Does anyone else feel that much of the DB fandom enforces low standards?

[kemuri07]

Super won't have the impact the original DB made not because of any perceived or real lack of quality, but because of the very simple fact that Super came into a world where DB already existed and has inspired numerous other stories and spawned a lot of imitators.

How many revivals can you point to that are as good, vital, and impactful as a show during its original run?

That. Yeah...that.

I agree and I believe to that the established fan base is never going to be in a position for something to have the same impact on them. For a tv series or movie to really stick with you and create genuine fandom for a property it has to hit you in the right place and at the right time.

Personally, I'm not in any kind of shape to let my fandom consume me like it did decades ago when I was drawing pictures of Goku and Freeza in all of my school notebooks. I don't have the time or energy for that level of enthusiasm. Conversely, my nine year old who's watching Super just after he's finished Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z thinks it's the coolest thing ever. Will he see it in any different light from the other two when he gets older? Difficult to say. There are fans who feel like the series goes off the rails after the Freeza arc, or after the Cell arc. There's a tremendous sliding scale of standards.

Oh god, I remember waking up like at 6am on weekends just to go on the internet to pour through internet fansites, or watch a DBZ amv for the nth fucking time. But I think it is different for kids now. When I was 9, stuff like DBZ felt like the outlier; watching "cartoons?" that was baby shit. Now it's the norm. Now your nine year old can easily go on netflix and watch a crap ton of anime. And he lives in a world in which western cartoons have drastically moved towards the type of storytelling regularly featured in anime. It's a different world now.

I come here mostly to discuss the franchise at large, the meta criticism of DBZ, as well as the anime industry in general. I don't really care about the specifics of DBZ anymore because it doesn't really matter to me.

[ArmenianPepsi]

The trouble is so many fandoms are fucking regressive little be babies cannibalising their own nostalgia to survive.

It's not they demand low standards, it's the reverse. it's that there's a number of whales who will buy anything no matter how bad it is.

The don't need to hire good writers or animators if they don't want to as long as 40 year old men will spend hundreds of dollars on dolls why give us spin offs about about characters that can't transform or lore and history stuff when they can just fuse two saiyans together or change their hair colour or whatever.

Thinking over the OP title's question again, I think this post here can encapsulate my personal opinion.

Not every DB fan is willing to just sit down and accept the stale mediocrity the franchise has been delivering. One peek on Kanzenshuu will prove that, most people I see here are fans who would not hesitate to climb over mountain tops, swim up a roaring stream, and walk through an arctic blizzard to let their voice be heard and to demand better. Which is good.

It's just that for every 1 fan who would do so, there are 10 fans who won't ask questions. People who just accept whatever comes out, who won't carry higher standards, who have no hesitations of letting corporate suits stick an IV tube in their wallets and erode at these beloved properties, and will go out of their way to defend the greedy tactless decisions the IP holders make even though the corporate suits have none of their interests at heart. They will just see the logo, and consume whatever it is slapped onto.

This isn't just DB, plenty of other current long-running franchises are falling to the same fate today. Marvel, DC, Star Wars, Star Trek, Doctor Who, etc, the complacent whales outnumber people who demand better, so things are catered to them.

[SupremeKai25]

Or maybe, you know, the show is just good.

And people find it good.

And the people who find it good are just that. People who find it good. Not "whales" who are "ruining the franchise" or anything like that.

I don't see why you people should be calling "whales" and other insults those who just enjoy the show.

[ABED]

The trouble is so many fandoms are fucking regressive little be babies cannibalising their own nostalgia to survive.

It's not they demand low standards, it's the reverse. it's that there's a number of whales who will buy anything no matter how bad it is.

The don't need to hire good writers or animators if they don't want to as long as 40 year old men will spend hundreds of dollars on dolls why give us spin offs about about characters that can't transform or lore and history stuff when they can just fuse two saiyans together or change their hair colour or whatever.

Thinking over the OP title's question again, I think this post here can encapsulate my personal opinion.

Not every DB fan is willing to just sit down and accept the stale mediocrity the franchise has been delivering. One peek on Kanzenshuu will prove that, most people I see here are fans who would not hesitate to climb over mountain tops, swim up a roaring stream, and walk through an arctic blizzard to let their voice be heard and to demand better. Which is good.

It's just that for every 1 fan who would do so, there are 10 fans who won't ask questions. People who just accept whatever comes out, who won't carry higher standards, who have no hesitations of letting corporate suits stick an IV tube in their wallets and erode at these beloved properties, and will go out of their way to defend the greedy tactless decisions the IP holders make even though the corporate suits have none of their interests at heart. They will just see the logo, and consume whatever it is slapped onto.

This isn't just DB, plenty of other current long-running franchises are falling to the same fate today. Marvel, DC, Star Wars, Star Trek, Doctor Who, etc, the complacent whales outnumber people who demand better, so things are catered to them.

But thankfully there are people like you out there who demand more artistic integrity. Fight the power! The power of giving people more of the characters they love?

Many of the people here who thumb their nose at Super also watch it all and anything else that comes out. So what speaks louder, what they write on an internet forum or what they watch?

What the hell is with you calling people "whales"? What does that mean in this context?

[Nagyzöld]

Many of the people here who thumb their nose at Super also watch it all and anything else that comes out. So what speaks louder, what they write on an internet forum or what they watch?

You couldn't know you don't like something and why, unless you watch it first, right? And if you go online to discuss pros and cons with fans, without watching it in its integrity, you can't voice an opinion without coming off as misinformed. Besides, since Super is depicted as canon, of course anyone who's been a big fan of DB and DBZ is curious to see where the story is headed. And even if it starts off as bad, if it reedems itself later on. This is why I've been watching DBS (not necessarily every single damn thing that came out with it) and I don't feel sorry about it. It's not such a big of a deal.

why give us spin offs about about characters that can't transform or lore and history stuff when they can just fuse two saiyans together or change their hair colour or whatever.

I only quoted this part of the post because the rest was unnecessarily hateful.

Yes, I agree. I can't get this continuous excitement over "GoKu'S gOt A nEw FoRm" thing. It was fine the first, second, third, maybe fourth times but now it's pretty much a thing to be expected. Like, Goku is in a pinch, what do you honestly think will happen? And it became lazy and unimaginative. As I've been watching DBS my main thought was that they've given in to fanservice, to sum it up.

[ABED]

Many of the people here who thumb their nose at Super also watch it all and anything else that comes out. So what speaks louder, what they write on an internet forum or what they watch?

You couldn't know you don't like something and why, unless you watch it first, right? And if you go online to discuss pros and cons with fans, without watching it in its integrity, you can't voice an opinion without coming off as misinformed. Besides, since Super is depicted as canon, of course anyone who's been a big fan of DB and DBZ is curious to see where the story is headed. And even if it starts off as bad, if it reedems itself later on. This is why I've been watching DBS (not necessarily every single damn thing that came out with it) and I don't feel sorry about it. It's not such a big of a deal.

why give us spin offs about about characters that can't transform or lore and history stuff when they can just fuse two saiyans together or change their hair colour or whatever.

I only quoted this part of the post because the rest was unnecessarily hateful.

Yes, I agree. I can't get this continuous excitement over "GoKu'S gOt A nEw FoRm" thing. It was fine the first, second, third, maybe fourth times but now it's pretty much a thing to be expected. Like, Goku is in a pinch, what do you honestly think will happen? And it became lazy and unimaginative. As I've been watching DBS my main thought was that they've given in to fanservice, to sum it up.

I get your point but if you watch everything then your wallet speaks louder than what you say. If you don't enjoy something, at some point it makes sense to stop and if enough people stop that will say way more to them than what you say here. Besides, quality is subjective, and opinions can change so given all that I see no reason to put more weight on fan feedback than their willingness to buy.

I imagine streaming does skew things quite a bit. The marginal cost of me watching Super on Hulu is practically 0. I'm far more likely to watch it because it's there than if I had to search it out and buy it on home video.

[MasenkoHA]

You couldn't know you don't like something and why, unless you watch it first, right?

Sure, but there’s a difference between checking out a few episodes before determining you hate it and watching the entire 131 episode series.

Yes, I agree. I can't get this continuous excitement over "GoKu'S gOt A nEw FoRm" thing. It was fine the first, second, third, maybe fourth times but now it's pretty much a thing to be expected. Like, Goku is in a pinch, what do you honestly think will happen? And it became lazy and unimaginative. As I've been watching DBS my main thought was that they've given in to fanservice, to sum it up.

No how often has that actually happened? Again Freeza when he went Super Saiyan? And Super Saiyan 4 in GT against Baby .He acquired level 2 and 3 off screen and debuted them in pretty inconsequential fights. Super Saiyan God and Ultra Instinct didn’t win him victories either. The big punchline in Battle of Gods was even after fulfilling an ancient prophecy and becoming a deity he still was nowhere near Beerus in power much less Whis. Ultra Instinct only allowed him to catch up with Jiren

[Tai Lung]

I've notice over the years that much of the fandom seems to knee-jerkingly dismiss any suggestions on ways to improve the writing of the series, even when they themselves are highly critical of it. For instance, many such suggestions are often dismissed with inane responses like "Dragonball is not an ensemble", "Toriyama wouldn't approve", "this is a kids series" or "lore is not story" when nobody was even mentioning lore lmao. Its like these enforce low standards on the series.

Does anyone else feel this way?

What happens when there is a difference of opinion? How do you know when one is wrong or not when you refuse to accept the opinion of the other ... not everyone wants the same that is what one has to accept first

[Ringworm128]

I think there should be a balance. Like there's nothing wrong with analyzing a show and it's fandoms but people have been taking it way too far. I've noticed the past couple of years there's been this huge influx of people heavy into geek culture hitting their 30-40's and suddenly trying to act over-analytical and insert political and social discourse into fandoms that have nothing to do with those things. It's as if they're having a sort of mid-life crisis and feel embarrassed of the fact all they know is some pop culture thing, and desperately need to prove how "mature and enlightened they are." It's how we ended up with shit like 3 hour videos titled "The Problem With Mario Kart and Society" and "It's time for the Naruto fandom to grow up."

I think we should all step back from fandom and just like what we like how we like it. I know there's a need to share that love but I am really beginning to suspect that forums and the like are not the place for that. Fandom cannot be some all-consuming aspect of our lives. I guess that's funny to hear from a woman who has spent literally half of her life on this forum and has 13,000+ posts but it is definitely something that has come to my mind the older I get, the more responsibilities I get of importance and the like.

Basically, fuck fandom, hang with your friends and fuck everyone else.

I do agree and honestly feel like just enjoying my Dragonbox and season set DVD's in my dark room in peace, and talking about the series with friends. But I think online fandoms are kind of inherently inevitable. People with the same interests will flock together, and if you talk about Dragon Ball, you'll most likely meat Dragon Ball fans online and the chain will just keep going on from there.

[ABED]

I think there should be a balance. Like there's nothing wrong with analyzing a show and it's fandoms but people have been taking it way too far. I've noticed the past couple of years there's been this huge influx of people heavy into geek culture hitting their 30-40's and suddenly trying to act over-analytical and insert political and social discourse into fandoms that have nothing to do with those things. It's as if they're having a sort of mid-life crisis and feel embarrassed of the fact all they know is some pop culture thing, and desperately need to prove "how mature they are." It's how we ended up with shit like 3 hour videos titled "The Problem With Mario Kart and Society."

This and there's this pervasive idea that you can objectively analyze art.

[JulieYBM]

Political analysis of art is a tried-and-true thing that has existed since there has been art. Art is informed by our beliefs about the world, it is impossible for one's politics to not have some degree of influence on said work. Hell, just to take a light example from Dragon Ball: Freeza is based on Toriyama's hatred of real estate. Our beliefs on morality is political. The message we send, who we send it to and how we send it matter in art.

There's nothing wrong with analyzing art when it's for something of actual substance and not, say, having a cactus up your ass over The Last Jedi making their old, boring protagonist kind of a grumpy old man or whatever lame shit people complain about.

[ABED]

Politics and ethics are important and they absolutely belong in art and analysis, but they aren't the end all when it comes to analyzing art.

Interesting that you bring up people taking issue with a certain character in a popular franchise because I don't think that's lame at all. It's discussing character - the most important part of a story. What would characters do and why matter. It's far more important than things like power scaling.

[JulieYBM]

There are plenty of other things that also matter in analyzing art but again, that 'also' is in addition to the politics of the work. I don't just think, say, Zack Snyder is a godawful director, I think the politics that influence his art is awful (Curio/ThemboPosting does an excellent analysis of this).

The point about The Last Jedi is my being critical of the fervor over how the film takes the piss out of Star Wars being an excuse for cishet white males to throw hissy fits over it and blame 'the SJWs' or whatever nonsense they're on this week. I'm honestly trying my best to just not engage with fandom anger these days because Christ, I'm on a diet.

[ABED]

Snyder is not an objectivist.

[super michael]

For me my answer would be I both like and dislike DBS anime, but when it comes to DBS manga I have to say I like it a lot. As for DBS movies I enjoy them, I know BoG and RoF are DBZ movies but they are enjoyable.

When I watched Dragon Ball Super I enjoyed it, the times I didn't enjoy was the 100% forbidding moment with Goten and Trunks. This got so predictable that it was annoying, something that never happened in DBZ. Then there is keeping secret which never happened. In DBZ if someone was weak, then they wouldn't get forced to fight but in DBS even if someone retired like Krillin they force him to quit retirement and fight.

DBS is a fighting anime not the forbidden show.

Maybe if it wasn't for all the teasing, then I wouldn't dislike DBS.

As for the gag maybe if they spread the gag and not just be Goku 99% of the time then it would be funny. Remember Krillin thinking Uppa was a girl but Goku knew he was a boy? That was unexpecting and funny. What about Yamcha and his battle with Kami, there was gags but it was funny.

DBS anime is inferior than DB and DBZ in many ways.

[Planetnamek]

There are plenty of other things that also matter in analyzing art but again, that 'also' is in addition to the politics of the work. I don't just think, say, Zack Snyder is a godawful director, I think the politics that influence his art is awful (Curio/ThemboPosting does an excellent analysis of this).

The point about The Last Jedi is my being critical of the fervor over how the film takes the piss out of Star Wars being an excuse for cishet white males to throw hissy fits over it and blame 'the SJWs' or whatever nonsense they're on this week. I'm honestly trying my best to just not engage with fandom anger these days because Christ, I'm on a diet.

I'm definitely no fan of Ayn Rand but i'm still able to enjoy Snyder's films inspite of my strong dislike for Objectivism.

It's amusing to hear people asking to "take politics out of" popular media, even if said media is extremely political like the Metal Gear Solid games, I wonder how those people ever thought a series like that WASN'T political.

[LoganForkHands73]

As much as I'm inclined to agree with the sentiment that all art is political, that adage is not very useful or interesting by itself. Sure, all art is produced by people who are shaped by their own social backgrounds, that's fairly self-explanatory, but that doesn't mean every piece of art exists purely to make a political statement. You're of course free to make political interpretations of anything but I'd struggle to see anything insightful to be found in Teletubbies, for instance.

When it comes to politics in Dragon Ball, I see some juiciness regarding the Saiyan social class system which has been a through line in all media focusing on their society since they were introduced, plus with Freeza's intergalactic business model reflecting the state of the Japanese economic bubble as real estate speculators would aggressively reap up worthless properties then wait for their value to increase before selling them off at higher prices.

[ABED]

As much as I'm inclined to agree with the sentiment that all art is political, that adage is not very useful or interesting by itself. Sure, all art is produced by people who are shaped by their own social backgrounds, that's fairly self-explanatory, but that doesn't mean every piece of art exists purely to make a political statement. You're of course free to make political interpretations of anything but I'd struggle to see anything insightful to be found in Teletubbies, for instance.

When it comes to politics in Dragon Ball, I see some juiciness regarding the Saiyan social class system which has been a through line in all media focusing on their society since they were introduced, plus with Freeza's intergalactic business model reflecting the state of the Japanese economic bubble as real estate speculators would aggressively reap up worthless properties then wait for their value to increase before selling them off at higher prices.

This as well. Freeza being influenced by land sharks is a nice bit of trivia but little more than that. When people trot it out as "see DB is political" feels insubstantial and more of a gotcha. What is far more interesting than those bits of trivia are how they are utilized within the narrative. The social hierarchy of the Saiyan race plays into the central theme of theme the series. That's strong writing.

DBZ if someone was weak, then they wouldn't get forced to fight but in DBS even if someone retired like Krillin they force him to quit retirement and fight.

Now you are looking for reasons to dislike it. First, Kuririn wasn't forced to come out of retirement. Goku asked him and after that vision quest thing, Kuririn's fighting spirit was reborn. But most importantly, just because something didn't happen before doesn't mean it wouldn't, couldn't, or shouldn't. Sometimes it's just a new progression in the story. And how many people retired from fighting in DB?

[LoganForkHands73]

This as well. Freeza being influenced by land sharks is a nice bit of trivia but little more than that. When people trot it out as "see DB is political" feels insubstantial and more of a gotcha. What is far more interesting than those bits of trivia are how they are utilized within the narrative. The social hierarchy of the Saiyan race plays into the central theme of theme the series. That's strong writing.

Yeah, exactly. One of Toriyama's main writing strengths is his ability to convey simple concepts in fun, digestible ways. Sometimes this may include mild social or political allegories (as much as he denies it), but more often than not, it's all there to benefit the story and action rather than to make a complex statement on reality. Sometimes through that approach, Toriyama does end up making pretty astute points that can be applied to reality, like how Mr. Satan embodies blind celebrity worship culture, a theme he would revisit in Jaco. That alone wouldn't have been interesting if Mr. Satan wasn't an entertaining character who ended up saving the universe by weaponizing his own star image.

[super michael]

Now you are looking for reasons to dislike it. First, Kuririn wasn't forced to come out of retirement. Goku asked him and after that vision quest thing, Kuririn's fighting spirit was reborn. But most importantly, just because something didn't happen before doesn't mean it wouldn't, couldn't, or shouldn't. Sometimes it's just a new progression in the story. And how many people retired from fighting in DB?

To answer that last question not a lot, here are the official retired fighters in DB and DBZ:

Master Roshi
Krillin (that is why he let his hair grow)
Yamcha
Gohan (was mentioned in DBZ RoF and in DBS when Chi Chi does the Kaioken aura)

In the episode of Goku trying to light Krillin fighting spirit, Krillin made it obvious that he didn't want to fight anymore, but no Goku wanted Krillin to return to fighting. In the anime they made Krillin into a major coward, something that they didn't do in DBS manga which is way better.

I would rather Goku focus training Goten and Trunks, rather than focus on Krillin and beg him to join the ToP. None of the humans dare to use the ROSAT or Gravity Chamber. Toei likes to tease the fans too much, which can get annoying.