get round to it sometime after I've won..." sorta deal, despite his boasting about being evil reincarnated, he was never really a threat they needed to worry about letting free. Also, the Dragon Balls can't sever the connection between Kami and Piccolo, they're as strong as their creator and Kami wasn't able to do that.

Goku giving Cell the sensu bean is a dumb move in a strategic sense, but from a story and character perspective, it's... Fine, if a bit frustrating. It's made to fit with the character and give an interesting look at Goku's mindset, leading into his sacrifice. It wasn't just that Goku thought Gohan wanted a shot, it was that he NEEDED Gohan to beat Cell fairly at full strength. Part of Gohan's problem in the cell fight is how much confidence he lacks in himself and, in Goku's eyes, if Gohan didn't fight Cell at full strength that problem would persist and Gohan would never be confident enough to take over for him. GOku's mistake is that he didn't know that another part of the problem is that Gohan didn't want to fight.

Here, the sensu bean isn't only stupid (this entire arc has been about Moro suddenly pulling out life saving abilities at the last second, so just assuming Moro can't try anything is something Goku should understand by this point), but it makes no sense. Goku wants Moro to return to jail. Why does Goku give him a sensu bean? Why would he put Moro in the care of people who can't handle Moro and then make it even worse by having Moro be at full strength on the way back? And what, Goku doesn't think backstabbing bastard Moro won't just wait until he's off planet and then slaughter all the Galactic Patrolmen and hide until he's strong enough to kill Goku? Even for Goku, this decision has no basis that I really have to question what Goku was thinking would happen.

It's also made worst because it just feels pointless. Why have Goku make this needless offer when you could just have Moro find the hand anyway? All this moment does is reinforce this arc being a highlight reel of previous arcs with none of the charm.

I mean thats fine if it bothers you that much but that doesn’t really change my point. I find it disingenuous to call it the worst thing of the entire franchise, let alone the arc. That would mean that he finds it more frustrating than the ending of the Goku Black arc.

As I’ve mentioned, I find Moro 73 as a whole much MUCH worse. His existence as a concept devalued the entire arc up until that point. Goku and Vegeta were Defeated by his Magic not just once, but twice. They trained for months just to counter it. And once Vegeta defeats him, he just steals someone else’s technique. It just makes the entire purpose of Moro and what made him dangerous in the first place entirely irrelevant and makes Goku and Vegeta’s training almost entirely pointless besides a simple powerup. It completely destroyed this arc, and it is a significantly more baffling decision than making Goku give Moro a stupid senzu.

[Kanassa]

I mean thats fine if it bothers you that much but that doesn’t really change my point.

Your point was that those moments were comparable, I was explaining why I disagreed with that.

[Hugo Boss]

I’m digging Susano’o Goku. Somewhat different climax, I liked. Better than just straightforwardly break the cristal, like Beerus would do.

[Matches Malone]

It gets in my nerves when people see something they don't like and instantly use the "GT is better" card, not to defend GT but to insult super.

When fans bring up GT, it's usually to show that despite GT not being very good, Super still manages to somehow be worse. I agree with what you brought up, as generally speaking, GT doesn't have much going for it. However, despite such a low bar being set, Super still manages to constantly come up short. Keep in mind that this is coming from someone who more or less pretended GT didn't exist prior to Super.

[Jinto]

Wait a minute
Big avatar Goku ? Mastered UI ? Grand Priest calling Whis ? Beerus following him ?
I'm sure the next arc will be an intergalactic battle (especially if Beerus take part in it) hence why Goku was given this new power.

[goku the krump dancer]

I’m saving all judgement until the chapter releases.. I will say this though, the only thing that I don’t like about Ki-Construct Goku is that from an esthetic standpoint it gives fans another thing to compare to Naruto, so social media is gonna be full of

“wHo DIdZ it BEyTar?!!1 nArUTO oooor Da oH Geee SOn GOkuuu??! Like-Share-Comment!!!”

[UpFromTheSkies]

Let's assume for a second you're right and they both share the same problems, doesn't that make Super look bad for not improving anything despite there being a 2 decade gap and countless other Shonen between them ?

No, it doesn't. If Super fixed Dragon Ball's "problems" and became a serious story it would feel like fan fiction, not Dragon Ball. Dragon Ball is campy, and it's full of random asspulls like Super Saiyan 3, zenkai boosts, fusion, Ultra Divine Water, or Cell regenerating into his perfect form without 18

[Matches Malone]

No, it doesn't. If Super fixed Dragon Ball's "problems"...

The people who work on modern DB don't know how lucky they are to have a fan base that has 0 expectations for them.

[UpFromTheSkies]

No, it doesn't. If Super fixed Dragon Ball's "problems"...

The people who work on modern DB don't know how lucky they are to have a fan base that has 0 expectations for them.

I expect it to be an extension of the original Dragon Ball and not change the entire nature of the series and it does that.