Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Koitsukai]

Moro couldn't put UI Goku down even when he got UI himself. He got the edge only after merging with the planet so he could use an angel's abilities, and absorbing the energy from everyone, even Goku's... and he almost gets destroyed with all that going on for him. So not even with UI he was enough to take UI Goku.

And Beerus NEVER SAID HE COULD DEFEAT MORO WITHOUT MUCH EFFORT. Where is this coming from? he said he'd help a mastered UI character do it. There's nothing saying or implying Goku was gonna be benched so Beerus could solo Moro in a second. Nothing. On the contrary, it is implied he is going to team up with Goku.

Whis wasted time telling Goku how to do it (Beerus even yells at Krilin, gives directions to Goku...), Beerus could've spent all that precious time dispatching Moro quickly if he was actually able to.

Besides, why do people overlook the fact that Beerus, and Whis for that matter, were also confident(and right on the money) in Goku's abilities to finish the job??? they got a phone call and took off, leaving everything in the hands of Goku, Krilin and Jaco.

Beerus said he'll wrap it up quickly, implying Moro was no threat to him

By lending a hand to Goku. Not on his own.

[OLKv3]

Moro couldn't put UI Goku down even when he got UI himself. He got the edge only after merging with the planet so he could use an angel's abilities, and absorbing the energy from everyone, even Goku's... and he almost gets destroyed with all that going on for him. So not even with UI he was enough to take UI Goku.

And Beerus NEVER SAID HE COULD DEFEAT MORO WITHOUT MUCH EFFORT. Where is this coming from? he said he'd help a mastered UI character do it. There's nothing saying or implying Goku was gonna be benched so Beerus could solo Moro in a second. Nothing. On the contrary, it is implied he is going to team up with Goku.

Whis wasted time telling Goku how to do it (Beerus even yells at Krilin, gives directions to Goku...), Beerus could've spent all that precious time dispatching Moro quickly if he was actually able to.

Besides, why do people overlook the fact that Beerus, and Whis for that matter, were also confident(and right on the money) in Goku's abilities to finish the job??? they got a phone call and took off, leaving everything in the hands of Goku, Krilin and Jaco.

Beerus said he'll wrap it up quickly, implying Moro was no threat to him

By lending a hand to Goku. Not on his own.

That's reaching. he said was he'll lend a hand, and will wrap it up quick. That does not mean "I'm only helping Goku". His words, and mannerisms strongly imply he was stepping in to put down Moro himself.

[Koitsukai]

Beerus said he'll wrap it up quickly, implying Moro was no threat to him

By lending a hand to Goku. Not on his own.

That's reaching. he said was he'll lend a hand, and will wrap it up quick. That does not mean "I'm only helping Goku". His words, and mannerisms strongly imply he was stepping in to put down Moro himself.

Actually that's reaching.

To lend a hand means to help, it does not mean to do it on your own. To give it another interpretation is to reach.
And it would've been wrapped quickly because UI had most of it covered. He wasn't being stomped, hardly touched.

And again, if that were the case, then why didn't he do it? they didn't leave immediately, they had time left for Whis to defend himself from Moro, explain things to Goku, even give him a pep talk when he asked questions. Beerus even had time to tell Goku something about food.

The context supports that he was going to, like he said, lend a hand to Goku. Not take matters from Goku's hands.

[BWri]

Moro couldn't put UI Goku down even when he got UI himself. He got the edge only after merging with the planet so he could use an angel's abilities, and absorbing the energy from everyone, even Goku's... and he almost gets destroyed with all that going on for him. So not even with UI he was enough to take UI Goku.

Yes, but he still defeated Goku. My point to the other poster was that UI isn't unbeatable as was stated in the previous panels. Moro literally just beat it.

Nothing. On the contrary, it is implied he is going to team up with Goku.

What he said could imply a teamup or him "taking the controller" and defeating the boss for Goku and the others. I sometimes do that when I notice a child getting frustrated to the point of tears in a videogame. I'll say, "let me lend you a hand right quick" and get through the difficult section for them. It's not clear cut. I see it my way because Beerus has yet to team up with anyone for anything or even suggest anything like that. As a matter of fact, during the Exhibition match it's said that all the other GoDs hate him and as he fends off all of their attacks by himself he calls them losers and berates them for not being ale to do anything on their own. His idea of teamwork is using his twin brother as bait during the exhibition. All that to say, teamwork doesn't seem to be high on Beerus' list of priorities or skills.

Whis wasted time telling Goku how to do it (Beerus even yells at Krilin, gives directions to Goku...), Beerus could've spent all that precious time dispatching Moro quickly if he was actually able to.

I'm not sure where you're going with this. He was already leaving at that point. He literally told them to handle the problem themselves as he was freaking out over the Grand Priest's summons.

Besides, why do people overlook the fact that Beerus, and Whis for that matter, were also confident(and right on the money) in Goku's abilities to finish the job???

Because Goku, as they left him, did not finish the job even with Whis' instructions. He was utterly defeated, even while using the unbeatable Ultra Instinct. It took the intervention of Vegeta, Piccolo, Jaco, all the supporting cast, Daishinkan, and Uub of all people to help give Goku the win. Beerus himself was going to step in prior to all that so I don't see your point here. If any of those other characters did not contribute, the galaxy would be toast.

[BWri]

I don't disagree with any of this, but Beerus seemed confident that his "lending a hand" would put an end to things in no time at all.

Yes, but those are the key words. The dialogue doesn't imply that Beerus would put an end to the fight quickly, it implies that Beerus and Goku would do so together.

I said the following in my response to Koitsukai but you both said the same thing: What he said could imply a teamup or it could imply him "taking the controller" and defeating the boss for Goku and the others. I sometimes do that when I notice a child getting frustrated to the point of tears in a videogame. I'll say, "let me lend you a hand right quick" and get through the difficult section for them. It's not clear cut. I see it my way because Beerus has yet to team up with anyone for anything or even suggest anything like that. As a matter of fact, during the Exhibition match it's said that all the other GoDs hate him and as he fends off all of their attacks by himself he calls them losers and berates them for not being ale to do anything on their own. His idea of teamwork is using his twin brother as bait during the exhibition. All that to say, teamwork doesn't seem to be high on Beerus' list of priorities or skills.

[The Undying]

I said the following in my response to Koitsukai but you both said the same thing: What he said could imply a teamup or it could imply him "taking the controller" and defeating the boss for Goku and the others.

Not "could", it does imply that. We're not talking about informal English colloquialisms, we're discussing a Japanese story where phrases about teamwork often directly mean what they're suggested to mean. A "could" wouldn't substantively contribute to the argument anyway.

You guys are free to believe that Beerus is the stronger of the two if you're so inclined. This isn't an attempt to back any particular side. I'm just telling you there's no strong evidence for it.

All that to say, teamwork doesn't seem to be high on Beerus' list of priorities or skills.

Exactly. That's why he was embarrassed about having to do just that.

[Koitsukai]

1)

Moro couldn't put UI Goku down even when he got UI himself. He got the edge only after merging with the planet so he could use an angel's abilities, and absorbing the energy from everyone, even Goku's... and he almost gets destroyed with all that going on for him. So not even with UI he was enough to take UI Goku.

Yes, but he still defeated Goku. My point to the other poster was that UI isn't unbeatable as was stated in the previous panels. Moro literally just beat it.

Nothing. On the contrary, it is implied he is going to team up with Goku.

What he said could imply a teamup or him "taking the controller" and defeating the boss for Goku and the others. I sometimes do that when I notice a child getting frustrated to the point of tears in a videogame. I'll say, "let me lend you a hand right quick" and get through the difficult section for them. It's not clear cut. I see it my way because Beerus has yet to team up with anyone for anything or even suggest anything like that. As a matter of fact, during the Exhibition match it's said that all the other GoDs hate him and as he fends off all of their attacks by himself he calls them losers and berates them for not being ale to do anything on their own. His idea of teamwork is using his twin brother as bait during the exhibition. All that to say, teamwork doesn't seem to be high on Beerus' list of priorities or skills.

2)

Whis wasted time telling Goku how to do it (Beerus even yells at Krilin, gives directions to Goku...), Beerus could've spent all that precious time dispatching Moro quickly if he was actually able to.

I'm not sure where you're going with this. He was already leaving at that point. He literally told them to handle the problem themselves as he was freaking out over the Grand Priest's summons.

3)

Besides, why do people overlook the fact that Beerus, and Whis for that matter, were also confident(and right on the money) in Goku's abilities to finish the job???

Because Goku, as they left him, did not finish the job even with Whis' instructions. He was utterly defeated, even while using the unbeatable Ultra Instinct. It took the intervention of Vegeta, Piccolo, Jaco, all the supporting cast, Daishinkan, and Uub of all people to help give Goku the win. Beerus himself was going to step in prior to all that so I don't see your point here. If any of those other characters did not contribute, the galaxy would be toast.

1)Moro did it only when he got UI himself and a bunch of other energy including Goku's. So you can't say UI is not unbeatable because someone else with UI(and more) beat it.

2) Because if Beerus happened to be that strong, that he could take out Moro quickly, then he would've done it in the time wasted by Whis when talking to Goku. He would've flown towards Moro and do it while Whis was pep talking Goku. That's where I'm going, that he had time to do what people claim he could do, but didn't, they didn't leave immediately, Beerus even had time to leave Goku one last message.

3) but he did it, didn't he? Beerus left Goku in charge, if you were to ask Beerus, based on his actions his believes Goku can do it without his help. My point is you don't need to be stronger than UI (like people say Beerus is) to help Goku beat Moro.

People also forget Beerus didn't want any other GoD to know about his lending hand. What would be so wrong, so embarrasing about a GoD killing a foe? doing his job quickly? nothing. But... wouldn't it be something the other GoDs would laugh at if he had to team up with someone else? that's what his comment about doing it quickly before, I don't know, Quitela or Champa find out was all about. And this is not reaching, this was all in the chapter.

This all ties perfectly with the comments on where Beerus might stand compared to former foes and fusions.

[Miracles]

Yes, and that means that Broly and Vegito Blue from the Future Trunks Arc are also still much stronger than current UI Goku, Moro Merus, Merus, and Jiren. Since they (Fusion level characters!) are the only ones to have been directly compared to the mighty Lord Beerus. The writers aren’t stupid you know. They know exactly what they’re doing. This is all going according to plan.

Beerus = Pre ToP Blue Fusion = SSJ Full Power Broly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Current UI Goku.

Truth is, Only Quitela was unequivocally; directly compared to Beerus. Broly and FT Vegetto had guess words that are subject to change. Their contrasts were not stated as facts, having no grounds of true comparison.

Therefore, falsely claiming Broly and FT Vegetto are stronger than Moro, Merus and UI Goku goes against canon. Moro was just stated to be the toughest opponent for Goku to face without training his "strength". I know people want to dance around the fact that the word tough was used instead of strong. While purposely ignoring the context of tough describing Moro's UNTRAINED strength. Believing Moro to be weaker than Broly also goes against Toriyama's outright statement of the next enemy > last formula as well.

I understand where the confusion comes from, people wrongly read that Vegetto and Broly's assumed comparison [maybe/probably] to Beerus [the benchmark] was FACTUAL, when in reality it was not. So they wrongly assume FT Vegetto and Broly are being carried along with Beerus. All the while contradicting Toriyama's story formula and Moro's recent strongest title.

The fact that these characters (who ARE Blue Fusion level for certain!) have been compared in any way to Lord Beerus says enough! Because even if these statements turn out to be false, the fact that these statements regarding them exist.. says something!

No such statements exist for single UI Goku and all the beings he fought.

That SAYS something right there.

But you are assuming these to be false because you have a very strong bias towards the idea of “new enemy >>>> previous enemy”, and while I, too, share some of that bias with you, you have to understand...

This rule does NOT need to apply to Fusions..

Hence why Broly and Vegito Blue can still be stronger than UI Goku, Moro Merus, and Merus from 1 and 2 Arcs earlier!

Also, the statement saying “probably” was made IN REGARDS to the idea that Vegito and Broly are stronger than Beerus..

Meaning that it’s not certain that they are “stronger” than him.. NOT that it’s not certain that they are on his level! Because they are!

If it’s even questionable that they are “stronger” than Lord Beerus, then it is absolutely CERTAIN that they are either on his level, or at the very least CLOSE to him in power..

Goku thought Cell was "probably" just "a bit" stronger than himself. Assuming he was on Cell's level with "probably" as well. Come to find out Cell would of stomped Goku with his full power. It's the same situation here, "probably's" do not put one on the level or stronger to the compared, cause the entire premise is based on guess work. The same goes for FT Vegetto's ambiguous line. Fusions don't get a pass yet. Now add the fact that Broly was already surpassed by Moro. Goku is stronger than Moro, yet has not said/shown to be even a rival to Beerus YET.

[pepd]

About Beerus, remember that he has the Hakai; that is how he dealt with Zamasu and it didn't seem like he was going to fight Moro for the sport. His basic UI should be more than enough to land a Hakai, he doesn't have to be above Moro or UI Gokū to do it.

[GodVegetto91]

Man the cope in this thread is just unreal...

All the evidence points towards Vegito, Broly and Beerus to be stronger than any version of UI Goku thus far. Yet people ignore it because it doesn’t fit with their preconceived biases and beliefs.

When has Goku ever been compared to Beerus after the ToP?? Never...

Has Vegito? Yes.

Has Broly? Yes.

Has Jiren? No.

Has Merus or any of the Moro’s ever been compared to Beerus? No..

So why do you think Goku is stronger than his own FUSION???

The fact is, both Vegito and Gogeta in their Base forms have been shown to be superior to Goku and Vegeta in their Blue forms based on pure feats. If such a Saiyan who’s already this strong in Base, goes SSJ Blue himself, then that means he’d be many dozens of thousands of times stronger than Blue Goku and Vegeta at the least..

Is UI Goku hundreds of thousands of times greater than SSJ Blue Goku and Vegeta???!

I highly doubt it!

I’d say only 1000x greater AT THE MOST (And that’s if we’re lucky!) I don’t even think that is the case, but I sure do wish it was!

A 1000x multiplier for UI over SSJ Blue would be perfect! But somehow I’m afraid not even that would be the case, given how the writers always have a tendency to go with lower numbers, just take a look at Toriyama’s stupid interview where he has SSJ1 only 10x over Base on Namek.. Thus revealing to the world that he literally doesn’t think things through at all! It’s almost criminal.

The fact is that Fusions are incredibly OP.

SSJ Blue Vegito/Gogeta are literally SSJ Blue Goku multiplied by SSJ Blue Goku.! It’s the biggest multiplier you can possibly get in this current day and age.

[Triggered Vegeta]

Man the cope in this thread is just unreal...

All the evidence points towards Vegito, Broly and Beerus to be stronger than any version of UI Goku thus far. Yet people ignore it because it doesn’t fit with their preconceived biases and beliefs.

When has Goku ever been compared to Beerus after the ToP?? Never...

Has Vegito? Yes.

Has Broly? Yes.

Has Jiren? No.

Has Merus or any of the Moro’s ever been compared to Beerus? No..

So why do you think Goku is stronger than his own FUSION???

The fact is, both Vegito and Gogeta in their Base forms have been shown to be superior to Goku and Vegeta in their Blue forms based on pure feats. If such a Saiyan who’s already this strong in Base, goes SSJ Blue himself, then that means he’d be many dozens of thousands of times stronger than Blue Goku and Vegeta at the least..

Is UI Goku hundreds of thousands of times greater than SSJ Blue Goku and Vegeta???!

I highly doubt it!

I’d say only 1000x greater AT THE MOST (And that’s if we’re lucky!) I don’t even think that is the case, but I sure do wish it was!

A 1000x multiplier for UI over SSJ Blue would be perfect! But somehow I’m afraid not even that would be the case, given how the writers always have a tendency to go with lower numbers, just take a look at Toriyama’s stupid interview where he has SSJ1 only 10x over Base on Namek.. Thus revealing to the world that he literally doesn’t think things through at all! It’s almost criminal.

The fact is that Fusions are incredibly OP.

SSJ Blue Vegito/Gogeta are literally SSJ Blue Goku multiplied by SSJ Blue Goku.! It’s the biggest multiplier you can possibly get in this current day and age.

SSB Gogeta at most is like 50% stronger than Broly going by his performance. Fusion boost is nowhere near dozens of thousands of times stronger than SSB otherwise he'd one hit Broly. We don't know what kind of boost UI & Fusion give. Both are similar boosts imo. 1,000x boost is more reasonable or a bit more imo. Even if somehow Gogeta exceeds Goku, he isn't mountains of times stronger. Gogeta is high God tier just like Beerus, Broly, Goku & Moro(Merus). All of these guys should be in the same tier. Small gaps. Enough to defeat, but not enough to zero diff one another.

[Hugo Boss]

All the evidence points towards Vegito, Broly and Beerus to be stronger than any version of UI Goku thus far. Yet people ignore it because it doesn’t fit with their preconceived biases and beliefs.

Not that there is any theme to move on to, but can we stop repeating this very argument over and over? Where exactly you got the idea that Blue Fusion can’t be surpassed by Ultra Instinct? Why Ultra Instinct has to multiply his ability by 1,000 times and Blue Fusion by 1,000,000,000,000.. Seems to be a lot of conjecture from your part, and not actually something substantial. Why it is so difficult to understand that Goku said Moro is the most formidable opponent he has fought so far?

[GodVegetto91]

Man the cope in this thread is just unreal...

All the evidence points towards Vegito, Broly and Beerus to be stronger than any version of UI Goku thus far. Yet people ignore it because it doesn’t fit with their preconceived biases and beliefs.

When has Goku ever been compared to Beerus after the ToP?? Never...

Has Vegito? Yes.

Has Broly? Yes.

Has Jiren? No.

Has Merus or any of the Moro’s ever been compared to Beerus? No..

So why do you think Goku is stronger than his own FUSION???

The fact is, both Vegito and Gogeta in their Base forms have been shown to be superior to Goku and Vegeta in their Blue forms based on pure feats. If such a Saiyan who’s already this strong in Base, goes SSJ Blue himself, then that means he’d be many dozens of thousands of times stronger than Blue Goku and Vegeta at the least..

Is UI Goku hundreds of thousands of times greater than SSJ Blue Goku and Vegeta???!

I highly doubt it!

I’d say only 1000x greater AT THE MOST (And that’s if we’re lucky!) I don’t even think that is the case, but I sure do wish it was!

A 1000x multiplier for UI over SSJ Blue would be perfect! But somehow I’m afraid not even that would be the case, given how the writers always have a tendency to go with lower numbers, just take a look at Toriyama’s stupid interview where he has SSJ1 only 10x over Base on Namek.. Thus revealing to the world that he literally doesn’t think things through at all! It’s almost criminal.

The fact is that Fusions are incredibly OP.

SSJ Blue Vegito/Gogeta are literally SSJ Blue Goku multiplied by SSJ Blue Goku.! It’s the biggest multiplier you can possibly get in this current day and age.

SSB Gogeta at most is like 50% stronger than Broly going by his performance. Fusion boost is nowhere near dozens of thousands of times stronger than SSB otherwise he'd one hit Broly. We don't know what kind of boost UI & Fusion give. Both are similar boosts imo. 1,000x boost is more reasonable or a bit more imo. Even if somehow Gogeta exceeds Goku, he isn't mountains of times stronger. Gogeta is high God tier just like Beerus, Broly, Goku & Moro(Merus). All of these guys should be in the same tier. Small gaps. Enough to defeat, but not enough to zero diff one another.

Headcanon.. 100% your own assumption and not grounded in objective fact. You’re taking your own personal subjective opinion and presenting it as objective fact. You can’t do such a thing. It’s highly rude.

And perhaps most importantly..

You’re forgetting what this actually means!

It means.. That Broly is simply THAT strong. It means.. That Broly’s SSJ Full Power form is ALSO thousands of times greater than his regular SSJ1 form!

Both Gogeta Blue and SSJ FP Broly are thousands of times stronger then their SSJ1 forms.

You’ve completely overlooked the idea and possibility that it simply means that Broly is just THAT strong in his most powerful form..

[GodVegetto91]

All the evidence points towards Vegito, Broly and Beerus to be stronger than any version of UI Goku thus far. Yet people ignore it because it doesn’t fit with their preconceived biases and beliefs.

Not that there is any theme to move on to, but can we stop repeating this very argument over and over? Where exactly you got the idea that Blue Fusion can’t be surpassed by Ultra Instinct? Why Ultra Instinct has to multiply his ability by 1,000 times and Blue Fusion by 1,000,000,000,000.. Seems to be a lot of conjecture from your part, and not actually something substantial. Why it is so difficult to understand that Goku said Moro is the most formidable opponent he has fought so far?

1) It’s not your job to tell me what I can and cannot do or say on this forum. It’s the mods’ job. So please, don’t do this ever again. 2) I never said that Blue Fusion is 1 trillion times stronger than SSJ Blue Goku.. Where are you getting that from???! I think it’s never going to be more than a couple of million times at best! Big difference! This is totally unfair and all it proves is that your only intent is to put me in a bad light, so you can further justify your attack on me. 3) Goku never said Moro was the strongest. Just that he was the toughest since he kept coming back for more, no matter what. But that’s ofcourse Toyotaro’s doing. The writers, the plot!

[Triggered Vegeta]

Man the cope in this thread is just unreal...

All the evidence points towards Vegito, Broly and Beerus to be stronger than any version of UI Goku thus far. Yet people ignore it because it doesn’t fit with their preconceived biases and beliefs.

When has Goku ever been compared to Beerus after the ToP?? Never...

Has Vegito? Yes.

Has Broly? Yes.

Has Jiren? No.

Has Merus or any of the Moro’s ever been compared to Beerus? No..

So why do you think Goku is stronger than his own FUSION???

The fact is, both Vegito and Gogeta in their Base forms have been shown to be superior to Goku and Vegeta in their Blue forms based on pure feats. If such a Saiyan who’s already this strong in Base, goes SSJ Blue himself, then that means he’d be many dozens of thousands of times stronger than Blue Goku and Vegeta at the least..

Is UI Goku hundreds of thousands of times greater than SSJ Blue Goku and Vegeta???!

I highly doubt it!

I’d say only 1000x greater AT THE MOST (And that’s if we’re lucky!) I don’t even think that is the case, but I sure do wish it was!

A 1000x multiplier for UI over SSJ Blue would be perfect! But somehow I’m afraid not even that would be the case, given how the writers always have a tendency to go with lower numbers, just take a look at Toriyama’s stupid interview where he has SSJ1 only 10x over Base on Namek.. Thus revealing to the world that he literally doesn’t think things through at all! It’s almost criminal.

The fact is that Fusions are incredibly OP.

SSJ Blue Vegito/Gogeta are literally SSJ Blue Goku multiplied by SSJ Blue Goku.! It’s the biggest multiplier you can possibly get in this current day and age.

SSB Gogeta at most is like 50% stronger than Broly going by his performance. Fusion boost is nowhere near dozens of thousands of times stronger than SSB otherwise he'd one hit Broly. We don't know what kind of boost UI & Fusion give. Both are similar boosts imo. 1,000x boost is more reasonable or a bit more imo. Even if somehow Gogeta exceeds Goku, he isn't mountains of times stronger. Gogeta is high God tier just like Beerus, Broly, Goku & Moro(Merus). All of these guys should be in the same tier. Small gaps. Enough to defeat, but not enough to zero diff one another.

Headcanon.. 100% your own assumption and not grounded in objective fact. You’re taking your own personal subjective opinion and presenting it as objective fact. You can’t do such a thing. It’s highly rude.

And perhaps most importantly..

You’re forgetting what this actually means!

It means.. That Broly is simply THAT strong. It means.. That Broly’s SSJ Full Power form is ALSO thousands of times greater than his regular SSJ1 form!

Both Gogeta Blue and SSJ FP Broly are thousands of times stronger then their SSJ1 forms.

You’ve completely overlooked the idea and possibility that it simply means that Broly is just THAT strong in his most powerful form..

Nowhere in that fight did Gogeta display he could tank shots like Goku did Moro. Always evaded those attacks. If the gap was so large, Gogeta would just go right through them.

50% is acceptable 1.25x at most imo. Gogeta never showed to be significantly above Broly like SS2 Gohan vs Cell. The gap is way less than 2x otherwise Gogeta wouldn't have needed to use all those fancy mega moves on him that still failed.

The gaps don't have to be as outrageous as you put them. Also how can UI be barely 1,000x boost... But somehow Gogeta boost is thousands of times? Makes zero sense. These guys can't be world's apart.

[Hugo Boss]

All the evidence points towards Vegito, Broly and Beerus to be stronger than any version of UI Goku thus far. Yet people ignore it because it doesn’t fit with their preconceived biases and beliefs.

Not that there is any theme to move on to, but can we stop repeating this very argument over and over? Where exactly you got the idea that Blue Fusion can’t be surpassed by Ultra Instinct? Why Ultra Instinct has to multiply his ability by 1,000 times and Blue Fusion by 1,000,000,000,000.. Seems to be a lot of conjecture from your part, and not actually something substantial. Why it is so difficult to understand that Goku said Moro is the most formidable opponent he has fought so far?

1) It’s not your job to tell me what I can and cannot do or say on this forum. It’s the mods’ job. So please, don’t do this ever again. 2) I never said that Blue Fusion is 1 trillion times stronger than SSJ Blue Goku.. Where are you getting that from???! I think it’s never going to be more than a couple of million times at best! Big difference! This is totally unfair and all it proves is that your only intent is to put me in a bad light, so you can further justify your attack on me. 3) Goku never said Moro was the strongest. Just that he was the toughest since he kept coming back for more, no matter what. But that’s ofcourse Toyotaro’s doing. The writers, the plot!

Anyone on this forum can address the lack of substance on your posts, not only the moderation team.
If anything, you are putting yourself on an odd position, since you are dismissing anyone who doesn’t follow your line of thought, but the other way around is not fair? So... Blue Fusion is 1,000,000 times greater than Blue and for some reason Ultra Instinct can’t be greater than that? Why?

In case you missed, have a good read on this thread. Search for tough.

[Koitsukai]

Man the cope in this thread is just unreal...

All the evidence points towards Vegito, Broly and Beerus to be stronger than any version of UI Goku thus far. Yet people ignore it because it doesn’t fit with their preconceived biases and beliefs.


I’d say only 1000x greater AT THE MOST (And that’s if we’re lucky!) I don’t even think that is the case, but I sure do wish it was!

A 1000x multiplier for UI over SSJ Blue would be perfect! But somehow I’m afraid not even that would be the case, given how the writers always have a tendency to go with lower numbers, just take a look at Toriyama’s stupid interview where he has SSJ1 only 10x over Base on Namek.. Thus revealing to the world that he literally doesn’t think things through at all! It’s almost criminal.

So... you ignore something you acknowledge (that the writers do not use your multipliers like AT ALL), to "fit with your preconceived biases and beliefs". Do you not see this? for real?

Your argument lies in the numbers, in the multipliers, you can't believe Goku is stronger than Gogeta because your numbers(and I say 'yours' because the show does not provide numbers) don't add up, but then you admit the writers and Toriyama himself do not use these numbers when constructing the story.

[GodVegetto91]

SSB Gogeta at most is like 50% stronger than Broly going by his performance. Fusion boost is nowhere near dozens of thousands of times stronger than SSB otherwise he'd one hit Broly. We don't know what kind of boost UI & Fusion give. Both are similar boosts imo. 1,000x boost is more reasonable or a bit more imo. Even if somehow Gogeta exceeds Goku, he isn't mountains of times stronger. Gogeta is high God tier just like Beerus, Broly, Goku & Moro(Merus). All of these guys should be in the same tier. Small gaps. Enough to defeat, but not enough to zero diff one another.

Headcanon.. 100% your own assumption and not grounded in objective fact. You’re taking your own personal subjective opinion and presenting it as objective fact. You can’t do such a thing. It’s highly rude.

And perhaps most importantly..

You’re forgetting what this actually means!

It means.. That Broly is simply THAT strong. It means.. That Broly’s SSJ Full Power form is ALSO thousands of times greater than his regular SSJ1 form!

Both Gogeta Blue and SSJ FP Broly are thousands of times stronger then their SSJ1 forms.

You’ve completely overlooked the idea and possibility that it simply means that Broly is just THAT strong in his most powerful form..

Nowhere in that fight did Gogeta display he could tank shots like Goku did Moro. Always evaded those attacks. If the gap was so large, Gogeta would just go right through them.

50% is acceptable 1.25x at most imo. Gogeta never showed to be significantly above Broly like SS2 Gohan vs Cell. The gap is way less than 2x otherwise Gogeta wouldn't have needed to use all those fancy mega moves on him that still failed.

The gaps don't have to be as outrageous as you put them. Also how can UI be barely 1,000x boost... But somehow Gogeta boost is thousands of times? Makes zero sense. These guys can't be world's apart.

I wasn’t talking about that.. Why are you ignoring my point? Please read.

[Triggered Vegeta]

GodVegetto91 my bad went on rant for a little, I get what you mean.

[FishermanJohnWest]

Truth is, Only Quitela was unequivocally; directly compared to Beerus. Broly and FT Vegetto had guess words that are subject to change. Their contrasts were not stated as facts, having no grounds of true comparison.

Therefore, falsely claiming Broly and FT Vegetto are stronger than Moro, Merus and UI Goku goes against canon. Moro was just stated to be the toughest opponent for Goku to face without training his "strength". I know people want to dance around the fact that the word tough was used instead of strong. While purposely ignoring the context of tough describing Moro's UNTRAINED strength. Believing Moro to be weaker than Broly also goes against Toriyama's outright statement of the next enemy > last formula as well.

I understand where the confusion comes from, people wrongly read that Vegetto and Broly's assumed comparison [maybe/probably] to Beerus [the benchmark] was FACTUAL, when in reality it was not. So they wrongly assume FT Vegetto and Broly are being carried along with Beerus. All the while contradicting Toriyama's story formula and Moro's recent strongest title.

The fact that these characters (who ARE Blue Fusion level for certain!) have been compared in any way to Lord Beerus says enough! Because even if these statements turn out to be false, the fact that these statements regarding them exist.. says something!

No such statements exist for single UI Goku and all the beings he fought.

That SAYS something right there.

But you are assuming these to be false because you have a very strong bias towards the idea of “new enemy >>>> previous enemy”, and while I, too, share some of that bias with you, you have to understand...

This rule does NOT need to apply to Fusions..

Hence why Broly and Vegito Blue can still be stronger than UI Goku, Moro Merus, and Merus from 1 and 2 Arcs earlier!

Also, the statement saying “probably” was made IN REGARDS to the idea that Vegito and Broly are stronger than Beerus..

Meaning that it’s not certain that they are “stronger” than him.. NOT that it’s not certain that they are on his level! Because they are!

If it’s even questionable that they are “stronger” than Lord Beerus, then it is absolutely CERTAIN that they are either on his level, or at the very least CLOSE to him in power..

Goku thought Cell was "probably" just "a bit" stronger than himself. Assuming he was on Cell's level with "probably" as well. Come to find out Cell would of stomped Goku with his full power. It's the same situation here, "probably's" do not put one on the level or stronger to the compared, cause the entire premise is based on guess work. The same goes for FT Vegetto's ambiguous line. Fusions don't get a pass yet. Now add the fact that Broly was already surpassed by Moro. Goku is stronger than Moro, yet has not said/shown to be even a rival to Beerus YET.

Nonsense as usual superstar, he was talking about Cell current power at that moment, and said that Cell current power was higher then his own, and he was right. He saw Beerus go all out, meaning the same judgement he is making on Cell applies similar to Broly, saw both go all out, says Broly is probably stronger.

Here is where you failed, I told you before, PROBABLY stronger means Broly is at least equal, same how Goku and Cell are fighting equally with each other. And Moro never surpassed Broly, tough isn't the same as strong