“Kami taught Goku to value life”

[WittyUsername]

Where exactly did this misconception come from? Obviously, there is nothing in the story to support this idea. I don’t even recall the FUNimation dub ever suggesting such a thing. If anything, that wouldn’t make any sense, considering that Kami trains Goku specifically so he could kill Piccolo. Is it really just something fans came up with in order to explain why Goku objects to Vegeta killing the Ginyu Force?

[MasenkoHA]

....was this ever a thing? Like...ever? I didn’t know this misconception even existed.


Even if we follow dub logic Piccolo turning good is what made Goku more merciful towards his enemies. Pretty sure at least the 05 uncut dub had him use that line of reasoning for Goku telling Krillin to spare Vegeta.

[WittyUsername]

....was this ever a thing? Like...ever? I didn’t know this misconception even existed.


Even if we follow dub logic Piccolo turning good is what made Goku more merciful towards his enemies. Pretty sure at least the 05 uncut dub had him use that line of reasoning for Goku telling Krillin to spare Vegeta.

It is in fact a thing that’s been brought up on this very website before.

viewtopic.php?t=32055

[Ringworm128]

I think Goku not killing people just comes from him being a nice dude, not some Batman-esc "I mustn't kill" moral code. He's not blood thirsty, but if you attack him and he sees you as a threat he will end you unless he has a reason not to.

[Big Boss]

I'm almost certain this is never touched upon in the manga or any version of the anime. I think the most likely explanation is simply the level of discipline Goku attained during his training with Kami made him much more restraint and less chaotic with his emotions, not that Kami explicitly taught Goku anything about valuing life and not killing anyone. Goku was much more rash and impulsive before his training and regularly let his emotions get the better of him.

[ABED]

....was this ever a thing? Like...ever? I didn’t know this misconception even existed.


Even if we follow dub logic Piccolo turning good is what made Goku more merciful towards his enemies. Pretty sure at least the 05 uncut dub had him use that line of reasoning for Goku telling Krillin to spare Vegeta.

This and we know from dialog that Kami was barely involved in his training. And if this was something Toriyama meant to do, why wouldn't he have any character comment on it?

[jjgp1112]

....was this ever a thing? Like...ever? I didn’t know this misconception even existed.


Even if we follow dub logic Piccolo turning good is what made Goku more merciful towards his enemies. Pretty sure at least the 05 uncut dub had him use that line of reasoning for Goku telling Krillin to spare Vegeta.

I've seen it brought up in a few discussions over the years. It's basically just what people came up with as a plausible reason for his shift from murdering RRA guys and Piccolo's minions in cold blood to being more merciful.

Even though we never see evidence of this and if anything Kami was the most pragmatic of them all. He was down with killing Piccolo even if meant himself dying! He felt the need to step in because he thought Goku wasn't harsh ENOUGH! He wouldn't be teaching Goku the value of life if he needed the fucker to be fine with making him collateral damage.

The more logical explanation is that he just calmed down and became less impulsive.

[ABED]

Would we really consider killing those RRA soldiers to be murder or killing Piccolo's demons to be in cold blood?

The more logical explanation is that he just calmed down and became less impulsive.

Which could just be chalked up to brain chemistry.

[WittyUsername]

Goku definitely has a lax attitude about killing during the Red Ribbon Army portion of the story. As a matter of fact, when it comes to the original manga, the only time I recall Goku expressing any real qualms about killing bad guys is when he’s on Namek. Even after that point, he doesn’t seem to have any problem with Vegeta killing Pui Pui, and he himself kills Yakon. While we’re at it, Gohan’s big internal conflict during the Cell Games is that he doesn’t want to kill Cell, even though that’s what Goku wants him to do.

It seems reasonable to assume that the only reason Goku calls Vegeta out for killing the Ginyu Force is because Toriyama wanted to highlight how different Goku and Vegeta are. Generally speaking, Goku doesn’t have any code against offing bad guys.

[Kid Buu]

No, Kami trained Goku to kill Piccolo.

[WittyUsername]

No, Kami trained Goku to kill Piccolo.

I know. That’s why I called it a misconception.

[Kid Buu]

No, Kami trained Goku to kill Piccolo.

I know. That’s why I called it a misconception.

Hmm odd. Thought I typed more than that.

What I was going to say was - As I said in that other thread you linked, I don't think Goku's view on killing ever really changed. The way that scene that comes across to me is that Goku is taking offence because Vegeta is literally beating a man while he is down. Recoome wasn't even a threat at that point.

My guess is just some random fan on the internet said it and caught on. Like the memes about Toriyama forgetting Lunch or wanting to end the series with the Freeza saga.

[jjgp1112]

No, Kami trained Goku to kill Piccolo.

I know. That’s why I called it a misconception.

Hmm odd. Thought I typed more than that.

What I was going to say was - As I said in that other thread you linked, I don't think Goku's view on killing ever really changed. The way that scene that comes across to me is that Goku is taking offence because Vegeta is literally beating a man while he is down. Recoome wasn't even a threat at that point.

My guess is just some random fan on the internet said it and caught on. Like the memes about Toriyama forgetting Lunch or wanting to end the series with the Freeza saga.

I also think there's the fact that, Toei, as they were wont to do in the original anime run, greatly exaggerated Goku's merciful side in the movies. He gave that "I don't want to hurt you, so surrender!" spiel in like 5 straight movies.

But when he originally did it with Jeice and Burter it was less "I don't want to hurt you" and more "I will fuck you up."

[Anonymous Friend]

It can also be an extendion on his reasoning for letting Vegeta go.

Cain't fight dudes if they dead and he ain't.

[LoganForkHands73]

I also think there's the fact that, Toei, as they were wont to do in the original anime run, greatly exaggerated Goku's merciful side in the movies. He gave that "I don't want to hurt you, so surrender!" spiel in like 5 straight movies.

But when he originally did it with Jeice and Burter it was less "I don't want to hurt you" and more "I will fuck you up."

I dunno, Goku's comes across as more bloodthirsty in the movies if anything, he kills way more major enemies than in the actual series. Dr. Wheelo, Tullece, Slug, Android #13, Cooler (x2), Broly (x1.3?)... There seems to be an alignment with Toei's "Justice Goku" being more willing to kill irredeemable enemies.

Goku was slightly more brutal as a kid but people definitely exaggerate it. People say he went around slaughtering the Red Ribbon Army, he mostly just beat the shit out of them with ordinary attacks. He clearly killed some of course, mainly in the jets and towers, but some fans make it sound like he was walking around ripping their entrails out with his bare hands. He had some slightly cold-blooded kills for sure, mainly Officer Black and Tambourine while they were retreating, but the latter was at least justified by Goku being monumentally pissed off at the Demon Clan for the entire arc. His other significant killshots are often acquitted somewhat by the victims miraculously surviving (Taopaipai, Freeza) or being reincarnated (Piccolo, Buu).

So in conclusion, Goku's attitude to killing didn't change that much, he just seemed to become a bit more serious and self-aware about it as he matured into adulthood. As you said though, there's zero evidence that Kami played a hand in this at all.

[UltraInstinctRorikon]

I know. That’s why I called it a misconception.

Hmm odd. Thought I typed more than that.

What I was going to say was - As I said in that other thread you linked, I don't think Goku's view on killing ever really changed. The way that scene that comes across to me is that Goku is taking offence because Vegeta is literally beating a man while he is down. Recoome wasn't even a threat at that point.

My guess is just some random fan on the internet said it and caught on. Like the memes about Toriyama forgetting Lunch or wanting to end the series with the Freeza saga.

I also think there's the fact that, Toei, as they were wont to do in the original anime run, greatly exaggerated Goku's merciful side in the movies. He gave that "I don't want to hurt you, so surrender!" spiel in like 5 straight movies.

But when he originally did it with Jeice and Burter it was less "I don't want to hurt you" and more "I will fuck you up."

Honestly the intent is still there from looking at the manga. He doesn't actually want to hurt anyone he just does so cause they won't stop.

[Yuli Ban]

I myself believed this, especially back when I was still of the "Hardcore Toonami DeeBeeZee" persuasion that believed Son Goku to be Kung Fu Space Jesus.

It has to be stressed that a lot of this comes down to the dub whitewashing his morality, a morality already whitewashed by Toei. Goku was made out to be merciful, letting Vegeta go out of a sense of mercy, letting the Ginyus go because they had been defeated and deserved a second chance to do good and help others, trying to let Freeza go to teach him mercy and show him the error of his ways, and so on. Culminating in the very Christlike "I am the hope of the universe" speech. There's a reason why I call FUNi Goku "Kung Fu Space Jesus." The implication amongst those who watched Dragon Ball was that Kami taught Goku the value of life, mercy, and the basic goodness in others that no amount of evil could totally corrupt, and it wasn't until he met the utterly irredeemable tyrant Frieza that he finally realized that there are indeed some people too evil to show mercy towards.

In truth, Son Goku from the start was never one to kill people he deemed innocent or incapable of fighting back unless they proved themselves to still be dangerous, but he also wasn't not going to kill a deadly opponent if the opportunity presented itself. But because many people of my generation didn't watch Dragon Ball with the same zeal that we watched DBZ, a lot of this went over our heads and we just assumed "Oh, so he killed people willy nilly back then but was Christlike in his mercy when he grew up" and the shift seemed to be his training with Kami. It just happened that his body count stopped racking up after meeting with Kami, but truth be told a lot of that was just circumstance. He just happened to keep letting various characters go for a while only to be followed by a string of events where he never even got the chance to pull the same stunt.

What Goku has is a typical martial artist's sense of honor of not killing a defenseless opponent. Plus his battle lust leads to him wanting to defeat opponents fairly. At the peripheral, what's fair and unfair can seem fuzzy. When he crushed Piccolo's stomach and left him too winded to get up only to blast him with a Kamehameha, I can see how some could construe that as an unfair potshot, but he didn't have intent to kill at that point. Compare that to him crushing Nappa's spine and tossing him down only to blast him with a Kamehameha— he'd clearly be trying to do him in then because Nappa was unable to even move.

Sometimes, he was just being smart. He didn't kill Piccolo Jr because his life force was tied to Kami's, and losing him would cause the dragon balls to vanish. That Piccolo was also a worthy opponent was the cherry on top. Or maybe vice versa— he let Piccolo go because he was a worthy opponent, and that this had practical benefits for Kami's life and the dragon balls was the cherry on top.

Other times, he used this fairness against himself. Vegeta completely defeated him and he wanted to have a second go. If he or Vegeta died fairly in that rematch, that would've been one thing. But for him to have been defeated and then for Vegeta to be pushed too far to the point he couldn't fight either only to be slain by Krillin was too against his Saiyan nature. Think of two proud boxers going at it, and then the red guy breaks the blue guy's leg with an illegal sweep, only to get his neck broken by someone else. Their fight hadn't concluded properly. The blue guy tells the red guy to go patch himself up, and then they'll meet up again and finish their fight. That's basically what happened; just with more ki blasts, earth-shaking powers, and giant monkeys.

The Ginyus are probably the closest he had come to genuine mercy just because they genuinely could not fight back at that point but were still a threat regardless, but Freeza was him breaking his spirit in an attempt to humiliate him. To someone life Freeza, living with the humiliation of being beaten and humiliated by that which he feared for so long and then considered too unimportant to even finish off was a fate worse than death, and Goku didn't even care anyway. That's what hurt Freeza and even Vegeta— Goku wasn't some royal high-born Saiyan who lusted for revenge. He was a literal goon, a faceless generic mook. Goku was basically the Saiyan version of Appule or Raspberry except even less important and even more of an uncultured hick to boot. And yet he turned out to be the legendary Super Saiyan. The literal sole Saiyan Freeza hadn't accounted for and the last one alive was the one he feared the most... and yet he didn't even care. Goku didn't give a shit about Saiyans or him beyond beating him up for killing a bunch of innocents. And then Freeza was pushed past his limits and broke down in a pile of shattered hubris, only to be told by this golden monkey peasant that he was too pathetic and unimportant to finish off, not out of a sense of his own godlike arrogance but out of an an earnest "you're not all you're cracked up to be" sense of boredom and disgust. Just OUCH. Blasting Freeza at that point made no difference, even if realistically Freeza was absolutely going to bee-line to Earth and fantasize about crucifying Goku on a cross made out of his still-breathing family and friends' broken bodies. For all intents and purposes, Freeza was just like Taopaipai before him— disgraced and irrelevant. Heck, he even came back as a cyborg.

After that, he didn't get many chances to show instances of mercy. He was bodied by 19 and the heart virus, and he actively told Gohan to kill Cell. He didn't want to kill Vegeta because he knew this demon-possessed outburst was based on bullshit, and he obviously killed Boo even if he wished he'd be reincarnated as someone better. GT is irrelevant but to be fair, he does kill every major villain himself in that series as well as various lesser henchmen (ironically, though, Bebi and Super 17 are two characters that probably could have been convinced by Goku's offer of mercy, the former as a way of making him realize the current generation of Saiyans aren't like the ones that killed his people and the latter because it's 17, who if it wasn't the Goku Show, could've had a decent showing in the Shadow Dragons arc ). Super doubled down on failing to give Goku any chances to kill sans Freeza. I always heard that this was because Freeza taught him that some people can't be redeemed, but looking back at it, it just happened that Goku's primary encounters for a while faced circumstances that made him uncomfortable with killing them.

If things went differently, Bulma would've been killed by him if she had not surrendered. Otherwise Goku would've been just told her to scram and never come back. If Bulma succeeded in knocking him out but tried getting away, Goku would've just chased after her to finish the fight on better terms. Everything that followed is basically Goku doing that over and over again.

Another issue is that Goku's highest body count comes from henchmen. Most of the people he killed were RRA goons, random monsters, Piccolo Daimao's children. He didn't get the chance to fight/kill any of Freeza's less notable henchmen or Babidi's henchmen. Compare that to, say, the movies. He didn't get a good chance to fight any goons after Slug to mimic his inability to face weak henchmen in the series, but for the movies before that, he had no qualms about killing mooks.

TLDR: I believed this myself once upon a time, but the cold fact is that Goku underwent a bout of pseudo-mercy towards his opponents because of varying circumstances. He as a fighter is uncomfortable with killing opponents who have been defeated and pose little immediate threat but he has no qualms about killing them in battle directly; this has been his character from the start. The only time he really showed mercy without expectation of a better fight or for practical reasons was against the Ginyu Force. The only time he seemed particularly merciful in a way a dub could exploit was the final slice of Dragon Ball and the first third of Dragon Ball Z. As it happened, this third of DBZ is the one most Americans are familiar with and is the most ingrained in our popular consciousness for the series, so this is the version of Goku most people here in the Anglo-American world know best even within the confines of Dragon Ball Z.

[Desassina]

Character development shifts happen quite often in the series to move the plot forward. The anime doesn't always get the author's intent right and gives off the message that Goku is a righteous hero.





Freeza deserved to be killed after all that he did to his friends, since that was the fate of whom Krillin was killed by in Piccolo Daimao's arc, and because Goku's own life was threatened upon showing Freeza some mercy. He wasn't trained to kill Piccolo, since that would mean Kami's death as well, but to fight and to win a tournament where killing is not allowed, so he was playing by the rules and just happened to defeat his opponent, who respected his victory with lasting bitterness.

[DBZAOTA482]

Kami didn't teach Goku to value of life. He merely taught him discipline.