Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 51 - DBZ 65-69

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Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 51 - DBZ 65-69

Post by Robo4900 » Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:23 am

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Hello, ladies, gentlemen, and everyone between and beyond, and welcome to week 51 of the first Dragon Ball rewatch of the decade.
We're doing five episodes a week, and we'll be watching every single episode of Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, and Dragon Ball GT. All 508 episodes. Plus the TV specials and the movies.
I encourage you all to watch in Japanese with subtitles, especially if you have never done so before, but watch along in whichever way brings you the most joy.

If this was Toonami US from the first 9 months of 1999, we would be looping back to the beginning of DBZ at this point. ;)
Also, apologies for how dub-heavy the trivia is this week... It's about the only interesting stuff I could think to write about for this week's episodes, so I just went ham on it.

Regarding next week, the plan was for no new thread next Wednesday because it's Christmas week... But I made that plan before COVID, so I'm debating just putting a thread up anyway. I don't really know. I'm still debating it. Let me know your thoughts below.

Previous thread: Week 50 (DBZ 63, TVS1, 64)
Next thread: Week 52 (DBZ 70-74)

Anyway, without further ado...

Episode 218 - Don’t Die, Gohan! Goku Finally Touches Down on the Battlefield (DBZ episode 65)
Dub title: Let the Battle Begin
Originally aired 31st of October 1990

Kai equivalent: Episode 30 - The Hellish Reacoom! Keep Me Entertained, Vegeta-chan (last half)
Edited dub equivalent: Episode 52 - Enter Goku (some footage incorporated into Episode 51 - The Relentless Recoome / No Refuge From Recoome)

Written by: Katsuyuki Sumisawa
Episode director: Yoshihiro Ueda
Animation supervisor: Mitsuo Shindō


Freeza has assembled the Dragon Balls, but he doesn’t know the method of getting his wish granted. In order to learn this method, Freeza heads for the Eldest’s house. Gohan battles Recoom, but Recoom easily blocks his attacks! Even his full power Masenkō merely scorches Recoom’s hand. He attacks Gohan as if enjoying himself. His kick blows Gohan away. His neck is broken, and he’s already at death’s door… At that moment, Goku finally arrives on Planet Namek!!

Anime-only/filler content: Gohan firing a Masenko and Butta being surprised by his power level, Chichi trying to go to space to rescue Gohan, Captain Ginyu performing the dance of joy.

Episode 219 - Uncommon Strength!! The Legendary Super Saiyan, Son Goku (DBZ episode 66)
Dub title: Goku's New Power
Originally aired 7th of November 1990

Kai equivalent: Episode 31 - Son Goku Finally Arrives! Knock the Ginyu Special-Squad Around (first third)
Edited dub equivalent: Episode 53 - Goku... Super Saiyan? (some footage also incorporated into Episode 52 - Enter Goku)

Written by: Katsuyuki Sumisawa
Episode director: Tatsuya Orime
Animation supervisor: Yukio Ebisawa


Goku gives a senzu to not just Gohan and Kuririn, but Vegeta as well. By searching through Kuririn’s memories, he knows about the time that Vegeta had saved their lives! Goku faces Recoom alone. With his extremely calm appearance, does he not know his opponent’s strength…? Gohan and the others think this, and become uneasy. But Goku defeats Recoom with a single hit!! Is Goku the legendary Super Saiyan?!

Anime-only/filler content: Kaio watching Goku land on Namek, Reacoom flipping off Goku, Dr. Brief and Chichi calling Bulma, Vegeta's Super Saiyan flashback sequence, Butta and Jheese trying to attack Goku after he appears behind them.

Episode 220 - Lightning Balls of Red and Blue! Jheese and Butta Attack Goku (DBZ episode 67)
Dub title: A Legend Revealed
Originally aired 14th of November 1990

Kai equivalent: Episode 31 - Son Goku Finally Arrives! Knock the Ginyu Special-Squad Around (middle third)
Edited dub equivalent: Episode 53 - Goku... Super Saiyan? (first six minutes), Episode 54 - Ginyu Assault

Written by: Aya Matsui
Episode director: Daisuke Nishio
Animation supervisor: Masayuki Uchiyama


Goku has defeated Recoom with one hit! But Jheese and Butta don’t think that Goku defeated Recoom through skill. They come at Goku together, but can’t hit him even once. Instead, they are blown away with just a kiai. Goku instantaneously raises his ki, so the scouters don’t pick it up! Goku deflects the pair’s combined attack, the Purple Comet Crash, and even Jheese’s Crusher Ball, all with one hand…!

Anime-only/filler content: Butta and Jheese throwing ki blasts at Goku while he invisibly dodges them, a scene of Freeza approaching the Grand Elder's place talking to himself to try to fill time, Captain Ginyu holding auditions for new Ginyu Force members, Goku deflecting Butta and Jheese's special attack by shouting at it (kiai), Bulma being homesick and nearly getting killed by a stray ki blast.

Episode 221 - At Last, a Direct Confrontation!! Captain Ginyu Takes the Field (DBZ episode 68)
Dub title: Ginyu Assault
Originally aired 21st of November 1990

Kai equivalent: Episode 31 - Son Goku Finally Arrives! Knock the Ginyu Special-Squad Around (last third) and Episode 32 - The Star Performer Takes the Stage?! Captain Ginyu vs Son Goku (first half)
Edited dub equivalent: Episode 54 - Ginyu Assault (first 12 minutes), Episode 55 - Incredible Force

Written by: Keiji Terui
Episode director: Jun’ichi Fujise
Animation supervisor: Masahiro Shimanuki


Goku’s speed exceeds that of Butta, who prided himself as the fastest in the universe! In order to show that he exceeds Jheese and Butta in power as well, Goku defeats Butta with a single blow. Goku tells Jheese to stop this pointless fight. Jheese flies off to summon Captain Ginyu. Vegeta finishes off the immobile Recoom and Butta, and cautions Goku that he won’t be able to win against Freeza with such softness. Jheese then returns, having brought Captain Ginyu!!

Anime-only/filler content: Captain Ginyu's Ginyu Force auditions continue, and Bulma does some more worrying.

Episode 222 - Incredible Force!! Did You See It, Goku’s Full Power? (DBZ episode 69)
Dub title: Incredible Force!
Originally aired 28th of November 1990

Kai equivalent: Episode 32 - The Star Performer Takes the Stage?! Captain Ginyu vs Son Goku (last half)
Edited dub equivalent: Episode 55 - Incredible Force (first 14 minutes), Episode 56 - Frieza Approaches

Written by: Aya Matsui
Episode director: Minoru Okazaki
Animation supervisor: Mitsuo Shindō


Gohan and Kuririn head off to search for the Dragon Balls. Vegeta flies off, abandoning Goku. Goku and Ginyu’s one-on-one fight begins! Jheese backs Ginyu, but Ginyu scolds him for it, hoping to have a fair fight. Ginyu presses Goku to display his true power. In response, Goku steadily raises his ki!! Ginyu loses his calm at Goku’s battle power, which far surpasses what he had imagined!

Anime-only/filler content: Extensions to Goku vs Captain Ginyu, Bulma wanting to use the Dragon Balls to wish herself home, Ginyu throwing a ki blast at Jheese out of frustration.

-

Interesting trivia:
  • At this point in time in the manga, Dende heals Kuririn, Piccolo arrives and fights Freeza, Freeza goes to form 3, and Vegeta has Kuririn nearly kill him so he can get a Zenkai boost.
  • Z episode 66 is the first episode to use music from Z movie 3.
  • The golden Oozaru we see in Vegeta's flashback in episode 66 symbolising the original Super Saiyan is a concept that is later revisited in GT.
  • Kai episode 30 has 29 redrawn shots, episode 31 has 21 redrawn shots, and episode 32 has 10 redrawn shots.
  • Those of you watching the uncut series with the Funimation English dub, particularly with the US replacement score, will have an interesting run of episodes this week; episode 67 marks the end of Nathan Johnson's work scoring DBZ (outside of a few of the movies), and the end of the 2005-2006 "Ultimate Uncut" redub of the first 67 episodes.
  • Edits in the original dub:
    • Uncut episode 65 had various shortenings of shots where punches and kicks connect, some gore is edited out, Dr Brief's cigarette is painted out, and a star was painted over Reacoom kicking the back of Gohan's neck.
    • Uncut episode 66 had Reacoom flipping him off cut, though Goku's smile in response to it wasn't. Additionally, Reacoom's exposed butt and bloody face were censored, and Dr Brief's cigarette continues to be painted out.
    • In the first six minutes of uncut episode 67, blood is painted out as usual... And then that's the end of the Saban dub! You may think that's the end of these notes, but Chris Psaros continued to write guides describing the censorship in Funimation's TV edits, so we continue on!
    • In the remainder of uncut episode 67, equivalent to edited episode 54, there are no paint edits. The recap uses a lot of footage from earlier in this uncut episode and in the previous episode, but all the blood that was painted out in the previous edited episodes is left in. This is likely because Toonami had far more lax restrictions than Saban enforced in syndication; Toonami was a cable channel, and DBZ wasn't airing in a morning timeslot anymore, so less restrictions were put on it. They still usually weren't allowed to swear though, and even in the uncut version of these episodes, they use very clean language most of the time.
    • In uncut episode 68 (which was cut up into edited episodes 54 and 55), we begin to see dialogue changes in the uncut vs TV versions. The first one Psaros notes is Butta says "Bite me" in the uncut version, whereas he says "Turkey!" on Cartoon Network. Psaros notes that "Another dimension" is mentioned here. He also notes that Vegeta stomping on Butta's neck and blasting Reacoom into oblivion was not cut. One scene that was cut, about 48 seconds in length, was Bulma sitting at the camp site, thinking about Goku. This scene was kept in the uncut version released on VHS and DVD, but was cut from the TV version. Weirdly, if you watch the "uncut" version with the English language track, there's a digital paint edit that covers up Goku's genitals in a flashback to the bath scene from the Pilaf arc, whereas if you watch the Japanese subtitled track, the scene is uncensored.
    • In uncut episode 69 (which was cut up into edited episodes 55 and 56), Vegeta says "If there's one thing I've learned from this whole ordeal, it's that I'm a friggin' genius!" This was toned down in the TV edit, and rendered as "If there's one thing I learned from this whole ordeal, it's that I'm an absolute genius!" Additionally, about a minute of shots of Goku powering up was cut from the TV version.
  • After edited episode 53 concluded DBZ's 30-episode second season (27 if you don't count the Tree Of Might 3-part episode... Which you should, but many people don't), Saban decided to change their syndication lineup, and I believe their block shrunk in size. Primarily, they focussed on in-house programming like Power Rangers, so DBZ -- being an outside production -- was dropped. Although many apply a very dramatic story of it failing and finding its first success later on, this is completely wrong! DBZ actually did very well in syndication, its second season in particular, in which the format was changed from season 1's one episode per week schedule to a one-hour/two-episode slot every week, had more than 85% coverage of the US and received top ratings for a weekly syndicated series. By all accounts, DBZ was a hit (and a very notable one, since it was an anime that was a hit in the US before Pokémon), it just wasn't a show Saban wanted to continue syndicating after 1998. The last episode of DBZ to air in syndication aired in May 1998, but it was back on the air almost immediately, with the previously-unaired episode 10 airing in September that year (which would mean reruns began roughly in August). The second DB movie, "Sleeping Princess in Devil Castle" released in December, arguably being a sort of "Pilot dub" to see if the Texas cast could dub Dragon Ball, and new DBZ episodes were on store shelves for American audiences to buy in May, merely a year after the last new episodes to air (not counting the skipped episode 10 that debuted on CN in September '98). These new episodes would air on Cartoon Network, in an edited form, that september, just four months after the video release (16 months after the last syndicated episode aired; roughly 13 months after DBZ began airing on CN).
  • Unfortunately, fans were dismayed when the new DBZ episodes (and the Sleeping Princess movie) featured a new cast that sounded real shitty. While you know them today as the well-loved, and honestly solid group of actors who dub Dragon Ball for Funimation, back in 1999, most of them were just barely starting in acting, were working under equally-inexperienced directors, all being paid about the minimum that was legally possible, all non-union, and all using very cheap, outdated equipment, with the one and only requirement of their work being that it sounds close enough to what the professionals up in Canada had been doing for the past four years that most kids wouldn't be too bothered by the change. Exactly why the change was made at all is a somewhat controversial thing, but essentially it boils down to an attempt at penny-pinching; unlike the Funimation of today, Funimation of the '90s would cost cut (and corner cut) in every single way they possibly could, down to not paying the Canadian cast for screams or grunts, and only paying them about a dollar per spoken line. In those days, the attitude was "If we can save a buck, we do it, whatever it takes." So, they dropped their cast and brought in even cheaper work that would work out of cheaper studio spaces, with the already-on-staff producers taking on directing duties so they don't have to pay for a dedicated director. Additionally, costs would be saved from Barry Watson being able to be hands-on in recording without flying out to Canada, and the voice recordings wouldn't need to be transported from Canada either.
  • In the early in-house Funimation dub, the entire cast was basically cast as voice-matches for the Canadian cast. In particular, Chris Sabat did his best imitation of Brian Drummond's Vegeta. Like most of the cast, this would change quite drastically as the run went on, and these days many would argue his Vegeta voice bears little resemblance to Drummond's. Meanwhile, others such as Sean Schemmel's Goku and Kaio remain very close matches to their Canadian counterparts to this day (though the performance itself has become far more refined in the past 21 years).
    • To be clear, none of this is to suggest any disrespect for the Funimation cast. As they are now, I (Robo) have the utmost respect for them. However, in the interest of these trivia entries, we're looking at when they began, when they weren't chosen because they were the best actors to play their parts, they were chosen because they were the cheapest possible choices who could sound close enough to the Canadian voices, even though they grew far beyond that in the ensuing years.
  • The in-house Funimation dub also had a serious down-turn in scripting quality. It's not clear why, but there's a long stretch of episodes from roughly when Funimation took things in-house up until somewhere in the Androids/Cell sagas where the scripts, even accounting for Funimation's usual "Punching up", seemed to pay even less attention to the original Japanese dialogue than before; at some points, it almost seems like they were simply missing a few pages of script and just had to make something up in the voice recording booth.
  • One positive change made to the DBZ dub's production is that it was recorded uncut starting from episode 68/54. However, because the Saban dub's final episode, #53, ended about six minutes into uncut episode 67, they had to first bring the edited and uncut numberings into alignment. For the stretch of episodes from uncut 67/edited 54 up to uncut 71/edited 57, there were actually three different episode numberings; the original Japanese numbering, Funimation's home video numbering (where episode 54 was simply ~35 minutes long, containing the rest of Japanese episode 67 and all of episode 68, so all episodes following this line up exactly with an uncut episode), and Funimation's TV numbering (where small cuts are made to each episode so they slowly, over the course of episodes 54-57, come into alignment with uncut, being fully aligned at episode 72/58). There is one additional wrinkle, which we'll get to soon enough.
  • Edited episode 54 also marks the beginning of Team Faulconer's work scoring DBZ. However, it is worth noting that Bruce Faulconer himself only composed a very small proportion of the Team Faulconer score overall, while others such as Mike Smith, Scott Morgan, and Julius Dobos (there may be others; I'm not an expert on the situation) composed the vast majority of the music, credited only in technical roles on the official credits, much like their predecessor, Ron Wasserman, whose work was always attributed to Shuki Levy (which is likely a part of why Wasserman was not invited back to continue scoring DBZ when things moved in-house).
  • The "Ultimate Uncut" redub covers the entirety of uncut episode 67, so fans of Team Faulconer's music score are deprived of the first 14 minutes of his scoring on the modern DVD/Blu-ray releases.
  • Uncut episode 68 also marks the beginning of where the modern DVD/Blu-ray releases did extensive redubbing of about half the dialogue in the series (though some was redubbed for prior episodes too; a small dialogue error for Roshi was fixed in an early episode, and Butta's dialogue was completely redubbed as his Ultimate Uncut casting, who would reprise the role in Kai, was unavailable for the 2007-2008 DVD redub of the rest of the Namek saga, so Butta was redubbed for consistency). The amount of redubbing would reduce a little as time went on, with none at all from the later Cell sagas onwards, but in these first few episodes that Funimation originally did in 1999, all of Kuririn, Vegeta, and Bulma's dialogue was redubbed. The scripts were kept essentially verbatim, but the new line readings used the voices the actors had developed over the course of the run, making them a little more consistent with the 2005/2006 recording of episode 67. But, not all the actors were available for the 2007/2008 redub of episodes 68+, in particular Sean Schemmel wasn't available, so Goku's dialogue is quite jarringly different, despite Vegeta's sounding okay. Additionally, some alternate takes were accidentally used of some lines, the Faulconer score was reverted to an earlier state before the final placements were chosen, some additional cut lines were reinstated, some other lines were accidentally dropped, and the mixing as a whole was a mess... Basically, the "Remastered dub" seen on the new DVD/Blu-ray releases is a mess from top to bottom, unfortunately, and it solves none of the underlying issues of the 1999 dub, much like how the 2005-2006 "Ultimate Uncut" redub failed to address the serious issues afflicting the original dub of the first 67 uncut episodes.
    • The "Remastered" and "Ultimate Uncut" dubs seen on the modern releases also ruin one joke in this run of episodes in particular; in the original episode 54 (using footage from uncut 67 and 68), Butta can't believe how fast Goku is and says "No one's that fast!"; Jheese tells him "Apparently he is, mate." This is then repeated a few minutes later when Butta and Goku echo this exchange as "No one's that fast!" "Well apparently I am!" However, the first exchange that this later one is in reference to is gone in the redub of uncut episode 67, but the second exchange remains intact in the partial redub of episode 68.
  • There's one more version of Funimation's in-house DBZ dub, which aired on YTV starting from when the Garlic Jr. saga began airing; this new version covered the new Garlic Jr. saga, as well as all re-airings of older episodes. This version was edited by Ocean Productions using all the production materials Funimation were using. The SFX track was sometimes modified, and alternate dialogue that was mistakenly not used in the TV edit was used in the Ocean version (such as "Don't piss off the Dragon God of Love", which had to be partially muted in the UK airings, correctly used a TV-safe line in the YTV version). Why precisely this alternate version exists is a mystery, but I personally believe it was the first step towards Ocean producing their own dub that would end up airing in Europe, and later in Canada. More on that later, when it becomes relevant to the week's viewing.
    • This means there is a grand total of four English versions of each DBZ episode from 68/54 until 122/107: The original home video version, the original American TV edit, the Ocean TV edit, and the "Remastered dub" as seen on the modern DVD/Blu-ray releases. Tune in when we get to 123/108 when we'll talk about having five versions of each episode...
  • Uncut recaps and previews for the original dub of DBZ episodes 55-57/69-71 do not exist, though they do exist for every episode after that. It's possible the recaps were recorded, but at best they went unused -- the home video uncut releases didn't use recaps or previews except at the beginning of the first episode, and the end of the last episode, on each disc/tape. In most cases, a recap/preview was still recorded, but only used in the TV edit, but since these three episodes' uncut and TV versions don't exactly line up with each other, this doesn't apply.
Episode summaries, airdates, and titles courtesy of Kanzenshuu's episode guide. Dragon Ball logo provided by KBABZ. Additional trivia courtesy of Chris Psaros's DBZ Uncensored guide.
Last edited by Robo4900 on Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 51 - DBZ 65-69 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Matches Malone » Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:33 am

Anytime someone says what Spopovich did to Videl was "too brutal", I can't help but wonder if they forgot about what Recoome does to Gohan here. The beating was bad enough, but that kick to the neck was just brutal. If that's not bad enough, Gohan is no more than 5 years old here. This is what I love about the Ginyu force, their ability to be really silly and really scary at the same time. That's not easy to pull off, yet Toriyama does it here perfectly.

Goku's arrival and fights with the 3 Ginuys is great, it definitely made up for the beating he took from Vegeta back on earth. I really like how confident he is, as well as how effortlessly he deals with Recoome and Burter. Speaking of Vegeta, it's great seeing that despite his alliance with the heroes, he's still very much the same villain he was back on earth, and is only in it for his own personal gain.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 51 - DBZ 65-69 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:49 am

Of course as noted above, ep 67/68 (originally 53 and 54 in dub numbering) is where the full transition from the Ocean Studios cast to the FUNi in house crew for the series proper happened back in mid 1999. Boy, it's so crazy to think that it has really been that long since the team of dub VA's so ingrained into the English DB franchise here for better or worse first stepped into their respective roles of the characters, many of which like Sean Schemmel and Chris Sabat are still going strong even now as Goku and Vegeta. Needless to say, when going back to those early days it really showed that the cast were very green and inexperienced (many having admitted as such years later) and how far they've come in the anime dubbing industry ever since then.

Here's a comparison showing how much they have grown over many years, all of the same scene.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Jo-MoNaY4KI
Last edited by SuperSaiyaManZ94 on Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 51 - DBZ 65-69 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:51 am

It’s amusing how much stronger than Vegeta Goku has become just from gravity training on the way to Namek. If you think about it Vegeta was still stronger than Goku when Goku got back from otherworld both would have gotten boost from being at the brink of death after their fight plus Vegeta would have gotten an additional boost from his fight with Zarbon and then Recoome. Vegeta would take a page out of Goku’s book when prepping for the Cyborgs but he never did really catch up.


I still think Spopovitch’s beatdown of Videl was more brutal than Recoome breaking Gohan’s neck. I think it’s because having a buff 5-year old who can ki blast and fight toe to toe with adults made it feel more rooted in fantasy plus being on an alien planet. Something about having a more grounded setting with a fairly normal if highly skilled teenager getting brutalized felt more...raw?

As far as the dub is concerned, I’m just going to come out and say it no matter how much the Funimation Studios cast improved (to he point you could fairly argue they’re now just as good or better than the Ocean cast) Funimation firing the Ocean Studios cast just to save some extra cash has got to be one of the single incompetent things a television company has ever done. Cast changes are inevitable, hell Ocean went through 3 Gokus and Sailor Moon’s original dub had to replace half its main cast after a 3 year hiatus but laying off an entire cast as a cost cutting measure (especially when you have a hit show on your hands) is just wooow. People will do their damnedest to defend Funi using the excuse they couldn’t afford the Ocean Group because of the parting of ways with Saban but that doesn’t hold water because 1. Funimation had been outsourcing to Vancouver before they even partnered with Saban 2. As Ian Corlett pointed out in his DBZ uncensored interview Ocean Studios got the job because they’re so cheap 3. Funimation obviously would have had more money after two seasons than when they started if they could afford to outsource to Vancouver when they were a new start up company in 1994 they could afford it with a number one syndicated boys action cartoon.

And let’s not pretend the whole switching cast and then going back to redub those episodes with their homegrown cast didn’t come back to bite them in the ass. Since the season 3 cast was directed to sound as much like the Ocean cast as possible, something that longer applied by the 2005 Ultimate Uncut redub Funimation (on top of some of their own actors no longer being with the company by that point like Ceyli Delgadillo and Dale Kelly) Funimation had no choice but to redub a lot of their own in-house work...except way more work was required than what Funimation was willing to put in (or maybe they didn’t have time) so we still get Goku going from Schemmel’s polished performance to his hilaribad and awkward attempt to emulate Peter Kelamis’s unique delivery, Piccolo goes from his more commanding back of the throat voice to sounding like a dumb ogre, and we get Yamcha suddenly turning into a vapid surfer boy (something that was dropped by the time they dubbed the original Dragon Ball) and Bulma being waaaay more of a valley girl out of nowhere.


As Robo pointed out the scripts also took a notable downturn with season 3. Not that the scripts for season 1 and 2 didn’t have lame kidvid humor (Goku’s “I don’t accept hand out” joke and Gohan’s quip about wanting to join cub scouts comes to mind) but it just went off the wall in season 3 and didn’t calm down until maybe the Android saga? The weird thing is other than Sabat joining Barry Watson as an Assistant voice director (replacing Karl Willems from Ocean) not much really changed from season 2 to 3 on the writers side. The writers at the time were still Chris Neel, Chris Forbis, and Terry Klassen I believe and Watson would be showrunning from day one all the way to the UUE redub. Maybe after the show’s break out success on Cartoon Network their was more pressure to “beef up the comedy” even more than before
Last edited by MasenkoHA on Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:05 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 51 - DBZ 65-69 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:58 am

Just imagine how different things would've been at the time had FUNi not been so cheap and were willing to continue on with outsourcing to Ocean for the voices and not punching up the scripts with god awful jokes and other plot hole, character altering garbage nearly as much.

They surely could've afforded to continue on with doing so even without Saban's backing, though of course Barry Watson and the other higher up suits at the time decided doing everything internally at FUNi with their own in house cast would be cheaper than continuing the flights Barry had been making to and from Vancouver for voice direction which had been done prior on seasons 1 and 2.
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 51 - DBZ 65-69 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MyVisionity » Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:19 am

Yeah I agree that Videl/Spopovich is still more brutal than Gohan/Recoom. About the only thing brutal here is Rikuum breaking Gohan's neck, not the rest of the fight.

The Ocean era was just beginning to really take off when in-house came in. It's too bad. I would have enjoyed seeing Peter Kelamis versus Freeza.

I still prefer the original 1999 version of Season Three over the others. The remastered stuff just don't cut it. Sabat as Drummond as Vegeta makes these early episodes memorable. And Dale Kelly of course.

It seems like Vegeta overlooks Goku's Kaiō-ken, which is what really gives him the advantage in these battles.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 51 - DBZ 65-69 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Robo4900 » Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:03 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:51 am As Robo pointed out the scripts also took a notable downturn with season 3. Not that the scripts for season 1 and 2 didn’t have lame kidvid humor (Goku’s “I don’t accept hand out” joke and Gohan’s quip about wanting to join cub scouts comes to mind) but it just went off the wall in season 3 and didn’t calm down until maybe the Android saga? The weird thing is other than Sabat joining Barry Watson as an Assistant voice director (replacing Karl Willems from Ocean) not much really changed from season 2 to 3 on the writers side. The writers at the time were still Chris Neel, Chris Forbis, and Terry Klassen I believe and Watson would be showrunning from day one all the way to the UUE redub. Maybe after the show’s break out success on Cartoon Network their was more pressure to “beef up the comedy” even more than before
My guess is they further cut costs by spending less money on the translation work.

I theorise that their translations in the first two seasons were handled in LA or Vancouver, potentially using translators who'd previously worked on other Saban shows or translators who'd worked with Ocean, but after the move in-house they decided to go with cheaper, less-experienced translators more local to Texas (or they just used the shitty, badly-translated-but-fairly-literal ones supplied by Toei that never made any sense), necessitating heavier re-interpretation to make sense of the scripts, and thus leading not only to the scripts being more inaccurate, but also to the actual writing quality to be worse, because there was necessarily more rewriting going on, often in the recording booth for cases like lines being missing in the script.

Steve Simmons eventually joined and took on translation duties, but I'm not sure exactly when that happened. At the very least, the first DBZ DVDs to contain his subtitles would have been the September 2000 release of the Trunks singles (followed in October by the two Ginyu singles), which was around the time the Garlic Jr. saga was airing. If Simmons' work with Funimation began then, it would explain why the scripts were slightly less terrible starting from sometime in the Androids/Cell sagas, since they then had a competent translation to work off of... Though I'm uncertain exactly when Simmons' work on the series began.
A few months later, in 2001, it seems Funi also worked with Clyde Mandelin, with him providing the translations used for the original Dragon Ball series for episodes 1-13 and 29-153 (Simmons did 14-28, but IIRC he was too busy to do the rest).
MyVisionity wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:19 am I still prefer the original 1999 version of Season Three over the others.
In terms of 1999 vs the partial redub from 2007, yeah, I don't think the redub worked at all. The 1999 version is preferable. Though I think Funi's Kai dub is better than either of those by a country mile. Still far from a perfect dub, but it's actually an acceptable translation of the original with solid performances overall.
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 51 - DBZ 65-69 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by ArmenianPepsi » Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:28 pm

With how "Questionable" Season 3's quality is, it still goes to show the strength DB still has. Even when stuck with a terrible dub, with arguably worse writing than a lot of others children's shows at the time, and even worse than Saban's previous diluted scripts, something about it was still able to poke through it all and engross a generation of viewers.

Cynical as it may be, I think at that point the still great animation and action were the only things keeping the viewers glued to the screen. Because I myself can not imagine myself as a kid living back then being able to get sucked in by the story when the plot is being delivered by things like Sean's 3rd rate Kelamis impersonation, Linda Young's chain smoker Frieza, Sabat's copy cat Drummond Vegeta, or Sabat's try-hard "Badass" Piccolo. That's just me though so I'm probably just rambling :lol:

Seriously, those first episodes after the transition to the in-house cast sound like it was recorded in Funimation's parking lot.
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 51 - DBZ 65-69 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Robo4900 » Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:32 pm

Oh, I forgot to mention this in the trivia:

Prior to this point, Jheese (or Jeice, if you like) had been voiced by Scott McNeil doing a rather decent Liverpool accent, inspired by the character of Dave Lister from Red Dwarf.
When Chris Sabat took over the role for the 1999 recasting to Funimation, Sabat instead put on a pretty terrible Australian accent. When the part was recast in Kai, the new actor still went with an Australian accent to match what Sabat had previously done.

On a related note, the 1999 Funi voice of Butta didn't sound much like Don Brown's take from 1997 at all. Neither did the 2007-2008 DVD redub version. But, weirdly, the 2010 Kai casting (presumably as well as his prior performance in the 2005-2006 "Ultimate Uncut" dub) sounded way, way closer to Don Brown's take on the character than either of the prior Funi castings, and actually didn't sound much like the two prior Funi castings at all.
Similarly, Dale Kelly's 1999 Captain Ginyu sounded nothing like Richard Newman's 1997 take, but the 2005-2008 redub, voiced by Brice Armstrong, actually sounded quite a bit closer. Then the Kai recasting (since Armstrong had retired in the meantime) basically sounded like someone impersonating Armstrong...

The Ginyu Force are probably the weirdest part of the inconsistency of Dragon Ball's English casts, if you ask me.
ArmenianPepsi wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:28 pm Cynical as it may be, I think at that point the still great animation and action were the only things keeping the viewers glued to the screen. Because I myself can not imagine myself as a kid living back then being able to get sucked in by the story when the plot is being delivered by things like Sean's 3rd rate Kelamis impersonation, Linda Young's chain smoker Frieza, Sabat's copy cat Drummond Vegeta, or Sabat's try-hard "Badass" Piccolo. That's just me though so I'm probably just rambling :lol:
No, I think you're at least partially right.

I think kids being already familiar with these characters and the plot, and just aching to find out what happens next after several months of reruns meant that they didn't care that the voices were shit. It's much the same as if The Empire Strikes Back came out with a shitty cast of Texan impersonators using sound but with it still looking great; even though the adults would turn their noses up at it, kids would still rally behind it because they're desperate to see what happens next in the story, what happens to the characters, and who fights who, how it turns out, etc.
ArmenianPepsi wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:28 pm Seriously, those first episodes after the transition to the in-house cast sound like it was recorded in Funimation's parking lot.
It's an improvement over their dub of DB movie 2, but not by a huge amount. It is clear that their recording equipment was antiquated and cheap.
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 51 - DBZ 65-69 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by KBABZ » Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:34 pm

ArmenianPepsi wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:28 pm With how "Questionable" Season 3's quality is, it still goes to show the strength DB still has. Even when stuck with a terrible dub, with arguably worse writing than a lot of others children's shows at the time, and even worse than Saban's previous diluted scripts, something about it was still able to poke through it all and engross a generation of viewers.
That and Americans were captivated by spiky-haired men firings lasers from their hands.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 51 - DBZ 65-69 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:36 pm

ArmenianPepsi wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:28 pm With how "Questionable" Season 3's quality is, it still goes to show the strength DB still has. Even when stuck with a terrible dub, with arguably worse writing than a lot of others children's shows at the time, and even worse than Saban's previous diluted scripts, something about it was still able to poke through it all and engross a generation of viewers.

Cynical as it may be, I think at that point the still great animation and action were the only things keeping the viewers glued to the screen. Because I myself can not imagine myself as a kid living back then being able to get sucked in by the story when the plot is being delivered by things like Sean's 3rd rate Kelamis impersonation, Linda Young's chain smoker Frieza, Sabat's copy cat Drummond Vegeta, or Sabat's try-hard "Badass" Piccolo. That's just me though so I'm probably just rambling :lol:

Seriously, those first episodes after the transition to the in-house cast sound like it was recorded in Funimation's parking lot.
As a kid watching in the Toonami days of old i didn't realize just how absolutely god awful the in house dub was particularly Season 3, but nowadays i'm fully aware it's a poorly aged dumpster fire of a production and am glad at least we have a much better dub out there with Kai i can actually watch with a straight face because there isn't horrendously unfunny jokes and excessive dialogue being uttered left and right. Seriously, it was in spite of all the ridiculous script writing and initially poor voice acting that the series became an even bigger success here than it had already been during the syndicated run. At this point i just cannot bring myself to watch the old Z dub these days after having a better version via Kai. No two ways about it, even the dub track with Kikuchi score is only slightly more watchable.

And yes, the Orange Brick partial redub only sort of fixed some of the worst things about the 1999 dub voice and script wise while leaving the vast majority as is, they barely even scratched the surface of what had been wrong about things their first time around.
Last edited by SuperSaiyaManZ94 on Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:59 pm, edited 11 times in total.
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 51 - DBZ 65-69 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:37 pm

Robo4900 wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:03 pm
My guess is they further cut costs by spending less money on the translation work.

I theorise that their translations in the first two seasons were handled in LA or Vancouver, potentially using translators who'd previously worked on other Saban shows or translators who'd worked with Ocean, but after the move in-house they decided to go with cheaper, less-experienced translators more local to Texas (or they just used the shitty, badly-translated-but-fairly-literal ones supplied by Toei that never made any sense), necessitating heavier re-interpretation to make sense of the scripts, and thus leading not only to the scripts being more inaccurate, but also to the actual writing quality to be worse, because there was necessarily more rewriting going on, often in the recording booth for cases like lines being missing in the script.

Steve Simmons eventually joined and took on translation duties, but I'm not sure exactly when that happened. At the very least, the first DBZ DVDs to contain his subtitles would have been the September 2000 release of the Trunks singles (followed in October by the two Ginyu singles), which was around the time the Garlic Jr. saga was airing. If Simmons' work with Funimation began then, it would explain why the scripts were slightly less terrible starting from sometime in the Androids/Cell sagas, since they then had a competent translation to work off of... Though I'm uncertain exactly when Simmons' work on the series began.
That would make sense. We know Ocean’s cast was working off Japanese tapes (Both Corlett and Kelamis mentioned occasionally referencing it) where allegedly the Funimation Studios cast was working off the Mexican dub (although considering the Mexican dub is apparently very faithful and it can’t be too difficult to find a Spanish to English translator in the state of Texas I don’t know) and actor complaints about having bad translations from Toei seem to be exclusively a Funimation Studios complaint.

MyVisionity wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:19 am I still prefer the original 1999 version of Season Three over the others.
In terms of 1999 vs the partial redub from 2007, yeah, I don't think the redub worked at all. The 1999 version is preferable. Though I think Funi's Kai dub is better than either of those by a country mile. Still far from a perfect dub, but it's actually an acceptable translation of the original with solid performances overall.
It’s a pick your poison scenario really.

The 1999 dub is hot garbage and you’re going to notice a significant drop in quality going from the edited dub with the Ocean Group cast or the 2005 UUE in-house redub. But its consistently awful and they’re at least trying to mimic the Ocean cast

The 2007 partial re-dub is a half fix with the newer actors like Brice Armstrong and Laura Bailey redubbing the old 1999 Funi actors being mostly improvements and Vegeta and Krillin sound better (and Gohan sounds less awful until it goes back to the 99 recordings and Freeza in his first form sound slightly less awful but still awful) but the actors who weren’t redubbed like Schemmel and Vollmer and Sabat’s non-Vegeta and Kami roles sound as terrible as ever with the crappy cheap 1999 equipment clashing with the improved 2007 recording equipment. Some of the stupid dialog is fixed but most is left as is (the most egregious example to me being having Young and Sabat redub the lame transformation countdown gag verbatim) so the one single solitary improvement ends up being restoring the Kikuchi score (which for some fans isn’t improvement either because they prefer the Faulconer score or think the Japanese score clashes with the dubs style of acting and writing)

I myself would go with the partial redub purely because I find the Kikuchi music makes the dub a more tolerable experience but its still terrible.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 51 - DBZ 65-69 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by ArmenianPepsi » Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:09 pm

KBABZ wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:34 pm
ArmenianPepsi wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:28 pm With how "Questionable" Season 3's quality is, it still goes to show the strength DB still has. Even when stuck with a terrible dub, with arguably worse writing than a lot of others children's shows at the time, and even worse than Saban's previous diluted scripts, something about it was still able to poke through it all and engross a generation of viewers.
That and Americans were captivated by spiky-haired men firings lasers from their hands.
You are right, indeed the spiky-hair dude turned golden and beat up the skinny white and purple alien guy. :lol:
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 51 - DBZ 65-69 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by KBABZ » Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:24 pm

ArmenianPepsi wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:09 pm
KBABZ wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:34 pm
ArmenianPepsi wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:28 pm With how "Questionable" Season 3's quality is, it still goes to show the strength DB still has. Even when stuck with a terrible dub, with arguably worse writing than a lot of others children's shows at the time, and even worse than Saban's previous diluted scripts, something about it was still able to poke through it all and engross a generation of viewers.
That and Americans were captivated by spiky-haired men firings lasers from their hands.
You are right, indeed the spiky-hair dude turned golden and beat up the skinny white and purple alien guy. :lol:
While I do agree that some base appeal of Dragon Ball did shine through, I don't think the story was really one of them outside of "moments" like Vegeta dying or Super Saiyan, between the terrible dub and the huge amounts of filler in the anime by this point obfuscating everything. While I wasn't watching the show at the time, I think the main appeal for the average American fan was that "Godzilla" factor of giant laser beams.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 51 - DBZ 65-69 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Robo4900 » Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:36 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:37 pm That would make sense. We know Ocean’s cast was working off Japanese tapes (Both Corlett and Kelamis mentioned occasionally referencing it) where allegedly the Funimation Studios cast was working off the Mexican dub (although considering the Mexican dub is apparently very faithful and it can’t be too difficult to find a Spanish to English translator in the state of Texas I don’t know) and actor complaints about having bad translations from Toei seem to be exclusively a Funimation Studios complaint.
The way I understand it is that they did indeed use tapes from Latin America with their dub being the only audio track the actors were able to listen to in the dubbing studio, but the translations were always from Japanese, either from Toei's shitty Engrish scripts, or scripts translated by Steve Simmons or Clyde Mandelin.

Chris Sabat said in his Geekdom interview a while back that, while the translations the in-house dub was initially working off of were quite bad, they were always translated from Japanese, not Spanish.
MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:37 pm It’s a pick your poison scenario really.
[...]
I myself would go with the partial redub purely because I find the Kikuchi music makes the dub a more tolerable experience but its still terrible.
Personally, I would go with the 1999 original so I can just slot it in for episodes 54-107/68-122 and watch the Vancouver dubs of all the rest. The other dubs don't fit in that gap quite so easily, and if I want an accurate take on Dragon Ball, I'll just watch the subtitled version instead.
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 51 - DBZ 65-69 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MyVisionity » Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:58 pm

Robo4900 wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:03 pm At the very least, the first DBZ DVDs to contain his subtitles would have been the September 2000 release of the Trunks singles (followed in October by the two Ginyu singles), which was around the time the Garlic Jr. saga was airing.
The first DVDs subbed by Simmons were the Ginyu discs released in June of 2000. That October date listed on the website is a mistake, I believe. I know those discs had errors but I cannot recall if there was ever a re-release.

The Garlic Junior saga first aired in the spring of 2000, while the Androids saga began in the Fall.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 51 - DBZ 65-69 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Dec 18, 2020 7:14 am

The Garlic Jr saga was part of season 3’s production order and were likely dubbed in 1999 so I’m guessing Simmons was hired between season 3 and 4 and was on hand by the time they started dubbing the “Trunks saga”

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 51 - DBZ 65-69 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Robo4900 » Fri Dec 18, 2020 10:54 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 7:14 am The Garlic Jr saga was part of season 3’s production order and were likely dubbed in 1999 so I’m guessing Simmons was hired between season 3 and 4 and was on hand by the time they started dubbing the “Trunks saga”
This makes a lot of sense, particularly if the production gap was at the same point that the Westwood dub began, since that would put the beginning of Simmons' work on the series after the "Cat loves food" scene, and it would explain why the Westwood dub began there of all places.
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 51 - DBZ 65-69 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Dec 23, 2020 9:57 am

No new thread this week. Sorry if that disappoints anyone. I considered going ahead with it anyway with the virus meaning Christmas won't be as busy as it would typically be, but KBABZ will be available for trivia next week, but not this week, so we'll have a more fully-featured thread next week than we've had the past few weeks, and it's easier for me if I don't have to scrounge up the trivia myself. :lol:

Naturally, I suppose anyone can watch ahead if they like, but officially Z episodes 70-74 are next week. The week after that will be Z movie 4.

So, happy Christmas to all those who celebrate it. :)
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 51 - DBZ 65-69 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Matches Malone » Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:00 am

Robo4900 wrote: Wed Dec 23, 2020 9:57 amOfficially Z episodes 70-74 are next week. The week after that will be Z movie 4.
Finally, in 2 weeks we'll be able to discuss the citizen Kane of anime, Lord Slug. :clap: :thumbup:

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