Does anyone else feel that much of the DB fandom enforces low standards?

[LoganForkHands73]

I think we should all step back from fandom and just like what we like how we like it. I know there's a need to share that love but I am really beginning to suspect that forums and the like are not the place for that. Fandom cannot be some all-consuming aspect of our lives. I guess that's funny to hear from a woman who has spent literally half of her life on this forum and has 13,000+ posts but it is definitely something that has come to my mind the older I get, the more responsibilities I get of importance and the like.

Basically, fuck fandom, hang with your friends and fuck everyone else.

Aye, I pretty much share the opinion on fandom overall but I do generally prefer discussion-based forums to, say, your average hentai-filled subreddit. I think overly specialised ones like this can be slightly annoying though, as everybody just wants to talk about Dragon Ball. I like talking about other shit I enjoy, and Dragon Ball doesn't exist in a vacuum. I enjoy chats about the media that have inspired/been inspired from Dragon Ball most of all but hardly anyone apart from the culture-minded alumni seems to care.

[kemuri07]

I like Z and feel Z is a far superior product than Super, while also acknowledging Z is nowhere near perfect and that various shows (that are not Super) have improved on the formula.

It's called acting like a grown adult.


freaking fart suckers.

[kemuri07]

I think we should all step back from fandom and just like what we like how we like it. I know there's a need to share that love but I am really beginning to suspect that forums and the like are not the place for that. Fandom cannot be some all-consuming aspect of our lives. I guess that's funny to hear from a woman who has spent literally half of her life on this forum and has 13,000+ posts but it is definitely something that has come to my mind the older I get, the more responsibilities I get of importance and the like.

Basically, fuck fandom, hang with your friends and fuck everyone else.

I think that's a bigger problem with fandom and explains so much of the toxicity surrounding fandom. Yes, there's something inspiring about media that helps people go through some tough times. The problem is where liking a specific media becomes a personality trait--and that's it. That's dangerous because there's no self-awareness at all. Dragon Ball at the end of the day is just a cartoon. It's not that important. Star Wars is not that important. It's just mindless consumption we throw money at so we can distract ourselves from the feebleness of our lives.

[RobertDaDon]

I like Z and feel Z is a far superior product than Super, while also acknowledging Z is nowhere near perfect and that various shows (that are not Super) have improved on the formula.

It's called acting like a grown adult.


freaking fart suckers.

This is also how I feel on the subject.

Also, many fans do go out of there way to shield criticism of the franchise, especially when being compared to other anime and manga.

[Nightbane]

I’ll probably be crucified for this but I don’t care. Super is much, MUCH better than Z ever was. This is coming from someone who’s been a fan in the early 90’s before the Z dub was even a thing. Outside of the Saiyan and Namek arcs, Z is incredibly dull and boring with barely any humor at all.

Super brought back a ton of the goofy humor from DB, and it’s just overall so much fun. Like I’m honestly shocked and confused when I see people say Z was vastly better than Super when no...no it wasn’t lol. Z is pretty much unwatchable garbage with garbage characters. Only Vegeta and Freeza are worth mentioning, definitely a 2/10 while Super is a 7/10.

[SupremeKai25]

I’ll probably be crucified for this but I don’t care. Super is much, MUCH better than Z ever was. This is coming from someone who’s been a fan in the early 90’s before the Z dub was even a thing. Outside of the Saiyan and Namek arcs, Z is incredibly dull and boring with barely any humor at all.

Super brought back a ton of the goofy humor from DB, and it’s just overall so much fun. Like I’m honestly shocked and confused when I see people say Z was vastly better than Super when no...no it wasn’t lol. Z is pretty much unwatchable garbage with garbage characters. Only Vegeta and Freeza are worth mentioning, definitely a 2/10 while Super is a 7/10.

Actually I agree with you. Some people on these forums always think that the original being better than Super is a fact, but it really isn't. Personally Super did a lot of things BETTER than the original, like having more complex/compelling antagonists, having more plot twists, and having more inter-connected story arcs.

This thread almost feels like an echo chamber. People in here think that Z being better than Super is an empirical fact, when it is just an opinion. Even the title is kind of annoying, since the OP takes for granted that anyone with standards would think that Super is bad... it's kind of insulting, really, because it presumes that anyone who likes Super is an idiot with low standards.

[TobyS]

The trouble is so many fandoms are fucking regressive little be babies cannibalising their own nostalgia to survive.

It's not they demand low standards, it's the reverse. it's that there's a number of whales who will buy anything no matter how bad it is.

The don't need to hire good writers or animators if they don't want to as long as 40 year old men will spend hundreds of dollars on dolls why give us spin offs about about characters that can't transform or lore and history stuff when they can just fuse two saiyans together or change their hair colour or whatever.

[VegettoEX]

I (once again) want to advise against using crutch phrases like "gatekeeping" and "echo chamber" when that's not happening, and when those are in fact dangerous things that do actually happen to vulnerable audiences.

If you have an active conversation with varying degrees of both agreement and disagreement, there is inherently no echo chamber happening.

Disagreeing with the premise of a thread is certainly an option (I've done the same), but again (again), a single person proposing a question does not then directly infer there is an "echo chamber".

[SupremeKai25]

Right, my mistake, I definitely chose the wrong word. I suppose my issue is more with the premise of this thread. I personally really enjoyed Super, so I think that neither the writers/producers nor the fandom have low standards.

[kemuri07]

I’ll probably be crucified for this but I don’t care. Super is much, MUCH better than Z ever was. This is coming from someone who’s been a fan in the early 90’s before the Z dub was even a thing. Outside of the Saiyan and Namek arcs, Z is incredibly dull and boring with barely any humor at all.

Super brought back a ton of the goofy humor from DB, and it’s just overall so much fun. Like I’m honestly shocked and confused when I see people say Z was vastly better than Super when no...no it wasn’t lol. Z is pretty much unwatchable garbage with garbage characters. Only Vegeta and Freeza are worth mentioning, definitely a 2/10 while Super is a 7/10.

Actually I agree with you. Some people on these forums always think that the original being better than Super is a fact, but it really isn't. Personally Super did a lot of things BETTER than the original, like having more complex/compelling antagonists, having more plot twists, and having more inter-connected story arcs.

This thread almost feels like an echo chamber. People in here think that Z being better than Super is an empirical fact, when it is just an opinion. Even the title is kind of annoying, since the OP takes for granted that anyone with standards would think that Super is bad... it's kind of insulting, really, because it presumes that anyone who likes Super is an idiot with low standards.

lol.

Yes believing that Z "is" an opinion, but it's one that people can generally prove because of the lasting effects that Dragon Ball Z has had on pop culture--something that you really can't say with Super. No one is dismissing your right to enjoying Super, but Super better than Z?

Nah.

[VegettoEX]

ol.

Yes believing that Z "is" an opinion, but it's one that people can generally prove because of the lasting effects that Dragon Ball Z has had on pop culture--something that you really can't say with Super. No one is dismissing your right to enjoying Super, but Super better than Z?

Nah.

You're (rudely / dismissively / unacceptably) saying (at least) two different contradictory things:

- "You can't prove Super hasn't had lasting effects"
- "Z *has* had a lasting effect so therefore _______"

OK, but Super's television adaptation has only been off the air for a couple years and its manga storyline is still going.

Literally noooooooo-ooooooooooooooooone liked the Faulconer Productions score... until the people who were too young to be online suddenly came online years and years later en masse and told us that a large group of people did, in fact, actually, truly like that score.

I've seen people say they "grew up on Kai".

Give Super time to actually fester before you dismiss it outright.

(I say this all as someone who also does agree that Super doesn't come even remotely close to the je ne sais quoi of the original story.)

[SupremeKai25]

I never understood that argument. It's like in Star Wars discussions when fans of the Originals try to shut down Prequel fans by saying things like "The Originals are better because they had a bigger legacy/impact". It's just logical, one series is much, much older than the other, so of course it will have a much bigger impact in the present day.

Who knows how the wider anime fandom will view Super 5 or 10 years from now, it's too early to judge. Especially since Super is an ongoing story.

I'd also argue that something doesn't have to be better just because it had a bigger impact really.

[Planetnamek]

Definitely not true that literally nobody liked the Faulconer score. That's extreme hyperbole that literally impossible to prove. Maybe everyone in your circle hated it, but that's certainly not true for every single person on earth that watched the dub when it originally aired.

[MasenkoHA]

Definitely not true that literally nobody liked the Faulconer score. That's extreme hyperbole that literally impossible to prove. Maybe everyone in your circle hated it, but that's certainly not true for every single person on earth that watched the dub when it originally aired.

I feel like you’re taking what he’s saying out of context?

The Faulconer score was universally hated by the online fandom back in circa 1999/2000 which consisted mostly of A. Fans of the original Japanese version who had watched the series with subbed bootlegs or raw on the International Channel B. Fans of Funimation’s first two seasons with the Ocean cast and Saban music who were old enough to notice the blatant and unmistakable drop in acting quality in season 3 and C. Fans who started as B but then progressed to A.


The target audience of 5-10 year olds who came after the cast and music change or were young enough to not notice or care when these changed happen weren’t taking part in the online discourse and discussion back then but obviously they liked the Faulconer music because now they’re the ones saying stuff like “Faulconer made Dragon Ball Z!” “I can’t watch Dragon Ball Z without Faulconer’s music!” and those people did not exist (at least online in forums) back in 2000


Just like when Kai came out the majority of online discourse was either A. Older fans who were nostalgic for Z on Cartoon Network and hated how cleaned up Kao was for KidsWb and assumed that’s how Kai was intended to be. B. Fans who were aware of the uncut
version and argued in favor of Kai’s improved dub quality. But all of this was argued from the point of view of fans who have seen Z first and now we have a slew of fans online where Kai was their entry point to the franchise .

[Planetnamek]

Definitely not true that literally nobody liked the Faulconer score. That's extreme hyperbole that literally impossible to prove. Maybe everyone in your circle hated it, but that's certainly not true for every single person on earth that watched the dub when it originally aired.

I feel like you’re taking what he’s saying out of context?

The Faulconer score was universally hated by the online fandom back in circa 1999/2000 which consisted mostly of A. Fans of the original Japanese version who had watched the series with subbed bootlegs or raw on the International Channel B. Fans of Funimation’s first two seasons with the Ocean cast and Saban music who were old enough to notice the blatant and unmistakable drop in acting quality in season 3 and C. Fans who started as B but then progressed to A.


The target audience of 5-10 year olds who came after the cast and music change or were young enough to not notice or care when these changed happen weren’t taking part in the online discourse and discussion back then but obviously they liked the Faulconer music because now they’re the ones saying stuff like “Faulconer made Dragon Ball Z!” “I can’t watch Dragon Ball Z without Faulconer’s music!” and those people did not exist (at least online in forums) back in 2000


Just like when Kai came out the majority of online discourse was either A. Older fans who were nostalgic for Z on Cartoon Network and hated how cleaned up Kao was for KidsWb and assumed that’s how Kai was intended to be. B. Fans who were aware of the uncut
version and argued in favor of Kai’s improved dub quality. But all of this was argued from the point of view of fans who have seen Z first and now we have a slew of fans online where Kai was their entry point to the franchise .

OK fair enough, though I still think universally hated is a bit of an overstatement as a lot of the people on the Planet Namek forums were definitely older then that and they seemed to like the Faulconer score. Perhaps it was universally hated among those online that saw the original Japanese version first, but for those that didn't see it first I imagine at least some of them unironically enjoyed that score.

[kemuri07]

To necro one of my old posts here...

Part of the reason why I'm pretty damn certain that Super will never reach the cultural impact that Z had is due to a number reason. Most of which is that Super is an uninspired sequel that leans heavily on regurgitating its past to keep the brand going.

But more importantly--it's timing. To simply say that the reason why DB/Z is more beloved or culturally relevant than (either of) its sequels is because it's "Older" is an oversimplification of DBZ cultural impact in general. Again, timing. When DBZ was released in the 80s, that specific context is so important in discussing why DBZ took the world by storm. It's not simply that DB was popular--it was everywhere. It road a perfect storm of being some of the first anime that audiences outside of Japan were able to consume. I'm not talking about popularity; of course Super is popular, it's based on a world famous franchise. I'm talking about impact. The kind of impact in which all you have to say is "Kamehameha," and even people who've never watch a single episode of anime know what you're talking about; the kind of impact in which imagery from DBZ is found in not only hundreds of different japanese media, but also in western media as well and is immediately recognizable. That's impact. And that's something that Super will likely never have.

Why? Mostly because it's trash. But also again--timing. Super came out at a time in which Anime is so easily obtainable compared to the 1990s. Super is just another shounen in a sea of Shounen anime that is released on a seasonal basis. Not only that, but in the years since DBZ went off air and the release of Super, there have been plenty of Shounen that not only perfected the DB formula, there's plenty of anime that I'd argue is better than DBZ. People are experiencing Super with that in mind: What does Super bring to the table? Z was shocking in its revelations about Goku's origins, killing off the Hero people had been following for years in the very first arc, and completely warped the tone of DB to become one of the most popular animated franchises of all time. Super is just more of that. That's the problem. There's nothing wrong with that, and if all you want is more DB, Super is more than willing to give you that. But the audience has moved on and are hungry for better anime.

So you can be waiting 5, 10, 20, 30 years--Super is never going to have that same effect.

[Planetnamek]

To necro one of my old posts here...

Part of the reason why I'm pretty damn certain that Super will never reach the cultural impact that Z had is due to a number reason. Most of which is that Super is an uninspired sequel that leans heavily on regurgitating its past to keep the brand going.

But more importantly--it's timing. To simply say that the reason why DB/Z is more beloved or culturally relevant than (either of) its sequels is because it's "Older" is an oversimplification of DBZ cultural impact in general. Again, timing. When DBZ was released in the 80s, that specific context is so important in discussing why DBZ took the world by storm. It's not simply that DB was popular--it was everywhere. It road a perfect storm of being some of the first anime that audiences outside of Japan were able to consume. I'm not talking about popularity; of course Super is popular, it's based on a world famous franchise. I'm talking about impact. The kind of impact in which all you have to say is "Kamehameha," and even people who've never watch a single episode of anime know what you're talking about; the kind of impact in which imagery from DBZ is found in not only hundreds of different japanese media, but also in western media as well and is immediately recognizable. That's impact. And that's something that Super will likely never have.

Why? Mostly because it's trash. But also again--timing. Super came out at a time in which Anime is so easily obtainable compared to the 1990s. Super is just another shounen in a sea of Shounen anime that is released on a seasonal basis. Not only that, but in the years since DBZ went off air and the release of Super, there have been plenty of Shounen that not only perfected the DB formula, there's plenty of anime that I'd argue is better than DBZ. People are experiencing Super with that in mind: What does Super bring to the table? Z was shocking in its revelations about Goku's origins, killing off the Hero people had been following for years in the very first arc, and completely warped the tone of DB to become one of the most popular animated franchises of all time. Super is just more of that. That's the problem. There's nothing wrong with that, and if all you want is more DB, Super is more than willing to give you that. But the audience has moved on and are hungry for better anime.

So you can be waiting 5, 10, 20, 30 years--Super is never going to have that same effect.

Not to mention it came to America right when the internet was just starting to take off in popularity, which made it perfect for fan-sites on place like AOL and Geocities.

[ABED]

Super won't have the impact the original DB made not because of any perceived or real lack of quality, but because of the very simple fact that Super came into a world where DB already existed and has inspired numerous other stories and spawned a lot of imitators.

How many revivals can you point to that are as good, vital, and impactful as a show during its original run?

[kemuri07]

Super won't have the impact the original DB made not because of any perceived or real lack of quality, but because of the very simple fact that Super came into a world where DB already existed and has inspired numerous other stories and spawned a lot of imitators.

How many revivals can you point to that are as good, vital, and impactful as a show during its original run?

That. Yeah...that.

[MrSatan2099]

Super won't have the impact the original DB made not because of any perceived or real lack of quality, but because of the very simple fact that Super came into a world where DB already existed and has inspired numerous other stories and spawned a lot of imitators.

How many revivals can you point to that are as good, vital, and impactful as a show during its original run?

That. Yeah...that.

I agree and I believe to that the established fan base is never going to be in a position for something to have the same impact on them. For a tv series or movie to really stick with you and create genuine fandom for a property it has to hit you in the right place and at the right time.

Personally, I'm not in any kind of shape to let my fandom consume me like it did decades ago when I was drawing pictures of Goku and Freeza in all of my school notebooks. I don't have the time or energy for that level of enthusiasm. Conversely, my nine year old who's watching Super just after he's finished Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z thinks it's the coolest thing ever. Will he see it in any different light from the other two when he gets older? Difficult to say. There are fans who feel like the series goes off the rails after the Freeza arc, or after the Cell arc. There's a tremendous sliding scale of standards.