A couple questions...

SpaceKappa · Post by **SpaceKappa** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 6:44 pm

Because watching Goku fight puffy clouds = low ratings, I suppose.

Piccolo was also able to keep his body when he was sent to Hell to try to get Goku out.

In GT when all the old enemies were in line to see Enma-Daiou again I think they had puffs instead of legs as well.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 7:21 pm

I've figured it could be a 'force of will' kind of thing. Sort of like, you have to be willing to move on before you can. And those not willing retain their bodies until they are. Cause, all those little puff clouds seemed rather happy... I can't picture Frieza floating around as a puff cloud having fun....

Super Sonic · Post by **Super Sonic** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 11:23 pm

Since Goku didn't fall into Hell in the manga, do they even show any of this in the manga later down the road, or not? I've only seen the manga as far as SJ is currently.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:36 pm

Nothing of Hell is ever shown in the manga. We see puff-clouds going to Enma and puff-clouds when Goku's training in Heaven

Super Sonic · Post by **Super Sonic** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 12:25 pm

Also I don't know if anyone else noticed, but sometimes when the characters speak of Hell, they are doing so in a different way. What I mean is in dialogue that is in both the manga and anime, someone might will refer to Hell like the "Fire and Brimstone Eternal Torment Hell". Whereas the one they show in the anime, definately isn't.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 12:28 pm

In both versions, Hell is just a holding pen of your soul until a body is prepared to reincarnate you. But if you reincarnate you'll lose your sense of self so I can imagine why nobody exaclty wants to go to Hell.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 2:12 pm

But if they never show Hell in the manga, how'd you know that? Does someone say as much?

Deus ex Machina · Post by **Deus ex Machina** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 2:24 pm

Yes, Piccolo tells that to Vegeta just before he blows himself up to try and kill Majin Boo

"Just tell me one thing. Once I die, will I be able to meet Kakarrot again in the Other World, or whatever?"

"At a time like this, it's not going to help for me to speak in consolation, so i'll tell you directly-- That's not possible. You've killed too many sinless people. When you die, your body will become nothing, and your spirit will be carried to a different world than Goku's. There your spirit will be cleansed, your memory will be lost, and you will be changed into a new life form."

Of course this contradicts every scene that showed Freeza, Cell, King Cold, and the Ginyu force in Hell. But then maybe the really evil ones have to wait awhile before they get reincarnated, as part of their punishment?

SpaceKappa · Post by **SpaceKappa** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 2:26 pm

Wouldn't Vegeta know what Hell is like, since he had already died once before?

Deus ex Machina · Post by **Deus ex Machina** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 2:44 pm

You have a good point. I can think of a few different reasons why this didn't happen. Perhaps Vegeta haden't reached Hell yet; Freeza had been busy killing the entire Namekian race, so their could've been a line up, so he might have been wished back to life before even reach King Yamma. Or then again, maybe those who don't keep their bodies don't retain memories? After all if your just a puffy cloud you don't have a brain.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 2:44 pm

Deus ex Machina wrote: Of course this contradicts every scene that showed Freeza, Cell, King Cold, and the Ginyu force in Hell. But then maybe the really evil ones have to wait awhile before they get reincarnated, as part of their punishment?

Mind you, who cares? That scene was anime filler.

Mizugi wrote:Wouldn't Vegeta know what Hell is like, since he had already died once before?

I always wondered about that. Maybe he was still in line to go to Enma's before when he got brought back to life or something.

Deus ex Machina · Post by **Deus ex Machina** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 2:49 pm

I know you can't stand to hear it Dayspring, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to say it:

ANIME FILLER IS FACTUAL STORY EVIDENCE UNTIL IT CONTRADICTS THE MANGA!

Love it or hate it, you can debate it until your blue in the face, the fact still remains. Toriyama himself said he really LIKED the filler scenes that Toei placed in the anime. You can be a manga purist all you like, but the anime still counts.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:01 pm

Deus ex Machina wrote:I know you can't stand to hear it Dayspring, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to say it:

ANIME FILLER IS FACTUAL STORY EVIDENCE UNTIL IT CONTRADICTS THE MANGA!

Love it or hate it, you can debate it until your blue in the face, the fact still remains. Toriyama himself said he really LIKED the filler scenes that Toei placed in the anime. You can be a manga purist all you like, but the anime still counts.

But that's what I'm saying! This anime filler scene was contradicting the manga, so it shouldn't be factual story evidence in this case! YOU were even the one who brought up the fact that it contradicted what Piccolo said!

Deus ex Machina · Post by **Deus ex Machina** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:08 pm

That's true, but then I offered a theory that would explain why the villians haden't been "processed" yet.

Besides, I've seen your filler bashing before. I'm watching you friend.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:09 pm

I've been meaning to say this for a while, but:

Where exactly is the big list of "what's canon and not in DragonBall"? With Star Trek, it's easy to say, since the studio has an official policy on it. But does TOIE? Does Toriyama? Do they give a fuck? I really doubt it.

Post by **TripleRach** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 6:43 pm

For a lot of people, myself included, only the manga is canon. Even if Toriyama didn't hate the anime (the way Takeuchi hated the Sailor Moon anime), there was still a great deal of contradictory filler material in the TV shows. And of course, the movies don't really fit anywhere. We've also seen a few examples of the Daizenshuu containing information that contradicts things stated in both the anime and manga.

To me, it just seems a lot easier to consider only the manga canon. I'm not going to go around bashing anyone for bringing up anime-only events or anything, though.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 6:52 pm

Deus ex Machina wrote:That's true, but then I offered a theory that would explain why the villians haden't been "processed" yet.

Which was the same as mine. I wasn't challenging what you said, we just posted at the same time. At most you should have left a reply that said "great minds think alike" or something. Not point out the fault in what you originally said.

The S · Post by **The S** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 1:06 am

Take my rule to seed:

Take nothing within Dragonball as canon!

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:45 pm

The S wrote:Take my rule to seed:

Take nothing within Dragonball as canon!

Seriously. Even the manga has stuff that contradicted the manga.

The S · Post by **The S** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 11:54 pm

Exactly. You can't take everything as canon with a man as forgetful as Toriyama.

Kanzenshuu

A couple questions...

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