Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Koitsukai]

Also he never said he'd do it on his own, he said he'd lend a hand, something similar to what Vegeta ended up doing. Plus, he knew what Moro's weakspot was. Totally unrelated to power levels.

I never considered this, but it also makes sense. Good call. But I don’t see how it is totally unrelated to power levels. Vegeta-Oob combo basically revolved around feeding Goku with enough god ki to make his assault effective. Wouldn’t Beerus play at least a substitutive role?

Thanks. I meant Beerus' comment doesn't imply anything regarding how his power compares to Moro or Goku's, because his confidence relied on what he knew, not on how strong he was.
But, yes, if the GP didn't call, then Beerus and Goku would've formed a much better team that would've finished Moro probably on the spot. He would've joined Goku on the offensive unlike Vegeta.

Now that I think about it, if Shin were there, he would've been a pretty good help for the "vegenkidama". Where the hell is he?

[Xeno Goku Black]

False. Tougher doesn’t mean stronger. You need to understand that.

So that's the narrative that's gonna be pushed around here now is it?

[Hugo Boss]

So that's the narrative that's gonna be pushed around here now is it?

Multiple people have lamented how his body is durable. Goku explains how it’s a shame that such amazing fighter doesn’t train, but for some bizarre reason he is not praising his strength.

[Xeno Goku Black]

He wasn't talking about his durability and everyone knows it.

Why are we suddenly gonna pretend that his comment was in reference to Moro's physical density when we know that's just how it goes? We know he was referring to him just being strong or powerful. Why are we pretending that's not what he meant?

[ankokudaishogun]

He wasn't talking about his durability and everyone knows it.

can we have a scan of the frame in Japanese, so we can get the original kanji?
While it's likely a generic wording which can be easily interpreted as just "strong" it MIGHT be specifically addressing his resilience

[Hugo Boss]

He wasn't talking about his durability and everyone knows it.

Why are we suddenly gonna pretend that his comment was in reference to Moro's physical density when we know that's just how it goes? We know he was referring to him just being strong or powerful. Why are we pretending that's not what he meant?

But that’s exactly why he is strong. As durable as his body is, he can amass such a large pool of power. He is just not strong enough to sustain Merus’ power.

[Koitsukai]

Isn't Jiren tough? he can take a beating from UI and outlast it. After that he can even surf through a mix of Gamma Burst Flash and a KHH.
Isn't Broly tough? he sure can take a beating from a blue fusion, including several huge ki attacks.

Well, Moro is tougher. He can definitely beat those two, or somebody actually thinks otherwise?

It's just semantics, the context is clear, Goku talks about how Moro reached that power and that he could be even stronger.

[Omgzord]

The denial in this thread tho..

Moro is stronger than Broly and Jiren. Period.
You can debate Goku vs Gogeta but it doesn't really matter at this point.

A more relative discussion would be Goku vs Merus.
Because I highly doubt Goku is somehow is stronger than the person who basically TEACHED him how to go UI.
Meurs without his angle power was schooling Moro hard, same Moro who bullied Omen Goku.

[Hugo Boss]

Goku and Moro were about even in combat sense, so Merus probably was at least as strong as Goku. In chapter #66 Goku questions if he is as capable as Merus, since he managed to shatter the cristal without the help of anyone, but I think the context was much more favorable to Merus in chapter #64. So, I think the fact that Goku’s energy was being drained compensates.

[Triggered Vegeta]

Goku and Moro were about even in combat sense, so Merus probably was at least as strong as Goku. In chapter #66 Goku questions if he is as capable as Merus, since he managed to shatter the cristal without the help of anyone, but I think the context was much more favorable to Merus in chapter #64. So, I think the fact that Goku’s energy was being drained compensates.

Initially yes, Goku = Moro(Merus) but let's say Moro had full access to that power without consequences? Would he gain advantage over Goku? I don't believe Moro even got a hint of what Merus was capable as an angel, because his body was not ready for that level. I think had he had full control, he'd Outlast and defeat Goku imo.

[Thani]

As far as the narrative indicates, Moro acquired, and used, only the Ultra Instinct that Merus' possessed. Nothing more, nothing less. Apparently.

So UI Moro-73 = UI Goku, with Moro having an apparent advantage because of his magic.

[Koitsukai]

I'm inclined to think that Moro-Merus already accessed all that power, but just couldn't use it for long, thus ending getting trashed easily when his body started to fail him.
I base this on the fact that EarthMoro (with a "body" capable of wielding that power) still couldn't deal damage to Goku, aside of that sucker-punch from below.
He couldn't break the "tie" between them, until he absorbed the whole planet.

[Koitsukai]

So who was the strongest in BoG before all the power ups and all the limits broken? was it still Gohan?

With Gohan starting his path towards his lame RoF iteration but still retaining his ultimate form, and Goku's neverending search for more power, could Goku as a SS3 had already surpassed Ultimate Gohan? BoG Gohan, of course.
The unremarkable performance of Gohan and Roshi comparing Vegeta to Goku(instead of Gohan) when he reached the indisputable 1st place, make me think that, but was it really?

Roshi should be aware Gohan is the strongest, but he could've mentioned Goku because of the known rivalry, not paying much attention to Vegeta being the top dog now.

[Thani]

So who was the strongest in BoG before all the power ups and all the limits broken? was it still Gohan?

With Gohan starting his path towards his lame RoF iteration but still retaining his ultimate form, and Goku's neverending search for more power, could Goku as a SS3 had already surpassed Ultimate Gohan? BoG Gohan, of course.
The unremarkable performance of Gohan and Roshi comparing Vegeta to Goku(instead of Gohan) when he reached the indisputable 1st place, make me think that, but was it really?

Roshi should be aware Gohan is the strongest, but he could've mentioned Goku because of the known rivalry, not paying much attention to Vegeta being the top dog now.

Well, it could only be the case if Goku somehow got stronger than Gotenks and Super Buu just in SSj3. The difference between his Buu Arc self and Gohan's Ultimate state was big. Really, really big. Good old training at Kaioh's place shouldn't net him that much of a power increase.

Then again, Toriyama was never that really consistent, often forgetting things, so it could be that, at the time, in his head, Goku was once again the strongest, with Vegeta still trying to catch up (in other words, the same old status quo).

Because, let's not forget, a "recent" guide stated that Buu obtained power on par with SSj3 Goku when he absorbed Gohan.

[Hugo Boss]

Based on Beerus’ reaction to Vegeta’s power-up, it seems that Goku was the strongest fighter. In Boo arc, even if Goku was stronger than Gohan, SS3 probably would decrease his strength so rapidly that Gohan could manage something.

[HeroR]

Based on Beerus’ reaction to Vegeta’s power-up, it seems that Goku was the strongest fighter. In Boo arc, even if Goku was stronger than Gohan, SS3 probably would decrease his strength so rapidly that Gohan could manage something.

That and all the Ulimate Gohan > Super Saiyan 3 Goku comes from Goku and him saying that Super Buu can kill him and Vegeta even after they freed everyone. The problem, Buu Saga Goku is unreliable since he lied at least twice about his power.

[Gogeta_Blue]

Ultimate Gohan kind of has to be stronger than SSJ3 Goku. By a colossal amount.

At most, SSJ3 is Goku's maximum potential (at that time). Gohan has more potential than Goku. It's been stated numerous times by numerous characters. Ultimate Gohan is the result of his potential being brought to its limits and then "waaayyyy" beyond that.

Ultimate Gohan >>>>>>> Gohan (max potential) > Goku (max potential) >= SSJ3 Goku

[Xeno Goku Black]

Just wondering but when Moro grabbed hold of Goku, he reverted from Ultra Instinct to Base form. Being that Moro absorbs energy, does that mean Moro at that point had the power of himself, Merus and Ultra Instinct Goku all at the same time?

Then also the energy he was stealing from all the planets inhabitants, Vegeta's Super Saiyan Blue Evolved energy and even Goku's Super Saiyan Blue energy.

If Moro had all of that energy and then Goku overpowered him the second time he became Ultra Instinct, wouldn't that put him on a whole other level entirely from the first time he used it?

So it'd be like

Ultra Instinct Goku >> Planet Moro with the power of Merus, Ultra Instinct Goku and everyone else >> Ultra Instinct Goku at the start of the chapter > Planet Moro with the power of Merus

[Thani]

Just wondering but when Moro grabbed hold of Goku, he reverted from Ultra Instinct to Base form. Being that Moro absorbs energy, does that mean Moro at that point had the power of himself, Merus and Ultra Instinct Goku all at the same time?

Then also the energy he was stealing from all the planets inhabitants, Vegeta's Super Saiyan Blue Evolved energy and even Goku's Super Saiyan Blue energy.

If Moro had all of that energy and then Goku overpowered him the second time he became Ultra Instinct, wouldn't that put him on a whole other level entirely from the first time he used it?

So it'd be like

Ultra Instinct Goku >> Planet Moro with the power of Merus, Ultra Instinct Goku and everyone else >> Ultra Instinct Goku at the start of the chapter > Planet Moro with the power of Merus

He was also insane, prone to detonate and using the Earth as a body. We saw prior to that, Goku was cleaving a path right through Moro's many hands - that shouldn't be possible if he could still use UI properly.

I'm guessing that, in his insanity, he couldn't use his power properly anymore, which is what allowed Goku to tangle with him despite the increasing amount of power he was absorbing.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Planet Moro wouldn't be able to use Ultra Instinct but he still could have the general power from it. His fists were still able to somewhat keep up with Goku's speed and the punches were putting some pressure on him.