Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 50 - DBZ 63, TVS1, 64

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Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 50 - DBZ 63, TVS1, 64

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:50 pm

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Hello, ladies, gentlemen, and everyone between and beyond, and welcome to week 50 of the first Dragon Ball rewatch of the decade.
We're doing five episodes a week, and we'll be watching every single episode of Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, and Dragon Ball GT. All 508 episodes. Plus the TV specials and the movies.
I encourage you all to watch in Japanese with subtitles, especially if you have never done so before, but watch along in whichever way brings you the most joy.

If any of you are following along watching Kai, I suggest you watch episode 29 and the Z Bardock special this week.

Previous thread: Week 49 (DBZ 58-62)
Next thread: Week 51 (DBZ 65-69)

Anyway, without further ado...

Episode 216 - Is This Some Super-Magic or Just a Trick?! Mr. Gurd is Angry! (DBZ episode 63)
Dub title: Guldo's Mind Binds
Originally aired 26th of September 1990

Kai equivalent: Episode 29 - The Special-Squad’s Frontline Man! Break Gurd’s Spell (Second half)
Edited dub equivalent: Episode 50 - Time Tricks and Body Binds

Written by: Hiroshi Toda
Episode director: Kazuhito Kikuchi
Animation supervisor: Tomekichi Takeuchi


The battle between Gohan, Kuririn, and Gurd begins. Though Gurd’s battle power isn’t much, he has the psychic power to stop time! However, Gohan and Kuririn’s speed far surpass his imagination. Cornered, Gurd uses a paralyzing technique to seal up the pair’s movement. Gurd tries to skewer them, but at that moment, Vegeta severs Gurd’s head with a single blow!

Anime-only/filler content: Butta, Jheese, and Reacoom making a bet on the outcome of Ghurd's fight with Gohan and Kuririn, Bulma calling Roshi, Ghurd throwing rocks at Gohan and Kuririn and punching them, Piccolo and Kaio sensing Gohan and Kuririn's peril, the remaining Ginyus attempting to do a pose and failing.

TV Special 1 - A Final, Solitary Battle: The Father of Z-Warrior Kakarrot, Who Challenged Freeza
Dub title: Bardock - The Father of Goku
Originally aired 17th of October 1990

Written by: Takao Koyama & Katsuyuki Sumisawa
Director: Mitsuo Hashimoto
Animation supervisor: Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru


On Planet Vegeta, a Saiyan named Kakarrot is born. Meanwhile, Kakarrot’s father Bardock is busy conquering Planet Kanassa together with his team of fellow Saiyans. Though they succeed in wiping out almost all of the planet’s inhabitants, Bardock is attacked by a single survivor, Tohro. To avenge his race, Tohro curses Bardock with the ability to see the future, so that he may be plagued by visions of the Saiyans’ own forthcoming annihilation. While Bardock stays on Planet Vegeta to recover from this attack, his team goes on to Planet Meat, their next target. Bardock finally makes a full recovery, and goes to see his newborn son. Disgusted by his son’s low battle power, Bardock judges him to be nothing more than scum. And with that, he heads off to Planet Meat to join his comrades…

Episode 217 - The Savage Recoom! The Bad, Strong, and Outrageous Guy (DBZ episode 64)
Dub title: Recoome Unleashed
Originally aired 24th of October 1990

Kai equivalent: Episode 30 - The Hellish Reacoom! Keep Me Entertained, Vegeta-chan (First half)
Edited dub equivalent: Episode 51 - The Relentless Recoome (original broadcast) / No Refuge From Recoome (reairings and home video)

Written by: Hiroshi Toda
Episode director: Minoru Okazaki
Animation supervisor: Masaki Satō


Going all out at full power, Vegeta preemptively attacks Recoom! Recoom takes hardly any damage from even an attack of 20,000… Instead, Vegeta is worn ragged by Recoom’s attacks. As Recoom tries to finish Vegeta off with his special attack, the Eraser Gun, Gohan and Kuririn attack him and save Vegeta. But Recoom’s single blow KO’s Kuririn. Gohan faces Recoom on his own, but…

Anime-only/filler content: Ginyu juggling the Dragon Balls and nearly dropping one into the ocean, a scene of Freeza on his ship talking about destroying Namek.

-

Interesting trivia:
  • At this point in time in the manga, Piccolo is revived and goes to Namek, the Grand Elder (and Porunga) dies, Piccolo absorbs Nail, and Freeza goes to form 2 and stabs Kuririn.
  • Famously, the finale of the Burdock Special was used for the opening of Kai Episode 1, showing Bardock's brief confrontation with Freeza and his final vision of Goku as he dies, and the sequence ends with Gohan holding Goku up from the end of the special. While this is a fun inclusion for long-time fans, for first-time viewers coming from the original Dragon Ball (or even those who skipped that, for some incomprehensible reason), it spoils that Goku is an alien and that Freeza was the one who destroyed planet Vegeta, the latter of which wouldn't be revealed to the audience until Episode 22 and makes Raditz look incredibly gullible.
  • When Dragon Ball Minus was adapted as part of the opening to the Super Broly movie, a single shot shows Bardock being engulfed in Freeza's attack. This is a nod to the ending of the Bardock special, and lends credence to the idea that Kai specifically is canon to Super; as explained above, Bardock's demise is the only part of the special depicted in Kai.
  • Episode of Bardock would provide a sequel of sorts to the Bardock special. I refuse to discuss this OVA any further than this acknowledgement that it exists.
  • Funimation's dub of the Bardock special is somewhat infamous for its inaccuracy. To sum it up in brief, the changes run the gamut from most scenes being completely rewritten to hold no real resemblance to what was said in Japanese, to the overall plot being rather significantly changed (whereas in the Japanese version, the Kanassans can see the future and Freeza's motivations for conquering the planet are left unsaid, in the Funimation dub, Freeza conquered the planet because he wanted to learn the secret behind the Kanassans' power: The ability to read minds. And somehow Bardock is able to use this mind-reading power to see the future...).
  • Despite Roshi explaining that Goku was a chaotic little bugger when he first came to earth, the end of the Bardock special depicts him as being a joyful child when Grandpa Gohan finds him.
  • The official subtitles have been somewhat inconsistent on how to render Bardock's name; the earliest DVD releases consistently use Burdock, but later releases of the special change this to Bardock, however other movies continue to retain the Burdock spelling despite the special changing it.
  • The Bardock special is the first time music from DBZ movie 3 would be heard in the TV anime.
  • Akira Toriyama said in an interview in Daizenshuu 6 from the 5th of October 1995 that, of all the movies and TV specials, the Bardock special was his favourite; "It’s quite dramatic, and the kind of story 'I absolutely wouldn’t draw' if it were me. It was like watching a different kind of Dragon Ball in a good way, so I thought it was nice."
  • Edits in the original dub:
    • Uncut episode 63/edited episode 50 features some kind of added video effect when Gohan and Kuririn are frozen, and Ghurd's head being chopped off was censored so it looks like Vegeta basically kicked him into The Next Dimension. Ghurd's body is also painted out in some shots from uncut episode 63 that were used in edited episode 51.
    • In uncut episode 64/edited episode 51, Funimation painted over Reacoom's butt in all relevant shots.
  • On its original broadcast, edited episode 51 was entitled "The Relentless Recoome", but for unknown reasons, all subsequent versions of this episode inculding all reairings and home video, changed the title to No Refuge From Recoome. No one is sure why, and it's confused people writing episode guides since the change happened back in the '90s.
  • Edited episode 51 once again brings the edited dub out of alignment with the uncut series episodes, for the very last time. (Sort of)
  • There are 26 redraws in Kai episode 29.
  • Additional trivia for TV special 1 available here.
Episode summaries, airdates, and titles courtesy of Kanzenshuu's episode guide. Dragon Ball logo provided by KBABZ. Additional trivia courtesy of Chris Psaros's DBZ Uncensored guide.
Last edited by Robo4900 on Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:28 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 50 - DBZ 63, TVS1, 64 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:59 pm

And now we have the beginning of Vegeta as a reluctant ally/anti-hero from here on he’s still nowhere near being a good guy but he’s now technically part of the Z team instead of a out and out villain.

Making it look like Guldo never lost his head is probably one of the most impressive editing techniques Funimation pulled. Saban’s draconian restrictions certainly kept Funimation’s paint editors busy.



I honestly feel like inserting the bit of Bardock’s tv special into the first episode of Kai was a mistake. Not only because it goes against the series M.O of being “The Toriyama cut” but it makes it seem like the whole series is building up to the endgame of Goku vs Freeza when at the end of the day Freeza is just an arc villain. Albeit one with ties to Goku’s backstory.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 50 - DBZ 63, TVS1, 64 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:36 pm

As noted above, the FUNi dub of the Bardock special is notoriously inaccurate and the dub acting is around the Season 3/4 level. It along with OG DB, DB movies 2-3, GT, the Trunks special and Z proper are the parts of the series that i cannot bring myself to watch with the dub and just stick with the Japanese version for viewings.

The Big Green dub of the special laughably bad and inaccurate though it may be is actually fun to watch for laughs. Here are some particular favorite moments that always get me every time.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rl5AVFlhm ... 2&index=28

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1Lf64wlfv ... 2&index=39

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3i1dArGgv ... 2&index=77

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9J_OSVuGu ... 2&index=76

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YW809zBvR ... &index=100

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ybMl9GuUw ... C&index=20

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wz0oXmoR2 ... bC&index=9
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1.) Find decent priced copy of Dragon Box Z Vol. 4 (Done)

2.) Collect rest of manga

3.) Get rest of Daizenshuu (2-7)

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 50 - DBZ 63, TVS1, 64 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:19 pm

The funniest thIng is for as inaccurate as the Bardock dub was Funimation didn’t even try to pay lip service to their “brilliant scientist” invention. And it’s not like some added crap to make him seem like a scientist who just happened to be a space pirate brute would have made the dub less accurate than it already was.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 50 - DBZ 63, TVS1, 64 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MyVisionity » Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:10 pm

Gurd was a funny character. I enjoyed watching him beat up Gohan and Kuririn. His death scene is of course also funny. I could never really tell what the anime was going for with his decapitation. Some kind of Ki shot? Vegeta striking super-fast? The manga is naturally much clearer:


Looks like Funimation streaming ain't got the Bardock special available for whatever reason. I had to go with my old fansub instead:

"The Last Survivor's Battle" Freezer vs. Z Solder Kakaloto's Father

The story is pretty simple but well written. Good use of established characters while focusing on new ones. The use of silence is effective in this one, especially in Freeza scenes. Nice use of Movie 3 tracks of course. The final battle against Freeza's army and destruction of Vegeta is classic. Freeza's attack really makes it clear just how unimaginable the gulf of power is between him and anyone else.

I recall that in the dub Young Vegeta's voice was particularly bad. Also, I don't think they changed any of Bardock's dialogue from the dubbed episode with Freeza's flashback during Goku's fight, where they made it sound like Bardock was leading an army in rebellion against Freeza instead of fighting them off.

Ep 64 looks great during Vegeta vs Recoom. It kind of feels like a turning point for the animation/artwork in the series. Kenji Utsumi is good as Recoom.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 50 - DBZ 63, TVS1, 64 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by WittyUsername » Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:25 am

Kai’s depiction of the Bardock special still doesn’t work with Super. Bardock is the one who sends Goku to Earth in Super, not some scientists. Besides, even the original manga already established that Bardock confronted Freeza in space before he wiped out the Saiyans.
Also, I don't think they changed any of Bardock's dialogue from the dubbed episode with Freeza's flashback during Goku's fight, where they made it sound like Bardock was leading an army in rebellion against Freeza instead of fighting them off.
They did. The dub of the special has Bardock talking about how he’s done working for Freeza, and how he’s going to avenge the people he killed in Freeza’s name. Considering what’s depicted in the special, it wouldn’t even be possible for them to make it seem like those soldiers are part of a rebellion.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 50 - DBZ 63, TVS1, 64 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by ArmenianPepsi » Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:08 am

Oh boy Bardock Special time. This is the perfect opportunity to go on a pointless nerd rant over some Japanese cartoons.

In all seriousness though. Of all the retcons Toriyama has done to DB over the years, the erasure of this special with DB Minus will be the most disappointing, aggravating, and annoying of all to me. The man took a great story that worked perfectly fine for 20+ years, a story that just about every DB fan loves to death, a story he said he liked himself, and just destroyed it. Replacing it with his own awful third rate substitute. It's the equivalent of having a 4th grader paint a new Mona Lisa to replace the old one.

This wasn't some one off, small fry tier character detail he was changing that only super fans would care about. He was meddling with the backstory of the main character of the series. This kind of stuff caries incredible weight. I can not fathom what was going on in his head when he was writing it, it baffles me.

This will always be my Bardock. Not that Dollar Store Jor-El Toriyama made.
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 50 - DBZ 63, TVS1, 64 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by KBABZ » Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:11 am

Controversial opinion: I freaking love Gine.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 50 - DBZ 63, TVS1, 64 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by ArmenianPepsi » Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:13 am

KBABZ wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:11 am Controversial opinion: I freaking love Gine.
Gine was cool for the novelty factor. I did like her female Saiyan armor design, and yes it was kinda cool to see Goku's mom. That's the only thing I like about DB Minus though :lol:
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 50 - DBZ 63, TVS1, 64 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by KBABZ » Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:25 am

ArmenianPepsi wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:13 am
KBABZ wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:11 am Controversial opinion: I freaking love Gine.
Gine was cool for the novelty factor. I did like her female Saiyan armor design, and yes it was kinda cool to see Goku's mom. That's the only thing I like about DB Minus though :lol:
So far she's the only Saiyan mum we've seen in the entire franchise, and I love that she's a latent explanation of where Goku's post-ravine personality comes from.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 50 - DBZ 63, TVS1, 64 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:15 am

Only problem people have with Gine, from what I can tell is that her existence validates the newer revised Bardock. TV special Bardock wouldn't have been loyal to someone, even if she was the mother of his child. That said, the newer Bardock isn't a bad character, in some ways seeking redemption, as he does in DBS Broly makes him more nuanced.
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 50 - DBZ 63, TVS1, 64 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Dec 10, 2020 8:55 am

WittyUsername wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:25 am

They did. The dub of the special has Bardock talking about how he’s done working for Freeza, and how he’s going to avenge the people he killed in Freeza’s name. Considering what’s depicted in the special, it wouldn’t even be possible for them to make it seem like those soldiers are part of a rebellion.

But did they fix Bardock’s dialog in the partial redub of season 3 for the remastered season sets? Especially since Sonny Strait was still redubbing Krillin’s dialog at the time I believe.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 50 - DBZ 63, TVS1, 64 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by WittyUsername » Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:55 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 8:55 am
WittyUsername wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:25 am

They did. The dub of the special has Bardock talking about how he’s done working for Freeza, and how he’s going to avenge the people he killed in Freeza’s name. Considering what’s depicted in the special, it wouldn’t even be possible for them to make it seem like those soldiers are part of a rebellion.

But did they fix Bardock’s dialog in the partial redub of season 3 for the remastered season sets? Especially since Sonny Strait was still redubbing Krillin’s dialog at the time I believe.
No. Bardock’s lines were left untouched.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 50 - DBZ 63, TVS1, 64 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by 8000 Saiyan » Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:59 pm

Fun fact: Takeshi Watabe, who voiced Pambukin in this special, was the voice of Tom Robinson in a dub of To Kill a Mockingbird. Masako Nozawa and Chikao Otsuka (voice of Tao Pai Pai) voiced Jem and Bob Ewell in that dub too.
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 50 - DBZ 63, TVS1, 64 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Dec 11, 2020 7:40 pm

ArmenianPepsi wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:08 am Oh boy Bardock Special time. This is the perfect opportunity to go on a pointless nerd rant over some Japanese cartoons.

In all seriousness though. Of all the retcons Toriyama has done to DB over the years, the erasure of this special with DB Minus will be the most disappointing, aggravating, and annoying of all to me. The man took a great story that worked perfectly fine for 20+ years, a story that just about every DB fan loves to death, a story he said he liked himself, and just destroyed it. Replacing it with his own awful third rate substitute. It's the equivalent of having a 4th grader paint a new Mona Lisa to replace the old one.

This wasn't some one off, small fry tier character detail he was changing that only super fans would care about. He was meddling with the backstory of the main character of the series. This kind of stuff caries incredible weight. I can not fathom what was going on in his head when he was writing it, it baffles me.

This will always be my Bardock. Not that Dollar Store Jor-El Toriyama made.

This is why I never cared much for “this is canon and now its not” mindset.

When I’m watching Dragon Ball and Z and even Kai the events of the Bardock tv special happened in my mind and they obviously fit in with the 80s/90s anime.

The new Dragon Ball Minus backstory only applies to Super thanks to the Broly movie.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 50 - DBZ 63, TVS1, 64 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Xeogran » Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:38 am

Guldo still has one of the most hax skills in the series. Do we even know that higher power levels could bypass it? Vegeta was stronger but he got timestopped too, no?

I'm also surprised he didn't get mentioned during the U6 tournament where Hit had a similar technique.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 50 - DBZ 63, TVS1, 64

Post by Planetnamek » Sun Jan 31, 2021 10:22 pm

I echo those who disliked Bardock being erased with Minus, it was an unnecessary retcon that nobody was asking for, Bardock's story was fine the way it was.
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 50 - DBZ 63, TVS1, 64

Post by KBABZ » Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:55 pm

Planetnamek wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 10:22 pm I echo those who disliked Bardock being erased with Minus, it was an unnecessary retcon that nobody was asking for, Bardock's story was fine the way it was.
I feel it was more Toriyama telling how he feels the story played out for him. Remember, while he did like the Bardock special a lot (to the point of referencing it in his own manga), he still did say that it was a story he never would have written. It wasn't really important until it was included as the final part of DBS Broly's first act that showed the backstory of the three Saiyan characters of the movie.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 50 - DBZ 63, TVS1, 64

Post by Robo4900 » Mon Feb 01, 2021 10:29 am

KBABZ wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:55 pm
Planetnamek wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 10:22 pm I echo those who disliked Bardock being erased with Minus, it was an unnecessary retcon that nobody was asking for, Bardock's story was fine the way it was.
I feel it was more Toriyama telling how he feels the story played out for him. Remember, while he did like the Bardock special a lot (to the point of referencing it in his own manga), he still did say that it was a story he never would have written. It wasn't really important until it was included as the final part of DBS Broly's first act that showed the backstory of the three Saiyan characters of the movie.
Agreed, KBABZ.

The Bardock special, much like the entire anime prior to Battle of Gods, is Toei's vision of Dragon Ball. The manga, Minus, Broly, etc. are Toriyama's vision.

The fact that a character from an anime-only special would be very different in a manga-only special is not very surprising, and neither Minus nor Broly "erase" Bardock, they simply provide an alternate version of Bardock who appears in a different take on the events told by the original special.

It's a lot like some of the best filler and movies (particularly Z movie 13) from the pre-Super days; yes, it's supposedly "non canon", but who cares? It's still good. New stories that ignore the old stuff aren't "erasing" the old story, because the old story will always be there, even if some of the later stories don't pay attention to it.
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 50 - DBZ 63, TVS1, 64

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Feb 01, 2021 11:14 am

Robo4900 wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 10:29 am
KBABZ wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:55 pm
Planetnamek wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 10:22 pm I echo those who disliked Bardock being erased with Minus, it was an unnecessary retcon that nobody was asking for, Bardock's story was fine the way it was.
I feel it was more Toriyama telling how he feels the story played out for him. Remember, while he did like the Bardock special a lot (to the point of referencing it in his own manga), he still did say that it was a story he never would have written. It wasn't really important until it was included as the final part of DBS Broly's first act that showed the backstory of the three Saiyan characters of the movie.
Agreed, KBABZ.

The Bardock special, much like the entire anime prior to Battle of Gods, is Toei's vision of Dragon Ball. The manga, Minus, Broly, etc. are Toriyama's vision.

The fact that a character from an anime-only special would be very different in a manga-only special is not very surprising, and neither Minus nor Broly "erase" Bardock, they simply provide an alternate version of Bardock who appears in a different take on the events told by the original special.

It's a lot like some of the best filler and movies (particularly Z movie 13) from the pre-Super days; yes, it's supposedly "non canon", but who cares? It's still good. New stories that ignore the old stuff aren't "erasing" the old story, because the old story will always be there, even if some of the later stories don't pay attention to it.
This needs to be pinned up somewhere every time fans complain about non-canon and canon.

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